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Thread: The Measurement of Sjogin

  1. #1
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    Default The Measurement of Sjogin

    I'm planning to haul Sjogin for her Summer refit in early July. As you all know Paul Gartside and Francois Vivier are waiting for her measurements to start drawing the plans.

    Some of you nearby have expressed an interest in helping with the measurement process. I've talked with Tom Beaton and he's willing to put Sjogin in one of the shops for a weekend so we'll have a level floor upon which to set up a grid.

    I'm thinking of doing this the weekend of July 17th or 24th. If anyone's still interested please let me know your preference. I have a couple of beds/couches available at home or I may be able to arrange a berth or two at Beaton's.

    I expect the process (once I figure out how to do it) would take a day to record the offsets and a day to record the construction details; maybe less. I have a copy of Boats, a Manual for their Documentation as well as detailed instructions from Paul Gartside. Any advice from the collected wisdom of the Forum will be appreciated.

    Thanks again for your interest.

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  2. #2
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Russ,

    I would like a copy of Paul Gartside's instructions/comments on what he wanted you to do???

    Rod
    Last edited by RodB; 06-15-2010 at 01:53 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ Manheimer View Post
    . I have a copy of Boats, a Manual for their Documentation as well as detailed instructions from Paul Gartside.
    This document was recently published on line.

    It is available as a WB digital edition. Free to all.

    You can also re-read this:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showpost...51&postcount=1

    But I had a hard time downloading from that link.

    It is 80mb, and took just a couple of minutes on the WB site.

    http://www.woodenboat.com/wbstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=74&products _id=765



    Russ I would be glad to help, and either weekend is fine, and camping out on a work bench ala Hughman is fine with me. Clint Chase warned about too many well meaning amateurs being in the way, but I will gladly lend a hand if needed.
    Last edited by SMARTINSEN; 06-15-2010 at 02:48 PM. Reason: added links
    Steve Martinsen

  4. #4
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    The free download of the book, from our host, is at

    http://www.woodenboat.com/wbstore/in...roducts_id=765

    You will need to register if you are not already, go through the checkout, and then download the PDF.


    Barry

  5. #5
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Lots of photos, to go with the measurements and notes.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ Manheimer View Post
    I'm planning to haul Sjogin for her Summer refit in early July. As you all know Paul Gartside and Francois Vivier are waiting for her measurements to start drawing the plans.

    Some of you nearby have expressed an interest in helping with the measurement process. I've talked with Tom Beaton and he's willing to put Sjogin in one of the shops for a weekend so we'll have a level floor upon which to set up a grid.

    I'm thinking of doing this the weekend of July 17th or 24th. If anyone's still interested please let me know your preference. I have a couple of beds/couches available at home or I may be able to arrange a berth or two at Beaton's.

    I expect the process (once I figure out how to do it) would take a day to record the offsets and a day to record the construction details; maybe less. I have a copy of Boats, a Manual for their Documentation as well as detailed instructions from Paul Gartside. Any advice from the collected wisdom of the Forum will be appreciated.

    Thanks again for your interest.

    Russ
    As someone who has taken the lines off of several boats of Sjogin's size up to 64foot, allow two days for lifting the lines, and another for the structure. Some of the measurements for the lines also detail the keel and stems as well. Have someone take lots of photo's, and make rough dimensioned sketches of EVERYTHING. Chalk on the hull to highlight details on the photos, and try to have the photos replicate the rough sketches. It is vital that you document everything, as someone else will be drawing from your data. It is easier if you are working from the data, 'cos you remember what you intended and drew, but they do not have your memories.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Russ, I don't have my July schedule yet, so the best I can commit to is that I might be able to make it down. Let us know what you need, as in how many bodies to get the job done.

    Even if you don't need me for measuring I still need to get the sharpie in salt water and see your Sjogin this summer sometime.
    Steve B
    TraditionalSmallCraftAssociation
    DowneastTSCA.org

    TraditionalSmallCraft.com
    RIVUS 16' Melonseed

    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

  8. #8
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    If possible, the photos should be taken with a light source off to one side, to give better shadows and depths. External flash, or a work light.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Thanks all. and rest assured there will be plenty of pics.

