favorite 6oz fiberglass cloth?

[BerniniCaCO3]

Building a 20' "white guide" canoe.
Fiberglass cloth is ubiquitous; but figured I'd ask here if it turns out there's an open secret about one company with the best price, or the best cloth :-)

I've ordered fiberglass chop mat from jamestowndistributors in the past, might just go with them as a default otherwise.

Standard weave for a canoe, right? Nothing special?

[BerniniCaCO3]

oh, and where do people stand on "e-glass" versus "s-glass"?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Hand laid or vac-bagged?

All fibreglass or glass sheathed timber?

Just for abrasion or as a major structural component?

Which resin chemistry - epoxy, polyester or vinylester?

What finish are you planning?

[BerniniCaCO3]

Hand-laid.

Glass sheathed timber (1/4" cedar strips).

Major structural component.

Epoxy.

Unsure... I like gloss, but, this isn't grandma's mahogany end table or a prized guitar! If it's going to get scratched up using it outdoors, maybe satin will look and wear better? I'll take your advice on that one. I'm a woodworker who has decided to build a canoe for fun, and of course take it out a few times; I don't know what a canoe ends up looking like after 5 years, 10 years, 20 years.

[cookie]

Oh, ehrr, what weave type?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Twill weave for the easier drape - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twill

Wouldn't bother with the more exotic fibres as you only really realise the strength benefits once you have top class lamination and minimum resin....

What is the chopped strand mat for?

[cookie]

As for e or s type... I was told the most important thing was the glass-epoxy binding resin.
If you can get some proper manufacturing data, you can compare tensile strength, modulus of elasticity, etcetera and then compare it to the best price one. My guess.... The cheapest is good enough as glass is VERY strong.

[Brian Palmer]

I just got some 6 oz glass from Jamestown for a small project and it was fine.

Brian

[the_gr8t_waldo]

you might peruse this site http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/fiberglass.html - what does the plans suggest to use for this project? i might add that hand layup,espically for the begginer, is heavy! a heavy cannoe won't see much use

[Todd Bradshaw]

Standard 6. oz. E-glass will be fine. S-glass and twill weaves (as well as most exotic fabrics) do not go anywhere near as clear, which is a problem on a stripper. E-glass will generally come woth Volan or sometimes Silane sizing, which will work fine with your epoxy. Make sure when you place the order that your seller rolls it on a tube for shipping, rather than folds it.

When it arrives, keep it clean and dry and avoid handling it with bare hands (oily fingerprints are undesirable for proper wet-out, so handle it with gloves). After draping the dry cloth over the hull, and prior to wetting it out with epoxy, I usually walk along with a pair of sissors and trim off the woven selvedge edges of the cloth. This isn't absolutely critical, but it frees-up the weave, allowing it to move on itself a bit more as you begin forming the cloth to the shape of the hull. This helps avoid pesky little spots along the sheer line where the cloth wants to lift off of the wood as you saturate. You know about bias-cut strips for wrapping over the stems.....right?

[gibetheridge]

I just got materials from these people in Vancouver. First rate service and best prices around here.

For the first time I tried using the foam rollers produced by Gougeon Bros. I'll never go back to squeegees, never. It was cleaner, faster and applied a thinner coat. Mixing the resin in small batches in a large paint roller pan gave me a longer pot life as well, due to the higher ratio of heat dissipating surface area to mass. I've tried keeping a coffe can of resin in ice, but it's awkward and there's the likelihood of getting water on the work. Probably old hat to you canoe guys, but just in case.

Another new thing for me was cleaning my hands with white vinegar, then dishsoap and hot water. I never have liked cleaning them with acetone, the stuff goes right through the skin, probably taking the resin with it. Hardening of the arteries?? I wear gloves, but always manage to get some on me. Almost none with the rollers though.

