Thanks for the explanation of the lap joint at the transom. Thats pretty much what I thought you had done but I was having trouble seeing well from the pics you have posted. Once again love your work. Keep it up and always more pictures please.
Thanks for the explanation of the lap joint at the transom. Thats pretty much what I thought you had done but I was having trouble seeing well from the pics you have posted. Once again love your work. Keep it up and always more pictures please.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb trees it will think it is stupid its whole life.
If we are in a race I think Mr. Jardine may have the upper hand due to both size and condition of his project. I will do my best to keep things interesting. To answer the rib question, the ribs run from the sheer, to the furthest opposite engine stringer. This has the effect of doubled ribs throughout the bottom and single on the sides of the hull. This also has a big benefit of making them easier to replace, I hope to be able to do them all in one piece with out having to put them in in sections with scarph joints like I had to do on my 24' Lyman where the ribs run from sheer to sheer in one piece.
Last edited by mucrewbtp; 10-26-2011 at 08:24 PM.
Here are some pictures detailing the process of cutting the plank gains in the aft portions of the planks.
The previous plank, already on the boat, this is the plank we will be mating to.
After the new plank is cut out with the skilsaw and fine tuned with a low angle block plane, the width of the lap is marked out along the inside bottom edge, in this case the lap is 1"
Old plank and new plank are clamped together in the same orientation, I use a set of dividers to transfer the edge thickness every couple of inches. I generally do it in every spot where I can find a good non damaged factory edge. Afterwards I connect the ticks with a straight edge. This will be the guide line for how much to bevel the lap. All along the plank the bevel begins at the 1" line for the top of the lap joint and ends at this line.
Plank after having the gains cut using a low angle block plane. I have tried using a long jack plane as well but I had the most success using the block plane held askew to the plank so I could use the heel end as sort of a lever to fine tune the bevel.
Another view, it helps to use the glue lines in the plywood to gauge if you have a nice constantly increasing bevel to the plank.
The desired effect, the planks blend into one thickness at the transom.
Last edited by mucrewbtp; 10-26-2011 at 08:26 PM.
Today I was able to get the sheer plank cut and fit and then removed some interior cockpit trim to asess the extent to which I will have to rebuild the deck framing. Due both to some issues caused by rusted fasteners, and some shortcuts taken in the building process, I will be replacing 8' of the sheer clamp and cockpit carlin. the originals had butt joints in them, I will be putting them back with a proper scarph joint.
Deck framing after teak cockpit coaming has been removed. You can see the shoddy butt joint in the cockpit carlin, the block at the bottom was added by me. This piece used the teak cockpit coaming to join the two pieces.
Another view of the same, will be milling some lumber to replace the carlin tomorrow.
The cockpit carlin and sheer clamp Are now cut and fit in place. I still need to plane the matching bevel onto the sheer clamp, after that both pieces will get a big helping of CPES before being permanently attached to the hull.
Scarph joint, this will have some permanent fasteners in it as well.
The original cockpit carlin was just butted to the transom with no clear means of support, I chose to notch this one into the transom framing. Now I just have to hope that the NOS transom that is coming in a few weeks was built off the same jig. I will also devise some means of tying the sheer clamp in to the transom better once the new transom is installed.
An improvement over the original even before the dry rot set in.
Here is a SeaHawk for sale. The one from the calendar. I am sure you have seen it.
I saw that one, nice boat. I have been trying to help find a good buyer for it. It is a great boat, but for that price there is a risk of someone buying it just because its big and cheap. Then it ends up like mine...
I hope it goes to a good home, I would like to try and keep in touch with the new buyer of it. I do not regret my project boat, if I didnt have a boat to work on I would be forced to take up golf. Im a terrible golfer, and its just no fun in the snow. If anybody on the forum would be interested in "Teresita" I have some more pictures of it I could post.
Please post some more photos of it. How is it's condition? It looks great but what is under the skin?
