Fiberglass below the water line?

[viking north]

Read most of the post and Bob Cleek's #21 post says it all if you are serious about restoring this vessel. Key words restore meaning the entire vessel. Don't just look at the hull is the boat as a whole a cost effective restorable project. If so follow Bobs excellent opinion and advise. I am retired from some 40yrs. of boat building,repair and some survey work. If you just want to get a few yrs. use out of her by all means FRP the bottom but take it up to the deck edge to reduce water getting behind the FRP skin. I say reduce because you can't stop it as it will occur from moist warm air inside the hull migrating thru the wood hull skin and condense on the inside surface of the FRP coating. The result is of course the origional hulls planking becoming saturated resulting in rot and delamination of the FRP skin. To prevent this in house construction we wrap the inside walls of the house in a plastic sheeting(vapour barrier). In the commercial fishing industry many fishermen do the FRP route to get a few more years out of their old worn out leaking boats. If you take this route don't expect low maintenance or much more than 5 yrs. extra life from the hull at which time it will be a total write off. From an economical point of view it depends on your vision either way it will require money. A proper rebuid will result in an asset to some degree, a quick fix an additional expense of demolition and landfill. ---Geo

[GARRBOSR]

Tons of great arguments here, all have merit, some more than others and a topic I call the "Hot Zone" and Ive been a few here times. What Ive learned on this subject is there are different applications for different problems and fixes are all over the place and one must also look at location as well. Some paints, adhesives and all measure of things work differently in regard to climate as well, but the prep and process is always the most important aspects. It looks like the hull is in decent shape, so after your surveying of the hull I think you will have much better amo to make the proper call. the older and tru ways are generally the best but Im not apposed to new science either. Ive seen tremendous results from glassing over, but the underneath is key if it sucks to begin with its gonna suck after as well.But They also use this method on new boats being built now as well, encapsulating the wood, check out this post here on the forum,,amazing boat and workmanship
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...iet-Nam/page24

Hey sdowney717l, Saw your posting here and would like to communicate , but prefer out of the "hot zone" lol Iwould like to check up on your 37, I lived on and partially restored one myself. would u mind send me a msg with some contact info ? I now have a 43' 1969 Egg sport fish and interested in seeing how yours is doing

[GARRBOSR]

wow Larks, thats sweeeet, got any finish pic's?

[beachgeek]

Me too. I am very interested in your results so far.
No shame if it does not work, most of mine don't, but at least I have fun trying and learning all kinds of things.
Usually I find uses for the material for something else.

What a great time to be boating as there are new products on the market all the time.

New question - alternatives to plywood pilot houses. I am beginning to hate marine plywood. Somehow, someway water leaks in and it starts rotting. Then have to dig it out, the hardest part. Is it possible to make the pilot house all fiberglass? Worried about the strength factor. Currently has stainless vertical columns. What about the top, need to walk around on it so needs lots of vertical strength. Even thought about going aluminum.

[GARRBOSR]

there's a sheet good that is made of resins and also a extruded plastic product , havnt seen it in some time but we used it in conjunction with some fiberglass chemical tanks in square applications.
for the plywood have you tried a good soak w/CPES,especially all edges and then a couple Hot coats of epoxy, a full 2 coats epoxy then multi directional layer of #4 or 6 FRP mat? like a cold mold process? I should think that should last al least 40+ years if properly maintained

[beachgeek]

there's a sheet good that is made of resins and also a extruded plastic product , havnt seen it in some time but we used it in conjunction with some fiberglass chemical tanks in square applications.
for the plywood have you tried a good soak w/CPES,especially all edges and then a couple Hot coats of epoxy, a full 2 coats epoxy then multi directional layer of #4 or 6 FRP mat? like a cold mold process? I should think that should last al least 40+ years if properly maintained

No I have not tried a good soak. Usually just put on one coat of epoxy, being very careful of getting the edges & then epoxy and glass #6. I will try that. Thanks!

