Fiberglass below the water line?

[JCosta]

I was given a 1965 Egg Harbor 37 and I'm in the process of repairing/repainting... well most everything. I spent about 5 months researching online and reading books on boat repair. I'm getting tired of reading about it and want to get working on it. I've been going back and forth about whether to glass the hull below the waterline or not. I was told by the boat yard that hauls it that the hull was "tender" I assume that means that the hull has lost its stiffness and will need refastened. Oh I should mention she has been out of the water for 4 years now. The previous owner had sistered several ribs, turn of bilge, and replaced the transom. He was able to give me pictures of the process.
I was wondering if fiberglass below the waterline, if done correctly, is a good idea and will sure up the hull. I noticed that most of the old caulking has fallen out as well as the cotton, especially along the garboards. I posted a link to some pictures, they don’t tell the whole story, but you can see the outside condition.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4971079...n/photostream/

This is my first post... I appreciate any help I can get!
John

[sdowney717]

Only glass it if your willing to make it super strong and thick
otherwise, it is going to crack where the plank edges meet.

You can do what I did use permaflex on the bottom
clean out all the seams
sand off all the paint
repair any broken frames
you need to make the hull in good shape or your just wasting your time
Force black PL premium polyurethane roof sealant into all the cleaned seams and fair any cracks with it.
You can sand this smooth with random orbit after it sets
paint on several coats of Permaflex from www.sanitred.com

You should consider lining the inside of the shaft log. It was lead lined and that just decays after 40 years
I lined mine with some liquidtight conduit

[sdowney717]

You can also consider after one coat on the bare wood, stapling some XYNOLE fabric onto the hull and then coat on some more permaflex.
I have been thinking of adding that at a future time

Xynole is a loose weave polyester fabric with stretch. Permaflex also bends and stretches.

TEST that before you actually do that to see how it works.

[sdowney717]

Some shots of the relined shaft log with the 2 " conduit tube glued in
I used sikaflex grey concrete Self leveling to seal the bronze flange to the surface along with Black PL to glue conduit in shaft log



here it is with that Black PL polyurethane roof sealant

[Thorne]

"Tender" mean "tippy / unstable" in boat-talk. If yards are really using this word instead to describe frame fastening issues, it would be nice to hear about it...

[andrewe]

This is going to be interesting....

[bob winter]

I have always been told fibreglassing a wooden boat below the waterline is the kiss of death. Depending on the boat, this may or may not be important.

[chuckt]

That's a cool looking bottom sdowney. How old is it? This permaflex sounds like a fascinating product. Like Bob, I didn't think it was advisable to glass, or similarly coat, the bottom of a traditionally planked hull. Mind you I am open to new ideas--I'm the guy putting a plywood/epoxy/xynole bottom on a wooden boat. But she isn't planked and I have all new frames and encapsulated inside and out. So I'm not criticizing--I'm genuinely open and curious.

I am now going to depart the kill zone of this thread, retreat to minimum safe distance and see what happens from behind my blast wall.

[JCosta]

sdowney717: Thank you for the info, I will have to read more about it on the site.

Thorne: This yard is not a big fan of old wooden boats. They appear to want nothing to do with them so I didn't know what to make of there comment. Maybe it's because I'm not looking to use their services.

andrewe: In what way...

bob winter: I hear the same... primarily on forums. With that said I have also read a few books on the subject by Vaitses, Trefethen and others that say it can add life to an old wooden boat... again if done correctly.
As far the "importance" of the boat... it may not be a "classic" to some, but it's mine.

[sdowney717]

Think of this mostly as a waterproof membrane sealer.
Granted, it has strength to it by itself, but you do not rely on that
the Black PL Polyurethane roof sealant is totally waterproof and is a soft stretchy rubbery seal. The problem with just using that or 5200 is the planks may spit it out when they move.
When you seal coat it with waterproof permaflex, the boat still retains flexibility and the seam seal can not come out.
The entire bottom is like one well adhered piece of hard rubber.
The cured surface of permaflex is highly glossy and when it gets wet is extremely slick feeling
They also tell you you do not need any bottom paint on top of it, so you got less maintenace issues.
Call them or email them and ask specifically about this.
I can send you the email they sent me with their test results if you want. They dont market permaflex as a bottom paint for barnacle protection, but I think they should.
You also seal the wood away from underwater critters gribbles and worms that will eat the boat up.
It also seals under water metals away from water so I would think you got fewer issues with them and electrolysis delignification.

