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Thread: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

  1. #246
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Originally Posted by Boatsbgood
    At the risk of answering when I wasnt asked...
    I think Wiz's aversion to white oak is around its propensity to rot.




    Denise's reply:
    .... huh?

    https://www.wood-database.com/white-oak/


    Hi Denise and all. I know what the books and tables and many folks say, but...(absent Bruce's input here) I recall something Bruce wrote that resonated with my experience. Bruce avoided using oak, and has cited his experience that its rot prone compared to other woods. To be clear, I've lived all my boat years in the Pacific tropics (and Bruce/Wiz spends a lot of time in the Atlantic tropics) and its all too common to find the following: Boat not new but not ancient, pretty good-to-fine cedar planks, rotten white oak everything. I cant recall the thread/threads where this has come up, but I noticed it because it's what I've seen. For context, I've been a captain/master/manager of active boats since the late 70's, not a builder but a rebuilder/operator/maintainer, whilst being responsible for the humans (and dogs etc) in my charge. The tropical environment is not kind to carvel vessels, and is only slightly less unkind to other wood based construction.
    If one's experience and mindset trends toward more recent construction methods, the combination of WO's epoxy bonding difficulties and tendency to rot makes it less desirable than other timbers.
    So there's that. My take is that where it gets cold enough, enough of the time, outcomes are different.

  2. #247
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    What he said^.
    I’m a bit zinged at being bent over by Flickr , seeing how many photos are gone from this thread.
    Whats the effin use.

  3. #248
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    What he said^.
    I’m a bit zinged at being bent over by Flickr , seeing how many photos are gone from this thread.
    Whats the effin use.
    It makes sense that you're 'zinged' Bruce, but do persist with your efforts. At least a squillion or more people have been revved up and inspired by everything you've shared in this thread, and all those enthused people mean you've managed to make the world a better place. Don't let Flickr get in the way of all that good.

  4. #249
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    It makes sense that you're 'zinged' Bruce, but do persist with your efforts. At least a squillion or more people have been revved up and inspired by everything you've shared in this thread, and all those enthused people mean you've managed to make the world a better place. Don't let Flickr get in the way of all that good.

    Bruce-
    Your thread and your posts have absolutly helped inspire and educate me! Blows my friggen mind you got her built so fast! So please keep posting! Very much looking forward to crossing wakes with you one day!

    I really hope that the forum eventually hosts pictures so the threads and their info can be immortalized. The forum is an amazing resource and it's a great loss for everyone when the pictures disappear! It's a relatively easy fix, many other and smaller forums have image hosting setup.
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  5. #250
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Use of the word Zinged shows considerable self restraint.

    I have read all of your Whizzers Bruce, and am another fan of your approach to building, maintenance and, most of all, using boats. You've certainly pricked a few bubbles in your time. The loss of photos seems to be a regular problem, a result I suppose of the rapid growth of some, and decline of other facilities. Keep doing what you do, Steve

  6. #251
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Hey Bruce,

    i wanted to ask you about how exactly you went about doing your cement keel with the wheel weights. How did you build the form? How did you handle the rebar? This is my biggest question: Did you take any special measures to prevent the wheel weights from sinking all the way to the bottom of the wet concrete, or is that not really a concern? Does the Venus designer (John, right?) spec cement for the ballast keel, or was that all you?

  7. #252
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Andrew TNOFLAHC , the chap who is looking at Beuhler boats , just asked me to go into a bit of detail on my ballast keel, in particular, the wheel weights and mold .
    There are a few pics of the mold in the beginning of this yhtead...wood planks with a buncha re enforcing, stakes banged into the ground, a bit of grease painted on the inside of the planking, planking attached to female molds from the lofying floor, all pretty straight forward...but I did deviate from the plan with the wheel weights.
    The edge of the mold has rebar running fore n aft, wired together with bailing wire. It is mostly an inch in from the edge.We do not want it to touch seawater or go in too deep either. The strength of the ballast depends on the rebar being near the skin...basic engineering.
    So...what we did was to whip up a batch of "mortar" , a dryish batch of concrete with just cement and sand, no rocks. We "puttied" it up the sides by hane , slowly, a few inches at a time, making sure we worked the mortar into and around the rebar and patted it against the side of the mold.