[nedL]

Egg Harbor did hit it just right with the design and styling of that 37' sedan model. As a result, they do seem to hold value quite well in today's wooden boat market, and are still very desirable.
That said, they did have some real short comings in the construction side of things (which you are already aware of). Even as almost 'new' boats they were notorious for cracked ribs at the turn of the bilge in the aft half, and rotten transoms. It was normal to see the transoms painted out on fairly young Eggs to cover over the dark water stained sides of the transoms. The reason for this is that when the boats were built, the last building frame aft was a solid sheet of plywood that was left in place and then had the mahogany transom planking nailed to (with bronze anchorfast nails). It used to be a joke with carpenters in the N.J. boat yards that when someone started the job of replacing a transom in an Egg you could tell if they knew what they were doing or not. The new guy would be there trying to remove the plugs in the mahogany planking to get at the fastenings, and the experienced guy went at the transom with a Skillsaw. (Pacemakers had these same issues.)
As to how to move forward I too would agree with Cleek. In the long run the best way (and the way that will see the boat holding the greatest resale value) is to do a proper rebuild as she was originally put together, (with the exception of correcting the transom construction). As someone else mentioned she does not appear to have hard spots developing at the turn of the bilge yet (good thing). I would suggest adding a couple of more keel blocks up forward as it looks like her keel is starting to droop on either side of the forward block. I would also check out the dark staining on the mahogany on the inside of the trunk cabin (near the windows) as that was another problematic area. Chances are pretty good that you've got some good engines there as they are fresh water cooled, or at least they are probably save-able.
Because of the light construction it was always pretty normal to see the seams open up and even for the cotton to start falling out of the seams on an Egg that had been out of the water for a couple of years. I would look at the seams along the turn of the bilge closely to see if they are any wider than elsewhere else. When the ribs start cracking the seams get wider, and just adding more caulking makes the ribs let go faster. You do definitely need someone experienced in Egg Harbors to really look her over well and give you an assessment so you know where to start. At least in what can be seen in the pictures you may be taking her on just in time, right at the edge of where things are turning from mostly cosmetic to structural. Good Luck, She can be a real nice boat when back in the water. Keep us posted.

[GARRBOSR]

wouldn't you need to apply the Xynole with permaflex like weting out 3mm Glass? essentially its the same no?

[MN Dave]

there's a sheet good that is made of resins and also a extruded plastic product , havnt seen it in some time but we used it in conjunction with some fiberglass chemical tanks in square applications.
for the plywood have you tried a good soak w/CPES,especially all edges and then a couple Hot coats of epoxy, a full 2 coats epoxy then multi directional layer of #4 or 6 FRP mat? like a cold mold process? I should think that should last al least 40+ years if properly maintained

That sounds like king starboard. It is a polyethylene sheet, which is trice as heavy and a third as stiff as plywood. I think you will find it too heavy and flimsy as a direct substitute for plywood. Most adhesives will not stick to it. I have yet to try g-flex but I would start with that, since it does apparently adhere pretty well if you prep the surface properly. 3M makes some acrylic adhesives that do bond PE such as 3M DP-820.

So, does anyone here read Woodenboat? The Sept/Oct 2012 issue f'rinstance? Maybe even look at page 64? The problem most folks have with sheathing a boat with fiberglass is that they don't use enough fiberglass. For a 50' classic yacht like Carib II it takes half an inch of glass, vinylester, polyester and more vinylester by the barrel to made a structural shell. That was probably more than four 55 gallon barrels of resin and over a ton of fiberglass and 22,000 roofing nails. (guessing at 24 ft from gunnel to gunnel by 48 ft long - 128 square yards at 16 lb per yd)

Fiberglass can be successfully applied to a wooden boat. What you get is a fiberglass hull lined with an old wooden boat. Better than a bonfire, but not for purists.

The permaflex polyurethane rubber coating is interesting, since unlike fiberglass, it might not have much of a problem with the boat flexing and can take a lot of motion between planks. It might work well with Dynel, and may be good for SOF?

[Lew Barrett]