Here are some pictures of Teresita that I got from the owner last year as a reference for my boat.
She is a good looking boat, I will be finishing my cabin sides bright as well, sorry for the low resolution, this is the picture from the sales ad:
This boat has factory teak decks.
This one also has teak cockpit decking;
More pictures to follow.
Chrysler 383's and what I believe is an Onan generator.
Aft bilges, this is the worst area in my boat, this one looks pretty good here.
Teak cabin sole
Definitely a good looking boat, if only I had a bigger shop...
A very nice boat!! .... and that's a helluva price really...
It is a very good price, I cant imagine it will last very long.
Coming along on the old gal Mike, nice work.
The Sea Hawk for sale is nice, good price too if it's anywhere close to the shape it appears. The lapstrake hulls are about as sweet as it gets for the Lake Erie island area chop. I favor the Chris Crafts only because they are a a little more unique in our area. Damn tempting that one, but I fear the wife would kill me if I put more oars in the water. 35' is tight for my shop too and I can't handle too much over an 11' beam.
Just out of curiosity mind you, what is the beam on the 35 Sea Hawks.
I believe it is just the camera angle. Those are the original engines, I can't imagine why one would have been moved, especially since it would throw off the whole driveline. The "ghost" you see is a wedge or spacer under the engine mount. My engines which are Chris Craft 350q's, had similar wedges for fine adjustment but they are cast iron instead of wood.
The beam on my boat is 12' 3"
Saws work on doors too...
Do the engine care how they are mounted in relation to the frames? Since the frames are staggered about an inch, it's possible the engines could be staggered as well. Yes, I know that particular horse has left the barn already, but it's just a general thought...
Thanks for the great thread.
I've been working on enclosing the framework around the boat, using firring and 1 /2" bendable metal conduit. This provided a suitable working area around the hull and bridge.
What is the name of the board witch the shaft passes through? At this point I placed a support before the chine. The paint adjoining the plank nearest this board seems to be opening a bit. Should I put more support nearer to the transom?
I'll put some photos up on facebook to show the area.
If you ever fly into Hillsgrove Airport, the boats walking distance is 20 minutes, 17 Daboll.
Relation of the engines to ribs shouldnt matter, I took the picture into photoshop and drew some paralell lines. A line drawn across the top edge of the rectangular shroud on the generator is paralell to a line drawn between the mounting flange of both transmissions. I am pretty sure the appearent mis-alignment is due to the perspective of the camera.
I am not sure the exact name of the board you are referring to, I would call it the shaft log... I looked at a few of the pictures on your facebook, it looks to me like it is reasonably well supported. I wouldnt worry too much about gaps in paint, if you really want to determine the condition of your hull your first step is to remove all of the interior floor boards to inspect the bilges. you will first want to vacuum out all leaves and debris that you can get out with a shop vac. Then use a hack saw blade to remove any debris that is trapped in the triangular gaps formed between the ribs and planking. While you are at it you can use some soapy water and a brush to clean the bilge while youre down there. The water will pool in areas where those triangular passages are dammed up and will help you to identify areas that are clogged. Mixtures of old engine oil, leaves, paint chips etc form a tary substance that can clog these areas pretty well and can lead to small patches of rot.
I wouldnt worry about paint until you have addressed the hull. When you do get to paint and finishes, I would be careful about stripping the hull. Depending on the year, your boat has either standard fir marine plywood, or a phoenellic film faced plywood. If it is the film faced variety, you are in luck as long as a previous owner has not sanded through it. The film helps to maintan a smooth, check free paint job. I would suggest trying a chemical stripper or heat gun in a small area to see what removes the paint best without damaging the film face. If your boat does not have the faced plywood, I would strip it down to bare wood using a chemical stripper. After it is stripped and dried I would apply a good amount of CPES on the planking BEFORE sanding. Even after the CPES is cured, I would apply a high build primer before sanding. If you sand bare fir plywood, all you will do is sand out the soft grain while burnishing the hard grain leaving a very wavy uneven surface. A previous owner sanded the hull of my 24' Lyman and it took about 5 or 6 coats of high build primer and 3 coats of paint to even approach a smooth finish and it is still not completely flat. Shoot me a Facebook message when you get some more pictures of your boat up and I will take a look at what youre working with.