[kc8pql]

"Tender" mean "tippy / unstable" in boat-talk.

I agree. I've never heard "tender" used any other way re. boats.

[kc8pql]

JCosta wrote: bob winter: I hear the same... primarily on forums. With that said I have also read a few books on the subject by Vaitses, Trefethen and others that say it can add life to an old wooden boat...

It can add life to a dead wooden boat, but in the end, it will still be dead. It's life support, not a fix.

[wizbang 13]

I would say, get a pro to check out the frames and floors and caulking. Then go one way or the other. The" caulking falling out" alone sounds a bit shocking, and that can soften up a boat (tender?) Could very well be original 1965 cotton in there. Frames broke or rotten? Lightly built boat. Being out 4 years gives you the potential to go modern and dry. Nothing is cheap or fast,free boat, heh heh.

[paul oman]

you might consider skipping the fiberglass cloth and using a flexible epoxy paint on the hull over a solvent thinned (very thin) epoxy sealer. Need the flex to allow for the different expansion/contraction of the wood vs. epoxy paint. Best if you can also flexible epoxy paint the interior of the hull too - sealing the wood on both sides (a very good thing compared to epoxy on just one side). Besides easier and cheaper also easier (and off) if necessary. Also doesn't have the stigma of 'glass covered' wooden boat.

You would have a sort of flexible epoxy barrier coat common on fiberglass boats suffering from blisters.

You could fill open seams with a rubber epoxy paste prior to the flexible epoxy hull coating.

epoxy is also the universal primer so you would be all set for the next coat of paint (topsides, bottom paint, boot-top) etc.

You don't want to use a brittle boatbuilding epoxy resin system.

[wizbang 13]

Paul Oman, What is this "rubber epoxy paste"? What is this "flexible epoxy hull coating"?

[Paul G.]

How its done here is

1. rout the seams and epoxy in splines
2. epoxy 2 diagonals of 3mm
3. glass

The boat will now last your lifetime

[Larks]

How its done here is

1. rout the seams and epoxy in splines
2. epoxy 2 diagonals of 3mm
3. glass

The boat will now last your lifetime

That sounds like a good solid fix Paul, essentially giving the boat a new hull of double diagonal planking. Maybe a good saturation of CPES throughout the old timber before epoxying the new planking over it?

[sdowney717]

the bottom of this boat is very curvy.
basically nothing on the bottom is flat, it even has a small hook to the aft end
The bottom is like a gold fish belly.
How you going to bend and twist the plywood this much?
Will the plywood bend that tight bilge radius?
The splash rail is also underwater when at rest, likely need to take it off and curve the wood up the sides

I have wondered if this hull shape you could plank overlapping new thin planks running fore and aft.

[Larks]

I don't think Paul meant for him to use 3mm ply, but to use planks of whatever timber is most suitable over there:

[JCosta]

chuckt: That's my main concern, because I’m unable to encapsulate every piece of the interior I will need to keep it as dry as possible to prevent rot. Your comment to "depart the kill zone" was a good one... however I've always believed in "no pain no gain".

kc8pql: She may not ready for it yet but even a boat on "life support" can recover and go on to live a productive life.

wizbang 13: Consulting a pro may be needed for the final decision. The cotton didn’t start falling out until she was out of the water for 4 years. I assume the planks opened up enough for the 1965 cotton to fall out. I received pictures of the repairs from the previous owner of 30 years, they did not show rot but broken ribs at the turn of the bilge. The 1-1/8" x 2" steam bent oak may have been a little light for her size. You are correct... nothing is free!

Paul G: That was the direction I was leaning towards with a slight variation.

1. Sand hull to bare wood, clean out the seams using a router to expose clean wood.
2. Wet out the seams with epoxy then fill with thickened epoxy.
3. Sand and fair after epoxy cures.
4. Coat the entire exterior with epoxy and glass below the waterline.
My hope is that this would seal the seams permanently, provide a strong bond between planks and prevent moisture from entering the hull.

