Page 1 of 6 12 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 262

Thread: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    This design may be of interest to builders on the forum. While capable of high end performance (its a mini transat) built with plywood over stringers between bulkheads/ molds, it's construction is typical of the methods forum members already use to build there boats, especially John Welsford's designs like the Navigator and Pathfinder.

    While high in performance, these boats have a lot of beam for form stability which can make quite a good cruiser for the adventurous in deeper waters as well as speed for a sailer looking for high performance.

    Just might be a good build for an individual or yard with plywood construction skills as CNC files for cutting come with plans. Lucas the french designer is experienced in racing and designing mini's himself, and has had his boats finish in the top 10 in the past. The only other plywood mini for a home builder I know of is by Dudley Dix, but this design requires coldmolding the plywood hull bottom.

    http://www.fr-lucas.com/siteus/reali...etail=80#liste

    http://s1.e-monsite.com/2009/09/26/0...hoto-1-jpg.jpg


    Many construction photos on album photo:-

    http://www.lesvoilesvertes.com/

    and here in Belgium:-

    http://www.leplancherdesvaches.be/constr-MiniCP.php

    and this chap's building one

    http://gwaihir650en.blogspot.com/sea...&max-results=8

    (I'm not linked to the design in any way)

    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-20-2010 at 06:13 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia.
    Posts
    259

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    How do you see a boat like that being "a good cruiser"?
    A l'eau! C'est l'heure!

    Buchie

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    The wide beam gives them very high initial form stability, so they don't roll around in an anchorage like thin narrow boats are apt to do. Their high available sail area and high aspect sail and keels enable them to make good progress upwind or downwind even in light winds.

    These boats initialy look extreme, but they are in many ways very similar to the typical gaffers of the 19th century developed in the Solent, the Itchen Ferries: high sail area, as much beam as they could muster, as much boat in a restricted length as they could build, and fast off wind performance. The heavy roached mainsail these mini transat designs sport, is infact identical the sail plan of a real unreefed gaffer, i.e a gaff sail with the topsail above it in place - this gave the 19 th century sailers a higher aspect sail with a big roach. The gaff sail people think of as gaff rig is really the reefed sailplan of a proper gaffer: the correct starting point is with the topsail hoisted for a higher aspect for rig for upwind and a big roach for downwind. The large gennakers were used on the origianal gaffers also attached to the end of the bowsprit and topsail yard for very light weather. The orginal gaffers required this as they were without auxilliary propulsion and at the time they raced it was all rated by boat length, so they put big overhanging rigs on these boats and used long booms and bowsprits. These mini's are doing exactly the same thing, it also to make them independent of auxilliary propulsion plus they get maximum speed downwind for their planing hull.

    Whilst atypical of the typical cruising boat, fast boats offwind can make fast progress on a typical 'tradewind' route where the boats are mainly running downwind (say azores to carribean). This can mean less time at sea and fewer stores needed. Also those flat bottoms especially when planing, will reduce rolling downwind that can plague ocean crossings in narrow boats, something flat bottom sharpie sailers figured out years ago. A Lyle Hess cutter would be my first choice, but this is another way of doing it.

    I'm not saying these boats are everyone's ideal at all, just under the skin, they are quite similar to a real gaffer. Keel design has just gone deeper and narrower for more lift. Concentrating lead in a bulb, really deep down reduces how much lead ballast is needed, which is also economic for a builder. I accept this stresses the keel/ hull intersection, the big rigs stress the rigging and they won't hove too without a storm anchor/ parachute, so not everyone's cup of tea, but long keelers that don't turn quickly in narrow rivers, in marinas, on or off moorings, steer when going backwards, or point as well as they might are not everyones cup of tea either.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-20-2010 at 01:06 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Here & there in Texas
    Posts
    6,645

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Cabin space is minimal at best. Sort of like crawing in a cocoon. That said, a heavily modified mini-transat boat did recently complete a non-stop solo circumnavigation. It's all about what you're willing to endure.
    The positive form stability translates into similar negative form stability, non? I mean, haven't these types of boats been known to stay inverted?
    Wayne
    Somewhere in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    The Straight of Georgia looks big.
    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/ven...isabeth+Grace/
    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/venchka/

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    I've been inside a Structures POGO. It's like being inside a typical trailer sailer: bunks, small galley, small nav area, but better as the beam give alot more floor area. No you can't stand up, but there are millions of trailer sailer/ 20ft lift keel cruisers all over the world that people are happy with which you can't stand up in either. Again not a liveaboard, but most people out for the weekend or week havn't bought a live aboard, and are happy sitting to cook and eat. That beam gives alot of cockpit too.

    Venchka, your absolutely right. This is the problem with wide boats, upside down there harder to get back up. This is partly offset by the coachroof buoyancy, but mainly by a deeper than typical say 7ft draft with a large piece of lead on the end. This gives it the righting motion to get back up when inverted. They aim for a low CofG by getting all the lead down low, so its a slug or bulb thats aerofoiled for minimum resistance to water flow, rather than put it as a vertical slab like most 70/80's offshore designs, which thus have a higher cofG. At least thats the approach. It does stress the keel/ boat intersectionThe downside is draft, which makes cruising shoal water impossible, so Dix has made a lifting arrangement for those that want it.

    Again, not everyone's dream but these boats have shown that they can get accross oceans whilst singlehanded and raced very hard, so it would be able to cruise local waters. How many trailer sailers have the ultimate stability like a Contessa 32, from inverted, but cruise every shoreline throughout the world happily every weekend.

    No matter, what one's taste in design, they are too easily overlooked by commercial woodenboat builders. Certainly they aren't a Herreshoff Rozinante that we all love, but a boatbuilder fed up of waiting for someone to walk in and order that Rozinante, might do well to look at them. Really nothings changed, mini's are ordered as one off's by individuals to a design, just like boats were 'in the good old days'. There's a ready market with an establishd price of 30 - 60,000 pounds for these in race trim. Most buy GRP pogo 2's but there is a big development ethos and prototypes (proto's) race in their own class. Most boatbuilders would bite someone's arm off to sell a 20ft plywood trailer sailer for $50,000 dollars wouldn't they? A wooden one wouldn't fetch as much probably, but there's still lots of potential profit there, and an already high established market price for referance too, which I think would be easily undercut.

