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Thread: panga?

  1. #1
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    Default panga?

    has anyone built one of the pangas from beateau.com? my brother is interested. they look like they have an awful forefoot: tortured ply deadrise hull, by the website.

    i am recommending the kingfisher dory or the hill long point. it is his first build, and those flat bottom hulls will be easier. i plan on flying out to denver to help him plank.

    he wants to trailer the boat down to the baja and go out on the cortez side. he is very experienced with the sea, though maybe not that much at power boating.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: panga?

    Can't help with the Panga - but if your brother is in Denver, he should come to the Colorado boat builder's get together we are having next weekend!

    June 19, 10:00 am at Boyd Lake State Park, in Loveland

    Have him email me for more details - no boat necessary, just interest!

    Dave Gentry Traveller1719@yahoo.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: panga?

    Having driven Baja's Highway 1 countless times. I'd say your choice of the more slender Tom Hill Long Point is a very good one.
    The road is NARROW with no shoulders and many poor drivers. A wide boat on a trailer is a recipe for disaster.
    IMO A flat bottom skiff is also the better choice for fishing and exploring the SOC.
    Launch ramps are few and far between.
    One of several reasons I would not choose the Kingfisher. I imagine those twin bilge keels would make beach launches a trial.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: panga?

    Didn't Welsford do a panga-type design? I'd trust his work before Batteau's, that's for sure!

    Here it is -


    http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/trover/index.htm
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: panga?

    thank you thorne. i will look at that. hal, the designer on the kingfisher mentions the flat bottom as being a positive for beaching, but does not seem to talk much about those keels.

    since this is my brother's choice and not mine, i will ultimately defer to his judgement in the end. hopefully someone can enlighten us on that panga forefoot.

    for further detail, the intended use will be four adults and some dive or fishing gear, with maybe a 25 to a 50 horse motor. the long point might be a bit small for him, although again that would be my first choice. he reckons an 18-22 ft hull would be ideal, with concurrent suitable beam. mcmullen, any comments? you must see many rough water dories up your way...he has recently come from the dark side to the light, so his esthetic sensibility will be more of the carolina skiff type than say, a faering.

    he rejected a diablo grande and a bolger sharpshooter. i don't like the looks of the larger diablo, but really it is the perfect hull for what he wants.

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    Default Re: panga?

    Over on Boatdesign, there are people who will savage you unmercifully for even considering a panga. Apparently they don't actually, really, truly 'plane' and that flat bottom will pound you stupid in a chop.

    On the other hand, there are lots of these boats doing yeoman service day after day after day in Oceana. Too bad their owners don't know they're doin' it wrong.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: panga?

    IMO The Long Point is too small for that crew with gear and Mr. Hill says 15HP is plenty.
    I can see the Kingfisher's bilge keels working fine to hold a boat upright but dragging across a sandy beach they'd have to be pretty large to keep 'em from digging in.
    There is a couple more Bolger Boats you might look at.
    http://www.instantboats.com/downeastdories/dories.php
    Glen L and Jeff Spira both have a couple nice flat bottom skiff designs.
    Panga style boats are probably one of the most widespread designs on the planet.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: panga?

    Jacques Mertens' Panga 20 is a vee-hull while Welsford's Trover is dory-style. Somebody has missed the boat.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: panga?

    chuck, i think the trover hull is similar to the diablo, and yes, flat bottomed. the point is that this is a first build for my brother. the flat bottom should be lots easier, but that doesn't seem to be what he wants. he wants to build the bateau panga. so my original question was, what does anyone know about that tortured ply forefoot on the bateau panga? and yes, i am asking for any alternate suggestions, as thorne provided. captain blight, some of the pangas are V hulls. of course we recognize that panga has become something of a generic name, like skiff, down south, right?

    the suggested page contained two good hulls, the surfmaster and the 23 ft dory. i couldn't tell if the atkins 23 footer was for sheet ply. slight V bottom looks very good.

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    Default Re: panga?