I was coached by a local kayak builder/racer friend. I love learning from other peoples experience, and he's an ace.

http://www.fibertek.ca/materials.htm

[Gary H]

Unless your canoe is going to be dragged over oyster beds on a regular basis, twill fabric is not worth the weight, expense, or extra epoxy. The lightest twills are 8oz, and have a surface that takes a huge amount of resin to fill as compared to standard 6oz cloth. I used 3.7oz S-glass over 4mm plywood for my kayak, and it's survived lots of nasty interactions with rocks and parking lots. So far as S- vs. E- glass, S-glass has a good reputation with the surfboard guys for impact resistance, and the price difference is not great enough to really matter for a small boat project.

If you want a really tough bottom, do a wet-on-wet layup with 5 oz kevlar under 3.7 oz S-glass. Don't try to get the kevlar to go around the chines, just put it on the bottom where it does the most good. Use peel ply to compress everything together, and don't sand through the glass, unless the nightmare of sanding and fairing kevlar is appealing. Also consider how much beer you'd be able to buy for the price of a couple yards of ugly yellow fabric.

I get most of my fiberglass from the local Tap Plastics. Quality is fine, prices are good, and I've never had a problem. Fiberglass Supply and Soller Composites are good sources for the more exotic stuff.
<http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/>
<http://www.solarcomposites.com/>

[Todd Bradshaw]

Kevlar and S-glass are certainly tough, but I suspect that what he's trying to build here is a typical stripper canoe with a clear finish. If that's the intent, those are most certainly NOT the fabrics you want to use, as are Dynel, Xynole, polypropylene, nylon and most of the other possible fabrics that often tend to pop up on sheathing threads. You will not match the clarity of plain old E-glass (or even come close) with any of these fabrics. A strip canoe built with a full layer of 6 oz. E-glass over an additional bottom layer, both inside and out and bias strips over the stems is a pretty tough boat and will maintain good glass clarity. Depending somewhat on your brand and type of resin, you can maintain good clarity with two layers of E-glass up to somewhere in the 7-8 oz. range with high-quality workmanship. Go heavier than that and the clarity usually starts to suffer.

If, on the other hand, you intend to paint the finished hull and skin clarity isn't an issue, then there are plenty of other fabrics (or mixtures of them) that can lend more enhanced durability characteristics to the project. This is 7.5 oz. E-glass, plain weave. I've built a couple boats using 10 oz. E-glass. It's OK in places where it's one layer thick, but when you start using double layers, it starts to show more. For typical recreational canoes, I've never had the feeling that I should have used more than just 6 oz.

[kc8pql]

Make sure when you place the order that your seller rolls it on a tube for shipping, rather than folds it.

This is important. If they won't roll it on a tube for you, go somewhere else.

[botebum]

... I never have liked cleaning them with acetone, the stuff goes right through the skin, probably taking the resin with it. Hardening of the arteries??

The resin on your skin isn't the real danger. Acetone goes straight to the nervous system. Small doses won't have a noticeable effect. Your wife and daughters use it to remove nail polish. Bathing your hands in it daily over an extended period and you'll have a permanent case of the shakes.

Doug

[amish rob]

I like FGCI glass and epoxy.

[Brian Palmer]

This is important. If they won't roll it on a tube for you, go somewhere else.

The fabric I got from Jamestown was folded, but it was a small order.

Brian

[ssor]

MSDS for acetone . It isn't as bad as you may think: http://mfc.engr.arizona.edu/safety/M...ER/Acetone.pdf

[Falcon500]

i just bought 10 yards by 60" six ounce glass from Jamestown and it came on a roll. I used the WEST glass, its more expensive but that coating is what keeps the lake outside of the boat might as well not skimp. I had good luck with it, i glassed the whole boat by myself 15ft by 4ft duckboat.

BTW it took the order a little longer for the shipment, i assume the glass came from Gougeon brothers headquarters in Bay City, Mi. and sent out to the east coast, just to be sent to Michigan again.

[JimD]

I just got materials from these people in Vancouver. First rate service and best prices around here.

For the first time I tried using the foam rollers produced by Gougeon Bros. I'll never go back to squeegees, never. It was cleaner, faster and applied a thinner coat. Mixing the resin in small batches in a large paint roller pan gave me a longer pot life as well, due to the higher ratio of heat dissipating surface area to mass. I've tried keeping a coffe can of resin in ice, but it's awkward and there's the likelihood of getting water on the work. Probably old hat to you canoe guys, but just in case.