  8. #253
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Then, after going up a little ways, we then mixed a more wet, soupy mix of 1,2,3. regular concrete. one part cement, 2 parts sand, then three parts wheel weights, and put the wet stuff in. Then,, back to the mortar, repeat . I had one old , borrowed mixer and 3 good friends that day in 1983. We had no vibrator thingy, just kept moving sticks up n down in the goo.

  9. #254
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    The designer is Paul Johnson. Yes, he specifys a concrete keel , but in the plans he says "boiler punchings"
    For the boat I helped him build, (Pluto), we used chunks of solid lead.
    The wheel weights had the potential of rusting up, as they each have a tab of steel. But then so does the rebar. Its been 35 years and 3 months she has been launched. No sign of rust , or cracks in the concrete.
    The gasket of irish felt and black roofing goo DID stop leaking out after 30 years when hauled out. About 3 years ago, she developed a very slow keelbolt leak, under the mast step. That leak stops after about 5 gallons over 2 months. I suspect if I choose to get a wrench on the bolt, it might stop, but its a real PITA to reach.

  10. #255
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Now, in 2020, wheel weights are becoming either obsolete or environmentally prohibito, or so Im told. I dunno fer sher.
    I coatyed the concrete with epoxy to fair it and protect it it, so over time there is lots of epoxy on it. It does not look like a funky homemade thing. Other than some blistering that happens at the joint between the concrete and the wood. For them , I chop em out each year with a hatchet and re fill them with WEST and 403 and 407. Chopping is sometimes better than grinding as there is no heat. Grinding will gum up a 16 grit disc with the asphaly goo quickly, which causes the disc to get hot, hot epoxy comes loose from the bond....bad cycle of things.
    so there , anything else?
    How are your boat building plans doin?

  11. #256
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    It's Carnival time where I am in Carriacou. very loud ashore for awhile longer. Happy to talk about stuff till the music stops at 3 am local. But ...tomorrow is Jouvee. it will go on till dawn.
    Hey at least my bilge is dry...no complaint.

  12. #257
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Thanks, Bruce! I’m mostly comfortable with the rest of the process—I just couldn’t wrap my head around how to handle the wheel weights. So, if I understand correctly, the weights were mixed in with the concrete before being poured?

    I’ve actually changed my mind on design and am 99% sure I’m going with an Atkin Clione. Waiting on my tax return to hit so I can buy the plans from Pat and get started. I’ve already spent the last month studying the free version on Google Books’ scan of the April, 1939 edition of MotorBoating. She’s designed with a cast iron keel, but I figured out that I can do cement and lead and get the exact same weight specified. I have a local source of wheel weights—probably about $3,000 under the table. I’m not sure if I’ll be buying them down here or wait until I’m up in Michigan and am ready to pour the ballast.

  13. #258
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Yes, the weights were shoveled right into the mixer.
    I vaguely recall that the keel came out very close to the density of iron.
    These old cruising designs usually have 20 percent internal ballast anyway.
    My boat has been 8 inches up or down on the dwl depending on the cruise brief.
    like Honey Badger...she don;t care.

  14. #259
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    New wheel weights are either zinc or iron in most states. Don't know about overseas.

  15. #260
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Bruce, I always enjoy reading of your methods. Back in the day, I worked with a bunch and we called ourselves, Back to Earth Engineers. It was all in fun helping each other with various construction projects using unconventional approaches. Nothing ever fell down, mostly because... well, we are engineers! Anyway, you woulda been a god.

    Also, I wonder what Professor Narany would have thought of using wheel weights as a concrete component had I mentioned it in the class on Concrete Mix Design back in college?

    Jeff

  16. #261
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    New wheel weights are either zinc or iron in most states. Don't know about overseas.
    You've got that backwards. Most states allow lead wheel weights. Only about 8 or ten have outlawed them.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  17. #262
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post


    You've got that backwards. Most states allow lead wheel weights. Only about 8 or ten have outlawed them.