Larks: My second option involves the use of CPES and High build epoxy paint below the waterline. Hey great pictures to.
1. Remove all the paint and reef the seams. Replace the cotton and fasteners where needed.
2. Coat the seams with CPES then caulk with polysulfide caulking.
3. Apply two or three coats of CPES.
4. Followed by two coats of high build epoxy paint below the waterline.
5. Coat the bilge with CPES then finish with bilge paint.


sdowney717: I hadn't thought about double planking. Do you have any pictures of your Egg Harbor? How long has it been since you did the work on the hull and how did it hold up.


I truly appreciate everyone’s comments and I look forward to more. Has anyone had any experience with my second option?

[Bob Cleek]

(Wondering why I bother....)

Your Egg Harbor is a quality built boat. If you want to increase its present value and watch it hold that value and (when the recession eases) even appreciate, repair it correctly. If not, slather crap all over it and continue to do that each year chasing leaks until the weight of it all brings her to the bottom.

I wouldn't bother if the boat were of a build that wasn't worth saving, but since it is, it's really pretty simple.

First, find a good WOODEN boat surveyor and have a full structural survey of the hull done. Obtain repair recommedations from your surveyor. Follow the recommendations. ... Simple as that.

Do NOT rely on what you read. Most all of it is 1) outdated and 2) reflects the writer's own prejudices, which may or may not be accurate or valid. Twenty-five years or so ago, lots of "authorities" thought coating an aging boat in epoxy or fibreglass was the cat's meow. We've learned since that it was only a good way to reduce the number of classic boats left to enjoy. There is no way, absolutely no way, that putting epoxy and other polymer based coatings designed for fibreglass and other non-wooden hull forms is a proper "fix." Ever. Apples and oranges, my friend. (Remembering that CPES is a good SEALER for use under paint and varnish.) Good stuff in its place and bad stuff where it doesn't belong. Simply put, wood moves and plastic doesn't... even "flexible" plastic. Wood breathes and plastic doesn't, even epoxy, which is to some extent permeable. Please, oh please, if people would just let go of this "encapsulation" horse****e! There is no such thing. If you want that kind of punishment, try building a perpetual motion machine or turning lead into gold and you'll at least stay dry while you go broke. Just don't go there. If you want to repair or restore a wooden boat, simply remove the broken and rotten stuff and replace it JUST THE WAY IT WAS BUILT IN THE FIRST PLACE! The next time it has to be repaired, that will then be possible and, potentially, the boat could last forever. Cover it with crap and that's the last work anybody is ever going to do on her.... next stop the chainsaw and the landfill.

Simply put, if you want an "like new" boat, then replace the worn out parts with new parts... don't just slap more parts on top of it. And, in that vein, laminating wood on top of a traditionally built hull is really stupid. The old stuff wants and needs to move. The new stuff won't. The boat will tear herself apart, not to mention that she'll be a lot heavier than she was designed to be. (And if money is an object, consider what you will be paying in additional fuel costs to push all the extra weight around.)

She may or may not need some frame replacement or sistering. She may need some work done to her floors. If so, bite the bullet and do it right, or have it done right. She apparently needs to be caulked and painted (with driven cotton, not some poly-crap goop). After that, if you do the job right, you'll have a damn fine boat.

It would be a shame to see such a fine boat destroyed by somebody who (admittedly... shows there's hope for you yet) doesn't have a clue what he's doing. Like Pete Culler said, "Experience begins when you start." What he didn't say was, "Make your learning mistakes on a boat that isn't worth much."

[JCosta]

Bob,

I just wanted to say thank you for "bothering". I also think she is a quality boat, this is why I want to do things the right way. This is why I'm here... on the forum. I've read so many books some with conflicting views that I'm more confused now then when I started this. The sad part about that is that of all the books I've read on the subject of wooden boat repair, not one gives much mention to traditional methods. Any suggestions?

I will definitely consult with a WOODEN boat surveyor. I'm sure it will be money well spent. I'm not looking for the quick fix, I really like this boat and want it to be around for many more years.

Again... thank you

[andrewe]

'Interesting' as in the expected replies that this subject regularly brings up. Def a hard hat zone.
A

[Paul G.]

(Wondering why I bother....)

Your Egg Harbor is a quality built boat. If you want to increase its present value and watch it hold that value and (when the recession eases) even appreciate, repair it correctly. If not, slather crap all over it and continue to do that each year chasing leaks until the weight of it all brings her to the bottom.

I wouldn't bother if the boat were of a build that wasn't worth saving, but since it is, it's really pretty simple.

