Real world performance of Hartley TS16

[skaraborgcraft]

Hi all,

I have read most of what i can find on-line about the Hartley TS16. When i read the quote "planes at 12-14 knots on a reach/run,and will start planing in 15 knots windspeed" that perked my interest enough to order plans.

I would like to hear from anyone that has ACTUALLY sailed or crewed on a TS16, and can verify the above quote,or at least give me some solid data regarding performance under different conditions and loadings. I would be very interested to hear how easy she is to capsize,and more importantly,how the boat was to get upright again.

Also,just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I have heard that the TS 18 does not sail aswell as the TS16......but if anyone has got their TS 18 planing on a regular basis,id like to hear about that too! Cheers.

[Larks]

I have a TS16 and although she moves along quite nicely in the slightest of breezes I'd be surprised if mine would plane at 14 knots, as she's an older one (@1964) and has been built quite heavily - hence why she's lasted so well so long - 10 knots is about what I'd get from her readily enough, but I really wouldn't put it past a new one to plane along at 14 knots.

They are a particularly stable hull, I'd be very surprised if anyone has actually managed to capsize one, I've certainly never ever come close. Mind you though, anything is possible if you get caught out and don't know what to do.

One thing is certain, I don't think you'll find anyone who has ever owned a TS16 who will say anything derogatory about them, they are a very much loved little boat.

Here are a couple of sites that may be useful to you:

http://www.ts16sa.yachting.org.au/de...asp?Page=37320
http://dsn.au.com/Gallery/Gallery.ph...e-00145edc1a86

[skaraborgcraft]

Haj Larks,

Thanks for the response.....i read all your stuff on all the work you done on your TS16...nice job! Yeah,they certainly seem to be well loved,and there must be good reason. Im not surprised they are tough boats seeing the construction,very old school, but thats how i started building....i much prefer the hull to stand on its own rather than requiring the internal fit out to hold it all together. Having said that,she could be built lighter. Im not looking to build to class specs. Already been through those links .but appriciated anyway. Interesting to hear you say shes very hard to capsize. I know she has beam stability, and im guessing thats why she is so stiff....a 120lb centre plate is not much really....but certainly seems adequate. Have you ever seen a 16 with a fin keel? Maybe that was just an option on the 18 and 21?
Colin Brookes is the dealer in UK for Hartley stuff....but he doesnt seem to communicate....

Is your mast a straight section alloy tube? Were they ever made from wood? There dosnt seem to be a TS association in the UK,as it would be nice to talk to an owner. Cheers

[JimConlin]

Designers' published weight or displacement figures are often imprecise.
The published displacement for the Hartley TS16 is 800 lbs. I'd be surprised if that were the weight of boat in sailing kit with people and stores aboard.
For this design, what is realistic for:
- an empty weight
- with gear and ready to add people and stores.

[Larks]

Haj Larks,

Thanks for the response.....i read all your stuff on all the work you done on your TS16...nice job! Yeah,they certainly seem to be well loved,and there must be good reason. Im not surprised they are tough boats seeing the construction,very old school, but thats how i started building....i much prefer the hull to stand on its own rather than requiring the internal fit out to hold it all together. Having said that,she could be built lighter. Im not looking to build to class specs. Already been through those links .but appriciated anyway. Interesting to hear you say shes very hard to capsize. I know she has beam stability, and im guessing thats why she is so stiff....a 120lb centre plate is not much really....but certainly seems adequate. Have you ever seen a 16 with a fin keel? Maybe that was just an option on the 18 and 21?
Colin Brookes is the dealer in UK for Hartley stuff....but he doesnt seem to communicate....

Is your mast a straight section alloy tube? Were they ever made from wood? There dosnt seem to be a TS association in the UK,as it would be nice to talk to an owner. Cheers

Mine is an aluminium mast and it is reasonably easy to raise and manoeuver alone, I can't see a problem with a timber one other than it may be a little heavier and harder to deal with alone. I've not seen a fin keeled TS16, that's not to say they don't exist but it'd kind of make a mess of the TS part of TS16 (ie it wouldn't be so simple to trailer) - I have seen one with fixed twin bilge keels - good for beaching I guess but have no idea how it performed or again how difficult it might have been to get back on to a trailer, certainly not my preference for a TS16.

[skaraborgcraft]

Larks, im with you on that one,i have had bilge keel boats and they are ok,but not really for on and off trailering,just good for drying moorings and keeping the bottom of the hull off the bottom.