Another new thing for me was cleaning my hands with white vinegar, then dishsoap and hot water. I never have liked cleaning them with acetone, the stuff goes right through the skin, probably taking the resin with it. Hardening of the arteries?? I wear gloves, but always manage to get some on me. Almost none with the rollers though.

I was coached by a local kayak builder/racer friend. I love learning from other peoples experience, and he's an ace.

http://www.fibertek.ca/materials.htm

Glad to see you've discovered common vinegar as a cleaning agent and that it is so unnecessary to destroy your skin and liver with acetone. But I don't get the preference to roller over squeezie. How can anything apply a thinner coat than a squeegie? I've used rollers too and still preferr the versatility of a squeegie. Different strokes, one supposes.

[gibetheridge]

I found that when using the squeegee I would dump excess resin in one area and try to spread it evenly to other areas. Besides tending to drag the cloth a bit there would inevitably be small areas that still had excess resin. With the roller I would apply too little resin in one pass, not drag the cloth and keep my hands away from it all. Either way I still tend to work small "micro" air bubbles into it. No matter, this project, I'm going to paint.

[ssor]

Alcohol is a better solvent for epoxy than acetone. I haven't tried vinegar.

[amish rob]

Vinegar is awesome, for lots more besides cleaning epoxy! The only down side is you smell like a sub sandwich or fish 'n' chips when you're done cleaning.

[BerniniCaCO3]

Thanks for the advice!
Lots of good stuff; I had not known about fingerprints, not folding it, or the bias tape (though I think that's in the book I'm reading, I'd just forgotten). Do I need to order tape, or just cut lengths of the cloth along the bias?.

I am indeed going for a clear coat. Sounds like 6oz e-glass.

Good god, the west system fiberglass is expensive! $300+ for a 20yd roll (of 60")!
I'm looking at raka, where I got my epoxy from some time ago (had another project, not involving fiberglass); 5.85/yd if I order 30 yds. Sound reasonable?
jamestown only seems to have 50" cloth :-(

My background is much more in sculpture, lots of plaster work. Fiberglass chop/ strand mat is as cheap as burlap and easy to push into the corners of complex molds, and it's not like ornamental sculpture needs the strength of carefully laminated or vacuum pressed shells.

Oh: before I forget, what should I get for a varnish? I'll be working outdoors; paint on, or spray on if I can borrow a compressor? Other ideas?
I'm trying to order these things now, even though I won't be using the fiberglass for another week or so, and won't be varnishing for two or three weeks.

[pumpkin]

I used resin and cloth from U.S. Composites http://www.shopmaninc.com/index.html . Their service was good. The cloth was well packed and even a 2 yard piece was rolled and bubble wrapped. 25 yards of 6oz 60 inch cloth and resin was around $300 with shipping. The resin blushes so remember to wash well. Matthew

[Todd Bradshaw]

You cut your own bias strips from the roll of cloth. Yep, the WEST fabric is quite pricey. It's supposed to be really good stuff, but I haven't tried it and don't personally know anybody who has tried it - because it's so pricey. In the mean time, regular 6 oz. from other sources seems to be working fine for most folks at a substantially lower cost.

Varnish - You want a high-quality marine varnish with good UV filters (Interlux, Epifanes, etc.). If it offers good UV protection, it will say so on the can. If it's not mentioned, don't buy it. The only common marine varnish brand or model name that I would avoid is "Schooner Varnish". Schooner is good varnish, but there have been cases of it sometimes acting funny and not drying properly over epoxy resin (WEST in particular) that date back as far as 20-25 years. It doesn't happen every time and there are people who regularly use it over epoxy, but it happens often enough to raise an eyebrow - and if it happens to you, you would have one hell of a big sticky mess to sort out before you could finish your boat.

[jimkeen]

You asked a straight forward question. For my money I have had very good service and pricing from

http://www.fiberglasssite.com/servlet/StoreFront