Costa et al, I have been around long enough to see many boats with many types of repairs, and with a very few exceptions, the 'Wonder Goo' approach has been a resounding failure. With all due respect to SDowner's project, I would need to see a report on the condition at 10 and 20 years before I was inclined to follow this path, although I fully support his right to do any thing he wants with his boat, and will be interested in hearing reports, 6 or 9 months is no test...
I have done a few cold mold skin jobs with some success, but I think you would find it more cost effective to stick with tried and true plank on frame repairs for this boat. Eggs where built light, and as they age this leaves them vulnerable to particular problems, sound like the prior owner has begun dealing with these, I would continue along this line, it sounds like your yard has neither the skills nor inclination to be of much help along these lines, and as the learning curve is steep, I think you are going to want some talented experienced help, my first goal would be to find a local 'Guru' who; 1. Is able and willing to assess your projects current state. 2. Able to help you do a project 'triage' approach to her repair plan. 3. Is able to work where the boat is, and is able and willing to communicate what he/she will charge you, and seems like somebody you can trust, both in his capabilities and in his honesty and ability to help you learn your lessons about restoring your boat. This person may be hard to find, seek referrals from everybody who might have a lead or has done similar projects, the yard may also know of some contractors who can be of help.
The repairs she will need are likely pretty straight forward, the important thing is to be able to prioritize every front you need to fight on( Eggs are notorious for trouble in the cabin sides around the windows etc. ) you don't want to shoot your 'whole clip' into the bottom and find that the cabin-side is toast, or that you need a rebuild on one of the engines...
Wishing you the best, Cheers, BT

Good post, leaving aside any personal assessment of the value of an older Egg Harbor. My 2 "contribution" is to add to BTs comments about looking at the project as a whole. One thing is likely; this will not be an economically viable proposition in the sense of returning dollar for dollar, input to output. You do this sort of thing because you want to engage in the process. Almost without exception, you can always buy a better boat than you can restore for the same amount of money. This is something you have to want to do.

The argument I have against glassing (and it has been previously expressed), even if it is done for the long term, is that it impedes future repairs. Regardless how well you do the job, a boat will need work in the future. If it is a structural repair, whatever it is sheathed in will have to be removed before those repairs can be effected.

Almost every other argument and point of discussion has already been made here, so I will reiterate just one from BT. Look at the total project and do not fixate on a single point of focus. The bottom of a 50 year old boat that has not been re-powered or has not seen other significant work will only be the starting point once you start running her. Systems will fail, parts that are worn now but are not getting full mind share will reveal themselves as the boat is put back into service. A boat that has not had continuous use and maintenance will reveal itself to be precisely what it is; production or custom, it matters not. Every original system on your boat is up for replacement or rebuild.
Bear that in mind as you go forward.

[Cogeniac]

How its done here is

1. rout the seams and epoxy in splines
2. epoxy 2 diagonals of 3mm
3. glass

The boat will now last your lifetime

Note the "YOUR" lifetime part of that.... This means it might last another 20-30 years. My boat is 83 years old. I fixed it properly and it should last another 50 years or so, and then someone else will hopefully do the same, and she will go another 50 + years...(assuming there is still wood in the world)...

[GARRBOSR]

Hi Lew, Thank you for that invaluable post. I understand everyone wanting to explore newer, faster cheaper ways to ,,, reinvigorate, repair, save the duration of there boats or perhaps one there thinking of buying because of there low cost compared to a newer less worn out boat. This is a post you can find anew everyday. I too want to find a new science or product that will aid in the longevity or repair in a wooden bottom. Im curently looking at the " permaflex angle as posted by member sdowney717 in post #2 of this thread. Ive tried to contact him more on this process to see how its held up in the 4-5 years since he did this job with no responce returned. It looks to be a great product but as you mention, in future repairs, it looks damb difficult if not ridiculously impossible to get back to wood. If that is the case, I would have to say, its not worth it in the long run. For most planking, carvel and such, I find it rather easy to replace a underwater plank. BTW, looking for a partner to save a 42' 1969 Grand Banks with a little worm damage on the botom. Has all new equipment just needs some plank replacement.

[Lew Barrett]

You are welcome. Some very good advice has already been donated for free; mine is just the latest.

Every decision depends on what goes or went down before. The first steps are the most crucial, so pick your poison and your projects with great deliberation. Restoration is a road that, once you head down it, narrows to the point that should you realize you made some bad initial decisions, it is often too late. You can learn this one of two ways; through the experience of others or on your own. Often the wisest voices can be the hardest to hear....or listen to (if you prefer).

Few large scale restorations go down without significant "overshooting," and even the best planners can find themselves at awkward crossroads on most projects.

Are you feeling lucky? Get that experienced voice over to her and once you have confidence in him (or her) listen very, very carefully to what is said and what is not said. There is an art to getting the most information from your surveyor that's as important to your success as his skilled and experienced power of observation.

[chas]

"Every decision depends on what goes or went down before. The first steps are the most crucial, so pick your poison and your projects with great deliberation."

