Planking: Bead & Cove, Rapid Strip, Other?

[TerryR]

My business produces wood moldings for the home building and construction industry using Weinig high-speed molding equipment.
Much of what we do is custom where we take a sample of a molding and duplicate it, and we also do high-volume program accounts (50K+ linear feet at a time).

I only point that out to show that my options to mill something are endless.

I'm building the Selway-Fisher 19' Thames, but rather than stitch & tape, I'm doing it in Western Red Cedar strip plank.

I am of course going to run my own strip material on the molder and will likely run maybe 15,000 feet of 5/16" x 7/8" WRC strip for this project (as well as others I have planned) since it only takes maybe three hours to run that quantity.

The thing is, this is my first use of strip for boat construction and while I can cut the knives to do any edge type I want, before I committ to that quantity of run, I'd like to get some feedback from people who have used both Bead & Cove and Rapid Strip plank.
The one thing I don't like about Rapid Strip (tounge & groove) is that when you have to wrap it around a curve, it will pick up on one side and leave a gap the same as if you use straight sawn plank.
I was thinking of maybe putting a 15 degree bevel on just one side that could set to the inside of a curve, but that would still leave a gap when used on flat areas.

Ideas, please?

[Ron Williamson]

That's what's nice about bead and cove.
Changing angle doesn't bother it too much.
If you go with bead and cove consider using a larger radius.That way the sharp edges of the cove won't be as delicate and will tolerate a bit of handling.
So would you be running blanks that are several strips wide and sawing them apart at the last head?
R

[TerryR]

That's what's nice about bead and cove.
Changing angle doesn't bother it too much.
If you go with bead and cove consider using a larger radius.That way the sharp edges of the cove won't be as delicate and will tolerate a bit of handling.
So would you be running blanks that are several strips wide and sawing them apart at the last head?
R

I'm a little confused by the question because when you say "last head", that implies running it through the molder as you say, but when you do multiples through a molder, you can split at the last head but you wouldn't be able to do the edge profiling.
And if you're referring to sawing the blanks to prepare them to run through the molder, then that would imply running them through the gang-rip which does (of course) split at the "only" head with the blade stack, but there is no "last head" on the gang-rip.

I've got some clear 8/4 WRC coming next week, so what I intend to do in order to get the best yield and also insure that I get the straight grain orientation I want for the strips is to run the material this way:
1. Run the rough WRC through the 4-head planer to clean it up.
2. Run those boards through the production resaw on edge in order to end up with the grain properly oriented and to blanks that are 1-15/16" x .410.
3. Run those through the rip-saw to cut them in half.
4. Run the resulting blanks of .410 x 15/16 through the moulder to end up with clean machined strips and with the edge profiling added.

Sounds like a lot of work but it really isn't since all the machinery is high-speed production stuff. Plus, with the housing industry a little "depressed" lately, there are times I'll look for when 2 or 3 of the guys might be looking for something to do.

While I have decided upon the strip size for the 19' Thames and similar size boats I might want to build, I might also do some strips a bit thicker and wider for a larger boat as well, because I've been lusting after the Tahoe 23 for quite a while.

[Sailor]

AHHHH! To have industrial speed production equipement to work with....... You don't by any chance live just down the street from me do you?

[TerryR]

AHHHH! To have industrial speed production equipement to work with....... You don't by any chance live just down the street from me do you?

Sorry, I've been murdering trees from all over the world for almost two decades now, but we perform that dastardly act only in South Texas.

Tell you what, though, I saw what Robbins gets for their Rapid Strip and Bead & Cove in England, and when I convert the cost to dollars, my jaw dropped.
I'm thinking that I could sell the plank at half the cost and still have to use a wheel barrow to take the money to the bank.
In these times when housing is in the crapper, I'm looking for another avenue for revenue, and this is a possibility.
The only problem is demand. I'm not so sure that the market is that big for it in the Texas area.

Just thinkin' out loud.

[JimConlin]

I suspect that what Ron had in mind was cutting multiple beads on one side of a 7/8" board and multiple flutes on the other and then gang-slicing a number of strips apart. If your machinery could do that, it'd save lots of passes.

Thinking back on the strip boats I've built, the tightest curvature I can remember was about 6 degrees per strip, so if you were to cock one side of a T&G edging 2-3 degrees that'd split the difference. On 5/16" strips, that'd give gaps of about .02" on the inside of a flat section or on the outside of the tightest curve. If the boat is to be finished bright, that's too wide.