Jim....im assuming you think the boat weighs far more than that? Im more interested if it performs as i have read...if she performs that well at 1500lbs then thats good,but im guessing the lighter the better,at least in performance in lighter winds. Dont often lack for wind here so maybe not a big issue. Having seen a few videos of the boat planing,then maybe thats all i need to know, that she will actually splane,but it will depend on weight and wind speed as to when she will start to plane, obviously the lighter she is,the sooner she will plane. Anybody ever built one on ply bulkheads and stitch and tape?

[JimConlin]

...

Jim....im assuming you think the boat weighs far more than that? Im more interested if it performs as i have read...if she performs that well at 1500lbs then thats good,but im guessing the lighter the better,at least in performance in lighter winds. Dont often lack for wind here so maybe not a big issue. Having seen a few videos of the boat planing,then maybe thats all i need to know, that she will actually splane,but it will depend on weight and wind speed as to when she will start to plane, obviously the lighter she is,the sooner she will plane. Anybody ever built one on ply bulkheads and stitch and tape?

If one had reliable data on the weight of a boat, there are useful design metrics that would offer insight into the boat's probable performance. That's why the displacement number is important.

I have no knowledge of the designer or his designs that lead me to question the published 'displacement' figure any more than I would for another boat or designer. Displacement or weight figures for small boats are seldom explicit about what they really are- empty, equipped or loaded.

[skaraborgcraft]

Jim ....fair comment. I have seen figures from 380-420kg. The actual displacement is not really the question, as long as she sails, planes as suggested,then it would be a worthwhile build. What i dont want to do is build a boat that wont do as i have led to believe. Larks has already posted that she will plane,granted as he admits she is a heavily built boat,so maybe she wont do 14 knots. Point is this would be purely a weekend boat,and over-loading would not be an issue,she can be kept light if that is what is needed to keep the performance sharp,though i have read in strong wind,heavy crews can keep the boat planing more easily. Perhaps that answered my question. Always nice to get back fisrt hand experience though. Cheers

[bucheron]

I have sailed probably half-a-dozen Hartley TS16s of various build quality and states of tuning, and I would say it has a shape suitable for planing, but is heavy, therefore it is difficult to start it planing and keep it planing.

A heavier crew would find it hard to start planing but probably a little easier to maintain planing in strong winds.

In my area there are enthusiasts who are skilled sailors but unwilling to spend a huge amount of money on their sport, therefore they are unlikely to push their boats too hard because damage is expensive in terms of time as well as money.

There is at least one boat building here in Brisbane, Australia, using stitch and glue. One factor against this approach is that the boat therefore will not comply with the measurement and building rules of the class association. It will not be able to take part in class competition. The sail plan is also fixed, so a more modern shape is not allowed.

It is IMO a paradox that fibreglass boats are allowed. These are ballasted to the class weight.

[skaraborgcraft]

Haj Buchie,

Thanks for reply..there is no TS16 up here in Sweden as far as i know. Im not to bothered about class rules or resale value if building slightly different from plan. I want a nice simple boat that will have good performance,and i believe this hull shape will give me that. I like the simple rig too,cheap to set up,i would leave that as is. Not so keen on the boxy cabin though, but many Hartley boats have been changed beyond recognition by home builders,and not many,for the better. To each their own. Cheers

[skaraborgcraft]

Buchie......i forgot....ever flipped one over??

[JimConlin]

Jim ....fair comment. I have seen figures from 380-420kg. ... Cheers

As I said, Displacement or weight figures for small boats are seldom explicit about what they really are- empty, equipped or loaded. What weighs 380-420 kg?

[m2c1Iw]

Perhaps consider this design before you take the plunge on the TS16, modern design with support.

http://www.wallerdesign.com.au/ts540.html

[JimJ]

but if anyone has got their TS 18 planing on a regular basis

No.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...18-Restoration

[bucheron]

Buchie......i forgot....ever flipped one over??

No, I have been close. Once when I was pretty inexperienced on the type, the boat was thrown over by an unexpected gust, I was the crew. I found myself momentarily standing on the cockpit wall, before finding something to grab. Witnesses told us the top of the mast went within a metre of the water. The boat recovered. Neither of us was in a position to release sheets and the rudder would have been way out of the water.

I would have to say that the TS16 is very, very difficult to invert from wind action and/or bad sailing.