    There's a good sequence of photos of a complete panga build showing the ply bending starting here http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayim...um=1080&pos=14

    Looks like it was ratchet-strapped down before stitching... it doesn't look like that rough a job though... there are some kayaks that will have you snapping panels like twigs for a while till you find one that takes the bend. Don't ask me how I know that.
    Last edited by cprinos; 06-14-2010 at 02:52 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: panga?

    If you have any questions about any Bateau design you can ask your question on the Bateau Forum. If it is a very technical question you should get an answer from Jacques Mertens, himself.
    http://forums.bateau2.com/index.php
    Mertens is fairly familiar with Carribean craft like the Panga because he ran a business down there for a considerable time
    I haven't seen the plans for a Panga but I suspect it's in line with his other powerboats. Vee hulls are usually ¼" ply which is overlaid inside and out with about 13 oz. biax glass and epoxy. So all you are bending is ¼" ply. If there is anything extra required like kerf bending he will tell you.

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    Default Re: panga?

    Along these lines be sure to check out Mark Bowdidge's First Mate - 7' beam, 23' overall, 10-40 or 50 hp, v hull (but not too much in the stern), very nice looking and appears to be a relatively simple ply build.

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    Default Re: panga?


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    Default Re: panga?

    Flat bottom might be nice to sit on the beach but nobody sits in their boats on the beach so it doesn't matter if it sits flat. What I am getting at, beach your flat bottom and have the water give way to low tide and it is a back and forth torture to get it back into the water and the boat might as well be built of lead. I had flat bottom net skiffs at the bay where I grew up and it would take me a half hour or more to move it 6 ft and the wetter the sand at the shore break, the worst it got. Let off the struggle to catch your breath and the suction takes over once again. I'll never have a flat bottom beachable boat again.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: panga?

    In the Houston Boat Show a couple of years ago... I saw this production Panga 18 footer... that has a flat stern bottom and can handle plenty of chop due to the front V....

    This boat is supposedly used in the bahamas and the Carribbean in and out of open water between the isles... This company has built several sizes based on this hull....

    http://www.pangamarine.com/skiff_specs.html











    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 06-14-2010 at 10:40 PM.

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    Default Re: panga?

    Look at Jeff Spira's web site. The Pacific Power dories are ment for beaching and launching thru surf. They were designed for rough water and the're flat bottomed.

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    Default Re: panga?

    RodB,

    Those are the best of the pangas. I have been on that type and they are pretty incredible boats. Shallow draft that will still handle the rough stuff. I was looking for a pic of that delta pad keel. The boats are very nimble performers. I build things for those occasionally.

    The people that own them, love them. People with more conventional vee hulls are critical of them saying they are too tender, etc but it's just not true. They also make efficient use of HP.I always thought if I was to build another power boat, that is what it would be.
    Last edited by pipefitter; 06-15-2010 at 10:07 AM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: panga?

    That style Panga is the most common boat there is in Baja on both sides of the peninsula.
    You could buy a new panga with motor in Baja for a lot less then you could make one and outfit it with a Baja proof trailer and Mexican insurance.
    Haulin' a panga to Baja is like takin' coal to Newcastle.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: panga?

    Probably true, Hal. But then again, we could afford a jon boat to catch fish all day long here and yet something compels us to suffer through the build, along with the money we throw at it above the budget when it comes down to the wire.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: panga?

    That's why we're here.

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    Default Re: panga?

    Those pangas share a similar sheer profile as the Lafitte skiffs.

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    Default Re: panga?

    It's worth a trip just to study the boats and see how the locals use them prior to forming too many conclusions as to which hull form might be better. Here's a simple and cheap form. I know, it's plastic, but it's damn good for what it does.

    Sometimes walking the beach you can "smell polyester resin in the morning." The locals do cheap, fast repairs on the beach.