What a great statement, from one with the experience. Sometimes what went down before needs to be reversed or improved, at least for the task at hand. Above that, in our climate I'd say you need to keep the rain out, not so easy without a ready shelter. As to the benefits of fibreglassing below the waterline, if there is one thing you must do, that is to keep the rain out! / Jim

[GARRBOSR]

I have recently came across a beautiful old Wheeler, Georgous boat, a 36-8 maybe and built in 1958, it was the extended cab model, and a real stunner. BUT,, someone years ago covered her with fiberglass up to the gunwales. Bottom too I believe but have not seen her bottom so I dont know. I dont think they actually used mat cause I cant see any, but they did indeed epoxy the whole boat. NOW some 10-15 years later it is all cracked at the seams and other places as well. Can you imagine getting all that glass back down to actual wood again !!! I want to save this boat, its the Commadores boat at the boat club I just joined and he is practically giving it away, but if I start now, I want to still be alive when I finish as to enjoy it. did I mention its a WHEELER! try to find a decent Wheeler and you to will be old, or much older, there just so hard to find. It is an amazing looking boat with outstanding lines, and a very big project. Ill say this though, its dry in the bilge

[Garret]

ICan you imagine getting all that glass back down to actual wood again !!!

My boat was epoxied from the boot stripe down - 40' at the waterline & 8' 3" draft with a full keel. We did not do the rudder as there was nothing left under the glass & we wanted to save the shape for a pattern for the new one. It took 255 8" 16 grit disks to get to where we had to switch to finer grit for the last bit.

Can you picture how much fun that is with a big Milwaukee grinder, full respirator & tyvek suit with a hood?

[GARRBOSR]

and what 400 hours of just sanding? can it peel?? Heat ? But thats a real fine lookin boat you came back with, congrats times 10 Garret, that is sweeeet. got any more pics? she looks fast too

[Garret]

and what 400 hours of just sanding? can it peel?? Heat ? But thats a real fine lookin boat you came back with, congrats times 10 Garret, that is sweeeet. got any more pics? she looks fast too

Maybe not that much - over 200 for sure. I had no luck with heat + the cloth was tacked on with copper tacks. There were a few sections that had separated & those got torn off. One problem with that was that when I got to the edge of the separated sections, wood would come off with the 'glass. On the ballast I was able to remove over 1/2 with a beater chisel & hammer.

She is a beauty & I feel lucky to be her caretaker. My wallet disagrees however..... She does move along nicely. Pics? Sure!

[GARRBOSR]

OMG! she is definitely a stunner and yes, you are a lucky one (besides the wallet thing for that there all holes in the water we throw money in) Very well done Garret, I think on the Wheeler, it has managed to save her in some ways, she will take allot of time and paper, but she's basically dry and for that her body may not be in all that bad a shape. Im gonna ask to hall her this winter and see if she's worth saving. I try to learn how to post pic's by then too. lol. Need some rak time, will check back tomorrow

[Garret]

If she's glassed on the bottom, make sure you get every drop of water out of the bilges before any chance of freezing. DAMHIKT.....

Thanks & good luck!

[Cogeniac]

WOW! Garret, that is a gorgeous boat! Please!More pictures!

[GARRBOSR]

hey Garret, whats your choice on the brightwork varnish and have you tried the Urocksys ( not sure how to spell that one) like Lucky luk on that Viet Nam Schooner? I cant find it anywhere as its from the Netherlands or something . Ya more pic's please though we are getting away from the original post a wee bit

[Garret]

hey Garret, whats your choice on the brightwork varnish and have you tried the Urocksys ( not sure how to spell that one) like Lucky luk on that Viet Nam Schooner? I cant find it anywhere as its from the Netherlands or something . Ya more pic's please though we are getting away from the original post a wee bit

Epiphanes. The paint is Interlux Seattle Gray.

Thanks for the compliments!



My avatar:

[GARRBOSR]

just freekin WOW, pardon the pun, but you must get a woody every time you lay eyes on her, ya ! I also use epiphanes, I find it just brushes great, soaks well when doing a hot coat, just a great varnish. Who is the builder of this ship? she has an incredible easy layout, very graceful and simplistic yet great workmanship and detailed for easability. Not complicated, very open. As you know, Im a cruiser guy, have had only some limited sail experience and have spent most of my time with the cabin cruisers and power but this ones almost got me ready to convert. Ok , Im goin out on a limb here, but is this a Blanchard schooner ?