    Steve,

    Let me know your shcedule when you Can. She's usually out for at least four weeks so I'm flexible with regards to a Measurement weekend. I'll be at the WBS next week and see if I can press some volunteers.

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  10. #10
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    [QUOTE][Let me know your shcedule when you Can. She's usually out for at least four weeks so I'm flexible with regards to a Measurement weekend. I'll be at the WBS next week and see if I can press some volunteers./QUOTE]

    Russ, I have a few days off around the 25th. Let me know if and when you need me for measuring or if just for moral support. If for measuring I'll leave Vika at home, if not I'll bring her down for the day.
    I trust you enjoyed Mystic. We missed it this time, been hitting it every other year.
    Steve B
    TraditionalSmallCraftAssociation
    DowneastTSCA.org

    TraditionalSmallCraft.com
    RIVUS 16' Melonseed

    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

  11. #11
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    If there are plenty of photos and plans, I could then build a model of the boat this winter.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Hi All,

    It looks like the last week of July will work best. I'll have Sjogin in a shed starting on the 22nd or so. I'm still looking at the lines method described by Fuller and friends as well as the ones described by Messrs's Vivier and Gartside. I'll try to put a program and parts list together and offer here for advice. I also have MMDs earlier summary of what's involved. Gulp.

    Any thoughts as to the minimum number of stations, waterlines, buttocks ets? Sjogins frames are on 2 foot centers and I'd to set up a station for each

    Thanks,

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  13. #13
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Russ, I've been thinking about your idea of using the inside corners of the laps for reference points when plotting the stations. This will have the advantage of plotting the lining-off, as you say, and provides a set of points in the proper spatial relation to one another. However, doing it that way removes the possibility of using buttocks or diagonals. On a fairly small hull with heavy lap lines it would probably be impossible to get meaningful numbers for these planes anyway, and probably not necessary if the stations are accurately recorded.

    Two foot sounds reasonable.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Russ, I've been thinking about your idea of using the inside corners of the laps for reference points when plotting the stations. This will have the advantage of plotting the lining-off, as you say, and provides a set of points in the proper spatial relation to one another. However, doing it that way removes the possibility of using buttocks or diagonals. On a fairly small hull with heavy lap lines it would probably be impossible to get meaningful numbers for these planes anyway, and probably not necessary if the stations are accurately recorded.

    Two foot sounds reasonable.
    This is a good strategy. If you make one of these angle gauges (it uses a plumb bob):

    You can record the slope of the planks as well, giving even more data to guide the lofting.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Russ,

    I have one of the SmartTool angle gauges from MD Building products... and you are welcome to borrow it if you need it. You just calibrate it on a table or relatively horizontal and vertical surface... and its accurate to 1/10 of a degree. Its pretty cool if you just want to know accurate angles out in space... I bought it when I wanted to know angles on a boat I was taking measurements on. If you set Sjogin up level, it would be of value I would think.

    Let me know if you need it.



    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 07-01-2010 at 01:15 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    It turns out I have an App for that. Though PM's ancient device has it attractions. So the angle of each plank at each section will be recorded. Excel here I come.

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  17. #17
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Here's a pic of Clint and the Sjogin material at the WoodenBoat Show. I left some cards there as well.

    Hove to off Swan Point......

  18. #18
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Bump. Gartside news. Paul sent me a set of drawings to be used in picking up Sjogin's lines. If anyone's interested, send me an e-mail at russ at sjogin dot com.

    Here's one page of the instructions. Very simple, very elegant:



    Basically, the location of each lap for each section is recorded and then laid on the body plan. The points are faired and the heights and half breadths picked up and placed in the offset table.

    Russ
    Last edited by Russ Manheimer; 07-08-2010 at 07:33 PM.
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  19. #19
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Sjogin is being hauled today and getting set up for her Measurement and Summer refit. Pics later.