    This design can be built easily, just like a Welsford Pathfinder as far as I can see, just substituting carbon cloth for GRP cloth on the seams. The CNC files would cut down build time greatly to just the assembly for a commercial builder, really counting time. Young people buy and sail these, surely a good market for a woodenboat builder, who can then see repeat business from them (for new boats or repairs) who can also offer customisation that the owners want (that these people look for with keel design: canting, swivelling you name it). Its developing so old designs are relplaced with new ones, so new orders come for the latest. A one off builder can move quicker than a GRP mold builder, who can't update so quickly and easily or inexpensively. The chines we see in plywood boats are the current fashion on offshore race boats and are now being seen on the side of new cruising yachts, so a design like this one isn't old fashioned, but in fact the latest thing for this market. Because a woodenboat builder can always build a one off quicker than GRP company can produce new designs, a woodenboat builder with a close realtionship to a leading designer could always be ahead and so able to charge a premium. And these are bought by people with money or sponsorship and want to win, so want the latest thing. To make money, you have to sell things to people with money.

    I'm just saying, for a woodenboat builder fed up replacing broken frames in old woodenboats, he/ she might well look at this market with an open mind.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-20-2010 at 01:08 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    3,919

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    selway fisher has a design for a mini 6.5 with a huge 3metre beam. If you dont want to trailer your boat, then these wide body boats can be adapted for cruising, be it with some modifications, depending on your tastes. Its the draft that would be the limiting factor for such a small boat. I have never seen anyone make a yacht like this on speculation, it maybe affordable to build the hull, but the rigging and sails to make a competetive boat will cost an arm and probably both legs..... Cheers

    How many Beneto First 21 got sold?? That was the only mass produced mini style boat i know of.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Wooden boatbuilders can't mass produce things. They can do custom one offs that GRP people can't. There's a big development ethos in this class, plywood +/- stringers we all know can outperform GRP, its only surpassed by foam carbon/ kevlar. I'm just saying that wooden boatbuilders could build these easily and there's a fairly high price that the GRP ones go for. So building for an individual a contemporary design that's successful over the water, could fit right in to normal wooden boat business and make a client happy. The woodenboat builder and the client would need to find each other, which means a different approach, these sailers won't be reading Classic Boat. People are building, sailing and racing these, especially in France and some in the UK. They are seen as an entry class to prove themselves for people looking at professional sailing, so there is a market of people looking for speed.

    As a cruiser, I agree the draft is an issue in shoal areas, but not all areas are. Many boats are 6ft draft, so 7ft's no big change. It rules out beach landings for sure, but many look for marinas these days and would rather eat in a restaurant than on their boat: some people tour countries in campervans, some drive a car and stay in a hotel/ motel. You wouldn't rule out campervans as an idea because you can't get them down a narrow country lane would you? We see that they are very popular and people enjoy them, the campervans just keep to the bigger roads, but they still tour.

    In countries with beam restriction on towing, it might also be a problem if you cant tow it home, but you can just leave it in a boat yard like every boat over 3 tons (more boatyard business). For an amateur builder the beam might be a problem in a narrow building space, but not for a commercial builder with a shed.

    There seems to be an ethos of just buying a hull, then fitting out buy the owner with the electronics/ autopilot/ sails he wishes with mini's. All the other GRP ones are priced very much as a basic hull with everything extra so people can choose their fit out. All good for a commercial builder who doesn't want to spend too much time fitting out. This design is just plywood over molds and some stringers, its cost of build is very low. I've looked at the masts on a POGO and they're not massive sections seen on big cruising boats. Rigging isn't expensive either if you do it yourself. It might be an extreme 20fter but its all smaller stuff than on a 27ft boat I can tell you. A full suit of sails would be a bit, but a main, jib and gennaker would not be no more than on a typical 25-30ft boat. Carbon tape is easy to get, easy to use and not so expensive as theres no waste. Lead would cost a bit, but its never been cheap. I really can't see that they would be so expensive to make, certainly not beyond a committed amateur in the market for a 20ft trailer/ sailer/ gaffer type of boat.

    Again I'm not saying they are perfect, or suit even most people, and I don't think you could sell them mainstream either, but just paradoxically the extreme racing sailer or performance orientated weekend warrior, and the woodenboat builder dreaming of a Herreshoff Alerion, could have use for each other in 2010.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-20-2010 at 01:14 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    3,919

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    i certainly agree that to put a hull of one of these types will be cheaper than the "average" (whatever you assume that to be) cruising types as the cost is directly tied to displacement. I dare say a full bodied 17ft pocket cruiser will demand more material and far more lead in its keel, and, it will never perform the way a mini can. Its horses for courses, who would have thought that in this century there would be a waiting list for cars made with a wooden chassis........

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Looking at the latest Jester Challenge race (Falmouth UK to Newport USA) 20-30ft boats singlehanded, a typical and I must say very good dayboat/ cruiser a 20ft Golant Gaffer was doing very well but the owner retired at the Azores, saying it was taking too long for the time he had. Now, true or not, I can't say, but theres a conundrum in small boat ocean crossing: small boats in displacement mode can't go that quick because of the WL length, plus they can't carry tons of stores be out on the water for months to compensate due to the space and weight it takes either, so for a sailer restricted to length, going light but fast is a solution at this length. This race is also an upwid beat against the prevailing current and wind direction, so overall pointing ability and speed in light as well as high winds was important. It wasn't just a downwind race.

    I'd take a 30ft Hess myself, but building that is a diffferent animal altogether in building space, cost, time and skill, compared to a simple plywood mini. Again I'd rather be in the Hess gaffer, especially in bad weather.