[Garret]

Blanchard built, Ben Seaborn design, sloop (with a baby stay so it can almost be a cutter). Blanchard delivered her to the Pier brothers (pronounced Pie-er - who worked at the yard) with no interior & the brothers built the interior + all the winches & bronze castings.

Very nice, clean layout. 6'5"+ headroom (since I'm 6'5", that's a good thing).

OK twist my arm Here's the galley (not the original stove or stained glass):

[GARRBOSR]

What, no codoes for gettin the builder rite? from a power boat guy lol , actually I had just saw a Blanchard on BYB and saw the resemblance. Seriously, thats just gorgeous Garret, stunning really . The flow of the interior, and the amazing finish is ,, amazing. I have much to learn..and life, so short. did you do a complete rehab and if so How long did it take? She also looks very easy to sail single hand yes?

[Garret]

You get those! Did a bunch of major work & am now redoing 90% of the frames & all planks below the waterline. She's 52' & no auto-pilot, so no, not easy to single-hand. Two people can cruise her pretty comfortably & when I get an auto-plot, that'll be even easier.

I've been working on her for 12 years - though those shots are from 4 years ago. Because of tearing her apart, the whole boat will need new varnish & paint next spring - in & out.

[GARRBOSR]

whoa, thats quite the undertaking indeed, though I find planks not all that difficult, the 90% of the frames is really major. Good luck, I wish I could say Id help, and would love too, but I think the travel thing will prohibit that not to mention my own dealings is enough to frazzle my own gray matter. I would love to have some contact info so I could pick your gray matter a time or two, and would love to keep tabs on your progress and smarts on the rehab. I'm starting a resto next week down south and its always nice to have others to sound off on once in a while. If your ok with that maybe u could send me a msg.

[Lew Barrett]

You haven't put nearly enough photos of her up over the years, Garret. Seattle Gray! Not this summer (of late) but surely an appropriate name!


She's a beaut! Blanchards are light as a rule, just the way they did it I guess, and as generally true for the power boats as his sailboats. By the way, I was amazed (again this year) to see how lightly Circe was built as well (speaking of Seaborn).

[Garret]

You haven't put nearly enough photos of her up over the years, Garret. Seattle Gray! Not this summer (of late) but surely an appropriate name!


She's a beaut! Blanchards are light as a rule, just the way they did it I guess, and as generally true for the power boats as his sailboats. By the way, I was amazed (again this year) to see how lightly Circe was built as well (speaking of Seaborn).

Yeah - Seattle Gray is a great color. She's white, no wait a sec, maybe not - plus I like how it goes with the teak & the cadet gray sunbrella.

You west coast guys talk about 2x2 1/2" oak frames on 15" centers (less than 12" OC from the rudder shaft through the engine bay & from the stem aft to the mast step) with 1 3/4 planks as light. Study some S&S, Aldens, Concordias, etc. - IOW - west coast boats are much more heavily built than east cost ones.

In the interest of full disclosure, she has gotten frame repairs - not replacements. The bottom 4-5' of most have been replaced & shorter frames aft & forward have 2' or so. Basically the frames below the waterline & then up 3-4 planks have been replaced. Bunch of sisters too of course. The upper portions of the frames are in excellent shape - so no need to tear even more out to get at em.

[Lew Barrett]

Perhaps not your boat G, but I think it's fair to say Blanchard's short run production boats are lightly built. Maybe "suitably built" is a better way to say it.

But to illustrate (and these are not sailboats), the Standard Cruisers seem to all need frames (or have a pile of sisters already) which is what I was thinking when I said that. Perhaps the fast Herreshoffs you guys are used to seeing set something of a standard for lightweight construction. Most of the old power-yacht builds I hang with are lighter rather than heavier, but the Blanchards always seem even more on the lighter side to me; which is not to say badly built. Just lighter than not.

[Garret]

No argument there! I will also say that Neoga had gotten a few (20?) sisters over the years - 99% at the turn of the bilge where there is a sharp bend in the frames. With my repairs, there are now a lot more sisters....