    Kevin
    That would be news to the many members of the castboolits forum. Many from across the country have been complaining about the scarcity of lead wheel weights. Many have reported that zinc and iron now make up 70-85 percent of what they are able to find. Most(if not all) new vehicles come with non-lead wheel weights since so many states prohibit them. That way they can ship the cars to any state without having to change out the wheel weights.

  18. #263
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    They will build to the highest common denominator. ie, 50 state legal. So if they are banned in a few states, may as well not use it anywhere. One less complication.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  19. #264
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Whizzbang, I have your whole thread saved from the very first post so if you like I can send it to you . It would take me ages to down load bit by bit (Ithink) and the other thread on the little cutter too.

  20. #265
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    That would be news to the many members of the castboolits forum. Many from across the country have been complaining about the scarcity of lead wheel weights. Many have reported that zinc and iron now make up 70-85 percent of what they are able to find. Most(if not all) new vehicles come with non-lead wheel weights since so many states prohibit them. That way they can ship the cars to any state without having to change out the wheel weights.


    Availability and legality are two different things. Your post spoke of legality: i.e, you stated that lead wheel weights were, " illegal in most states."

    In fact, only eight states have outlawed lead wheel weights. https://www.moderntiredealer.com/art...in-most-states

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  21. #266
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Availability and legality are two different things. Your post spoke of legality: i.e, you stated that lead wheel weights were, " illegal in most states."

    In fact, only eight states have outlawed lead wheel weights. https://www.moderntiredealer.com/art...in-most-states

    Kevin
    Apparently you are correct about legality, but it has had a tremendous affect on supply. So, anyone gathering up wheelweights can't count on getting a particular percentage of lead bersus zinc or iron. Enough OT/thread drift so no more posting from me on this subject.

  22. #267
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Hi Bruce! Love this thread!
    Do you think that this boat building technique used in your boat can be used in other boats that are meant to be build with traditional technique. I was thinking here about Atkin's Fore n' Aft or the Lylle Hess Cutters.
    Cheers!

  23. #268
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Well, I think that most any boat can be strip planked.
    It's very well suited to a heavy mono hull especially.
    Epoxy makes a lot of things possible.
    I can't really speak to the design part, the CL. CLR,CE, ballast ratios, tippy over bits....
    But in terms of skinning a boat...no problemo I think.

  24. #269
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    FOURTY YEARS ago today, the timber of my boat was blasted from its roots by a VOLCANO !

  25. #270
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Did you mill it yourself?

  26. #271
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    My car was covered in volcanic ash while driving across Saskatchewan.

  27. #272
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    We felt it in the rock I was putting a foundation to on Quadra Island. Boatbuilding as my day job, moonlighting weekends as a carpenter, first child on the way. Memorable times. / Jim

  28. #273
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Hey Bruce,

    do you think it would be possible to swap the Venus concrete keel with a steel box keel filled mostly with scrap steel/iron? The reason being that the price of led (here in Brazil) seems to be very high (I found it quoted at more than US$ 4k the metric ton). Replacing led by steel in concrete wouldn't be dense enough, thus, I'm wondering if a mostly scrap iron/steel box keel would do the trick with a more reasonable price.

  29. #274
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Well, 2 bux a pound is a bit much, yachts are expensive.
    I would not replace the concrete keel with an steel box.
    First, the concrete keel is a nice shape, it has molds from the lofting floor,it is not a square nog.
    Also, what kind of maintainance nightmare would I have after 35 years of a steel welded box ballast keel ?The concrete is unchanged.

  30. #275
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    Default Re: Build of my 34' Venus Ketch

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Did you mill it yourself?
    No, The planking was milled into twobyfours ,at the local hardware/lumber place,intended for top plates. Long gone, only Home Depot now.
    To become planking, I ran the 18'-22' 2bys through the tablesaw, then straight to the scarphing table then the boat. no planing or sanding.

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