    Looking at the Jester result, a quarter tonner was first accross, quickly followed by a Wharram Tiki 21 (30 minutes behind) then a Dehler 29 and Twister 28. A Bristol Channel Cutter 28 came in a few days later. I'm sure he had the most comfortable trip and that boat is built for the job, but it at least shows that going for maximum speed or atleast high sailing performance, when restricted by waterline length to reduce time out on the water and the stores needed over a bigger boat with greater capacity and potential displacement speed does indeed reduce time taken to cross, albeit with perhaps less reserve in case something goes wrong. That has to be the accepted risk, minimised as much as possible by good preparation seamanship (many of these boats are older and suffer rigging/parts failure, so good boat age/ preparation seems as much a limiting factor as the boat type to reach Newport)

    In case anyones not seen it, Dudley Dix's new mini, sporting its new chine!

    http://www.dixdesign.com/didiminiMk3.htm


    For other sailers looking for speed and cruising and shallow draft, a Merlin Rocket (fast UK planing dinghy) designer in the UK, Keith Callaghan has designed trailer/ sailers with planing bottoms some with self taking jibs, that are less extreme in width and depth than minis but can go fast *upto 20 knots. They are built strip planked bottom to plywood sides. He incorporates lots of features to make cruising/ rigging a pleasure and they have lifting centreboards for shoal draft/ beaching. His site is:-

    http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/ts/blueeyes.shtm

    http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/ts/bluestorm.htm


    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-20-2010 at 02:28 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    3,919

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    i notice the "blueyes" design conforms to cat C inshore waters.....

    Surprised that a Tiki 21 has come in 2nd place,that must have been well,and very hard sailed ! Sad to believe a Dehler beat a twister too.....

    The 7 metre bluestorm looks a good compromise...but you have to keep these boats light in order for them to perform well, though due to their high sail area,they probably perform better than an overloaded displacement anyway. Surfing and planing downwind is fine for an hour or two......but it takes its toll on the adrenaline,especially in heavy weather, and these hull shapes have a known habit of broaching at high speed. Having experienced both, i would much rather have a slowish knockdown than a high speed broach.........i must be getting old......

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Here's the older Dudley Dix mini sailing


    Straight stem, big sails, bow sprit...sound and look familiar?

    OK paint it cream, dark shearstrake, cream sails, and wooden bowsprit, lop the very top off the main and put a yard instead of the batten in their if you have too. You'd have the fastest gaffer to hustle with...

    Seriously though, they are developed on a length restriction like the original gaffers were (for local harbour tax). Hence the same solutions but the higher aspect rig and keel points them higher than a typical gaffer and the higher aspect sail reduces the imbalance that occurs to sail's centre of effort as the big square gaff main is sheeted in or out. The price of this has been a deeper draught. The genny's keep speed high downwind. The only thing they've given up, is the 'heaving too' aspect with the long deep keel as far as I can see. The original 20ft Itchen Ferries (from which Lyle Hess's and more recently Paul Gartside's gaffers descend) were very firm bilged and relatively shallow hulled. The keel taking depth to about 3.5ft, so they never had accomodation more than a small cuddy up front, like the minis too. Dan Hatcher the 20ft Itchen Ferry yard owner and designer would recognise that boat immediately. He designed the fastest boats of his day (1850-80's), so I think he would have liked it.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-20-2010 at 03:02 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    The light quarter tonner, Tiki 21 and Dehler were a week ahead of the heavier Twister and BCC. The heavier boats I'd conventially think carry less risk, but there's the facts: they got there quicker with boats that, all else being equal would cost less to build. While those three got there quickest, other 'light displacement' boats didn't, so how much is chance or not? Again boats, owners, routes are all variables.

    This one's fun. Its a website with the tracking GPS on each boat showing the track accross to Newport each boat took as an animation (scroll the bar at the bottom accross). The Tiki looks like it gained alot of speed compared to the others in the final half. Perhpas he was on a reach and it flew? The guy was an experienced sailer, had already sailed it around the world years earlier, but its 21ft long, weighs under 1 ton (as per plan) and he got their first. I can't say what the weather was like, but they were out in the North Atlantic for a month in summer so I should think had a bit of everything. Its also against the prevailing current and winds so not the easiest, and right through all USA to Europe shipping! Some boats lost rigs and people went overboard so it can't have been plane sailing.

    http://www.oceanracetrack.com/racepl....aspx?event=34

    http://www.jesterinfo.org/

    I agree, I want the heavy displacement if I was doing a Jester accross the North Atlantic against the prevailing wind and current, maybe a Sparkman & Stephens She 34 in GRP (but thats too big for the rules). For personal ease of build perhaps a Chuck Paine Frances 26, or if my time, budget, experience and building endurance was upto it a Hess/ Gartside 24-28ft cutter.

    That Wharram Tiki 21 weighs very little though, so costs little in time and money to build. I can't say if it was modified.

    I agree the broaching aspect is a big issue in small fast boats in big waves, or even worse pitchpoling into the back of a wave. I notice Lucas design has a large chine forward to increase the boats volume as the bow immerses. The chine also creates lift as the water hits it, for the same reason the bottom of powerboats and ribs have chines that curve outwards to the horizontal, under the hull. Also he's got curvature at the bow and quite large flare at the bows to help keep it up. Still it would have to be sailed with a knowledge of what the boat can and can't do.


    Sailing in local waters of the Solent, the problem is chop not green waves, so a boat would 'cruise' perfectly well without such worry for a helmsman more inshore, which is why I think these designs shouldn't be overlooked immediately out of hand for the many who look for inshore cruising along a coast from port to port. Especially this one as its a plywood on chine over bulkheads construction. The designer I don't know of but he knows these boats, has a good reputiona in minis and has placed his boats high before. I don't know the plan cost either.

    The Dudley Dix mini older version is available as a cruiser with lifting keel for shallow draft/ trailering (mini sailers often remove the keels to trailer the boats canted on their sides to reduce 'road' beam) with a smaller (less win at all costs) rig. These boats when sailed hard do stress the rigging and keel/ hull intersection, but in the same way a Ferrari is nice to drive (I should imagine) at 40 mph you don't have to do 150 mph just because it can. So with a boat like this, it'll be plenty fast enough with a small jib and reefed main, being light displacement, and high aspect rigged. The big gennaker wouldn't have to come out downwind unless it was light and flat.

    Plenty of people enjoy Ferrari's but they are not racing drivers, just enjoying prodding the throttle occasionally!

    A boatyard crew could knock one up quickly, and not much cost between them, then go 'round the cans' with it. It would be pretty quick over the ground. IOR rating types would rate it badly as it planes, but it would get local racers looking at it and showing up in the boatyard asking how much? I should think, which is a start.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-20-2010 at 04:19 PM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Set up and construction will be familiar to any forum members who have built a Welsford Navigator/ Pathfinder/ Pilgrim or Sherpa etc



    This one shows how the bottom's shape is made which is interesting (and quite simple)



    before painted...



    nd interior construction...plywood on stringers epoxy filleted

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,876

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    The $50,000 price tag likely isn't representing a wild profit margin but a realistic number for the time and materials involved in building these technically complex and extreme race machines.