[chuckt]

Have ya'll noticed the article in the most recent WB about fiberglassing Carib II? Not just sheathing--essentially adding a fiberglass hull under the planking. If you're going to do it, I'm thinking that's the way.

[24hacker]

I have a friend which built a 24 ft. Hacker, a 28 ft Hacker, and a 20 ft. custom - all of which have a West system fiberglass bottom. Still running strong after 20 years.

[SEWMAN2]

i glassed a 42 foot scoponich yacht using the vaties method in1983 gunnel to gunnel and decks. faired and Algrip. Have only bottom painted over the years. When seen people do not believe it is a "glass hull". Also repowered with a lehman diesel. Due to weather, it is hauled every season. Hull remains "fair anf true"

[sdowney717]

Hi just logged in to see any discussion on the permaflex.

My boat is still dry. Hull has not cracked, does not leak.
I responded to some messages just now.
Eggs are bad for cracked ribs and they should be fixed before you coat permaflex.

The one thing that can help make the hull stronger which I did not do is.
Put some dynel or xynole or some type of stretchy cloth laid into the permaflex. Upside down you would have to use staples to hold it in place. TEST first to see if that will work!

For caulking seams use PL premium polyurethane construction adhesive OR Black PL roof and flashing polyurethane which is softer.

Permaflex works for me as do the other PL products. I also coated the inside so when rain gets in it helps keep it from rotting. that is going to be a big concern when sealing the outer hull.

Those PL caulks will fill the gaps and the permaflex will keep it from falling out. Really good way to make a dry boat. I caulked and coated in July when the gaps were big. Also you can mix sawdust into the PL 50-50 to cure it in thick layers. The construction adhesive will tint well using sawdust with colored woods, mahogany etc.... Clamp or press it down it will bubble up. great for filling in missing chunks. Eventually it finishes swelling. Takes some skill to work it, experiment! Cereal bag plastics make a great non stick barrier for that adhesive. Backed up with a smooth piece of wood gives a perfect flat rubber finish. For sanding use heavy grit paper.

Only chemical I found to clean before it sets is 90% rubbing alcohol. I also found the PL to be really good for sealing surfaces including metals. Just smear it on the surface using a finger in thin layers. I sealed some wood seams using that method. If it bubbles up you need to smear it down again. If you get it thin enough, you wont see any bubbling.

For reinforcement I have even used fiberglass dry wall tape set into the PL Const Adhesive..

[GARRBOSR]

Hi just logged in to see any discussion on the permaflex.

My boat is still dry. Hull has not cracked, does not leak.
I responded to some messages just now.
Eggs are bad for cracked ribs and they should be fixed before you coat permaflex.

The one thing that can help make the hull stronger which I did not do is.
Put some dynel or xynole or some type of stretchy cloth laid into the permaflex. Upside down you would have to use staples to hold it in place. TEST first to see if that will work!

For caulking seams use PL premium polyurethane construction adhesive OR Black PL roof and flashing polyurethane which is softer.

Permaflex works for me as do the other PL products. I also coated the inside so when rain gets in it helps keep it from rotting. that is going to be a big concern when sealing the outer hull.

Those PL caulks will fill the gaps and the permaflex will keep it from falling out. Really good way to make a dry boat. I caulked and coated in July when the gaps were big. Also you can mix sawdust into the PL 50-50 to cure it in thick layers. The construction adhesive will tint well using sawdust with colored woods, mahogany etc.... Clamp or press it down it will bubble up. great for filling in missing chunks. Eventually it finishes swelling. Takes some skill to work it, experiment! Cereal bag plastics make a great non stick barrier for that adhesive. Backed up with a smooth piece of wood gives a perfect flat rubber finish. For sanding use heavy grit paper.

Only chemical I found to clean before it sets is 90% rubbing alcohol. I also found the PL to be really good for sealing surfaces including metals. Just smear it on the surface using a finger in thin layers. I sealed some wood seams using that method. If it bubbles up you need to smear it down again. If you get it thin enough, you wont see any bubbling.

For reinforcement I have even used fiberglass dry wall tape set into the PL Const Adhesive..