On cove&bead, using a flute diameter that's larger than the thickness willl make the cove edge less fragile, but will cause strips to offset in the curved sections. This'll make fairing much more difficult. I prefer to mill the coves a bit less that full depth so that a square edge is left. Maybe 1/64" on 5/16" strips. It gets removed in the fairing.

My biggest complaint with commercially milled strips, aside from the cost, is that they are not very well color matched, so a bright finished boat has a blotchy appearance, which I don't like. Careful stock selection would yield a more valuable product.

[TerryR]

I suspect that what Ron had in mind was cutting multiple beads on one side of a 7/8" board and multiple flutes on the other and then gang-slicing a number of strips apart. If your machinery could do that, it'd save lots of passes.

Got it, but no. The requirement to control the product before and after the splitting head would certainly damage the delicate edges of the cove side for sure. And easing up on the hold-down pressure would allow kick-backs at best, and would "explode" some of the product as well.
Been there, done that, don't want to do it again.

Thinking back on the strip boats I've built, the tightest curvature I can remember was about 6 degrees per strip, so if you were to cock one side of a T&G edging 2-3 degrees that'd split the difference. On 5/16" strips, that'd give gaps of about .02" on the inside of a flat section or on the outside of the tightest curve. If the boat is to be finished bright, that's too wide.

And that means that the standard straight cut of the available Rapid Strip would allow even wider gaps to the outside of a curve which would make situation even worse with wider gaps yet.

On cove&bead, using a flute diameter that's larger than the thickness willl make the cove edge less fragile, but will cause strips to offset in the curved sections. This'll make fairing much more difficult. I prefer to mill the coves a bit less that full depth so that a square edge is left. Maybe 1/64" on 5/16" strips. It gets removed in the fairing.

I was already thinking that very thought. The square edge left would only have to be maybe .005 or so at best to add the strength needed to protect the edge, and as you say, the fairing before glassing would take it all down flush.

My biggest complaint with commercially milled strips, aside from the cost, is that they are not very well color matched, so a bright finished boat has a blotchy appearance, which I don't like. Careful stock selection would yield a more valuable product.

True, but that's when you want to order just an exact amount for your project, and even then, you can personally sort out for color and use it to one's advantage by making use of some of it for accent on the sides and putting all the "ugly" stuff on the bottom which would end up with a not terribly unpleasant two-tone boat.
For myself, that's one reason why I'm going to mill up so much extra so that I can pre-sort the entire batch of 15K feet into major color groups.

Good contribution, Jim.
I think I'll be going with the Bead & Cove using your suggestion to keep the "full" Cove for proper plank-to-plank positioning, but allowing for some "strong" edges by the way I mill it.

[Mrleft8]

Think [mmmmmmmmmmm] Then at the last head cut them into nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnns.

[TerryR]

Think [mmmmmmmmmmm] Then at the last head cut them into nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnns.

Hmmmmmm....

The thing is, I have a lot of experience producing really small profiles. In fact, I've got a bit of a reputation for being able to push spaghetti through a molder.

But the reality is that when you get to really small profiles, running them as multiples is extremely problematic.
While it's always tempting, my experience has shown that running tiny multiples will make a person really old, really fast.

So I more often rely on jointed high-speed to improve production rather than multiples for the most part.
I can run 6000 l.ft. per hour putting out a higher quality product than a non-jointed molder running at 2000 ft. per hour, so that's the way I typically go.

[JimConlin]

I have no experience with that kind of machinery, just table saw and router table. They do the job, but slowly.
Every time I run a set of strips, I swear that next time, i'll work out a two-router setup with a feeder.

[Ron Williamson]

Jim's right about what I was thinking.
The last time we pushed 1x1 through our moulder most of it went up the pipe,but it's an old push-feed that is more suited to rough stuff.
We use it for flooring mostly.

Most people don't realize the implications of being able to run 6k ft/hr.
We run at 2.4k ft. for an hour or two a month.
That's 2k sq.ft of 6" floor with a value added of a buck/sq.ft.

R

[paladin]

I have used the strip plank stuff using the "Speed Strip", and I have built using the bead and cove....much, MUCH prefer the bead and cove. My 44 footer was built that way.

[Canoez]

I have no experience with that kind of machinery, just table saw and router table. They do the job, but slowly.
Every time I run a set of strips, I swear that next time, i'll work out a two-router setup with a feeder.

If you're going to do a fair number of strips, that's a must, IMO. Also, a gang-sawing assembly for cutting strips is awful nice. We cut two strips per pass using a table saw.