First, find a good WOODEN boat surveyor and have a full structural survey of the hull done. Obtain repair recommedations from your surveyor. Follow the recommendations. ... Simple as that.

Do NOT rely on what you read. Most all of it is 1) outdated and 2) reflects the writer's own prejudices, which may or may not be accurate or valid. Twenty-five years or so ago, lots of "authorities" thought coating an aging boat in epoxy or fibreglass was the cat's meow. We've learned since that it was only a good way to reduce the number of classic boats left to enjoy. There is no way, absolutely no way, that putting epoxy and other polymer based coatings designed for fibreglass and other non-wooden hull forms is a proper "fix." Ever. Apples and oranges, my friend. (Remembering that CPES is a good SEALER for use under paint and varnish.) Good stuff in its place and bad stuff where it doesn't belong. Simply put, wood moves and plastic doesn't... even "flexible" plastic. Wood breathes and plastic doesn't, even epoxy, which is to some extent permeable. Please, oh please, if people would just let go of this "encapsulation" horse****e! There is no such thing. If you want that kind of punishment, try building a perpetual motion machine or turning lead into gold and you'll at least stay dry while you go broke. Just don't go there. If you want to repair or restore a wooden boat, simply remove the broken and rotten stuff and replace it JUST THE WAY IT WAS BUILT IN THE FIRST PLACE! The next time it has to be repaired, that will then be possible and, potentially, the boat could last forever. Cover it with crap and that's the last work anybody is ever going to do on her.... next stop the chainsaw and the landfill.

Simply put, if you want an "like new" boat, then replace the worn out parts with new parts... don't just slap more parts on top of it. And, in that vein, laminating wood on top of a traditionally built hull is really stupid. The old stuff wants and needs to move. The new stuff won't. The boat will tear herself apart, not to mention that she'll be a lot heavier than she was designed to be. (And if money is an object, consider what you will be paying in additional fuel costs to push all the extra weight around.)

She may or may not need some frame replacement or sistering. She may need some work done to her floors. If so, bite the bullet and do it right, or have it done right. She apparently needs to be caulked and painted (with driven cotton, not some poly-crap goop). After that, if you do the job right, you'll have a damn fine boat.

It would be a shame to see such a fine boat destroyed by somebody who (admittedly... shows there's hope for you yet) doesn't have a clue what he's doing. Like Pete Culler said, "Experience begins when you start." What he didn't say was, "Make your learning mistakes on a boat that isn't worth much."

good advice to the slather with poo brigade, but practical builders here save wooden boats 2 ways 1. as you mentioned and 2. a variation on what I mentioned. in other words not on the cheap.

[Paul G.]

"Lapwing" Owner: Maurice Burney, Built: 1913, Length: 7.9m, Designed & Built: Bailey & Lowe.
Built in the traditional New Zealand way with full length kauri planks, brass riveted to steam bent tanekaha ribs, pohutukawa stem & knees, and tongue & grooved decks, for Captain James (Cappy) Davies, the present owners grandfather, she was launched at Sulphur Beach, Auckland and named "Lapwing". Powered with a 17/25 hp "Sterling" American built petrol motor, she attained a speed of 10 knots. Sold in 1916 to M J McCutcheon of Tauranga, she appeared again on Lake Taupo as "Pandora". Subsequently used as a fishing boat out of Raglan as "Bonnie", the motor was replaced in 1952 with an English Voyager petrol motor. In 1973 she narrowly escaped being wrecked when the motor failed off the Alderman islands BOP. Purchased by present owner in 1997, she was substantially rebuilt by Harry Richards with fibreglass over 2 3/8 inch treated kaihikatea skins and relaunched near Sulphur Beach in Auckland.

Ive seen lapwing, beautiful dry and very much alive. Harry charges out at 2k per week and he worked on lapwing for the best part of 2 years.

[Bob Cleek]

Bob,

I just wanted to say thank you for "bothering". I also think she is a quality boat, this is why I want to do things the right way. This is why I'm here... on the forum. I've read so many books some with conflicting views that I'm more confused now then when I started this. The sad part about that is that of all the books I've read on the subject of wooden boat repair, not one gives much mention to traditional methods. Any suggestions?

I will definitely consult with a WOODEN boat surveyor. I'm sure it will be money well spent. I'm not looking for the quick fix, I really like this boat and want it to be around for many more years.