I would think the less the better, as in caulking after allowing the planks to swell to there normal swelled extent before caulking with the PL. In the cource prepping for splash, I always soak the hull on the hard if Im out for more that say 30 days, I will put a hose in the bilge, a sprinkler underneath, what ever, so the planks get to there normal place. then let dry for just a couple days, and then calk. In my mind, to caulk early does not allow for proper expansion. Thats huge to me anyway. Once soaked and its in there natural place, its ok to calk.
The advantage I see here is in a barrier coat with 2 parts plus. The ability to coat the bottom with a 1/6- 3/32 coat of material that will inhibit water penetration, yet still plyable, sandable, and flexible and avoiding using an epoxy and glass which is non flexible and would later make for a miserable replacement and miserable maintenance obsticle which is sure to come. I am not by any means knocking your method, and actually applauding it and I know this product well. Provided you have done well by your hull to begin with, I can see this as a good way to continue the integrity and a tight bottom, and dry that may indeed prolong a GOOD hull much longer. In construction Ive been using it for years, Hate it when I get it on me and Im good, no matter how hard I try, Its always on something other than what I had intended it to be on. Its unavoidable, but, Its awesome. Ive used it on dirty surfaces and it still sticks. Cement, Ive used it to stick a plate (think framing) to a dirty cement floor after Sandy and it held. amazing stuff for real. anyway, I like the thinking of using this as a barrier coat that will be many more times the barrier bottom coat we now use and stick.
Anyone else want to chime in here??

[sdowney717]

Yes, it makes a terrible mess on you working upside down. Alcohol destroys the ability of permaflex to cure, so can try that for cleaning up.
I did wear some rubber gloves sometimes to try and keep it off my skin.
It also wants to dribble and drip upside down. Wish the hull could have been flipped!

On the caulking when dry, I thought about it myself as some were saying here it would bust frames or pull screws or fall out. None of that happened.
At the time in July seams were opened maybe 1/8 to 1/4 inch. PL has a slight rubberiness compress-ability, not totally hard.
In my thinking it would seal it well and if the planks swelled just seal even better. My idea was coat the inside framing and inner planks to keep out the fresh water and help keep standing water from soaking the planks. And so far that seems to have happened. None of the inner planks show any movement. Mine was a major rebuild including all new screws and a lot of new framing. Went up one size on the bronze screws from original.

You want a tight hull taught hull as it gives it more strength. I did experiment with using some fg cloth laid into PL. It takes longer to harden. I have seen fg cloth rip so dont use that, use something that can move and stretch a little if you want to add another layer against intrusions.

Wood planks swell up very tight when in water and the edges come together and crush. Then as the boat works thru the water, the edges rub and wear and crush some more. Progressively loosen and then start to weep and leak. Doing what I did locks the planks together in a rubber cocoon. No movement of plank against plank is possible anymore. The whole hull acts more as a unit frame while still allowing flex.


PLUS one major benefit is no WORMS GRIBBLES etc.. can ever eat the boat hull.

For the worm shoe I did this.
Removed worm eaten worm shoe wood.
Ground and Scraped off the tarry stuff to clean wood.
Coated with permaflex.
Then put a new worm shoe of red oak.
Coated with permaflex.

Now when painting permaflex upside down on a horizontal surface, your going to get some runs and drips. The idea though is not to sand the surface smooth. You could, but it is expensive stuff. You can cut off large offending drips. On a humid hot day this will be less of a problem as it will gel up quicker.
If you really want it smoother and are tired of playing with it, let the small drips harden. Then get some Black PL poly roof and flashing and fill it in with a wide putty knife. The black PL sticks very well to the permaflex. All these coatings take paint very well.

Also you must wash permaflex between coats with soap and water. It may form an oil on the surface when it cures. That will interfere with another coat sticking. It will be easy to wash off, permaflex forms a smooth hard rubber glossy surface.

[sdowney717]

I know a lot of this idea of using a rubber sealer is a strange idea on a wood boat hull.
One way you can think of this as a wood boat hull sitting not in a water bath, but a bath of PL construction adhesive and Permaflex. The wood soaks swells up in this bath and then it can never dry out again like it will if swelling the hull with water.
Making this work takes some small amount of skill and common sense approach.
Clean and dry wood with no coating is best. Oily wood or wood with flaky loose paints and bits is going to be a big problem with making any coating stick.

[MN Dave]

Yes, it makes a terrible mess on you working upside down. Alcohol destroys the ability of permaflex to cure, so can try that for cleaning up.
I did wear some rubber gloves sometimes to try and keep it off my skin.
It also wants to dribble and drip upside down. Wish the hull could have been flipped!