    They are very expensive boats for their size and length.

    If considering a performance along shore cruiser I would go with the next generation rule from the Gaffers and Sandbaggers, I would build to the waterline rules like the Massachusets Bay Yachting Assoc. rules of 1890+-
    These produced long lean light scow type hulls easily driven in displacement mode and capable of sailing far faster than it. much longer boats for about the same price as the over developed freak type LOA classes, look at the 18' skiffs, they are also very expensive for the size boat you get, same with the sandbaggers, too much boat on an artifically short length overall...

    that said, very interesting thread I appreciate the unusual design, good photos and discussion

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Humhum !!!! I'm the builder of this boat (at least the hull, the customer is currently doing the remaining job by himself...). Surprised to be so known, it is the second time that one of my buildings appears in this forum.

    I'm a very small boatbuilder, owner of a very small shipyard, in a very small country...

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Oslofjorden
    Posts
    555

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    An interesting thread!
    Ragnar B.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    I've got a narrow, long keel, high ballast ratio, long ended, elegant yacht, much like you describe. Yes they have ultimate stability, but they are initially tender so they roll at anchor and with bit of wind until the ballast kicks in. It doesn't sail off a mooring backwards under any control, and it won't turn quick in narrow rivers. I don't take it into tight marinas as it makes me anxious as it won't turn quick (like a fin keeler that the marina is designed for) or go backwards under control to do a three point turn. You sail in the water not on it. Crew eyeball the water going past at about chest height when sitting. Girls especially don't like this. Fast and 'sea worthy' yes, but not all they are cracked up to be in use at close quarters. Once wide rivers are now filled with moorings and marinas. Cruising boats in 2010, now need to steer quickly in their own length forwards and backwards, 50 years ago they didn't.

    It's got three planks and a curved bottom. The molds stay in a bulkheads. The planks fit to the stringers. This boat wouldn't be difficult to build. Its exactly the same as a Welsford Navigator. John Welsford has sold 1000 Navigator plans alone, most built by amateurs, and sail and perform well. This boat uses exactly the same construction method. Time consuming but not difficult or complex. I expect there's a fair bit of carbon/ kevlar/ maybe metal reinforcement at the keel/ hull interface. Its just like wetting fibreglass, just its a different colour and costs more. The process is the same. Any boat needs sails and rigging. An aluminium mast will need to be purchased, but thats not complicated and saves me making one. They are not massive sections, just quite tall.

    Cost, well Jordan boats will sell me a kit for Dudley Dix's mini for 2500. That excludes a building frame and the wood used for stringers etc. Alec charges about 500 for cutting ontop of the plywood, so that hull has got 2000 of Occume plywood probably. Lead ballast is 2 per kilo in the UK. Say 280kg thats 560 for the lead. Wood for the 'bits' probably 1500 - the boat excluding lead weighs 600kg so there's a limit to how much wood is in there. Carbon tape on a roll is easy to get and use, as your not cutting it up. Expensive per metre, but there's no waste. Epoxy, its beamier so a bit more or save money and use Resorcinol where you can. I'll stick my neck out and say you could build that hull for 5-6000 in materials. A main and jib from a sailmaker 2000, Mast and boom 2000. Standing rigging 1000 (much less if you do it yourself). Thats 10000/ $15000 on the water. Instruments/ cushions and the rest later (which aren't alot). A 'conventional' 20ft Golant Gaffer costs 8-15,000 from people we've spoken too, depending mainly on whether it has an inboard yanmar.

    The point is a woodenboat builder on the forum who's built say a Navigator and fancies a bigger racer/ cruiser could build one of these from Lucas, as the design follows Welsford's methods that many builders on this forum will be familiar with. So its unique for a 'mini' design as far as I'm aware, as its construction method is accessible to many builders on this forum, which is why I've put this design up here as something to look at. It would not be difficult to build only requiring patience, money, and a will to finish like any build does. Its not for everyone at all, but for someone who enjoys home building and wanted to prove a point it could be just the ticket.

    http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/price_list.htm

    For beach cruising here's something to look at from Lucas also: the 'Birvidic'

    Split rig like a Core Sound, lifting centreboard and rudder and flat floor that looks to self drain and sleep on....
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-21-2010 at 03:11 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Hi Bena and welcome.

    Roughly how many 4 x 8 sheets were in the hull?
    Was construction straightforward for you?
    I imagine the keel and hull keel box are heavily strengthened. Could you say what the construction method is for these parts?
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-20-2010 at 06:37 PM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Well, the only thing is that I signed a confidentiality agreement with the architect. I'm allowed to publish pictures on my website, but I'm not allowed to disclose anything about the construction method...

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Bena,

    I was wondering if the keel/ keel box needed an expensive fabrication beyond what a good amateur could build which might add a significant build cost. I can respect the architects wishes.

    Can you say roughly the costs of plans form Lucas with or without the CNC cutting file? As a builder, did you feel Lucas's plans were detailed, accurate and comprehensive? It's not a designer I've seen before.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    For an amateur builder, materials are the cost of the boat, there's no labour element. Lead ballast is expensive and costs a very significant part of a big boat's material build cost. For referance in the UK lead in ingots/ balls to home cast is 2000 per ton.

    A deeper bulb needs less of it for the same righting force. This saves a home builder alot of money on a build, is more efficient use of this resource and is a physically smaller keel for a home builder to cast and move into position on his own.

    I can accept that it is more likely to catch the bottom, a fishermans rope, stress the hull or might not prevent leeway at low speeds by going deep and high aspect, but arguably this approach is a more efficient ballast arrangement at least to buy and build.

    Nearly all other cruising and racing boats now take this approach in GRP. Manufacturers take this approach I'm sure to keep their costs down, to sell more boats, as much as to assist pointing angle for a canny sailer.

    Who's engineering the same thing for an individual who takes the same approach in wood? Wooden boats can make excellent race boats, so the material is up to it, and wood has very high fatigue resistance. The attachment of a high aspect deep lead bulb keel to a woodenboat hull needs to be standardised and made reliable. As far as I know, its only the few mini designs that are available in wood that are making this development, which is why I think it needs watching, irrespective of what someone thinks of mini's rig or accommodation.