Again... thank you

Chapelle's "Boatbuilding," Steward's and Pardey's books on wooden boatbuilding, Bud (Samuel) McIntosh's "How to Build a Wooden Boat" all address correct traditional construction and all are available from the WoodenBoat Store here on line. Essentials for any library.

[Scott Rosen]

How its done here is

1. rout the seams and epoxy in splines
2. epoxy 2 diagonals of 3mm
3. glass

The boat will now last your lifetime

You left out a couple of very important elements. Namely, if the hull is in bad shape, you need to fix it first. Rotten planks, frames floors, keel timbers, stem, etc. need to be replaced. Only then should you consider further modification to the hull.

Splines will not adhere to rotten wood. The new cold-molded layer will not adhere to rotten wood. While it will be stiff, it won't replace the stiffness lost from a bad frames, floors, etc.

If it were my boat, I would repair and replace bad planks, frames, floors, etc. per Cleek.

[Garret]

I'm no expert. I want to make that clear! However, my boat (Alaskan Yellow Cedar on oak frames) was glassed from the W/L down with 5+ layers of cloth & epoxy in 1996. The hull was faired & splined before the epoxy was applied by the former owner & the pics I've seen showed her hull looking quite decent before the glass & epoxy was applied. This picture was taken in late 2007 as I started to remove it all. They say a picture is worth a thousand years.....



I haven't yet mentioned the 250 odd 8" 16 grit disks it took to get it all off.....

[JCosta]

Paul G: Thanks for the comment. Although my budget is open, I think "2k per week" is way out for me!

Bob Cleek: Books are on order... thanks.

Scott Rosen: Good advise. Repair will be number one on my list following the structural survey.

Garret: That’s a disturbing picture... at closer look it appears that not all of the layers of cloth were properly wet out. Was that consistent throughout the hull? What was the extent of your repairs?

I'm heading up to Maine next week for some much needed R&R. Hopefully with my new reading material in hand. When I return I'll be ready to start working on my boat. Please keep the comments and suggestions coming. I'll need all the help I can get!

[Garret]

Garret: That’s a disturbing picture... at closer look it appears that not all of the layers of cloth were properly wet out. Was that consistent throughout the hull? What was the extent of your repairs?

Well - I realized upon 2nd look that the above pic was a shot of the rudder. However the hull that was "under glass" had similar damage over about 20% of the hull - all in spots that did not want to dry out. The boat is a 1941 52' sloop that was glassed from about 3" above the w/l down to & including the ballast - IOW, everything below the w/l. I had areas that sounded (when tapping with a hammer) like delaminations. They weren't - what happened was that the top 1/8-1/4" of the 1 1/2" planking separated from the rest of the plank. Many other planks did not look quite as bad, but were reduced in thickness by the delamination.

The bottom was thoroughly wetted - as I ground off about 25 spots to see what I really had before doing the entire hull. Every spot had full epoxy penetration through the glass.

The planks above the w/l are in amazingly good shape (see below) & 95% original - just a few repairs from impacts over the years - but they were never glassed. Repairs? Intensive. Approx. 35-40 (not done yet) frames will have at least 4' of the bottom end replaced - scarfing into good frame wood above the w/l & about 40% of the bottom planks are being replaced. The horn timber is 100% new (see note below) & the rudder will be 100% replaced. About 50% of the deadwood (a small area on this boat) will be replaced. Finally, the entire bottom is being refastened - as the trapped moisture did a number on many of the screws (all bronze).

Note: the horn timber was what prompted all this work. The boat lives in Maine & a few years back I missed draining one section of bilge (this will not happen again as it'll have proper limber holes!) before winter. Because the 'glass prevents water escaping when on the hard, the water sat there until one day it froze & cracked the horn timber wide enough for me to stick my hand in through it & touch the propeller shaft. IOW - about a 1" wide crack the width of the 8"x10" timber.

Side planks & glassed bottom. This is right after hand scraping the entire hull above the w/l.

[Paul G.]

just glassing is not what professionals do, they add diagonals- then glass. Expensive but you have a cold molded hull.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

What Cleek said. I own wooden boats. and I repair them using wood.

[Paul G.]

What Cleek said. I own wooden boats. and I repair them using wood.

