Large cabin small sailboat.

[Reardon]

I've been reviewing such as the Mr. Short's Great Pelican, and Selway Fisher's Goshawk, Hartleys, Birdwatcher/IMB style (or lack thereof) box boats, as well as several catboats, etc...

My length limit is 17'. The boat will be used on the Puget Sound. I'd really like to build Welsford's Swaggie, but my garage isn't large enough. I thought about adding on to my garage in order to do it, but any addition would encroach into my lot's setbacks. I can't have any temporary shelter on the property. Our CC&R's don't allow us to have them... or boats... or fun... I digress.

What other designs should I be considering?

Thanks in advance!

[Paul Pless]

[Bob Roncace]

Have you looked at the CLC Pocketship?

[tmoll]

You didn't indicate what your lower limit in size is. If not too small to fit your needs, have you considered the Fafnir or Tideway 14?
Tom

[Figment]

Is 17' the limit for building (limit 17' LOD) or the limit for mooring (limit 17' LOA)?

Add a bowsprit and/or boomkin and/or barndoor rudder to a 17' hull and you have a very different boat than simply 17' LOA.

[James McMullen]

A question. . . .why do you think you need a big cabin or even a cabin at all? A boat that small is going to have a cramped and uncomfortable cabin no matter how you slice it. You're not going to want to hang out in that space in such a small boat any more than necessary. Plus, there is an entire network of campsites up and down the Sound called the Washington Water Trail that lets you not even need a cabin at all to sleep in for cruising these waters.

I think an open boat or a small boat with a big ol' cockpit is much more pleasant for the daylight sailing hours where you spend all your waking moments than a boat where the accomodations for while you are unconscious takes up so much valuable real estate. For a max 17' boat, you're really not big enough to have both a good cabin and a good sailing cockpit--so why compromise on the important part?

[Wayne Jeffers]

. . . A boat that small is going to have a cramped and uncomfortable cabin no matter how you slice it. . .

Yes, a boat only 17’ LOD is going to have a cabin so small it will only be accessible by small and young (flexible) people. Or Smurfs.

Having proper headroom seems a major issue on boats less than about 21’. The only boats smaller than 21’ LOD with good head room that come to mind are Iain Oughtred’s Wee Seal and B&B’s Belhaven 19.

I suggest you should build a 17’ open boat with dry storage and convenient arrangement for a cockpit tent (or camp ashore.) Or go a little bigger if you really want a cabin.

Wayne

[Black-Jack]

Ive read nothing good on the pelican boats - YMMV

[JimD]

Yup, large cabins on small sailboats is a thorny issue. Build the longest, widest plan you can find. Ie a catboat or the SF Goshawk and resist any temptation to make the cabin bigger than planned. Goshawk max headroom is listed at 4'2" which is just barely adequate for a shorter person. If you tried to make it higher you won't be able to see over it from the tiller and that could drive a sailor nuts:

[willmarsh3]

Some ideas for short boats with cabins are here.

http://www.jimsboats.com/15sep09.htm

They look like variations on Phil Bolgers Birdwatcher

[Venchka]

Why don't you go to Bellingham and buy the original Wee Seal design Opus? It was still listed on craigslist last weekend. Do it. Before I'm sorely tempted to drive up there and bring it home.

I've been reviewing such as the Mr. Short's Great Pelican, and Selway Fisher's Goshawk, Hartleys, Birdwatcher/IMB style (or lack thereof) box boats, as well as several catboats, etc...

My length limit is 17'. The boat will be used on the Puget Sound. I'd really like to build Welsford's Swaggie, but my garage isn't large enough. I thought about adding on to my garage in order to do it, but any addition would encroach into my lot's setbacks. I can't have any temporary shelter on the property. Our CC&R's don't allow us to have them... or boats... or fun... I digress.

What other designs should I be considering?

Thanks in advance!

[Thorne]

Tell us more about the garage limits - building or storage? As I discovered, what you think you can fit in a garage for building and what really fits are two very different sizes! And for storage you'll have to deal with the trailer tongue and/or any aft overhang, which also increases the required dimensions.

It is possible to modify the trailer with either a folding tongue (risky unless engineered right) or a removable sleeve (easier to make safe but more work), allowing the trailer to match the length of the boat. The Great Pelican might just fit, but you'd not be able to walk around either end of the boat once the garage door was closed (assuming the 17' you list above is the interior dimension) -- and you'd have to pull the bowsprit inboard.

The SF Pelican would be a better fit, and you'd actually be able to build it in the garage, but no cabin. They still are quite large for their length, and I've beach-camped alongside several of them here in Northern CA.

I take it you are not looking for a sail and oar boat, but rather something that sails and motors with an outboard - correct? As above you'll probably be better off with either a boom tent, or some sort of temporary fabric dodger over an open boat -- more height, less weight, and more open boat for the nice weather.

[willmarsh3]

This William Garden Eel has a cabin top that raises. That might be one workable solution in a small boat.



IIRC the plans have that as an option as well as the open day sailor option.

You say your garage is 17 feet. How wide is it? If I assume it's 8 feet wide then a double ender of 18 1/2 feet like the eel should *just fit* provided you take off the bowsprit, boomkin and rudder when storing it.

Given your CC&Rs you'd have cast the keel somewhere else. Also for any boat construction I'd look at renting space somewhere else for the build rather than try to build in that small of a space. I built an 11 foot shellback dinghy in a space that was 19' wide x 15 feet deep without space issues but that's approaching the limit.

Also given such a beautiful boat how could any HOA board fail to be charmed? *grin*

Other pictures:

http://www.willmarsh3.net/wg/web_eel1.jpg
http://www.willmarsh3.net/wg/web_eel3.jpg
http://www.willmarsh3.net/wg/web_eel4.jpg

[tmoll]

Why don't you go to Bellingham and buy the original Wee Seal design Opus? It was still listed on craigslist last weekend. Do it. Before I'm sorely tempted to drive up there and bring it home.

Good advice - I have severe lust for this boat myself. If I didn't live at the other end of the country, Opus would already be tied to my dock.
Tom

[huisjen]

Home built 18' double ender based on Ian Oughtred's Wee Seal 18. Okoume 6866 marine plywood and System Three epoxies. Completed in 1998. Shallow draft keel. She sails best on a beam reach with 10-20kts of wind. A bit of a poke tight into the wind with a chop. We've had her in 25kts of wind and she did just great on reefed main. No cracks or delamination. Very safe boat.

That "a bit of a poke" bit is a little disheartening. Nice though.

Dan

[Woxbox]

Don't overlook those 16' by 8.5' catamarans. Maximum room and stability for the length.

[AnalogKid]

Pelin Caribou? I think you can still get plans from Frank Pelin, you won't find many pictures though unless one comes up on TradeMe. Its a modern looking Bermudan sloop-rigged cruiser with a cabin that can accommodate 3 or 4 depending on the layout used.

[James McMullen]

I've seen the Wee Seal Opus up close. The guy who built Opus decided to "improve" it by simply leaving the centerboard out. That's why Opus won't point, not because Iain Oughtred screwed up. If I were to have bought Opus, I'd have to budget in retrofitting the specified centerboard--which would still make that boat a pretty good deal. She needs a contrasting color for the sheerstrake too, to lower the apparent height of the sheer. A few simple changes and you'd have a very nice boat for less than the cost of the materials alone for building one from scratch.

[Woxbox]

Here's a photo of Miss Cindy:

[Bob Roncace]

What is CC & R?
just curious.....

Community Covenants and Restrictions, possibly?

[Wayne Jeffers]

. . . A few simple changes and you'd have a very nice boat for less than the cost of the materials alone for building one from scratch.

Another forumite and I were discussing this very point in an email exchange . . . If Opus were 2000 miles closer to SE Ohio, I would probably drive out and buy her. I have a history of doing that sort of thing.

Wayne

[Chris Setzler]

I've seen the Wee Seal Opus up close. The guy who built Opus decided to "improve" it by simply leaving the centerboard out. That's why Opus won't point, not because Iain Oughtred screwed up. If I were to have bought Opus, I'd have to budget in retrofitting the specified centerboard--which would still make that boat a pretty good deal. She needs a contrasting color for the sheerstrake too, to lower the apparent height of the sheer. A few simple changes and you'd have a very nice boat for less than the cost of the materials alone for building one from scratch.

Well, that answers the question many here were asking. I guess his comment that Opus was based on, etc. should have been a clue.

[Peter Belenky]

She needs a contrasting color for the sheerstrake too, to lower the apparent height of the sheer.

It's not just apparent. Comparing the photo with the plans, one sees that there were supposed to be just three planks clear of the water amidships, while the photo shows at least another half plank. That suggests that Opus is significantly under-ballasted.

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Ca...Wee%20Seal.pdf

[JimD]

No offense, Iain, et al, but Wee Seal looks like an illustration out of a children's story book. Perhaps that was the intent. Hard to believe it came from the same hand as the beautiful Eun Mara. At least repaint it and get rid of all that white.

[JimD]

Here's a photo of Miss Cindy:

Woxbox, there's been talk of Miss Cindy before and its a very impressive story. Do you know if there is more info on the cut of her sails, the battens, reefing, etc?

[Reardon]

To answer a few questions:

My space... 17'6" from inside of garage door to the back wall, and 18' wide. This is not where the boat will be stored upon completion.

Why do I need a large cabin? I don't really know. It rains a lot here and cabins keep things dry? The boat will be intended for use by man and two boys. Maybe a large cabin is not so important. My only experience has been with dinghies/rowboats/canoes. I'm currently working on a B and B Spindrift for the boys to use at a local lake that they like to spend time at during the summer. Upon completion of the spindrift, I'd like to begin work on something for the three of us to explore the Sound with.

I don't really have any interested in buying a boat. That would deprive me of the pleasure of building it.

I expect that because of my lack of experience that I will build a boat that won't be exactly what I need but in its use, I learn more about what I want/need, and will then have to build another one... oh, well... it's the kind of problem I look forward to having.

Thanks for all of the advice.

[Reardon]

Does anyone know the Eel's dimension without the boomkin, bowsprit, and rudder?

This William Garden Eel has a cabin top that raises. That might be one workable solution in a small boat.



IIRC the plans have that as an option as well as the open day sailor option.

You say your garage is 17 feet. How wide is it? If I assume it's 8 feet wide then a double ender of 18 1/2 feet like the eel should *just fit* provided you take off the bowsprit, boomkin and rudder when storing it.

Given your CC&Rs you'd have cast the keel somewhere else. Also for any boat construction I'd look at renting space somewhere else for the build rather than try to build in that small of a space. I built an 11 foot shellback dinghy in a space that was 19' wide x 15 feet deep without space issues but that's approaching the limit.

Also given such a beautiful boat how could any HOA board fail to be charmed? *grin*

Other pictures:

http://www.willmarsh3.net/wg/web_eel1.jpg
http://www.willmarsh3.net/wg/web_eel3.jpg
http://www.willmarsh3.net/wg/web_eel4.jpg

[JimD]

That's not much room to build a boat so you'll have to be very organized. With a crew of three you'll want as big a cockpit as possible. At least if you want to be able to move around without constantly being in each other's way. And the boys likely won't mind roughing it under a cockpit tent for camp cruising. I think a small cuddy would likely work well. One problem with a big cabin on a small boat is that the whole experience of what you're doing changes. With a small (mostly) open boat you will feel like you're sailing. Put a big cabin on the same boat and suddenly its all about the cabin. It starts to feel like a little house boat with a sail on it and what you are doing isn't so much sailing as it is transporting a cabin by use of sails. If that makes any sense.

[donald branscom]

I've been reviewing such as the Mr. Short's Great Pelican, and Selway Fisher's Goshawk, Hartleys, Birdwatcher/IMB style (or lack thereof) box boats, as well as several catboats, etc...

My length limit is 17'. The boat will be used on the Puget Sound. I'd really like to build Welsford's Swaggie, but my garage isn't large enough. I thought about adding on to my garage in order to do it, but any addition would encroach into my lot's setbacks. I can't have any temporary shelter on the property. Our CC&R's don't allow us to have them... or boats... or fun... I digress.

What other designs should I be considering?

Thanks in advance!

Well those cc&R's and so forth can be worked around. Know what I mean?
You could have the garage doors open with a tarp or board laying on top temporarily.
You could leave part of the boat sticking out of the garage, and cover the boat with a tarp. No rule against a tarp ON the boat. The garage door could have a bulge in it. NO law against garage door shapes.

Just read the CC&R's and work around them.

[Maximus]

http://u.jimdo.com/www15/o/s73b0deaf.../std/image.jpg

http://u.jimdo.com/www15/o/s73b0deaf.../std/image.jpg

or the bigger version

http://u.jimdo.com/www15/o/s73b0deaf...las-bubble.jpg

http://u.jimdo.com/www15/o/s73b0deaf.../std/image.jpg

[Venchka]

You also need to pay close attention to the height of the boat and height of building frame supporting the boat and the verticle opening to get the boat out of the garage.
James, thanks for the first hand heads up about Opus. That explains why it has not sold for less than the new cost of plywood. It may also explain Wee Seal II.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Does anyone know the Eel's dimension without the boomkin, bowsprit, and rudder?

18' 6"

The bowsprit and boomkin are in addition. The rudder is inboard, forward of the mizzen mast.

You can find the plans thru the WoodenBoat Store. She's covered in the book Thirty Wooden Boats.

Wayne

[Woxbox]

Jim -- all I know about Miss Cindy is from the extensive blog the builder/skipper wrote, which I believe you've read, too. It is a great read. I didn't think before that that a 16 foot cruising cat could possibly work. But there it is.

For an adult and two boys, I'd be thinking of a cockpit big enough to sleep the boys, and a berth inside for Dad. That makes lots of designs viablr options.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

To answer a few questions:

My space... 17'6" from inside of garage door to the back wall, and 18' wide. ..

That is a 24 foot 9 inch diagonal.....

Wharam's Tiki 21?

[SeaB]

Does anyone know how the 15' or 17' v-bottom catboats by Wittholz perform under sail?

[Venchka]

Don't know about catboat sailing qualities. I see you are in Nova Scotia. Back in 2002-2003-2004, there was a charter fleet in Nova Scotia based on Wittholz catboats. Are they still around to rent? In the meantime, here's something from the Wayback Machine. The Wittolz 17 is a BIG lump of boat.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...683#post645683

[SeaB]

Thanks for the link, do you recall where in N.S. this charter fleet was located, Halifax? Lunenberg? other? Looked at a 15' Wittholz design a couple of years ago it was huge couldn't believe it was only 15' till the tape came out. They had an old 4hp make and break Atlantic in the cockpit. It had the short cuddy, and I remember thinking another foot or two in length and you could get a berth in.

I would certainly go with an outboard on a boat like this. A person needs to plan on a long shaft motor, and possibly a well to get it even lower. Especially if there is any wave action where you intend to use the boat. Found that out pretty quickly!! Little or no wind, big swell, following sea, throwing the prop clear on each swell.

[JimD]

A motor well is a good idea.

[Woxbox]

Re the Tiki 21. Two cabins, but extremely tight.

[Venchka]

Thanks for the link, do you recall where in N.S. this charter fleet was located, Halifax? Lunenberg? other? Looked at a 15' Wittholz design a couple of years ago it was huge couldn't believe it was only 15' till the tape came out. They had an old 4hp make and break Atlantic in the cockpit. It had the short cuddy, and I remember thinking another foot or two in length and you could get a berth in.

I would certainly go with an outboard on a boat like this. A person needs to plan on a long shaft motor, and possibly a well to get it even lower. Especially if there is any wave action where you intend to use the boat. Found that out pretty quickly!! Little or no wind, big swell, following sea, throwing the prop clear on each swell.

I lost all of my links in a hard drive swap. I GOOGLED and came up empty. As I recall, the boats were on/near Bras D'Or. Sorry I can't be of any further help. It looks like several web pages in the area north of Halifax are gone. Big Pond Boatworks is gone. Sorry to see that. Good luck. Keep looking.

[SeaB]

Thanks, that likely means either Baddeck on the Bra d'Or, or possibly Sydney, C.B. Have a fellow AOMCI [Antique Outboard Motor Club] club member in Big Pond, so can check there as well.

[Jay Greer]

Just a reminder that John Guzzwell sailed around the world in his 20' yawl "Trekka" 1957-59.
If built on the diagonal in your garage, I think you should be able to build this boat.
http://www.johnguzzwell.com/Trekka.html
I believe that this design would suit your needs more comfortably as well as offer better performance than many of the shorter boats you may be considering.
Jay

[JimD]

I think Trekka would be a bad choice. It wasn't designed for comfortable day sailing or over nighting for three. This pic doesn't do the cockpit justice. Its actually very small. And the keel is fixed, deep, and heavy:

[Zane Lewis]

How about something like the Hartley 16.
Sitting room cabin, 2 bunks, Fit a boom tent etc.
These are still popular in NZ and Aussie.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~upwi...e/gallery.html
Building a wooden one in a space similar to yours.


very old pic from one of the TS16 websites.

They also have a very strong racing following as well.




Just google "Hartley 16" or "TS 16"

cheer's
Zane

[SeaB]

So not really a singlehander or family boat as it appears to need crew weight out on the rail?

[Jay Greer]

[QUOTE=JimD;2668673]I think Trekka would be a bad choice. It wasn't designed for comfortable day sailing or over nighting for three. This pic doesn't do the cockpit justice. Its actually very small. And the keel is fixed, deep, and heavy:



[/QUOTE
Yes, I agree to some extent. But, Trekka is a decent and stable sailing boat that will handle most any sea condition. Every boat that is built to size constraints is a compromise in one way or another. Having cruised the Channel Islands in a converted Glouster dory, with an added center board, I am convinced that I would prefer of boat with excellent sailing qualities and no centerboard trunk to climb over! Certainly the "Trekka" design meets those requirments and then some. The small cockpit was a prerequisite for long distance open ocean sailing. It should not be much of a problem to design a larger cockpit for the boat. A swing drop keel could also be designed to be housed in a water tight trunk that would not extend above the cabin sole. I also prefer the ketch rig as it can keep the boat balanced under a myrid of wind conditions. When at anchor, the boat, with only the mizzen set will not charge around the hook like a beast on a leash!
Jay

[esingleman]

CLC has a small cabin boat called pocket boat, pocket ship, something like that, that is featured on this site somewhere. I think it is 16 or 17 feet

[Yeadon]

Phil Bolger's Chebacco, 20 feet. Maybe she can be built corner to corner in your garage?

What about Devlin's Nancy's China? That one is 15'2.

[Venchka]

Well, if you consider building on the diagonal, Iain Oughtred's Wee Seal II deserves consideration.

As for the Hartleys, I guess you need some weight on the rail if you wish to sail:
A. In a bazzilion knots of breeze.
and
B. Abstain from reefing.
Normal folks could make the boat handle nicely with a reef or two if the breeze picks up. Moderation, hey?

[Alan H]

Having seen a few of Devlin's Nancy's China...if you just gotta gotta gotta gotta have a cabin in your little boat, then that's a good design to work with.

However, having spent a lot of time racing and cruising a Cal 20, the idea of a cabin in anything much smaller than that simply doesn't make sense to me. Then again, I've never sailed a WWP 19, and folks putt around in those all the time. Oh, and I'm 6' 2" and about 280 pounds. LOL Seriously, 15 -16 -17 feet is the size of many performance dinghies. I would save the cabin for something that's 20 feet - plus.