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  20. #20
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Out she comes:



    Mast pulled and ready to be put in the shed for the annual mop and glow. One of these years I'll wood it. Not this one though.




    Hopefully the new plans will not duplicate her out of kilter stem. Some of the difference is due to almost 50 years of sanding and scraping.




    Not too bad for 10 months in the water though most of the time it was pretty cold water.
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  21. #21
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Russ,

    Send me the hi res images of these... nice pics.

    Rodb

  22. #22
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Will do Rod. New post here.
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  23. #23
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    This is becoming dramatic now... I can hardly breath...
    Life is too long to live with an ugly boat...

  24. #24
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Me too!
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  25. #25
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Hey Russ,

    Whats the chance of you getting Sjogin set up outside for a few hours before going back in the water... so you could take a bunch of photos of her with good available light... for example... images of her profile from the side... and quartering from the front and back. . l plus lots of detail pics of her topside decks, cockpit, cabin etc... just wondered.

    I realize the marine lift costs money and they don't like to have to reset the straps to move her again. .. at least thats the way they are here at the marinas.

    RodB

  26. #26
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Rod,

    I'll take those pics when she's on her way back in and when she looks her best.

    Progress on following Paul Gartside's instructions. Here a few pis from the last couple of days.




    Getting ready to lift and level her.




    Measuring square and platform constructed. The platform will be placed under Sjogin and made level.




    After the lap positions are picked up, the square and fingers will be laid on the plywood, the positions marked, the section faired and the offsets recorded.

    More tomorrow.

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  27. #27
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Looks fricking great to me... forge ahead... wish I was there...

    This is so cool to see this entire project begin and move forward with a great bunch of teamwork.

    Thanks to all participants...

    RodB

  28. #28
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Sorry to disappoint you all but it's not going to work out for tomorrow to start taking off Sjogin's lines. I still need to get the grid set up and leveled and the tick strips milled.

    It's also going to be very hot and humid tomorrow with scant chance of a sea breeze. Not ideal conditions for detailed work.

    We'll see what next week brings.

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  29. #29
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Hey Russ, I completely understand... I've been working on various sailboats... repairs etc... here in Texas, with scattered thundershowers...and lots of humidity.... the heat will cook your brains....

    Keep us posted.

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 07-23-2010 at 03:56 PM.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Rod,

    Just sent you a bunch of pics. As I take more I'll forward them to you.

    Weather broke, about 72 now with low humidity. Looks like Wednesday will see the start of the measurement process.

    More later. New post here.

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  31. #31
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Progress....



    The measurement platform has been set up, the stations set up and we're ready to go.





    The "fingers" will be nailed to the square and transferred to the lay-down sheet.

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  32. #32
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Russ,

    I think you may find it easier to undo and remake each station by using hot glue to secure the sticks... I have used crown staples, small clamps, etc.. I think the hot glue was easiest to pull/twist apart and reuse the sticks over and over again... Just wondering...?

    Rod

  33. #33
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    More progress!



    Mid-ship section recorded. It went pretty quick after the initial setup. Steve Martinsen os driving up tomorrow to help. It'll go quicker with another set of hands.




    Transferring the lap points to the lay-down sheet.

    Moe tomorrow,

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

  34. #34
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Looks perfect Russ, I doubt it could be done with any more accuracy... thanks for the efforts. Anxiously awaiting the results.


    RodB

  35. #35
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    Default Re: The Measurement of Sjogin

    Russ,
    Are you going to whiten and draw baseline, buttocks and waterlines on the scrieve board? When you do can I recommend that you lay them out with big compasses or trammels.
    Here is one way http://www.mathopenref.com/constbisectline.html
    or this http://www.winpossible.com/lessons/G...lar_Lines.html
    Use as large a radius on the compass as you can get on the scrieve board for accuracy. This is the only proper way that a loftsman would use to construct his grid, as you cannot guarantee the straightness of the edge of the scrieve board, nor can you guarantee that two edges are at 90 degrees. When you are happy with the grid, ink it in, so that if you erase a station curve you do not erase the grid as well.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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