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    Default Re: panga?

    i am trying to convince him to build a wooden boat INSTEAD OF of buying one those glass pangas, and begrudgingly i admit they are a good performance hull for the area conditions. he could buy a boat down there (maybe take the bare trailer) but then i'll have to go fishing in a god awful floating toilet seat for the next ten years ( how does this affect me...). it looks like a boston whaler with a lowered sheer, which is to say, camel a*# ugly. i am surprised the salesman doesn't have a 300 lb model in a fullpiece budweiser swimsuit sitting on the deck. remember in the 70s when people used to show up at allman brothers concerts in hats that were woven yarn and cut out beer can panels? i'd have to find one of those and wear it if he bought that thing. i mention flat bottom above less for getting in and off a beach, and more because the diablo/trover style hull is an easy build for a first timer. i think the bowdidge hull recommended above is an elegant, very good looking boat, for what it is. appears the shallow V is less tough than some of the deep Vs, but i say that from looking at the design. i haven't read up on it yet. i like that one an awful lot. i personaly think he should build a diablo grande or the long point. he is stuck on the traditional glass pangas.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: panga?

    Old School Panga



    The only place you can still find many old school pangas.



    Modern Rancho Leonero "Super Panga"


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    Default Re: panga?

    I would have like to have heard the discussion when the mold was built for this hull variation. The designer may have been overly concerned with moving the boat on the beach. I didn't see others like it and I preferred the simpler flat bottom.






  26. #26
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    Default Re: panga?

    dave wright, you posted while i was writing my diatribe above. my brother is going to cancun this morning to dive. he says he is giong to photograph some boats and "check out the local craft". i think it will be easier for him to buy one of those glass boats. but let's all keep our collective fingers crossed that he will stay on the light side, and won't slip back into the dark.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: panga?

    Quote Originally Posted by davebrown View Post
    i am trying to convince him to build a wooden boat INSTEAD OF of buying one those glass pangas, and begrudgingly i admit they are a good performance hull for the area conditions. he could buy a boat down there (maybe take the bare trailer) but then i'll have to go fishing in a god awful floating toilet seat for the next ten years ....
    Well, you might feel that it's a toilet seat, but I'll tell you, it's a very simple toilet seat in a very simple paradise


  28. #28
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    Default Re: panga?

    i look at these and think, wow, ain't plastic boats great? and i truly appreciate the contributions. don't misunderstand me. i am grateful for the input. but i am going to use these photos to point out why he shouldn't buy one.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: panga?

    I understand completely! I keep my very nice home made ply skiff in the garage between jaunts. It's lighter and has features unavailable from the "mold," plus I enjoyed building it.

    But.........life is short and the modern world and mass production intrudes everywhere and is hard to resist for all sorts of reasons. I don't know how long my skiff could live on a tropical beach without very special care and attention.

    Anyway, best wishes to you and your brother; build quick and dirty, and go boating!

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    Default Re: panga?

    The northern equivalent to the panga is the freighter canoe, and the ones I built weight in at (23ft long and 230- 270lbs) considerably less weight than the glass boats. They also mean beach launching short-handed is feasible. When I went down the Baja I had mine on the roof of the suburban, no trailer necessary. Interestingly I did see some really old wooden hulls (in peoples back yards) in a few villages that were dead ringers for my boats.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: panga?

    Regarding the discussion mentioned in post #25, I think it went like this:

    Fisherman 1: "Say, those Pangas are ugly as a camel's a#$, don't you think?

    Fisherman 2: "They sure are! Remember when boats were made of wood?"

    F1: "Yes, but the boats were too good looking. Our lives were too desirable. North Americans kept trying to move here. "

    F2: "How can we make the pangas even uglier?"

    F1: "We can put a flat bottom on one. That might make them even uglier than a camel's a%$."

    F2: "Uglier than a camel's a%$. Wow. Let's try it!".

    F1: "Have you ever seen a camel's a%$?"

    F2: "No, but I have seen Dave Brown's second mother-in-law."

    F1: "From now on, let us no longer call them "Pangas". Let us call them "Culo de Camellas".

