Restoration of a rare 35' Lyman Sea Hawk

[ben2go]

Looking good.She'll be complete before ya know it.

[Vernon]

Looking good.She'll be complete before ya know it.

And well worth the effort, she'll be a wonderful lake boat.
Vern

[mucrewbtp]

Looking good.She'll be complete before ya know it.

Thanks! Thats what I keep telling myself.

[nedL]

Looking great! What do you mean "pictures look the same.." --- Hardly! You can see progress all over, we should all be moving as fast.

[mucrewbtp]

Today at the shop I was distracted for a little while at the beginning of the day by the other Lyman which required a new distributor. The last time I had it out the engine started to sound as if it was laboring more than it should and it seemed to have picked up a rumbling type of vibration. Back at the dock I traced the problem out to be a blown vacuum advance module. Of course the module itself is no longer available for a 1961 Graymarine, but luckily I was able to source a complete NOS distributor at a local shop. After resolving the issue with the boat that actually floats, I headed back to the shop to work on the current project. By the end of the day I was able to get the 3/4" fir ply sub-decking final fit and fastened to the framing. I scribed and fit the edges adcacent to the transom and the side decking with a hand plane, and then fit the edge that will butt to the cockpit coaming with a router and a trim bit. The whole area is nice and solid now and it is nice to once again have a ledge to set tools and a beer on.

Before:







After,
Sub-decking trimmed flush:




The aft sub deck will be attached permanently next time I am out at the shop, I will leave the side decks un-adhesed until after the frames are bent in.





Regards,
Mike

[ben2go]

That's a heck of a big difference.Looks like a different boat.

[Reminiscents]

Great job mike, you're making great progress. I can't wait to get to that point with mine. I don't think I'm going to have to dig as deep on mine, but that remains to be seen.

[Reminiscents]

How are things going Mike? Hoping all is well.

[mucrewbtp]

Things are going well, I am starting to work on the long runs of planking below the waterline. I have scarphed two lengths of Meranti ply together to form 16' long planking stock. They are a little tougher to work with but it will mean fewer separate planks to hang and hopefully a drier boat. I hope to have the stern planking done and move on to steaming ribs before the snow flies. I see that you have found a work-site, its good to hear you will be getting the ball rolling soon. I look forward to seeing some progress wth your boat as well.

Regards,
Mike

[mucrewbtp]

I thought I would share an update on a side project I have been working on for the boat. In the cabin, all of the cabinets have nice solid teak frames, but the main panels that make everything up is covered in either wood-grain or textured white vinyl. After putting in all of the time to fix the hull of this boat, I would not feel right about putting fake wood back in. After some head-scratching I figured out a method to use a router to remove the inner panels of the cabinets from the face frames without damaging them. On parts like the main cabin door, head door, and forward stateroom door I will use solid teak for the panels. However for the galley cabinet doors I decided to do something a little different.

This is what the galley looked like before I removed it to make repairs:




Inspired by pictures of classic sailing yachts with leaded glass accents in the cabin and galley I drew up this Frank Lloyd Wright inspired design to be used in the galley cabinets.




My mom, as a preemptive boat-warming gift resurrected an old hobby and made this, I think it came out well.




She will be making two more identical windows and they will be mounted in all three galley cabinet doors in place of the textured vinyl. I think it came out well and the design and colors of the glass will go nicely with what will be a mostly natural teak finished cabin. The only downside of this project is that I will be forced to keep the galley in order, I wont be able to hide anything in the cabinets.

-Mike

[Vernon]

Nice, that's one of the arts I like to try sometime. I still need something to add some bling to the side lites on the front door of the house and I thought adding panels like that would be the ticket.

[chuckt]

That looks pretty awesome. Can't wait to see them in.

[Reminiscents]

Your mom has a real talent! She should be charging BIG bucks making that for other folks. They look great, hope she got a huge hug! ;?)

[mucrewbtp]

I was out at the shop working on more bottom planking today, I was able to get another 16' run of planking removed, copied, fit, and mounted back to the boat. If I can keep up this pace I should be finished up with the aft portion of the bottom planking by the middle of next month. Then I will finally be able to move on to another task. All of this planking work is becoming monotonous and I am looking forward to working on another aspect of the project.

On another note, when I got to the shop today, Bruce from the fiberglass boat shop next door told me there was someone there over the weekend looking for me. The person apparently was familiar with my project from this forum and himself had a Lyman 26' offshore. I am always more than happy to have visitors by the shop however, working for the airlines my schedule is fairly random and changes week to week. If anyone lives in the Port Clinton area or will be passing through and would like to have a look at the project please feel free to send me a PM or an email at mossmanxjt@gmail.com and I will try to work something out.

Regards,
Mike

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I really like those doors, beauty..

Glad to hear you're coming along well.

[mucrewbtp]

As of yesterday the port side of the boat has gotten all of the planking its going to get until after new frames are bent in. I am leaving out the garboard and the plank underneath the outboard engine stringer to aid in lacing the new frames into the hull.




Starting to see the light at the end of the plank gain tunnel, it is very time consuming cutting all of the gains by hand, especially around the turn of the bilge where the planks are fit to a curve. Looking back, if I were to do this again i would have sat down and figured out the geometry to make an adjustable jig to cut the plank gains with a router or power plane. Now I think I am too far along to save any time by making a jig. However if anyone has already built such a jig and cares to share i would love to see it.




Yesterday I got another sheet of Hydrotek meranti and went through the process of turning it into a set of 16' planking blanks. The job starts with ripping the 4X8 sheet into six equal strips then stacking them with the end of each plank set 4" back from the end of the plank below it. This sets the 8:1 scarph ratio for the 1/2" stock.




I started with the power plane to rough out the profile.




I finished up with a combination of a No.5 jack plane and a low angle block plane.




Finally, I used a rabbet plane to remove the thickness of one ply at the heel end of each piece to help the pieces key into each other and allow the feather end of the scarph to sit flush when glued. These three long sections will be installed on the starboard side before moving onto aft rub rails and then new frames for the stern.




Thats all for now,
Mike

[Pismo10]

Great pictures with a great explanation. Thanks, keep going, this is great.

[gt05254]

I can't tell you how invaluably educational and even inspiring this thread has been to me as I get ready to do many similar procedures (if on a vastly smaller scale) to my 17' Rangeley.
Thanks for sharing your expertise and experience!
Gary

[mucrewbtp]

I have finally finished with all of the planking that is going to be done for now. Yesterday I milled up some stock which will become new rub rails. I will install these to add some rigidity to the sheer before I steam in new frames in the stern. I originally thought I would have to steam bend the white oak stock to form the rub rails, but this quick test fit proved that it will take the mild curve and slight twist very easily with a cold bend. The face that mates with the hull has an angle milled on it so that the outer edge is plumb and the under-side is at right angles to the outer edge. I had planned on copying the angle on the mating face and milling it before bending, however I think now I will cold bend the stock, allowing the stock to take a gentle twist to conform to the changing angle at the sheer line. Then, I will fasten the stock over-sized and then plane the outer edge so that it is plumb and bring it down to the final thickness of 2".



This is a test fit of the stock that will become the rub rail, it is 2-1/2 X 2-1/2 the final thickness will be roughly 2x2.



Regards,
Mike

[treud01]

Mike,
Glad to see work is still progressing....I'm looking forward to when you get to steam bend new ribs...Been watching your threads for quite a while and have picked up some very good info which is going to help a lot when I get to my own 25' lyman...It's going to need more work than I thought, mainly because the 2nd previous owner did some repairs that weren't done very well...but it will be fun....On mine the planking is all good below the water line, but above the water line(sheer, 2nd and 3rd planks on the starboard side bow just ahead of the cockpit and 3 feet shy of the bow) will need relacing...only about 2 to 3 feet in the middle...It looks like it ran into something..like a dock or something....and I will need to steam bend several more ribs than I thought, but only because I dont want to do more after 3 or 4 years...

Anyway, keep the posts coming and good luck...

CIAO,
Dave

[mucrewbtp]

Today I got the rough stock for the new rub rails milled to final dimensions with the proper bevel on the surface that mates with the hull. In order to do that I made a jig that attached to the infeed and outfeed table of my thickness planer. The jig is basically an inclined chute through which the stock is fed. The bottom portion is made out of a piece of dead Ikea furniture, the wood-grain film facing made a nice flat, slick surface and the white oak fed very nicely with no binding at all.




Later this week I will attach the rub rails to the hull. Originally it was held on with steel screws driven from the inside of the hull. For ease of assembly and for later repair if necessary I will be using 1/4-20 machine screws and stainless T-nuts to hold the rub rails on to the hull. The oak rub rails should add enough rigidity to the sheer that I wont have to worry about forcing anything out of shape while bending in new frames next month.



Regards,
Mike

[Soundman67]

are you worried about cross threading the Tee nuts while you pull in the rub rail? they really are a pain if they start to cross thread.

[LivingTheDream]

Hi Mike, my Christmas present to myself was taking the time to go back to the beginning of this thread and read it all thru. I grew up in Catawba Island/Port Clinton from '68-'73 when I was very young. My dad knew someone over at Lyman and brought me into their plant one Saturday and I was just in awe looking at all they did there. Looking back, I think they had started doing some fiberglass boats by then as I remember seeing one large mold for about an 18' runabout.

This thread has been fun to watch, and I look forward to seeing the next steps online. A neighbor up on Harsens Island has an old Lyman hidden away, and you may have motivated me to take it on as a project!

Merry Christmas,

Steve

[mucrewbtp]

Steve,

I am glad you are enjoying the thread. It would have been interesting to see the Lyman factory when they were still making boats. It's still standing in Sandusky but it has been turned into a marina and some type of event center I think. What sort of Lyman does your neighbor have? Speaking of Harsen's Island, the sister to my boat spent several years up there until it was brought back home to Catawba island this past summer.

Regards,
Mike

[mucrewbtp]

Soundman,

I first used a tool I made to set all the Tee nuts in the drilled holes. Then I drew in the run rail with clamps and ran the screws in. I had no trouble with cross threading at all, everything lined up perfectly.

-Mike

[mucrewbtp]

The white oak rub rails are now on the boat. The tee nuts and machine screws made the job a lot easier then If I had followed the original method which was wood screws run from the inside of the sheer plank into the rub rail. Not only would that method have been slower, it would have also required me to remove the sheer clamp which I was not all that enthused about doing. Sorry for the poor picture quality, but I had to use my phone since I had left my camera at home.



The new rub rail is a little larger than the original which is 1-7/8" Since I am replacing all of the rub rail I decided to round up to a finished dimension of 2"x 2" which I think actually looks more appropriately sized for a 35' boat. The holes appear from the outside to be drilled lower than center. It looks that way because the holed are drilled perpendicular to, and centered on the angled face that mates to the hull.




All that is left is to trim it flush to the transom.




-Mike

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

A die hard restorer to post pics on Christmas day!!

All good Mike.

[Pismo10]

What goes on top of the new rubrail? A stainless band?

[jeffreyguy]

[/QUOTE]
I like your thickness planer. I have the same one. did you know that you can get better blades for it from in finity cutting tools at this link http://www.infinitytools.com/DeWalt-...products/1649/ ther are carbide ans HSS blades. I haven't tried the carbide blades yet but the HSS blades are definitly better than the OEM blades that it came with.

[mucrewbtp]

Pismo: On top of the oak will be a band of 3/8" teak finished off with a stainless half oval rub strip.

Jeffrey: Thanks for the tip, I will check them out when it comes time for new blades.

-Mike

[mucrewbtp]

Several days ago I finally got a chance at a trial run for steaming in new frames. Unfortunately it did not go so well for a variety of reasons. The first issue is with the overhead clearance in the shop. The ceiling is 16' high and the sheer of the boat sits right around 6' off the floor. The bending stock for the new frames needs to be 12' in length at a minimum so overhead clearance is about 2' too short. I made a tool out of a piece of cable and a modified vice-grip clamp to hold the new rib in a bow while the first couple feet are fed into the hull. The device works, but it takes a fair amount of time to get the piece pre-bent and secured. By the time the rib is actually being driven into the hull it has already had a good minute to cool and has noticeably started to firm up.

The second problem I had relates to poor lumber selection. I made the mistake of going to select the bending stock at an outdoor yard while it was very cold with blowing snow. I picked what I thought was some good white oak but I should have spent a little more time examining it. Once I got it through the planer what I originally thought was straight grained knot free oak had a bunch of tiny pin-knots all through it. They were all no larger than 1/8" in diameter and were the same color as the rest of the wood so they were not visible in the rough cut timber. I picked the best piece of my crap wood for my test but I still had failure at the tightest portion of the bend at the bilge.

Since the failed test I have been working on a method to laminate new frames in-situ while leaving the hull planking intact. I will use white oak and G-Flex and a variation on vacuum lamination. Currently I am getting the necessary equipment together. When I am able to do a test run of my newly hatched plan I will be sure to take some pictures and post an update here.

That's all for now,
Mike

[jeffreyguy]

nice work, have you considered buying from a sawmill directy? Many people (myself included) have small portable sawmills and sell good wood in small quantities

[mucrewbtp]

I have considered going to a mill, the only problem is the closest mills to me are about an hour or more south from my home, and my boat shop is an hour northwest. The supplier I get my lumber from is only about ten minutes from the shop and they keep a large supply of air dried white oak on hand. I have always been able to get good quality lumber from them, this lot recently is the only bad stock Ive had from them. Mostly the problem came about because I did not inspect the timber closely enough. I will still try the vacuum method I am thinking of because if it works it would give me a lot more working time, and also make a stronger and more stable frame. Steam bending the tight bends does put a large amount of stress on the outside of the bend and makes it more prone to rot or breakage. Hopefully it goes well, I am excited to try it out.

Regards,
Mike

[ben2go]

nice work, have you considered buying from a sawmill directy? Many people (myself included) have small portable sawmills and sell good wood in small quantities

My local mobile saw mill is cutting all my wood.This way I can get the 32 foot lengths I need without scarfing.All wood will be white or red oak.Hopefully the only store bought wood will be the marine ply.My local mobile mill gets $50 an hour to cut all the wood I want to the specs I give them.It's cheaper compared to store bought so I can afford quality marine plywood.

[stuhaynes]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread so far and look forward to the rest of the story. It has encouraged me to think positively about future works on my own boat. Seeing all that rot dealt with and the methods you have used is helping me to determine a course of action for ongoing 'maintenance'. My own boat is from 1951 and mahogany on oak, it is also my home, so the work I do is constrained by that fact.
Good luck with the rest of the rebuild and I look forward to seeing your progress.

Stu, UK

[skaraborgcraft]

Air dried oak.....maybe thats half the problem. Best when its green if you are going to steam bend it. Major job you have taken on,kudos to you,nice job on the replacement planking.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

My local mobile saw mill is cutting all my wood.This way I can get the 32 foot lengths I need without scarfing.All wood will be white or red oak.

Red oak is not used in boatbuilding.

Air dried oak.....maybe thats half the problem. Best when its green if you are going to steam bend it.

Air dried oak usually settles around 15 percent or slightly more. That is easily steam bent. The pin knots are the problem.

[ben2go]

Red oak is not used in boatbuilding.



Air dried oak usually settles around 15 percent or slightly more. That is easily steam bent. The pin knots are the problem.

Why is it that red oak isn't used?I need this knowledge so I can save on future issues.Is it a water = rot issue?

[mucrewbtp]

Peter,

you are correct, the pin knots are what caused the problem, the funny thing is I have never seen them in White Oak before, at least not in such a quantity as my most recent stock. The moisture content was 16-18 percent so without the knots it probably would have bent just fine. I am still going to give my vacuum forming idea a shot for a number if reasons. First, a frame laminated with white oak and G-Flex or Resorcinol would be stronger than a bent frame, also laminating would give me more working time to get the frame bent into place and would also put less stress on the hull, lastly the method I have in mind has not been done before to my knowledge and I would like to see how it works out.

Ben,

Red Oak is not suitable for boatbuilding because the pores in the wood lack something called "Tyloses." Tyloses are small wall like structures that block off the longitudal pores within the structure of the wood. These structures keep white oak from absorbing large amounts of water and aide in rot resistance. Red Oak lacks Tyloses, the pores in the wood are continuous. You can actually blow bubbles in a glass of water through a short section of Red Oak. Because the pores are unobstructed Red Oak absorbs water quite well, easily bringing its moisture content up to a level that hosts rot spore.

Regards,
Mike

[P.L.Lenihan]

I have neither the skill nor the patience to undertake such large restoration projects but I certainly can appreciate the effort and applaud yours Mike for bringing back this very rare Lyman model. May you win many awards after she is launched!!



Cheers!



Peter

[mucrewbtp]

Thanks Peter,

I just finished getting all the requisite materials together for the vacuum lamination so hopefully I will have something that looks like progress soon.

-Mike

[P.L.Lenihan]

Thanks Peter,

I just finished getting all the requisite materials together for the vacuum lamination so hopefully I will have something that looks like progress soon.

-Mike

Vacuum lamination...sounds interesting,Mike! I hope you take a lot of detail pictures, especially the how-I-set- things- up-for-the-vacuum-process detail type of pictures. It is a process which has always sort of lingered in the back of my mind as something neat to try one day..., say on a small dinghy.

Cheers!


Peter

[mucrewbtp]

Today I ran a scaled test at my plan to vacuum laminate new frames in to the Lyman. Since this is a more technical and more expensive process than steam bending I figured I should run a test before jumping into it completely. To test the process I first made a template of the curve of the bilge at the transom, which is the tightest bend the frames have to make. A full rib for the boat is 12' long, for the test I made a 6' section that spanned the curve and a couple feet of runout on either side.


The bending form, the six laminations behind the form will make up the full frame thickness:






The process of vacuum lamination requires several separate layers to be wrapped around the piece to ensure that the vacuum can propogate throughout the entire length of the piece. The first layer to be wrapped around the wood is a perforated peel-ply which is a thin plastic film which does not stick to epoxy. In order to ease the application of the peel ply I taped one edge of the film to the bottom side of the first lamination to hold it in place. Once the laminations were glued I would roll the bundle to wrap it in the rest of the peel ply and tape it around the stack of laminations.






Before getting involved with epoxy I also prepped the polyethelene vacuum bag that I would be using by cutting a piece of continuous tube to length and heat sealing one end, and putting a vacuum connector in the other end. I am using a metal valve stem for a connector, a purpose made vacuum bag connector from a supplier costs betwen $12 and $35 each, these valve stems cost $2 each and work perfectly once the valve cores are removed.




The valve stem comes with a washer and rubber grommet, all that is required is to punch a hole and push the stem through.





After applying the G-Flex epoxy to the laminations and wrapping them in peel-ply I ran a length of breather ply along each side of the stack of laminations. The breather ply serves to allow an air channel along the piece and also absorbs the epoxy squeeze out.




After The laminations were prepped, they were slid into the bag, and the other end of the bag was sealed. Once the laminations were clamped into the form the vacuum pump was turned on and attached to the vacuum bag. Once the vacuum is pulled inside the bag athe ambient atmospheric pressure acts as a clamp. This pump pulls a 27 InHg vacuum which equates to roughly 13.25 pounds per square inch of pressure applied to on all sides of the lamination. The frame is 1 1/8" wide and 6' long, ignoring the force applied to the edge of the laminations this equals a total of 2,146.5 pounds of clamping force being applied along the length of the piece. In this picture the blocks on either side of the lamination are only holding the piece in the correct curve, not supplying any clamoing force.





So far it seems like the test will be successful, I did learn a few things that I can change, most of which are related to my prep work and set-up. If this works well I will do one more test with a few tweaks and then I will be ready to get going on the boat and start putting in frames permanently.


-Mike

[Dan Payne]

Great to see your work. I had a 25' "sleeper". No idea they made a 35

[P.L.Lenihan]

So , Mike......how did your scale trial run? I like the detail photos of your set up.Sounds very promising.




Cheers!



Peter

[mucrewbtp]

Peter,It went pretty well. The only issue I ran in to is that my vacuum bag was a little too small. When I did my calculations I did not account enough for the additional layers of bleeder membrane and breather cloth. The bag fit over the lay-up but I really had to coax it on. Despite the difficulties I did get a nice result in the end. The frame section I formed is very strong with nice even glue joints. My original vacuum bag was made out of a roll of 2 1/2" poly tube. Since that was just barely big enough to fit over the piece with almost no room to spare I decided to go up to a 4" tube, and also went from a 4 mil thickness to a 6 mil for more durability while I am coercing the new piece into the hull. I just got the new roll of plastic in the mail the other day, when I get home from my next trip I am going to do one more test with a slightly different arrangement and then I will be ready for the real thing.-Mike

[JimConlin]

I'm a big fan of vacuum bagging.

We did Damfino's masts using poly sleeve bags for well over a dozen layups.
We laid up a 44' spar with a pump at each end.
It helps a lot if the bag is a very loose fit over the whole big layup.

Especially when working with poly sleeve, the terminations of the bag are easy. Duct tape, cheapo weather strip and butyl tape are useful. I never felt the need for fancy fittings on the bag. I just taped my (1/2" ID vinyl) hose into the bag.

All that said, I don't think that bagging is worth the effort for laminated frames like this. You do need 3-4 clamps per foot, but it is, I think, a lot quicker to clamp up on a flat form than to do up the bagging stuff.

There are many threads here on the methods of laminating frames and lots of good ideas. Spring-back is a very rich subject.

[mucrewbtp]

Jim,

You are probably right regarding a flat form and I probably would use clamps if I were building a boat from scratch and had the ability to clamp up laminations on a flat form like I used in the test, or even if I was forming the frames over a building jig. The reason I decided to go with vacuum lamination is because these frames will be laminated in the boat, using the hull and the original frames as a form. Because of the complexities involved there is no good way to get a clamp on the laminations once in the hull. In addition it would create an awful mess trying to get a 12' long stack of glued up laminations into place if they weren't neatly contained within a vacuum bag. Right know I am still in the planning and testing phase, I should be trying it for real soon. Hopefully this works otherwise I have to move on to plan C and I don't even know what that would be yet.

Regards,
Mike

[JimConlin]

It might be hard to pull a vacuum against the hull.

[mucrewbtp]

It would be almost impossible to pull a vacuum against a lap strake hull. The lamination will be contained within a vacuum bag. The whole set up will then be put into the hull and then the vacuum will be drawn on the bag clamping the laminations together. Some blocking and screws with fender washers into the old frames will hold the whole mess into the hull using it as a form.