    Didn't gaff owners exclaim that high aspect bermudan rigs would fall down at sea in the 1930's. They didn't and certainly don't now thanks to engineering.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-21-2010 at 03:59 AM.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    3,919

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    having just looked at the dudley dix web page , i see he has sold 90 sets of plans in the last 10 years......but the small and simple cape cutter 19 sold more than 70 complete boats in 2 years! I think if you want to build a boat and be able to sell it, you need to go with market demands....the cape henry 21 being a less extreme example,would be easier and cheaper to complete,and far more likely to find a buyer if you were to build one on speculation.

    Otherwise i agree with the point made that a small shop could turn out a hull more cheaply than a mass producer. In this case i think you would need to find the customer first, custom boatbuilding is where the one man boat yard can compete, but you would need to build the latest and high tech (expensive) mini to stand a chance of selling a boat built on spec. If you are a home builder and time costs you nothing, then these figures are meaningless. In some ways these boats do make a lot of sense.....but a cape henry 21 makes more sense to more people, and as a builder you would look at that. Im quite sure also that you could become a 6.5 specialist and earn a name for yourself......but i think you will still be replacing rotten ribs and deck repairs to put food on the table...... Cheers

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Bena,

    I was wondering if the keel/ keel box needed an expensive fabrication beyond what a good amateur could build which might add a significant build cost. I can respect the architects wishes.

    Can you say roughly the costs of plans form Lucas with or without the CNC cutting file? As a builder, did you feel Lucas's plans were detailed, accurate and comprehensive? It's not a designer I've seen before.
    Well, to make a lead bulb by yourself is not so complicated. For the keel and rudders you must be able to work with carbon fiber, under vacuum condition... Once again, it is not so complicated, you just need a bit of equipment.
    I think that the price for the plans was 2000 euros, and the price for the CNC panels was 4500 euros.
    Lucas is well known in France, and yes, the plans are ok, even for an amateur.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Dudley Dix cruising version of his mini under construction here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nwswb/s...27021445/show/

    The last picture in the sequence shows the interior of the forecabin. Not unreasonable at all.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    S.W. France
    Posts
    1,083

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    One of the hiccups to the Minis is that, if you build your own boat, it is a prototype. That puts you in with the 'no cost rules' composite lot, rather than the production group. There are many factures in the racing, but being handicapped from the start doesn't help. FWIW, the DD mini has a moulded chine area on ply bottom and topsides, rather than a cold moulded bottom. I tend to pay attention to Dix designs, as a CH 21 builder. And I partly chose the design for eventual resale value, as opposed to my own design, which was tempting.
    A
    The Minis may set off from here, but cruising is a no-no due to the shallows.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    I'm not planning on mini transat racing, just sailing this for fun between ports, so I'm not overlooking this design as a potential performance sailer, that can be built by a method no different to a Welsford Navigator. My 10000 buys me a boat that can do 20 knots downwind and will point high upwind to get to and from a destination quickly. If I do stop at anchor the beam won't mean I'm rolling around in a bit of swell, so I can enjoy my sandwhiches and look at the wildlife without such annoyance. Something that will point higher and be thrilling if needed, rather than quaint. I wouldn't have time at the moment to cross and ocean, if I did I'd take my girlfriend and a Hess 30ft cutter. I could spend my 10,000 on a Golant Gaffer, pretty and 'conventional' but it won't point as high and boat speed can never be more than 6 knots.

    Lucas's design has proven speed, even amoung other minis never mind 'normal' boats and arguably that tear drop third chine is simpler to build than the Dix mini which requires coldmolding the chine. In Dix's favour his plans are half the price, and he offers a cruise version with more headroom, less sail area (40 reduced to 30 sqm - 25% less), full size mylar patterns and a fixed or lift keel option. Cold molding the chine wouldn't be onerous, but it is more complicated than a single plank.

    I respectfully disagree regarding cruising with 7 ft depth. It draws 7ft but so do all the 40ft ers filling every solent marina locally going out every weekend cruising up and down the coast and accross to France. The marinas are all dredged for these boats, so I know I could sail straight in, under excellent control with those twin rudders and flat bottom. My overnight fees at 6.5m will be alot less than for a 40ft er. If I don't fancy the stove, I can enjoy walking into the town and trying the local restaurant. There's always a good one close to such a 'honey-pot'. The English Channel is deeper than 7ft from 50 yards out. The biggest fear I can see is catching Lobster pot buoy ropes with that bulbed keel, but these are mostly in shoal areas.

    This design would be cheap and effective transport for a performance cruiser happy with minimal accomodation. I'm happy on my own and have no children. There's as much room in the front as any trailer sailer that with efficiency can accomodate all thats necessary. I dont need a shoal draft, I have deep water mooring, and I've been to all the local beeches and marshes in smaller boats already.

    It would sail very well offwind down the solent to Cowes and beat efficiently back to Lymington. The sail area will keep her pushed in light winds against a 5 knott tide. Big gennys are great and easy to use when I had a Laser Statos Keel. Out of every boat I've ever had this boat pointed highest. Practically sailing into the wind. These mini's have a similar high aspect sail and keel/ bulb arrangement and would be expected to sail as efficiently. A journey along the coast say to Weymouth or Falmouth would be both within its limits and quick, the odd trip accross the English Channel, perhaps some round the cans racing mid week with friends. Cape Henry is great,they are fast but it doesn't have a high aspect keel and rig, so it wont point as high as a mini. I can't say for other countries, but in the UK most wooden amateur boat are worth only the cost of materials really. I accept there are more people who would look at the Cape Henry, but it would be competing with many Cornish Shrimpers and Cape Cutters in GRP which are available secondhand for 10-15,000. This mini would be a smaller market, but in its favour the cheapest old second hand ones are 20000, so getting 10000 to get materials back could also be possible, but I accept anything unproven would have poor resale prospects.

    10,000 does get you on the water though, a GRP POGO 2 would be 40000 on the water. Not everyone has 40000, and not everyone who does wants to tie so much money up in a boat. The POGO 2 would lose 10,000 over 3-5 years, so you'd be no worse off if you really wanted to build a mini and built a Lucas/ Dix and had to write it off, than if you bought a GRP POGO and then sold it after 3-5 years, but I accept other designs would have a bigger potential resale market.