I'm like a seventeen year old youth, with a new girlfriend.
The deck area has an indoor outdoor carpet glued to the face. I'll start removing this tonight, along with labeling the metal framing. I'm assuming the deck is secured with screws.
Onward a little slower.
Thanks very much on your answer concerning the engine alignment. It was (to me), an interesting question and an excellent answer.
Fully concur (with experience, unfortunately), on the treatment of plywood planking. The face layer of planking on my CC was giving up in hand sized pieces, taking many layers of bottom paint with it. I had no choice but to sand the face layer. I hired a company to soda blast as the first assault. It was fortunate that the crew boss was sympathetic to wooden hulls. The soda removed the paint, and handily scoured out the lignite, leaving the cellulite (and a very corrugated surface) behind. This in spite on the fact that he achieved only about 60% paint removal, as he attempted to not to go too far into the planking.
Refurbishing the planking took four coats of CPES, 3 coats of straight epoxy, a light sand, a heavy layer of fairing compound, and lots more sanding. I've yet to finish the fairing, but it's slowly coming along. After that will be barrier and bottom paint. I had no idea that Lymans had a phoenellic film coating on their planks. I wish mine had, but if it existed once it was certainly gone by the time I bought the boat.
Thanks again for the great thread!
I was out at the shop today, and I can say that the port side is starting to become much more boat shaped. I have replaced the aft portions of the cockpit carlin and sheer clamp along with adding new 3/4" ply sub decking. I have also gotten all of the new planking for this section fit and screwed to the ribs. I have not glued any scarph joints or adhesed anything with 5200 yet. I am leaving everything mechanically fastened only until the new transom is put in to allow for final fitting. At the end of the day I turned my attention to the other side of the aft deck. Overall the decking and planking seems to be in slightly better condition on the starboard side. However I will still be replacing the subdeck and will be replacing the butt joints in the cockpit carlin and sheer clamp with proper scarph joints. I will not need to replace nearly as much sheer plank, about 4' as opposed to the 8' on the other side. It remains to be seen how much of the other hull planking on this side will need replacement. It was a nice feeling to leave the shop today with a portion of the boat looking quite a lot like a boat instead of a construction project.
Final fitting of the subdeck, clamped in place.
Hull planking screwed to the framing before securing the sub-deck, machine screws and PM nuts still to be installed, 2 between each set of ribs.
Sub-deck screwed in place with new #12 Bronze screws. I have decided to re-fasten the boat while I am at it. Any fastener I remove is being replaced with brand new silicon bronze. The original bronze screws were a rolled thread bronze which are no longer available. It is kind of an odd size and of dubious quality so I guess ill think of something to cast out of the 50+ pounds of scrap bronze ill probably have by the time the project is over.
Looking much more boat-like, This side of the hull is very solid now and I still have ribs, rub rail, and transom left to replace.
Starboard side aft deck, starting in much better shape than the other side. Thankfully no epoxy patches here.
1/2" top layer beginning to be removed. new deck will have the 3/4" sub-deck with a minimum of 1/2" teak on top. I will probably lay down 9/16" teak to allow for a 1/2" or more after sanding.
Sub decking and transom framing is in much better condition on this side. It will serve as a good reference when finishing the deck and transom framing.
Same corner, beneath the sub-decking...
Top decking removed for and 8' section.
First section of sub-deck removed, more to follow.
It's looking good.IS that OSB I see under the side deck?That stuff will fall apart if ya sneeze at it.Glad to see that is going away.
When peeing over the side,remember,one hand for you,and one hand for the ship.
Proud Member Of The Elite LPBC.