Off course wood is the best particularly for plank on frame, but it all depends on the boat and the condition, most boats down here were built of 2 or 3 skins to start with, even 100 years ago. Generally smaller boats work better. As I said it is a proven and time tested method used by practical professional boatbuilders, these builders dont give a toss what the guy on the internet forum said.

[Mike Vogdes]

You left out a couple of very important elements. Namely, if the hull is in bad shape, you need to fix it first. Rotten planks, frames floors, keel timbers, stem, etc. need to be replaced. Only then should you consider further modification to the hull.

Splines will not adhere to rotten wood. The new cold-molded layer will not adhere to rotten wood. While it will be stiff, it won't replace the stiffness lost from a bad frames, floors, etc.

If it were my boat, I would repair and replace bad planks, frames, floors, etc. per Cleek.

Scott,

My memory isn't as crisp as it use to be but I think "years" ago you mentioned your boat having C Flex below the water line.
Maybe you have since sold that boat or maybe I'm out in left field as usual.... If it is C Flex, hows it holding up? Or are you one of those that ripped it of and went au natural.

I disagree with Cleek with respect to the 37' Egg being a quality built boat. They were production built, and have always had issues with broken frames at the turn of the bilge. Their transoms always seem to have problems as well. You still see plenty of them around and some are kept remarkably original, surely at great expense and labor.

[Bob Adams]

Gee Mike, not all of us can own "quality" custom built yachts. I like mine.



BTW, don't glass her.

[dirtybottom]

So does this product still allow the wood to natuarally swell? What sort of negatives are there from using this product with replacing planks and such? Can you still bottom paint over this? I am about to undertake putting a new bottom on my 18' sea skiff and this seems like a pretty good option. For me to replace the keel and then use this product for the remainder. Would you agree? Thanks for the info and help.

[jalmberg]

Your Egg Harbor is a quality built boat. If you want to increase its present value and watch it hold that value and (when the recession eases) even appreciate, repair it correctly.

<snip>

Like Pete Culler said, "Experience begins when you start." What he didn't say was, "Make your learning mistakes on a boat that isn't worth much."

I'm no expert, but I was going to say pretty much the same thing, but Bob (and Captain Pete) beat me too it.

[Scott Rosen]

Scott,

My memory isn't as crisp as it use to be but I think "years" ago you mentioned your boat having C Flex below the water line.
Maybe you have since sold that boat or maybe I'm out in left field as usual.... If it is C Flex, hows it holding up? Or are you one of those that ripped it of and went au natural.

Good memory. The C-Flex was put on for worm protection, or so I was told. The hull is sound. Where the C-flex peels, I take it off. In other places I've sanded through it over the years. All in all, it was a useless addition to a sound hull living in northern waters. But it doesn't seem to have caused any harm (knock on wood).

[jalmberg]

I was given a 1965 Egg Harbor 37 and I'm in the process of repairing/repainting... well most everything. I spent about 5 months researching online and reading books on boat repair. I'm getting tired of reading about it and want to get working on it. I've been going back and forth about whether to glass the hull below the waterline or not. I was told by the boat yard that hauls it that the hull was "tender" I assume that means that the hull has lost its stiffness and will need refastened. Oh I should mention she has been out of the water for 4 years now. The previous owner had sistered several ribs, turn of bilge, and replaced the transom. He was able to give me pictures of the process.
I was wondering if fiberglass below the waterline, if done correctly, is a good idea and will sure up the hull. I noticed that most of the old caulking has fallen out as well as the cotton, especially along the garboards. I posted a link to some pictures, they don’t tell the whole story, but you can see the outside condition.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/4971079...n/photostream/

This is my first post... I appreciate any help I can get!
John

I decided I could probably contribute more than just a 'me too' response to this thread...

Basically, you have two choices:

1) the traditional route, which means replacing broken bits, re-caulking, etc.
2) the 'modern' route, which is a lot more involved than just slathering everything with epoxy.

To investigate the traditional route, you might want to track down some old books on wooden boat repair. I have a copy of "Wooden Boat Repair Manual" by John Scarlett, which is pretty good. None of these old books are in print anymore, so you will have to find used copes through inter-library loan (always my first stop), or Amazon or ABE Books.

If epoxy/fiberglass sounds like an easier path, you should read the "Wooden Boat Restoration and Repair" manual from West Systems. This book will convince you that the 'modern' approach to wooden boat repair -- done properly -- is not an easy short cut.