    At least here in the UK, wooden boat resale is most profitable where there is an expensive GRP equivalent. As an example the Nigel Irens Romily is 20000 in GRP, the wooden ones sell at roughly 10000, half the GRP but at least the amateur buildera are getting there money back. Also many young French sailers don't feel shackled to the past and embrance modern design and construction.

    Here's an intereting perspective, the mini' sport 40 sqm of upwind sail area. Thats is alot I accept, perhaps too much, but looking back historically in Dixon Kemp, the original 21ft Itchen Ferry gaff cutters 150 years ago (1850) sported even more - 60 sqm upwind sail area. They were heavier, but had less beam, depth and used mostly inside concrete ballast with iron punchings. The few that remain: Wonder, Nellie and Fanny, we take pictures of under this full sail and say how fantastic they look. I don't see a que of people telling them they should rig them with less sail on the dock. These mini's have less sail area and have heavy roached bermudan rigs which are easier, quicker and safer to reef than the gaff rigged originals. I agree the sail plan is pretty extreme it puts alot of energy into rig tension, but arguably things are in some ways are less extreme than they were.

    I love gaffers, I have a bookcase full of books of them. Building an Itchen Ferry is still on my 'to do' list but dispensing with a genny/ spinnaker and instead going for gaff rig with its low aspect no matter what you do, does compromise pointing. The gaff always falls off to leeward excessively, reducing drive further up, and you get imbalance with the sail C of E with the hulls C of E as the main is sheeted in or out with a low aspect sail plan. This isn't just academic, its why you end with the weather helm on a reach that affects most gaffers. Just ask the chap who built Atkins Maid of Endor in the UK. They can still be going fast, but they are less of a delight to helm like this. With a centreboard gaffer you can raise the board to restore balance, but now it starts to cost leeway instead. And centreboards, well I've been there, great for hauling out or beaching or leaving on a drying mooring, but they hold less appeal when you've spent your morning trying to drive out impacted mud and gravel from the case, bent the board so it won't go up or down, seen a lift strop snap, or seen a centreboard dayboat turn turtle at anchor in high winds as it raises the boats c of g alot, allowing it to roll 180 degrees over on its mooring chain axis. To reef a gaffer you have to juggle twice the number of halyards and there's a gaff swinging about under poor control, than on a bermudan rig with no gaff and just one halyard. Thats a big plus sailing on your own reefing in poor weather.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-22-2010 at 06:57 AM.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    46

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Has anyone looked at the smaller Le Souriceau. http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/...micro-cruiser/

    A great little cruiser inspired by the mini transat but considerably smaller at 4750mm. I am currently building a pair in Tasmania !

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    18,701

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    I admire your position KH Potterer. Great boats, you must remember as I do when the mini transat was sailed in production boats, like the Hurley 23, with the bow chopped off.

    They've come a long way since Bob Salmon's original idea.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    S.W. France
    Posts
    1,083

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Great position and extremely well argued. Just, in my case, I have always wanted a gaff cutter and practicality around here favours a lifting keel. Thanks for putting this up, lots of food for thought.
    A

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Hi Andrewe,


    The Cape Henry and Cape Cutter's are excellent boats, combining tradition, speed and accomodation. On a typical weekend/evening sail when most people aren't using spinnakers, the gaff rig and low drag hull means they ghost up and pass, bermudan boats downwind, which as someone who's been in the bermudan boat, gives them a fright and confounds their expectations. I also accept that a lift keel, get you closer to the shore, which gets you closer to wildlife and beautiful backdrops for lunch especially where its essential to access creeks and rivers and dry out. A lift keeler is also easier and cheaper to put onto a trailer to antifoul, take home or take to another cruising ground. A deep keel boat will need a crane which is 100 each way in the UK.

    For those that are looking for tradition and speed, the Modern Gaffers division of the Round The Island Race (Isle of Wight - 10-12 hrs sailing) has been won in 2009 and 2010 by one these Dix designs in GRP. But with the proviso, that the win is on corrected time based on rating. It means that the design is efficient compared to others at least. There's still an argument that real speed accross the channel say is what matters when not racing, not speed based on or relative to a rating. Still, these Dix designs do well.

    Last race results:
    http://www.roundtheisland.org.uk/web...=420&submit=Go

    Your epoxy-ply Cape Henry should outperform the GRP ones, so when she's built bring it over and you could win your division.

    Mike Brooke, who won this year in the Dix Cape Cutter design (smaller brother to Cape Henry) has also sailed it around Britain, which is no mean feat.

    http://www.dixdesign.com/cc19sailing.htm

    Jordan boats has a kit available for Cape Henry's for 2600. One was also built and serially recorded in Watercraft magazine recently.

    http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/dudley_dix.htm

    http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/price_list.htm

    I also see that Dix offers a higher aspect bermudan sail plan for Cape Henry.


    Thanks JDMH,

    The Souriceau is not a design I've seen before. I like the interior tiller for steering in bad weather, while keeping lookout and dry sitting inside, head looking out from the 'pod'. The self tacking jib complements this arrangement too. Very safe. The lift keel and flat drying out would allow access to any harbour, ports or beach if you had to run for cover in a small boat. Good for Channel Islands and Brittany.






    It looks very interesting. How are they built?
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-23-2010 at 04:32 AM.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia.
    Posts
    259

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    KHP and others, Thanks for your comprehensive replies.

    Great thread.
    A l'eau! C'est l'heure!

    Buchie

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    3,919

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Keyhaven....i think for you yourself and the sailing you envisage doing then a mini type may fit the bill. As noted,people may buy a ferrari but not drive it excessively fast,and you can also sail a mini sedately. The point about commercial building one of these is as a ferrari is a limited market, you would be better building something in the cortina (old mondeo) range if you wanted to be able to sell it.

    I have had reefing jamb ups on both gaff and modern fully battened systems,and at least if the gaff jambs you can at least lower the gaff span halyard and lose drive,not something you can do with a fully battend bermudan that is refusing to come down. Both have their merits,and i dare say set up and maintenance is a bigger issue.

    If you dont have the budget for a second hand pogo,then yes you could possibly build one of these for less.and if you used good materials,good workmanship you may just get your money back if you were not costing your time. You may even find a builder who is fed up of being in a smelly bilge fixing broken frames,who would give you a fair price for a hull build, but that will obviously push up your calculations.....even boatbuilders need to eat sometimes.