Lyman was cutting a few corners in the 70's but not by that much. It kind of looks like OSB but it is marine ply. The two layers were stuck together with a meandering drizzle of glue and splinters of the top layer of deck were left behind when I pulled it off.
More of the same but on the other side of the boat now. The first 8' of decking was stripped off of the starboard side and the first four planks were stripped back to sound wood. The planking is generally in better condition on this side of the boat, I cut the planking back a little it more than necessary and kept them staggered to allow the old and new to blend together better than a short replacement plank would have allowed. I also discovered that this boat has a longer history of crap epoxy repairs than I once thought. In the aft corner of the cabin sides I found amongst the rot/dust a newer epoxy patch that was very poorly bonded to a much older epoxy patch. I guess epoxy has been used for shoddy wood boat repair for even longer than I had thought.
Deck, sheer plank, and cockpit coaming removed.
First four planks cut back. I had to cut the lowest one back farther than I wanted because it was damaged wile cutting the 5200 sealant between the planks. 30 years old and the stuff is still very reluctant to let go.
Badly deteriorated deck house, when this area is rebuilt I will have to design a way to keep water from collecting here.
This fun bit of goo came out of the rotted area pictured above.
One can see the old and the new crap epoxy jobs not at all bonded together.
New planks and decking will follow.
Last edited by mucrewbtp; 11-12-2011 at 06:28 PM.
I have it on good authority that "Teresita" the other Sea Hawk mentioned above has recently sold. Interestingly, it has sold to someone whom is familiar with this forum, and this particular thread. If the new owner of Teresita happens across this message please PM or email me at email@example.com my shop is on Catawba and I would love to come take a look at Teresita when you get her back in the area.
Are you certain that you will need to redesign the deckhouse to guide water? As a surveyor pointed out on my CC, that area is usually designed with a slope to move water outboard, but over the (many) years, the beams warp a little as the weight of the house (and flying bridge), sinks it, and what was once a slope down to the gunnel becomes a slope down to the house. Where I'm going with this is that you want to redesign in the correct area, if you redesign at all. Is a problem that only becomes apparent after 30 years a problem in design or just a maintenance item? Removing the weight of the flybridge may have already "fixed" the design.
Im not really going to re-design the deckhouse itself. The bulk of the rot in the deckhouse is in the aft extension of the cabin sides where the cockpt coaming, deckhouse, and aft support for the hardtop come together. It offers a great opportunity for rainwater to run down the top support and in between the support and the deckhouse. It doesnt appear to have been bedded originally. When it is put back together I will bed pieces well to eliminate a void where water can wick in, and I will also put a small piece of teak trim in the junction between deckhouse and top support where it forms a 90 degree corner, also well bedded to discourage water from working its way in there.
Yup, sounds good. Don't forget to make certain the washboards have a proper angle tho...
I am not familiar with the term "washboards" as it relates to boats, do you mind expanding on that thought.
I may be using an informal term incorrectly, Mike. Around here in the lower Chesapeake Bay, a washboard is horizontal planking that extends from the top of the gunnel, frames, and clamp inboard, thereby strengthening the gunnel, stopping spray from coming aboard, and providing something to walk on. In your above photos, you are referring to it as a side deck. According to Chapelle, the terms washboard and covering board are virtually the same, with covering board being used if the boat is decked... I guess it's all slang anyway. Chapelle also cautions to ensure that the tops of the frames, the sheer strake, and the clamp are beveled to match the crown of the board. The crown assures that water runs outboard and therefore off the boat, rather than settling against the deckhouse, or if there's no deck, the keel...
Last edited by Excalibur; 11-17-2011 at 08:30 AM.
Yes, I'm getting to that age when clerks at stores call me Mr Jardine... make me feel younger and call me Peter. I have a disadvantage... I'm older, and have far too many projects. My parents are moving to a condo, my wife wants some house updates, Vanora the 36 CC has called me back to do her transom and several planks, and the outer keel... arrrgh. This thread is a great tutorial for all of us on several parts of this kind of construction. Definitely an archival keeper for years to come. I check in whenever to this thread whenever there are new posts.