[TerryR]

Jim's right about what I was thinking.
The last time we pushed 1x1 through our moulder most of it went up the pipe,but it's an old push-feed that is more suited to rough stuff.
We use it for flooring mostly.

The newer equipment can do some pretty amazing things if the technician is really up on the process.

One of our larger accounts is running 150K l.ft. of 1/8" x 15/16" S4S (edge molding) every other month from Red Oak as well as Maple.
While an occasional piece will blow up and require clearing and a reset, it's really an easy run for the most part.

[Ron Williamson]

Sweet.
That's so tiny.
A little short-grain on the end of a blank and it's the end of the show for me.
R

[JimConlin]

There are people building marathon racing canoes with cedar strips about 3/32" x 3/4". I expect that the milling is not uneventful.

[Mrleft8]

This very much reminds me of my initial thoughts on the cover of FINE WOOD WORKING this month. The lead article is something like "Hand plane, or sander, which is FASTER"
When did the magazizine become "FAST WOOD WORKING"?
I guess my point is; will you get a superior product by blowing out 6,000 l f an hour, or by carefully cutting what you need over the course of a day?

[Canoez]

Putting things in perspective, for a small Wee Lassie canoe (11-1/2' long), we cut and mold about 1/4 mile of linear strips - takes about an hour to rip and an hour and a quarter to mold them with a dual router set-up. Not a huge amount of time.

A larger canoe, the 15' Prospector Ranger by Steve Killing (Sold by Ted Moores at Bear Mountain Boats) was just shy of a 1/3 mile of linear strip, IIRC. (This is with some spares.)

[TerryR]

This very much reminds me of my initial thoughts on the cover of FINE WOOD WORKING this month. The lead article is something like "Hand plane, or sander, which is FASTER"
When did the magazizine become "FAST WOOD WORKING"?
I guess my point is; will you get a superior product by blowing out 6,000 l f an hour, or by carefully cutting what you need over the course of a day?

Actually, the way jointed molders work, that 6000 l.ft./hr. is of a higher quality in both precision dimension and surface quality than can be done any other way.

[Mrleft8]

I'm sure it is Terry. Not casting aspersions. I know how accurate and efficient high quality milling systems are.
I was just making a comment on the way people approach a project. You have the capability to do what most of us can't even conceive of.
As a humble craftsman, I look to the most efficient way that I can do a project with my limited equipment.
(And seriously...... No snark intended)

[JimConlin]

Every now and then we get tangled up in the craftsmanship of risk/craftsmanship of certainty discussion, but I can't imagine that there'd be much argument that one shouldn't mill canoe strips with most precise and efficient technology their capital budget could fund.

[TerryR]

I'm sure it is Terry. Not casting aspersions. I know how accurate and efficient high quality milling systems are.
I was just making a comment on the way people approach a project. You have the capability to do what most of us can't even conceive of.
As a humble craftsman, I look to the most efficient way that I can do a project with my limited equipment.
(And seriously...... No snark intended)

No snark assumed.

I'm a humble craftsman myself and understand the point. On the other hand, anyone in South Texas who's wants to have access to my capabilities are welcome to contact me. That way, anyone could save the time prepping and spend more time building.
If I could get maybe 5 or 6 builders together (at least), you'd be surprised how inexpensive I could run the Cove & Bead strip on a per l.ft. basis.

I hope this doesn't constitute an "illegal" advertisement on the forum because I really don't mean it to be.
Just trying to help fellow builders.

[paladin]

Just thinking......a 20 foot displacement hull, sorta like a Hess Channel cutter.....using bead and cove 1 inch planks, 1.25 inches with the bead.....surface area 628 sq. feet.......one would need some 21 foot planks, or the same sq. feet to scarph to length......but if the planks were continuous you would need 1400 strips.....so how would/could you package the strips, per running foot or by bundle or sq. feet total?

oops...I think I slipped a digit somewhere.....gonna hafta recalculate but 628 sq. feet surface are, and 2.2 sq. feet per plank comes out to about 285 strips....or 300 to be safe at 21 feetz long. Same questions as above...

[JimConlin]

Chuck,
With strips that narrow and a paint finish intended, I'd consider forgetting scarphing altogether and simply butting the strips with an 8d nail into the next plank per end. Being able to use mill-run lengths would simplify a lot of things.

[paladin]

and also be capable of being hauled away in a pick um up......and having the stem and frames made from thin strips laminated together reduces the size of the solid wood parts and the entire boat could be precut and loaded on a pallet or two....or bundled together.