    And that is why, all over northern Mexico and the Baja, nowadays, if you refer to boats as "pangas", the fishermen will all give you a funny look, and scurry inside their sheds and garages, where they keep their hand polished, immaculately maintained wooden boats, which they never, ever allow Norte Americanos to see.

    etc.
    Last edited by davebrown; 06-15-2010 at 11:24 PM.

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    Default Re: panga?

    The freighter canoe is a great idea! Do you have pictures or a plans source?

    The Surfmaster mentioned in earlier posts isn't too much beamier than a freighter canoe. If I didn't have my current skiff and an unfinished kayak hanging from the ceiling I'd be tempted to slap out a Surfmaster at lowest possible cost and time just for the heck of it:


  33. #33
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    Default Re: panga?

    can you tell i had a trial cancel today, and now i will do anythign to avoid my staff and the mountains of paperwork following me around like so many fiberglass culo de camellas? i also liked that surfmaster. it is the same type of flat bottom, two plank design that bolger uses on so many hulls.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: panga?

    Quote Originally Posted by davebrown View Post
    .....And that is why, all over northern Mexico and the Baja, nowadays, if you refer to boats as "pangas", the fishermen will all give you a funny look, and scurry inside their sheds and garages, where they keep their hand polished, immaculately maintained wooden boats, which they never, ever allow Norte Americanos to see.

    etc.
    I don't think you'll find those boats. It may be that poor folks embrace our technology every bit as much as we do, if not more, and then recycle it in ways we've never considered:


  35. #35
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    Default Re: panga?

    dave, see my edit on the conversation betwen the fishermen.

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    Default Re: panga?

    We watched panga fishermen launch and retrieve through surf, on the west coast just south of Todos Santos, BC. The pangas were mostly over 20 ft., heavily built, and mostly beat-up, with big motors.

    There are no harbors or inlets. Coming in, they'd power up and surf a wave, slamming up onto the beach. There were pickups with weight in the bed or other utes dead-manned, with electric winches and long cables. When a boat hit the beach, the young crazy guys would dash out with a cable and try to hook onto the bow eye, as the guy in the truck was taking in slack, so the boat wouldn't get sucked back out and hit the end of the cable with a bang that would rip out the fitting.

    It's full-contact boating, exciting, lots of ways to lose fingers or limbs. No gringos (besides me) in sight, despite a major presence in the town. That is, it's not really a sport fishery.

    Eating fish in the cafés, I really appreciated the hard work that went into catching and beaching it.

    When I went to Sitka, Alaska, the whale biologist who took me out on humpback surveys had a 23-ft. Mexican panga.

  37. #37
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    Default Re: panga?

    Chip,
    FYI
    There are pangeros beach launching and fishing with gringos all over Baja.
    Some guys that's all they do and others do it as a sideline..
    http://www.vonnysfleet.com/ has been in business for years.
    I've done it at Santo Tomas, San Quintin, Asuncion, several spots on the East Cape, Loreto and Bahia de Los Angeles.
    Sometimes it's easy and sometimes you wonder if you'll live through it.
    Some of my favorite people are Mexican pangeros.
    This is my buddy Juan Arce Marron holding a fat yellowtail he'd gaffed for me after putting me on one of the best days of fishing of my life.
    He's an abalone and caracol diver and his family have been either fisherman or with the very effective local fisherman's vigilancia force for 4 generations.
    He lives in the last house on the point at Bahia Asuncion and actually lived on tiny Isla San Roque when he was a kid.



    SWIMPAL with Filomeno and a decent Huachinango just off La Ribera. He also fishes for some restaurants in Cabo.


    Sorry about the thread drift.
    Like I said, some of my best pals are pangeros.

    Hector Murillo, Juan Arce's partner, and mi amigo por vida, and I, well into our cups after a successful day fishing.


    Back to the Panga discussion..........

  38. #38
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    Default Re: panga?