On the caulking when dry, I thought about it myself as some were saying here it would bust frames or pull screws or fall out. None of that happened.
At the time in July seams were opened maybe 1/8 to 1/4 inch. PL has a slight rubberiness compress-ability, not totally hard.

Also you must wash permaflex between coats with soap and water. It may form an oil on the surface when it cures. That will interfere with another coat sticking. It will be easy to wash off, permaflex forms a smooth hard rubber glossy surface.

Some cabosil fumed silica might help with the drips. It shouldn't take much to give you a more thixotropic mixture that will still flow and have some resistance to running.

A rubbery solid is not very compressible. It will tend to bulge.

[sdowney717]

Interesting idea on mixing in the cabosil fumed silica.
A good test would be to try it on honey. Honey has the same feel, consistency of uncured fresh permaflex.
I have mixed sawdust into permaflex and it hardens quicker due to the moisture content. It also bubbles a little with sawdust in it.
Permaflex reaches a sludge point all by itself as it cures. And by that time you cant be painting it on a surface, But you can move it around. Eventually it skins and finally sets solid. If you poured it out too thick it takes a very long time to cure all the way thru. Easily cures in about 1/8 layer thicknesses. I imagine the fumed silica would have enough surface moisture picked up from the air that it would cure in great thicknesses.

I think you want a taught tight hull, so a harder rubber between planks better than something like a pillow.
On a normal wood boat caulk say you want the cotton to make it taught, the plank edges actually do crush down and wear as the boat moves.
A hull like that will be like a stretched drum and will still give but not perhaps break as the stresses are better absorbed over a larger area.

Planks wont be moving or swelling sealed in permaflex. About the only place water can get in is on the inside capillary action by way of screw holes. I wondered about this on my boat, but years pass and nothing happened.

Thinking out loud here:
Adding another consideration regarding fumed silica. Depending on the moisture content in the silica, it will accelerate the cure. Likely wont have a great effect as likely not much moisture is in the silica. Being moisture and temperature dependent for the cure, you wont want the permaflex to setup so quick you cant apply it all. So some experimentation is needed. If it got thick, you could also add some xylene to thin. Dont want to thin too much of course.

You can also chill the pail holding the permaflex. A hot pail is going to cure faster than a cold pail. You could put it in another pail with cold water or ice. I have put mixed permaflex in a pail in the freezer and you can use it the next day.

[MN Dave]

Adding another consideration regarding fumed silica. Depending on the moisture content in the silica, it will accelerate the cure. Likely wont have a great effect as likely not much moisture is in the silica. Being moisture and temperature dependent for the cure, you wont want the permaflex to setup so quick you cant apply it all. So some experimentation is needed. If it got thick, you could also add some xylene to thin. Don't want to thin too much of course.

You can also chill the pail holding the permaflex. A hot pail is going to cure faster than a cold pail. You could put it in another pail with cold water or ice. I have put mixed permaflex in a pail in the freezer and you can use it the next day.

You have a very good point. The moisture doesn't affect epoxy, so I hadn't considered the moisture content of the silica. I checked into it a bit. There can be enough moisture to cause problems if you try to mix it with the PU and then store it. I wish I could say more about the short term effect other than to agree with you that some experimentation is needed. It's hard to say whether it would help cure a thick layer, and there is always the problem of bubbles. For thinning, the Permaflex AL MSDS lists AROMATIC NAPTHA (Coleman fuel), which contains xylene.

The moisture content of the silica appears to be predictable and not to hard to control: http://www.cabot-corp.com

This is a long description of thixotropy (change by touch) and has this to say about mixing cabosil with PU: Fumed-silica-controls-rheology-of-adhesives-and-sealants :

Polyurethanes -- Hydrophilic fumed silicas are used to control the rheological properties of polyurethane (RTV-1) sealants. However, as these are moisture-cured systems, the silica is normally predried prior to use. This is both inconvenient and expensive. Even when the silica is predried, the viscosity of the polyurethane system increases on aging. This is probably related to premature crosslinking of the polyurethane polymer by interaction of the isocyanate groups at the end of the prepolymer chain with the surface silanols on the fumed silica surface. The hydrophobic silica CAB-O-SIL TS-720 can impart reasonable sag resistance with moderate viscosity increase without the need of predrying.