It always seems to recover by itself by rounding up if pressed too hard or overcome by a gust, regardless of whatever the helmsman does. If an uncontrolled gybe occurs in strong wind, spars may be broken but the boat seems to recover itself to an upright position. Big waves might turn it over but that can happen to anything.

As far as personal safety is concerned, the danger when heeling a long way is that of falling from the rail onto the other side of the boat and especially onto a wire shroud.

[skaraborgcraft]

Cheers Buchie.....they must be very stable,Larks gave me the same impression that they were hard to flip...what is more interesting and positive is that if pushed too hard,she will just lose grip,not a bad thing.

M2c yeah saw the waller....didnt like it. Thanks for posting.

Jim...the boat is listed as weighing 380 to 400kg. I have heard enough already,i dont think theres much else out there to compete (ok..theres LOTS out there) , but shes a simple build and simple rig. 6000 Aussies cant be wrong!

[skaraborgcraft]

HS...thanks! thats confirmation i was looking for. As for capsize,im not one these days to push to the edge,and i have heard you gotta try hard too,so no worries. Inversion sounds like something best to avoid. Cheers

[bucheron]

I would not call the boat stable in planing conditions. A lot of work and attention is needed to keep a TS16 sailing right.

If it does heel severely, lose grip and recover, it will have lost all speed, and be left wallowing in the water with sails flogging and lines tangling. It has to be got sailing again.

Attention and quick reaction is needed, dumping power from the mainsail to keep it upright and under steering control. That is why I doubt it could be comfortable below decks in such a boat at high speed in big seas.

I would try it for a short time, in somebody else's boat.

As for inversion, I agree with HM, the boat is not going to come back without assistance, if the mast remains in place with the sails set. Even the inverted racers with huge uranium bulbs remained inverted in the southern ocean because the rig stops the boat from coming back.

Must be some gung-ho racers in Melbourne!

[skaraborgcraft]

wouldnt expect otherwise given the amount of whats NOT under the hull. Shes certainly not a "hands off tiller" kind of boat when pushing on. Surprising she would be hard to right with such a short rig. mmmmmmm. Cheers

[RFNK]

It is certainly possible to capsize a TS 16. My father and brother managed it on ours many years ago in Sydney Harbour (about 1970). My father was a very conservative sailor but claims that on that day they were hit by the notorious `southerly buster' (a Sydney institution in summer) and the wake from a ferry at the same time. The centreboard slammed back into the case and smashed the top cover. Recovery was impossible so they had to be towed to shore where they managed to get it on its side and bail out. After that, Dad installed a heavier centreboard which he claimed would prevent any further capsize - of course it also killed the boat's performance - it was just the kind of annoying thing he used to do! Anyway, at the time we were also told of a championship TS16 event on Lake Macquarie (about 100km north of Sydney) in which the whole TS 16 fleet was flattened by a southerly buster and many had to be rescued. I remember this well as it was Dad's evidence in his case for ruining our TS 16. It's a long time since I've sailed a TS 16 but I think I'd have to say that it's quite possible to capsize a TS 16 on flat water, even though quite difficult! and that it would be a very difficult, if not impossible, boat to right. I think they're a truly great boat. Rick

[skaraborgcraft]

Cheers for that insight Rick,sort of thing i like to hear. I understand she is just a big dinghy and needs to be sailed like one...sheet in hand. Even keel boats can be knocked flat by pressure waves.....difference being they pop back up. Where i sail getting inverted would be a problem unless it could easily bre righted...and this is something that seems to be a consistent reply that it is difficult. Being towed ashore is not an option. How do you think she would recover if she had the same weight of the centreplate, but in a bulb on the end of a lifting keel? Just a thought..... I was looking at an old Joe Dobler Q17.....i like the keel concept,but she doesnt look as though she will get up and plane. Any reasons you think that kind of keel on the Hartley would kill its performance(hydrodynamically shaped bulb)?

[RFNK]

Oh, I'm exaggerating a bit when I say the heavier centreboard killed the performance. We weren't racing this boat so really the difference probably wasn't all that significant with the heavier board. I don't know anything much about bulbs on keels but the TS 16 has a swing-style centreboard rather than one that lifts up vertically so I can't see how the bulb would work. If you plan to sail in areas where you really need a boat that's capable for self-rescue, I think I'd probably take the advice in one of the posts above and look at other boats. You'll be interested in this discussion - they're Kiwis so of course they're all a bit mad but read on .... http://dsn.au.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=175 Rick

[skaraborgcraft]

Cheers Rick....its always an option to bild a different keel system....i believe the larger Hartleys had the option of bilge and fin keels, i dont see why a lifting(vertical) bulb keel couldnt be made,the downside would be a bulb hanging off the bottom which would make getting on/off trailer just a little more difficult than with the centreboard......but thats not an issue as its just done twice a year.