    I can send on a pdf file of an article about beach cruising using freighter canoes, I did for 'messing about in boats' a few years ago; if you send your e-mail address on in a personal message. If you could post it, it would be ok too.
    Last edited by peter osberg; 06-15-2010 at 10:39 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: panga?

    peter, i will send you a pm and thank you for the interesting offer.
    it seems like looking at these culo de camellas is kind of fun for people so i will post when i get some more info from my brother who, allegedly, is down in cancun right now "checking out the local craft".

    the rest of you, i see, are still referring to these boats by their gringo name, panga. remember, the locals now call them culo de camellas. and they get very offended if you forget that (also, if you feed hot peanuts to a burro that is painted like a zebra). if you have any other suitable hull designs that do not look like big plastic toilet seats i would like to hear of them.
    Last edited by davebrown; 06-16-2010 at 12:02 AM.

  40. #40
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    Default Re: panga?

    Quote Originally Posted by peter osberg View Post
    I can send on a pdf file of an article about beach cruising using freighter canoes, I did for 'messing about in boats' a few years ago; if you send your e-mail address on in a personal message. If you could post it, it would be ok too.

    So you're the guy! I enjoyed your article in MAIB; I'll have to dig it up for a re-read. Thanks for sharing.

  41. #41
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    Default Re: panga?



  42. #42
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    Default Re: panga?

    davebrown,
    We get that you don't like the look or construction of Pangas.
    Seeing as how they are the most widely used power boat hull type on the planet it doesn't really matter.
    But I'll suggest you don't go tellin' any pangeros their boats look like a "camel's ass".

    These plans are free
    http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5649e/y5649e00.htm

    They make this boat


    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=80503

    And again, Jeff Spira has several plans for boats of this type.
    http://www.spirainternational.com/index.html


  43. #43
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    Default Re: panga?

    Too bad panganeros don't spend any time on the internet, we could ask them why they switched to their current boats.

    That Icelandic built FAO boat turned out nicely. I wonder if her builder fabricated the trailer too. Looks lighter than what we usually have here in the states.

  44. #44
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    Default Re: panga?

    Shoestring Shipyard's Humble Peasant 22 is similar to, but larger then the Long Point. More in line with the stated requirements.
    Length: 22' Beam: 8'6" Maximum hp: 40hp
    http://www.shoestringshipyard.com/humble-peasant-2/





    At that beam, I wouldn't want to tow it down into Baja more then once.

    They also have the 16' Pilgrim's Pride.
    Last edited by Hal Forsen; 06-16-2010 at 03:55 PM.

  45. #45
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    Default Re: panga?

    Chicagoross....

    I really like the 3D drawing you posted... the bow doesn't sweep up as much as others... so it would be more practical for shallow water fishing and poling.

    Cool

    RodB

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    Default Re: panga?

    i think we have three absolute winners here. the bosun's mate and the spiro hull are great, and of a certain type. of the two, i am more inclined towards the spiro, yet i like the looks of the bosun's mate better. the humble peasant 22, since it is flat bottomed, is easier to build and capacious enough for his stated purpose. if i were building this here boat , i would probably build the humble peasant and give it three strakes, either whisp style or tom hill's warthog. it ouwl dbe easy to line off and attractive with a little break to the sheet plywood. but the V bottom salesmen have got to him, and so he wants to build a boat that is at its best at 40 knots in a storm, and i think he believes that a flat bottom boat is seaworthy only for say, a bass pond in georgia. which is a misapprehension, because with experience and caution, you can do a lot with a good skiff. regardless, we have three boats that look great and within their parameters, will perform very well.

    hal, thank you for your contributions. your photos remind me of many enjoyable trips that i have taken both in the baja and the mainland. but remember, La culo de camella con cualquier otro nombre sigue siendo la culo de camella, as the great south american author guillermo carlos santana shakespearo de la playa said.

    please post more if you have anything.
    Last edited by davebrown; 06-25-2010 at 01:05 PM.