You can get a copy here:

http://209.20.76.247/ss/assets/howto...d%20Repair.pdf

If it were me, I'd read these two books on wooden boat repair, so I had some idea of my options, then I'd hire an experience, wooden boat surveyor who can go through the whole boat and give you an idea of what you are up against. It might be that the wood is in pretty good shape and you just need to recaulk and repaint. And wouldn't that be a nice surprise?

If, after the survey, you decide the boat is worth repairing, then the next step might be moving the boat to a place you can work on it in comfort for several months or years. You might need to pull the engine to get at frames, or demolish the interior. You will need a place to store the reusable bits and pieces. Not to mention tools.

This is a big job, and the only way to accomplish big jobs is by breaking them down into a number of smaller jobs, and then starting on the first one.

Good luck!

[Bob Adams]

Looking at your pictures, I think the previous owner may have taken care of the rib issues, I don't see any "hardness" at the turn of the bilge. You need to put in some string cotton (that's what she had as built) put some real squishy sealant in the seams, like Slick Seam and get 'er wet. Note, you can't have too many pumps on hand when you launch

[JCosta]

Paul G, Peter Malcolm Jardine: I appreciate the comments.

Mike Vogdes: She may be a "production built" boat but I think its worth saving. The issues that you mentioned, broken frames and transom, have all been addressed by the previous owner. I think the important thing here is that I'm a person looking to learn about and restore a great wooden boat regardless of its pedigree.

Bob Adams: Thanks for the comment and... great looking boat!
I will try to add some pictures of the work the previous owner had done to the ribs. I'll have to scan them in because they’re not digital. I met with the previous owner’s son just yesterday, he had a new started for the port engine, and he said the same thing. Just get some Slick Seam and get 'er wet.

dirtybottom: Which product are you referring to, we have discussed a few here.

jalmberg: Thanks for taking the time to comment and the book suggestion... my library is growing. I think I owe it to the boat to go the traditional route. After all it’s why I wanted a wooden boat in the first place. The yard where it’s kept has given me the space and time to do the work... at a price of course. As I said the previous owner had sistered several ribs, turn of bilge, and replaced the transom. He was able to give me pictures of the process. It is a big job and a little overwhelming to think about sometimes but I feel it will all be worth it. Breaking it up into smaller jobs is sound advice.

[Mikeal67]

Hi I have the same boat a 1967 37" egg harbor . I have had some very good results in repainting my boat . I stripped all the paint off the boat . applied as much CPES to the bare wood as it would take . I then Primed it with Interlux PreKote and painted with ZSpar 99 gloss white . Take a good look at all of your windows. I had to remove all of the windows from the boat as they were leaking more water into the boat then I had imagined. I removed all of the window track and discovers a lot of rot . It ran deep down the side of the wheel house . I dug out as much of the rot as i could and the saturated with CPES. I then rebedded the window sills and tracks.
The paint has held without peeling for 3 years and still looks good . I'm not saying this is the best way to do it , it was just the way my friend Bill taught me .I haver attached some pics of the work done
http://s789.photobucket.com/albums/y...view=slideshow
Good luck , it's lots of work and it never ends
Mike

[chuckt]

I think JOhn put it well. Doing an epoxy/plywood bottom is not a "shortcut." In my admittedly limited experience, it is likely it is more work and more expensive. And you have a very different type bottom. So I think it depends on what type bottom you want--not how much work you think you might save. Either way you should fix any underlying issues.

[JCosta]

Mikeal67
I found the link to your egg pictures several months ago while doing research... your boat looks great. I have the same window issues and plan to rebuild them also. I'm very interested in the process you used on the hull.

chuckt
Thanks for the comment, my plan is to have a survey/professional look at the hull before I proceed. She may be in better shape that I think... I hope!

[beachgeek]

Have you put this in the water yet? How long ago did you do this? I'd be interested to hear about the results.

Only glass it if your willing to make it super strong and thick
otherwise, it is going to crack where the plank edges meet.

You can do what I did use permaflex on the bottom
clean out all the seams
sand off all the paint
repair any broken frames
you need to make the hull in good shape or your just wasting your time
Force black PL premium polyurethane roof sealant into all the cleaned seams and fair any cracks with it.
You can sand this smooth with random orbit after it sets
paint on several coats of Permaflex from www.sanitred.com

You should consider lining the inside of the shaft log. It was lead lined and that just decays after 40 years
I lined mine with some liquidtight conduit

[sdowney717]

It has been in the water since last summer 2010
So far been perfectly fine.
No leaks at all anywhere. Pumps never run according to the live aboard next to me.
Most people are pretty impressed with how it turned out.
So far it just grows stringy green algae.
Everything or anything on the hull, if you rub with your hand completely sloughs off.