Now I understand, Yes I am making sure to maintain a proper angle to allow any water or spray flow away from the deck house. Thankfully, despite being rotten in pockets here and there the bulk of the boats framework is still fairly strong and the deck hasnt sagged nor has the hull spread which can happen to these older cruisers. Even though it is a lot of work, the deck replacement is pretty streightforward. Remove, pattern, remake, and replace maintaining original bevels and angles.
I dont know if I have ever seen a picture of Vanora, I understand how much of a project the transom will be. I myself am going this Sunday to pick up my new old stock transom. I thought about rebuilding one in place but going with a factory unit will save heaps of time for not all that much more money than what the lumber would cost. I am glad you and others are enjoying this thread and finding it informative. I have learned a lot from this forum and it is good to be able to give back.
Just a short progress update for today. I was up at the shop making arrangements to bring home the new transom. With the remainder of the day I was able to get the oak rub rail cut back and the scarph joints cut on the planking.
Not to hijack your thread, but here is Vanora:
1964 Chris Craft 36' Challenger. Twin 283's plank on batten above the chine, plank over ply below the chine. Transom is plank on batten and frame.
The little sailboat is Dove, the 1946 Atkin Active III
That is a good looking boat. How well does she motivate with the 283s? I have a pair of Chris Craft 350Qs rated at 235 HP in mine. I was considering rebuilding them as 383 strokers for a little extra power and torque. I would imagine my plan of adding a teak deck and larger fuel tanks will increase the weight a bit and I don't want to launch it only to find it has become sluggish and underpowered.
Vanora is 15750 pounds dry, so with gas and water and gear aboard, and watersoaked into her hull, I figure she weighs ten tons. She carries 180 gallons US of fuel, 50 gallons of water, 30 gallons holding. Her original spec'd top speed with 283's was 28 mph. She will actually do about 26, so I figure thats pretty good. At full throttle she uses about 30 gallons an hour, so I don't run the boat that hard. You could rebuild your 350's as 383's but my choice would be to balance the internal assembly, buy decent intake manifolds and modern carbs and you would have a good rig... Your boat would be much much lighter than Vanora, and I would think she is in the 35 knot range or so. Your gas mileage would be better, but your fuel useage will still be monstrous... so if you want to play, you have to pay.
That's a heavy boat. The sales literature for mine lists it as 12,500 lbs dry. After the rebuild it will probably be closer to 13000. Loaded it will probably be in the 15000 lb range. I would be happy cruising at 20 kts, so if you do that well with 283s then I think I will take your advice and just tune up the 350s a bit. I will have to research a new intake for them. The 359Qs had an oddball cooling system with a water cooled intake manifold. If it would still work with a modern manifold I would seriously consider going that route. Thanks for the information.
The problem with comparing other boats to CCs is that CC made so many different kinds, even within a given size. My 38 CC Sea Skiff is built with lapstrake ply planks below the waterline, and solid carvel (not batten) above. Framing was done identical to Mike's boat with bent WO frames running from sheer to opposite stringer, and the opposing frames are offset just enough to allow them to lay side by side through the keel and lower stringer area. They are exactly like Mike's which is why I was so ready to answer his opening question about the framing in this thread. There is no doubt that CC kept a close eye on the competition to the extent of buying the company if the build style was particularly good.
In any case, my CC, very similar in build to Mike's Lyman, is 38' and according to CC, weighs 16,000 pounds dry. With age, 240 gallons of fuel, and added "stuff" I would put her current weight at around 21,000. She is powered with 350hp 454s. Originally she had 327s, but 427 Fords were an option back then. This got me 24.2 knts WOT. With the drying out she's had in the last year on the hard, and with great care to get a smooth bottom, I expect a good bit better next time she's in the water. I don't know that you'll get 20 kts cruise Mike, the max cruise rpm on my 454s is only 3250 rpm (they sure ain't diesels), and that gets me just at 18.6. My bottom, though, was quite rough when I ran her last, and I've got a flybridge, so here's hoping..