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    Default Re: panga?

    dave wright, i was thinking about post #43. i would speculate the change has occured for three main reasons: 1. the panganeros are operating small commercial operations, even if sometimes they are only one or two men. frp boats are probably less maintenance in terms of keeping them on the water. we all know the differential is not as great as the glass salesmen ( and my cousins in sebastian inlet florida) would have you believe, but there is some truth to that. 2. ease of construction: a flatbottomed hull out of sheet ply is not going to be ideal in the rough conditions of the pacific. conversely, construction of the V hulls is going to be complex, and take some skills and or special material--say 1/4 inch high quality marine ply with 10 oz. fabric and plenty of pox, or forefeet chopped out of chunks in traditional. OTH, blown resin over chopped strand or mat couldn't be easier in a mold, and the complex shapes (albeit horrible eyesores) are easily attainable in this fashion. 3. cheap, heavy builds: blown mat and resin is going to be cheaper, i think than building a more sophisticated boat.

    the above is pure speculation. most of the pangas i have gone out in fit the above descriptions, and they looked awful and performed well in the hands of capable operators. i saw, equally, lots of older pangas with badly done repairs and conditions like the stern broken out where, ostensibly, a motor had gone to investigate how, at four fathoms five, our fathers lie, or the stems knocked out of the forefoot. hard use, a hard life, and boats to match. i hope they all go back to wood someday. in the meantime my brother could spark some interest with something he drags down there behind his f250.

  48. #48
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    San Clemente CA
    Posts
    1,871

    Default Re: panga?


  49. #49
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Spokane, Wa
    Posts
    1,331

    Default Re: panga?

    Well I've been too busy lately to come to the forum, but it looks like I can at least get a word in towards the middle of a discussion.

    It was initially asked if it is a hard boat to plank, and whether something of a dory would do better. I'm gonna start there.

    Would a dory do okay? Yup, just fine. Do you see millions of dories all around Mexico? Nope, even though they are the cheaper boat to buy, build, maintain, and power. Why do ya think that is?

    I built the first LB22 Nina, which has every ounce as much warp (in fact, more) from the flat transom to the deep forefoot. I had nary a problem with creating the shape, and I didn't even use wire. Only plastic wire ties were needed, and I was actually using quite small 4" models.



    I used okoume plywood, and it bent flawlessly with very little effort.



    She's as fine as they come at the bow, and man does she ride smooth.



    Smooth you say? Yeah, that's why they use pangas down in Mexico. They have that afternoon breeze that snots up the water like the east coast guys get every day, and running head long into a 4' wind chop, I think I'll take a semi-planer with a deep forefoot to split the waves over a dory. Not to mention going up to 20+ feet in length allows you to bridge the waves a bit instead of bashing into them and slowing the boat down tossing all the spray everywhere.

    I've been very happy with the boat, which is a close cousin to a panga, and would recommend not only the design, but also the support offered by the designer, not something you get with most designers nowadays.

    E

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Fiddletown, on Vineyard Lane
    Posts
    2,675

    Default Re: panga?

    spokaloo: great looking hull. but the lb22 nina--who did the plans?i googled this and it looks like we are back to bataeu.com. is that right? their cad drawing shows this hull with a bit of a windshield/cuddy... this ply hull is similar to the strip planked ocean pointer, V forefoot with flat run aft. should be economical with low horsepower. what thickness planking on the floor and how much glass? also, i am not sure why the rhetorical questions on seeing dories down in mexico. you don't see many dories here in the sf bay either. you don't see very many of ANY wooden power boats in mexico, but you do see lots of glass pangas. apples and oranges. and they use them because they are simple, effective and cheap for what they are. if you read my first two posts, the point of a dory is they are seaworthy and a relatively easy first build. probably a generalization to say that dories can be as easy as a skiff, but more seaworthy. definitely not the same as a V hull. but i don't want to get sidetracked on that. your boat is an A+. so tell us more. how long did this build take, if you know? by that i mean, it is easy to spend 6 months on a build that takes 90 hours...if you are working fulltime and doing other things on the weekends from time to time...what horsepwoer are you running with that?

    i definitely like the flat run from mid section aft with the V forefoot.
    Last edited by davebrown; 06-17-2010 at 01:25 AM.

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