    If you are happy with a 7ft draught and have faith that most marinas have regular dredged channels then no problem.

    As someone who seriously considered taking part in the transat over a decade ago in a modified E-boat, i dont have a problem with these boats,im just saying its a limited market. I still uphold light displacement boats have an advantage for most modern owners,but having been in extreme weather in one in mid atlantic, i too would rather have a 30ft Hess thesedays, but at the time i was young,invincible,and couldnt afford to build one so i went with light displacement. No regrets either!

    I think you should build one so we can all go sailing at 20 knots!

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    3,919

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    The souriceau is ply epoxy build,has retractable keel with maximum draught of about 4ft5in and weighs in at around 530kg. I would say she was as good a bet as the other boats you are looking at,she will be cheaper to build but just as fun to sail. She is tiny down below,but that does not seem to be an issue for you,certainly enough room to sleep and have a basic meal and a brew up. Plans are $750.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    This is the 5.7m version


    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-24-2010 at 06:58 AM.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    We approached that speed possibly in the Laser Stratos keel, didn't have GPS/ log on it. It was really a case of keeping the boat under the sticks to keep things vertical in gusts, within reason the boat went in the direction it had to. It also seemed best to quit while we were ahead on such a run, but it showed me that gennakers are in reality easy to use. Compared to centreboard dinghies, that bulb also seemed to give you a few extra seconds to sort things out in a 'predicament', so surprisingly we never went in and we felt it made a better seaboat compared to a friend on a 29er who was (just) faster but went in alot more. The only trouble with it was in a left over slop or light swell with no wind, the boat would be pitching, but the lead bulb was keeping the keel vertical (or giving it alot on inertia) so there was movement between the keel and boat which could cause wear. When sailing normally though it was all very solid.

    But that memory of speed, on the edge of apparent control, or at least what was comfortable stays with me in my mind as a great sailing day, equal to a great view of say the Eiger I have in my mind. It was a thrill, and we got away with it. "Teenage kicks are hard to beat...".



    100kg bulb at bottom of daggerboard
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-22-2010 at 10:14 AM.

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    I'll summarise my argument then shut up.

    Do these boats not represent the most able 1 tonners? Boats in the 1930's-1960's were ordered in tonnage e.g. 3 tons, 5 tons etc. These are the best 1 ton's. They make advantage of that light displacement by allowing them to plane. This gives them added value (a cheap thrill) and allows them to make good time accross an ocean with careful sailing, especially on a typical tradewind route, which they need to do because they can't carry months of stores this small.

    The small displacement is an advantage in this market. Those in their 20/ 30's don't yet have the financial reserves to buy a 30ft grp boat or necessarily the patience or skills developed yet to build a 30ft Lyle Hess Cutter. Such people don't have lots or any kids yet or even a long term partner that has to be accomodated in a big ship, so can manage in the small accomodation. They are used to small cars and small flats, so are used to living efficiently. They are not giving up life's luxurys as they haven't had them yet.

    They haven't got loads of cash reserve saved yet, but do have a dream. A 1 ton boat is much cheaper and quicker to build than an 8 ton Hess Cutter designed for the job. Plywood on stringers is do-oable, an 8 ton carvel Hess beauty is in a different order in time, materials, cost and endurance even with Larry's book.

    The sail area keeps them going in light air, so they keep on going through the doldrums. Larry Pardey is a big supporter of light air sail area.

    They have high rigging tension, I admit, but engineered into wood compression, isn't that using wood to its advantage. Wood's ace card is it's high fatigue resistance and compression resistance. Just ask any pit prop. Home built is self repairable.

    An alternative mainstream choice for 10000 is an old 1960-70's Contessa 26. A very good and proven design. Unfortunately, these are now 30-40 years old, sails, rigging, masts, booms, hulls, sea cocks, chainplates are all frequently worn out. The bilges stink. Nothing works. They can be made ship shape and bristol fashion, but need money 5-10,000 and time. Its not fun building a boat over three years all the time, but its even less fun scraping off old paint and detritus, finding bodge repairs and trying to find fittings trying to sort out these old boats, which also takes years to do, as I've found out to my cost. A new boat, with a new rig, sails and hull has 'sea worthy' attributes of its own compared to something 30-40 years old that might be a 'good ocean cruising design', but the actually boat in front of you is now getting worn out, fatigued and less fit for such purpose.

    These boats I argue, can thus make a rational '1 ton' cruiser choice. Was it not always so: the Sparkman& Stephens She 34, now seen as a minstream even old fashioned cruiser, was firstly a race boat - 'Morning Cloud' Syndney - Hobart with Ted Heath. The Twister 28, another crusing stalwart, was initially a Holman IOR raceboat. Even the Contessa 26 is a modified folkboat scandinavian racer.

    High rig tention and inverted stability would need careful consideration, but small boat cruising always has carried risk.

    I hope with this argument that more people can see them not as ridiculous, but rational.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-22-2010 at 10:56 AM.

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    3,919

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    i actually agree with all the above. Its only rigging and keel issues that cause concern,but its precisley the rig and keel that makes these boats perform like they do.

    You can pick up a Nordic Folkboat in these parts in top condition for around 3k. I believe that would be money well spent on a small yacht that could go safely anywhere a mini would......and you can guarentee she will self right! Obviously she wont exceed 6-7 knots.

    Where do all the young people get money from? As you point out,this is not an old fart type of boat, and the younger sort of adventerous type would happily take off in one of these.

    So,to summarise, even if i think that the commercial side of building these on spec is a risky undertaking, i will agree that to build new,or self build, minis will give you more performance, and ability for its weight,than any other type.......in fact there is nothing else really like it!

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    3,919

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    oh...no need for you to shut up, i think everyone appriciates different points of views,makes for interesting balance of thoughts and ideas.....i believe thats the good thing about forums.

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    South Puget Sound
    Posts
    156

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Keyhaven,
    You've piqued my interest with this thread. Having just completed a Paperjet design by Dix, and last week saw the Didi Mini cruiser in the shed at the NWSchool of wooden boat building in Port Hadlock, I'm very interested in this Lucas design.

    If any of you go to the WBF, stop in at the school in Port Hadlock, they're building a couple of other boats that are interesting.

    Jim

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Tasmania
    Posts
    46

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Hi Andrewe,

    The Souriceau is not a design I've seen before.