Last edited by Excalibur; 11-18-2011 at 09:11 AM.
Thanks for the info on your boat, Ill probably be beating this engine question to death in my head until the day they go in. Other options I have considered would be to find a period correct set of big blocks that were an option in the boat just to keep everything of a similar vintage, or really save my pennies for the next couple years and get a new pair of crusaders. I guess I have to weigh my nostalgia for the original engines vs the increased power of big blocks or 383 rebuild, or the reliability of factory new engines. Decisions decisions...
If I ever get around to planting that money tree behind the shop this would probably be my top choice for a re-power
The 6.0L crusader is lighter than the 350 and produces more power. I would imagine there would be a small amount of fuel savings with fuel injection instead of a standard carburetor. It only comes in standard rotation however so I would have to look into what is involved with reversing the rotation of one of the transmissions.
You mentioned that adding more fuel and a teak deck would make your boat heavier. I'm thinking that whatever you do with the fly bridge (cut it down or remove it), will do much to help your speed, and counterbalance the added weight. Are the current 350Qs closed loop cooled or open? If they are closed loop, I would have a tendency to upgrade the current engines with electronic ignition, and rebuild to stock. Just my $0.02, and worth almost half of that. In short, yeah, what Peter said.
Last edited by Excalibur; 11-18-2011 at 12:05 PM.
I have settled on leaving the bridge off. It really doesnt look that good on the boat and it adds quite a bit of topside weight. The Chris Craft engines are raw water cooled but were always in fresh water. However when I was storing the engines I pulled the plugs and I had water run out of one of the cylinders. I dont know if there is a bad water jacket or if the water just ran in from the exhaust manifold when the engines were lifted for removal. I do know that the engine is not siezed. I can turn it over by hand with no trouble. I wont really know what condition they are in until I pull one apart.
The real issues with the old engines is that they were heavier... less power for weight than modern power. The fuel injection versus carburetion is a maintenance issue really... You can get some great results with carburetors and traditional intake manifolds... especially on small block chevy. Modern fuel injected engines with electronic ignition are just a lot less work.. The old engines were crude castings, and typically were sloppy builds. You can build a modern carbureted small block that will knock out 400 horse and do it with drop dead reliability. I like building engines, so I choose to do it myself. My 283's are just good quality stock rebuilds and that's all... nothing fancy.
That said, you could take your blocks and do lots and lots of things for relatively little money... performance parts are so easily available that you could find used performance heads and manifolds, even if you need two sets.
How much do you know about small block Chevys? Do you think it would be worth the effort to put on the newer vortex heads? It would require a new intake manifold, but I would imagine that the low profile Chris Craft unit is pretty restrictive as it is. Would an aluminum automotive manifold with a wedge plate under the carb be acceptable? What is your opinion on going with aluminum heads to save some weight? And how on earth do I go about selecting a cam? I wold really like to build the engines myself but I can't find a good resource on marine engine building.
Thanks in advance,
Today I picked up the NOS transom for the boat. It is still as it was right after it came out of the factory jig, even still has some pencil lines from the layout. It still has to be sanded and stained, I took this picture just after wiping it with some mineral spirits to get the dust off and to bring the grain out. I think it will look very nice on the boat.
The factory transom will save me tons of time and aggrivation because it already has all of the correct angles and bevels on it where the planks land. Everyting on it is in surprisingly good shape for spending 40 years in various barns. It helped that the protective banding was still tacked to the edges from when it was made. I will be getting stain, sealer and a good base of varnish built up while it is still flat. That way I will only need to have the name painted and a couple more coats when the project nears completion.
Last edited by mucrewbtp; 11-20-2011 at 03:26 PM.
Just curious, what does NOS stand for?
Fish and ships or is that chips
New Old Stock.