I got family in NZ....no offense taken...lol

[skaraborgcraft]

Thats a good link Rick..... i dont think i would bother having a boat that would need having a rescue boat on watch if the wind is over 15knots.....i think that is one cautious person. Obviously experience with the boat and finding the comfortable limit is whats needed,as suggested by one poster. A bouyant mast is a good idea,but not a masthead float...URGHHH.....maybe she would just be better with 100kg or so ballast either side of the centre case....i did note that 150kg was suggested in the 18, in front of the case, apparently to get the stern out for better planing. Cheers

[Larks]

I stand corrected re the capsizing.......I've been caught out on Darwin harbour quite a few times on various boats, including my TS16, and have been knocked flat a few times when racing (though that doesn't include my 16 which I haven't raced - I've always thought her just too old and heavy to bother - plus I have lived by the philosophy of race on OPB's .... it's cheaper.....) I'm certainly more of a conservative sailor when not racing so when I'm caught out on the 16 I guess I've been ready for it and not had to put myself in a position to get knocked down, I've certaily never felt threatened in the 16 in the face of a front coming through. Possibly false security reading the above???

[skaraborgcraft]

self righting ballasted keelboats means you can take chances you may not take in something like the TS16. Obviously racers take risks.....but im not really interested in racing.

[Paul G.]

I think you could do better than a hartley, had a look at welsfords sweet pea?

[skaraborgcraft]

yes....nice....but how is that an improvement?

[bucheron]

yes....nice....but how is that an improvement?

The rig stands out to me. With better rig and foils I believe the TS16 could probably sail much better.

When I say better I mean less of that hard work for the crew, and safety because a modern flexible mast and roached sail can spill wind automatically to avoid a capsize. Better foils would give better lift. As a bonus it might even be a bit faster, though it's fast already.

The association has approved a rudder which is a huge improvement over the original, all competitive TS16s now have it.

A better keel would be much harder to install in an existing boat.

The fin keels and twin keels on the original designs were horrible looking things even by the standards of the 1950s, no wonder almost none were built.

I notice SweetPea has a TS16-like transom much wider than JW's usual style.

This leads me to a thought. A mizzenmast on a wide transom would go well with twin rudders.

And possibly a boat could be set up to use two rigs, modern sloop for sports use, and gaff yawl for cruising.

[skaraborgcraft]

HS..... if you put a lifting bulb keel, better aspect rudder on the same hull...surely thats an improvement.

I agree with Buchie that it can be improved,though twin rudders and a mizzen to me just complicates the equation rather than make it simple. I like the short rig as is,its easily man handled,one thing i did notice in all the pictures i have seen on the web of a TS16 is NO reef points in the main.....

As originally posted...i like the hull and its performance potential. The rest of it is just details.....cabin house can be dispensed with if not needed and then you have a huge open cockpit,keeping a long foredeck and side decks. As already mentioned,keels and foils can be improved,and also mast/s if wanted. Its a case of shes almost right...but needs a little tweaking.

Martens SB18 is probably the modern equivilent with no house,and so maybe Johns Sweet Pea,is an alternative,but from the photos i have seen...shes missing something.... Cheers

[Paul G.]

Easier to build than a Hartley, faster, roomier for the same kind of boat.

[skaraborgcraft]

Hans...interesting comment about lee helm on a reduced mainsail. As said,i have no need to stick to any class rules, so reefs in the main or different rudder and foils is not an issue. She still sound like a good hull option....

[keyhavenpotterer]

There is a thread running just now on the Australian Wooden Boat Forum on building a new TS16 which may be worth having a look over

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f32/ne...ey-ts16-95466/

[skaraborgcraft]

cheers for the heads up KHP....but im ahead you.....must be the time difference....

[Phil Y]

I had an older heavy one, a bit like larks. I got the tip of the mast in the water once but she popped back up. I have seen an inverted one towed to shore. I think they'd be very hard for the crew to right unasisted as they are very wide and flat. But if you take a little care inversion is extremely unliklely, they are a very seakindly boat, but also as others have said quite sprightly and good fun to sail as well.