    It looks very interesting. How are they built?
    9mm Gaboon plywood, construction technique is basic wood epoxy. The plans by Eric Henseval are very comprehensive and he has had them translated into English.

  41. #41
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    This is 25cm longer than a Welsford Navigator.







    You can build and then later store this boat in a single garage which is an asset for a home boatbuilder. It can be built with or without the chines. Keel can lock down. One crossed Atlantic to Guadelope.

    This is all a matter of perspective...a tiny boat if your used to a 30ft'er, but its palatial if your used to a Navigator and don't want to sit or sleep in the rain any more.

    Interior is light and airy... Only 350 - 400kg of wood to build and 120 kg of lead to cast. So is this the best for 'half a ton' of materials. It surely should be high on the list for dinghy cruisers as well as it can be towed by any car, doesn't need a crane out and can be built and stored in the same size area (a garage). The high aspect rig and keel should point well and those pods will ensure you can see all the wildlife action while enjoying a cup'er in the dry. The leeward pod will afford a great view sailing upwind.



    very ergonomic...



    Here's a good look at the Souriceau in a video...

    http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/chan...ere-hauturiere

    and a 12 page magazine report with lots of pictures here

    http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/...micro-cruiser/
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-23-2010 at 12:10 PM.

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    190

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    I like - relatively cheap, out there performance, relatively palatial accommodations, except it is styled like a lummpy suppository ! Ah well, 3 out 4 ain't bad.

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_Peter K View Post
    I like - relatively cheap, out there performance, relatively palatial accommodations, except it is styled like a lummpy suppository ! Ah well, 3 out 4 ain't bad.
    Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. Flat sheer's are very sea worthy but certainly I accept the insecure middle classes would want to see more sheer forward to be comfortable in the past. But any shape is possible when you cut the sheer. That deck camber is for inverted instability I should think. Being flat is good to walk on and shed water off. The deck is stronger without a dog house interupting it. Paint it cream, wooden shearstrake, varinished mahogany etc if necessary, but that would be too retrospective. Why ape the fakes? The market is full of pretentious gaffers.

    I like it. It is what it is. Form always follows function in the best things that endure because nothing is superfluous. Workboats built by real men with a job to do were always so. The interior layout, size, cost, unsinkability and self draining aspect are all great and required. That gives it its shape. Also many dinghy cruisers are a very independent minded bunch, and put great value on solutions to problems like buoyancy, self draining, dryness, accomodation and pointing well etc in this size range. There are no such solutions in something else this size like a Joel White Haven 12.5 or an Oughtred Ness Yawl, that have the look you describe.

    Those pods and interior steering means you can still sail in shorts and t-shirts in poor weather, and provide a great lookout in poor weather under autopilot. Just look at how popular deck saloon yachts have become. It would also allow one's partner to retreat from the elements in poor weather but still see what was going on. I think too, many girls aren't into camping or sleeping rough in a dinghies bilge overnight. Certainly mine isn't. This interior design allows a civilised evenings discourse then a warm and comfortable bed with a skylight.

    I think small boat cruising/ cruisers go out there for the journey and to get to a quiet anchorage or close to wildlife, they are not trying to impress anyone or themselves or they'd have bought or kept that bigger GRP trophy boat. There not into that anymore, or out on the water for that reason.

    So I think it suits the market that would actually use it, small as that market is. Mainstream in the UK buy Cornish Shrimpers new or secondhand, and now always will, so its best to leave that market to what they want.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-23-2010 at 02:01 PM.

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Those pods...its so Starwars and R2D2...
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-25-2010 at 05:35 AM.

  45. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Camden, Maine
    Posts
    560

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    For beach cruising here's something to look at from Lucas also: the 'Birvidic'

    Split rig like a Core Sound, lifting centreboard and rudder and flat floor that looks to self drain and sleep on....[/QUOTE]
    Can you post A link to this design?
    Tim Marchetti
    CNC Routing & Design
    www.cncroutinganddesign.com

  46. #46
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas


  47. #47
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    The lack of sheer is an interesting one.

    The original real Itchen gaffers had in fact, no sheer to speak of. They were built this way as its cheaper, quicker and easier to plank the upper carvel strakes without any edge set. Percy Mitchell built the original West Country 20ft Toshers did the same. It also gave them more buyancy forward and freeboard, useful to working boats then as it is to cruisers now. I think hiding the deck camber with an elevated sheer would only build in a wave scoop for a small boat that could more easily bury its nose.

    In fact a flat sheer is representative of the type historically, and the 'modern' gaffers with their pronounced sheer, attractive as we may regard it, were in fact never ever this way originally.

    This is Nellie built mid 19th century (1860's or so) representative of the real Itchen Ferry type, from which Dixon Kemp took his notes, from which Hess, Gartside and every one else took their numbers:-


    And Wonder built at the same time...


    If people accept that these mini's or type are decendents from the original 20ft Itchen gaffers that were also similarly built, sailed and raced to a length restriction, then their flat sheer is both still historically accurate and representative of the original type.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-23-2010 at 05:22 PM.

  48. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    1,876

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    This design may be of interest to builders on the forum.

    While high in performance, these boats have a lot of beam for form stability which can make quite a good cruiser for the adventurous in deeper waters as well as speed for a sailer looking for high performance.
    Got to say I agree enthuiastically with the concept and while I mentioned I would go with a scow type hull I think the lead bulb keel is an interesting saftey feature.

    you mention 1 ton 2000lbs for this 20'er, the E class scow is 28' with lots of sail... and weighs just under 1000 lbs, it uses a mast head float instead of lead to keep it from turtleing
    It's likely a scow hull could take some accomodation ideas from this class.

  49. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
    Posts
    3,919

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    thats a nice shot of Nellie underway!

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,965

    Default Re: Chined plywood mini transat by Lucas

    John Hall is building two Souriceau. For those intersted to see John is taking a very thorough approach with scale models to study first. These show a good U-section forward buoyancy arrangement this boat has to hinder nose diving in green waves.

    John has CNC cut his kit of parts. These can be seen to be able to be cut very efficiently from the plywood sheets. The design includes a CNC file if owners wish.

    Excellent pictures of construction. Thanks John.




    http://gallery.me.com/johndhall#1000...r=black&sel=56
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-24-2010 at 04:47 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •