Yet another Abby Thread - informed consent

[Rational Root]

Did she truly understand that if it went badly, there was a very real chance that she would not come home. I don't mean a theoretical possibility, I mean a very real chance.

If she went out knowing that she might not come home, if she truly understood that, and if her parents did too, then fine, I don't know if I'd want my children to follow in her footsteps, ask me in 13 years. But fine, they knew the picture, they took a grown up decision.

If they did not have that understanding, then i believe she had no business being out there. (yes, my opinion, not fact)

Bear in mind that I've spent a long time involved in activities for which fatality statistics are collected, I have at least some background to make this comment.

I am uncertain if I admire her courage and determination, or if I think she did a stupid thing. I guess I'd want to talk to her face to face to decide that one.

It is amazing how polarized the forum seems to be in terms of Pro/Con Abby.

I'd like to raise up my flag as undecided.

Just my thoughts.

[Roger Long]

Did she truly understand that if it went badly, there was a very real chance that she would not come home.

Of course not. It's been pretty well proven that people that age have not fully developed the brain connections to put such facts in the same context as adults.

However, so what? Parents of teenagers (I'm one) grapple with this every day. Do they truly understand that, if they get in the back seat of a car packed with peers egging on the driver while everyone is goofing around 30 miles over the speed limit there is a good chance they won't be coming home?

Looking at the death rate around this part of the world and considering the incredible upside of a young person rising to this kind of challenge and having this kind of experience, just as well in the southern ocean as hanging around at home.

The boat selection was badly flawed however.

BTW, I'm blessed with sons of unusually good sense.

[Ian McColgin]

One advantage of sailing is that one either rises to the occasion or drops out. Remember that Tanya Aibie (spelling impossible) was pretty much a pot smoking derelict bike messenger (OK Joe, I know it makes you tough at least) with a family jaunt-joke trans-Atlantic when her dad - gotta love this guy - gave her the choise, one time offer, college or a boat to sail around the world and make her name. In her book she is quite candid about the stunt/self-promotion/learning experience complex of motivations.

Maybe at that age they don't know when they get started but they grow with it.

[wizbang 13]

Pot smoking derelict!! Ian, you make that sound like a bad thing!!

[skuthorp]

Of course not. It's been pretty well proven that people that age have not fully developed the brain connections to put such facts in the same context as adults.

However, so what? Parents of teenagers (I'm one) grapple with this every day. Do they truly understand that, if they get in the back seat of a car packed with peers egging on the driver while everyone is goofing around 30 miles over the speed limit there is a good chance they won't be coming home?

Looking at the death rate around this part of the world and considering the incredible upside of a young person rising to this kind of challenge and having this kind of experience, just as well in the southern ocean as hanging around at home.

The boat selection was badly flawed however.

BTW, I'm blessed with sons of unusually good sense.

In most of the world children half her age are working for a living. Some have no parents through disease, some are slaves, some are 'soldiers', many are starving, some are already dead. Girl children hav a particularly hard time of course. They grow up really quickly, no excuses about immature brains will help there. I hear the research but it sounds like mostly a cop out designed for smart, expensive lawyers to me.

[Ian McColgin]

Nah, wiz. A good thing, especially combined with all that biking. Just not as good as circumnavigator. It's hard for anyone that young to write much of real insight except, of course, about the heartbreak of love. Yet her book is wonderful.

[mizzenman]

I don't know if any one can really comprehend death, no matter the age.

[TimH]

Does the 17 year old that gets cornered by the US Marines recruiter realize that in a year he might be another statistic in some foreign country?

[Y Bar Ranch]

Does the 17 year old that gets cornered by the US Marines recruiter realize that in a year he might be another statistic in some foreign country?

Only if he's ever stepped foot inside a theatre or turned on the TV.

Same goes for the X-Games athletes. Rock climbers. Extreme skiers. Awful lot of young kids out there pushing boundaries. I certainly did it when young, though without my parent's knowledge mostly.

[Don Z.]

Does the 17 year old that gets cornered by the US Marines recruiter realize that in a year he might be another statistic in some foreign country?

I did when the recruiter contacted me.

Non sibi, sed...

[The549]

kids before going into the army know and can only know about the same as Abby before she said out...I thought we were talking about hearing vs knowing and understanding with context etc. That said 99 percent of media coverage on this is making me quite apathetic in my hopes to preserve our future freedoms.

[htom]

I'm convinced that at least half of the people my age -- 63! -- still are not capable of truly informed consent. I see them at auto accidents, still, pushing their thumbs down on their index finger, like they were trying to change the channel on their TV. Chatting on the phone while driving. ... The list of idiot things we do is endless. Usually we get away with them, which is why we keep doing them. Sailing around the world, with help available via radio-satphone-internet, is another. Doing that versus drunken driving home every weekend she was gone? Her odds are probably better sailing, even if she's not the one drinking and driving.

Cornered by a USMC recruiter? Not me. I looked him up, asked questions, signed up. Probably would not have had the career I'd joined to have, but the Corps had a lot of offerings I'd never even thought of before I joined, and they were very,very tempting. Sadly, the body couldn't meet the specs once the seizures started, so the recommendations that the USMC send me to med school to be a doctor, corpsman school, armorer school, scout school, and OCS after any of those, all sit there, unanswered. Death comes to us all, we can't avoid it. We can achieve it doing good for others, and ourselves, or by waiting for it to turn off our TV. Easy choice, for me.

[Larks]

Does the 17 year old that gets cornered by the US Marines recruiter realize that in a year he might be another statistic in some foreign country?

Someone posted in another thread that the world’s armies rely on kids of that age having little idea of the consequences of their actions or at least the belief in themselves that it won’t happen to them. Fair comment I thought, I remember having a pretty good idea that all the stupid things that I used to do had the potential to be disastrous to someone else but the firm belief that it wouldn’t be so to me.

[Dan Newton]

Don't we have laws governing this type of behavior? What about the 'age of consent'? In America, don't you have to be 18 to make that kind of decision?
Philosophically, you can argue that it would be good for her to understand the probability of dying on that Fool's Errand, but ultimately her parents made that call, I'd bet.
Yes I know this is only hindsight but without the reality tv angle, this didn't add up for me, in terms of what might reasonably motivate someone who KNEW the odds to let a 16 year old girl go.
Her-

[Captain Intrepid]

Here, she's old enough to have a kid, I'd say that's a much bigger responsibility than sailing around the world.

[Dan Newton]

If only her parents had seen it that way.

[Tom Wilkinson]

Here, she's old enough to have a kid, I'd say that's a much bigger responsibility than sailing around the world.

Hmm, how does that work? What's the age where you are old enough to have a kid? And if one gets pregnant before that age are they forced to abort?

[Captain Intrepid]

Hmm, how does that work?

Well, the legal age of consent is 16. So that's when society deems you old enough to understand the ramifications of sex, which include pregnancy.

[htom]

In some states, it's 14 (I don't think it's 12 anymore, anywhere (except in Romeo and Juliet.))

[paladin]

maybe Arkansas........or Tennessee

[Rational Root]

I don't know if any one can really comprehend death, no matter the age.

Drive Motorbikes, Jump out of Planes for a few years, Wander around inside a shipwreck at about 30 meters. You may not comprehend death, but you get to know when he's paying you special attention.

"It can't happen to me" gets knocked out of you pretty quick, if you live long enough...

Did I understand the risks I was taking ? Not always, but I don't have to wish my mistakes on others.

I fully believe that you can waste your life in front of the TV just as easily as you can waste it by making a terminal mistake at 17.

Just while you're wasting your time watching TV, nobody realises that the should be mourning you.

D

[rbgarr]

From Sailing Anarchy

Natural Law

Given her experience in long distance, short-handed sailing, we thought Lia Ditton could share a unique light on the Abby Sunderland situation. Did she ever.

In order to venture to the Poles, ‘explorers’ must levy a hefty deposit in case of an emergency pick-up, since unlike in the Southern Atlantic no one will happen to be passing. We are lucky enough that in our sport, the oceans are classified as ‘international waters’ and that in the case of distress, Maritime law dictates that a ship must divert or a rescue operation be undertaken.
In having to escrow the funds for a get-out-of-jail plan, there is a weeding out of potential polar adventurers – those that are not compelling about their rate of success, rarely get the sponsor and simply don’t make it to the ice. With RTW sailing records, there is no such rite of passage. If you have a boat and the gumption to do it, off you go and good luck to you. Mountain climbing is the same. Either we will see you when you return or we won’t. Then along came the PLB and the price of an EPIRB came down and suddenly you could be plucked off the mountain if your sleeping bag blew away.
Age sixteen is the legal borderline between child and adult. Few sixteen year olds are not going to cry and bail for home when it all gets a bit ugly. Jessica Watson was somehow different. She was 16 going on 24. She was confident, a good communicator and she undertook her challenge on her own terms, in a sensible boat, an S&S 34. Her campaign was cute and fun. It had personality. Abby Sunderland might also have had the dream to capture the youngest RTW solo record, but sailing an Open 40, leaving at a time of year when she would undoubtedly experience the full brunt of the Southern hemisphere winter- can these have been Abby’s own decisions?
My feeling about the Abby Sunderland story is one of disappointment. She clearly had a sat phone onboard in order to blog. Why didn’t she call when the mast came down? Why didn’t she have a contingency plan in case the mast came down? Why wasn’t she coached through all of this and instructed to start motoring for the nearest point of land? But there will come another child prodigy or maybe Abby Sunderland will recover ‘Wild Eyes’ and have another go. In a way, I hope she does.

06/16/10

[Lew Barrett]

David, this is what the blooded blue water guys on the forum have been saying (more or less) since the onset of the troubles that hit Abby's boat. It gets a bit extra strident when is defending one position which might (maybe) account for all the ink here. But the gist of the matter is that the
effort was founded as a stunt with a visible "look at me" component that smelled of blatant self promotion and a desire to capitalize (heavily) on any success or failure of the mission. This was accomplished in a very 21st Century style that bears little similarity to the spirit of adventure and sportsmanship that usually characterizes these doings.

How could it not come in for a heavy critique? These threads should now stop proliferating and the whole affair should go away until Abby is old enough and wise enough to do something great without the help of her meddlesome and publicity seeking parents. I'm sure eventually that she will, and I wish her the best in the accomplishment of great things.

Good night Gracie!

[Roger Long]

These three well reasoned posts and articles have completely changed my view of the whole affair. I find them very pursuasive

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com...45&#post725404

http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...6-11&dayid=438

http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...yid=439#Story4

I especially like the idea, "Abby's parents should have been required to spend a winter in the Southern Ocean before letting her do this."

[Brian Palmer]

In all the threads I've scanned on this issue, I have not seen any comparison to Ellen MacArthur. (Perhaps I've missed it.)

She was only a few years older (19) when she circumnavigated Britain and 21 when she sailed her first mini-transat, and 25 when she finished second in the Vendee Globe.

The difference seems that MacArthur was totally consumed by sailing from an early age, and gained experience in more reasonable increments. None of her records were ever considered "stunts," but appear to be the result of honest hard work and careful preparation.

Brian

[WaveSkipper]

Roger, thank you for your research and the references.

I'm concerned that youth, especially young women, cannot grow from Abbey's adventures.

First, she's been brought up to take risks by a strong willed fundamental family that has led her through her schooling, directing what she learns and does not know, and for a 'committed sailor since she was 13' mathematical concepts such as 'pi' were foreign to her. Who else has she learned and who's insight has she gained outside of the direct family?

Second, according to http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/...yid=439#Story4, Latitude wrote on August 28 that the whole Sunderland clan should drive to San Diego to discuss the trip with Stephen Mann of the San Diego-based Wylie 39 Tawodi. That's because Mann and Kathleen Torres, also of San Diego, had just completed sailing the same course that Abby was planning to sail. They did...and "Laurence Sunderland told Mann that it wasn't like they would be going out of their way, because they had to drive to San Diego anyway in order to pick up another $200,000 sponsorship check." So, for a reality TV show and other contracts, sponsorships and $, this youngster set off in a five sealed compartment boat that wouldn't sink with direct connections to a handler and an active blog...almost like being at home with her friends. She just let the boat do the sailing, by satelite instructions.

Third, It will be interesting to see if her committment to sailing will go by the wayside like her brother's interest. He's now an adventurer on a motorcycle...headed from the north to the south of America. I guess someone has to have plots for the reality series...

I agree with the writers in Latitude. The adults in this scenario are teaching the marketing of sponsorships, not the value of actually studying and learning the science behind the risks that they are imposing on their children who, lacking information, do not know any better.

Clearly, the value of a child's life, is less than the committments and sponsorships collected. Where is God and common sense here?