I have paid very close attention to how the hull is holding and everything that I can see looks like the day it went in.
while it was on land, the bilge held rain water for several years as I worked on it, and it did not swell, crack nothing moved at all.

It still holds rain water. All the water in the bilge is fresh.
I did seal the rear partitioning bulk head between engine room and aft cockpit lazarette. Did this thinking if I took on water over the stern, it would not flood the whole boat and sink it.
Or if a leak developed etc...

[sdowney717]

So far it looks like I will never have to bottom paint my boat ever again.
Think of the cost saving, time and money.
I used the sand color on the bottom.

Since the growth just easily comes off and the sanitred permaflex remains unchanged then the boat hull has a new nature, changing from a lot of hull maintenance to almost none.

I still have issues with repairing sliding windows channels.
everything prior eventually leaked water thru even epoxy would crack.
I had tired to keep it somewhat bright but nothing in there would last.
Just turned ugly, peeled, leaked, rotted. Then needed recoating, fought that every couple years.
So after my last fix, I painted on some permaflex and topcoated with some acrylic latex brown paint.
I secured the chrome channels on the sides and top with screws, BUT the bottom channel I glued in with DAP 230 caulk.
So it was remove all hardware.
Repair replace wood.
Coat inner channel with permaflex. bottom and then going up front and rear but not the top channel.
Paint with acylic paint
reinstall window hardware and windows
And it has been perfect so far.

So far done only one side and I should do the other side.

[boattruck]

Costa et al, I have been around long enough to see many boats with many types of repairs, and with a very few exceptions, the 'Wonder Goo' approach has been a resounding failure. With all due respect to SDowner's project, I would need to see a report on the condition at 10 and 20 years before I was inclined to follow this path, although I fully support his right to do any thing he wants with his boat, and will be interested in hearing reports, 6 or 9 months is no test...
I have done a few cold mold skin jobs with some success, but I think you would find it more cost effective to stick with tried and true plank on frame repairs for this boat. Eggs where built light, and as they age this leaves them vulnerable to particular problems, sound like the prior owner has begun dealing with these, I would continue along this line, it sounds like your yard has neither the skills nor inclination to be of much help along these lines, and as the learning curve is steep, I think you are going to want some talented experienced help, my first goal would be to find a local 'Guru' who; 1. Is able and willing to assess your projects current state. 2. Able to help you do a project 'triage' approach to her repair plan. 3. Is able to work where the boat is, and is able and willing to communicate what he/she will charge you, and seems like somebody you can trust, both in his capabilities and in his honesty and ability to help you learn your lessons about restoring your boat. This person may be hard to find, seek referrals from everybody who might have a lead or has done similar projects, the yard may also know of some contractors who can be of help.
The repairs she will need are likely pretty straight forward, the important thing is to be able to prioritize every front you need to fight on( Eggs are notorious for trouble in the cabin sides around the windows etc. ) you don't want to shoot your 'whole clip' into the bottom and find that the cabin-side is toast, or that you need a rebuild on one of the engines...
Wishing you the best, Cheers, BT

[Pete Chiano]

Bob, Great advice! For every problem there is a solution that is simple, fast...and generally wrong. There are no shortcuts. Above the rail I like epoxy protected structures, but below the waterline, the original construction methods lasted this long, that should tell you something. Far more important is the condition of the frames, garboard, keel, keel bolts, stem, deadwood. transom, and all underwater metal. If all of these bits are up to snuff, then you can abandon all the band-aid approaches being considered here. CPES as a sealer, but no 'perma gluing' of anything below the waterline. That said, for NEW construction, epoxy saturated / double or triple planked then glassed is a whole different deal. Get her sound, keep her painted and ventilated, and enjoy your beautiful boat.

[sdowney717]

makes no difference to me but
If I came back here in 10 or even 20 years and said it was still fine, it would not make any difference. People already made up their minds about something. And for some, unless you have personal experience your unlikely to experiment. And I dont need to hear all the arguments, which we already all know what they are.