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Thread: technical layout

  1. #36

    Default Re: technical layout

    http://www.hytta.de/index_f.htm?oefen/421.htm

    If you plan to use one of these; remember: Never, never ever sleep in the same room.. When I was a kid i used to work in bridge constructing and similar ovens were used to heat the cabs. One day all of the ovens were replaced by husquarna kerosene heaters which drew air from outside. In time for me but too late for some of my co workers.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: technical layout

    About that engine air. The engine needs air for combustion but it also needs to get rid of heated air.

    You do not want the engine to get its air from the interior of the boat only. because you could die from affixiation (lack of oxygen).

    Make a 6 inch diameter opening in the cockpit for air intake to the engine, and a 6 inch opening a few feet away for hot air to leave the engine area.
    The exhaust vent should come into the engine compartment at the top and the intake air should enter the engine compartment down low.

    You could use PVC fittings with screw on caps to close them if necessary.
    OT just look in the marine catalogs or hardware store and be creative.
    Make a hood over the openings so rain cannot enter.
    Lots of things you could use.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Quote Originally Posted by Venchka View Post
    Cockpit propane locker. Photo borrowed from Paul Gartside's web page showing the construction of a 24' boat. Paul was the designer/builder. A very neat and shipshape installation.

    The fully gallery for other ideas: http://www.gartsideboats.com/gallery.php


    Nice workmanship Venchka.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Some notes:

    I'd avoid kerosene heaters for any small enclosed space. There are small catalytic heaters that use 1-lb. propane cylinders that can take the chill off your cabin, but should be shut off before sleeping (or late-night reading, sex, etc.)

    If you'll be weekending or doing short cruises, as opposed to living aboard, you don't need a big propane cylinder. Better off with a campstove setup, like the SeaSwing (if you have a place to mount it). Or a hanging stove.

    Here are three examples:



    An alcohol stove made with a Trangia burner and a cheap aluminum saucepan. Boils a pint of water in 7-8 minutes, with a tapered pot that fits the windscreen (that also concentrates heat on the pot).

    Here's my favorite, the same cheap saucepan with a Coleman Exponent Xtreme stove disassembled to fit.



    Really hot, very safe, cartridges are recyclable.

    This is a commercial hanger, the MSR SuperFly stove with Ascent hanging kit and windscreen:



    The brass thingies affixed to the gas cartridge are heat exchangers I built for extremely cold winter use (not recommended otherwise).

    Any of these would do fine for making coffee & tea or warming soups and stews. But none of the SeaSwing or hanging stoves will accept a frypan.

    That alone might sway me toward the standard Primus/Coleman/Brunton 2-burner campstove-in-a-box, which we use on whitewater trips.

    To underline, don't over-equip the boat as a liveaboard or distance cruiser if you're unlikely to use it that way. Extra work, extra weight, more $$$.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Cookie, interesting thread mate, I'll read through it myself in more detail because I'll be doing much the same as you for my H28.

    However, one comment on the batteries, while you will want to keep as much weight as low as possible, including most likely your start and house battery, DO definitely have a separate radio battery for your VHF mounted high, say behind your radio, for use in the (unlikely) event that you take on more water than you can pump out.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  6. #41
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Quote Originally Posted by donald branscom View Post
    Make a 6 inch diameter opening in the cockpit for air intake to the engine, and a 6 inch opening a few feet away for hot air to leave the engine area.
    The exhaust vent should come into the engine compartment at the top and the intake air should enter the engine compartment down low.

    You could use PVC fittings with screw on caps to close them if necessary.
    OT just look in the marine catalogs or hardware store and be creative.
    Make a hood over the openings so rain cannot enter.
    Lots of things you could use.
    The engine ventilation has me thinking a bit. At the moment I am thinking about a short pvc pipe, going from the engine well to the aft storage box. Entering the storage box at the bottom, running almost until the top (under side of rear deck) and have an air vent in the rear deck a couple inches away.
    Not sure whether this will be enough ventilation though
    When you're chewing on life's gristle
    Don't grumble, give a whistle...

  7. #42
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Interesting stuff there Chip-Skiff, you got me inspired.


    However, one comment on the batteries, while you will want to keep as much weight as low as possible, including most likely your start and house battery, DO definitely have a separate radio battery for your VHF mounted high, say behind your radio, for use in the (unlikely) event that you take on more water than you can pump out.
    Cheers Greg,
    I surely want them working when I mostly need them.... and I like your idea of an extra higher mounted small battery. I was under the ignorant impression that 12V or 14V batteries kept working for a while when under water, but I guess not long enough when slowly taking in water..... Brrrr, I don't want to think of it!
    When you're chewing on life's gristle
    Don't grumble, give a whistle...

  8. #43
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Quote Originally Posted by cookie View Post
    Interesting stuff there Chip-Skiff, you got me inspired.



    Cheers Greg,
    I surely want them working when I mostly need them.... and I like your idea of an extra higher mounted small battery. I was under the ignorant impression that 12V or 14V batteries kept working for a while when under water, but I guess not long enough when slowly taking in water..... Brrrr, I don't want to think of it!
    Or a backup handheld that will work in the unlikely event that your vessel is gone.
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

  9. #44
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Good suggestion, but how is the reach on these hand helds, are they any good? Can the antenna be connected to the mast antenna?
    When you're chewing on life's gristle
    Don't grumble, give a whistle...

  10. #45
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Yeah, they are as good as the earth is flat. Mine has dual wattage aswell. 1 or 5 watts. Save the battery or get that boost. And they are inexpensive. What is the range on a mounted unit with antenna upon the mast? Only as far as the horizon, right? 20 to 30 miles or something like that?
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

  11. #46
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    Default Re: technical layout

    The difference is actually more like up to maybe 50 to 60 miles for a higher wattage transmitter with the aerial up the mast (depending on the height of the mast) versus 4 to 5 miles for a hand held at deck level. Chuck may be along to clarify that.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  12. #47
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Quote Originally Posted by cookie View Post
    The engine ventilation has me thinking a bit. At the moment I am thinking about a short pvc pipe, going from the engine well to the aft storage box. Entering the storage box at the bottom, running almost until the top (under side of rear deck) and have an air vent in the rear deck a couple inches away.
    Not sure whether this will be enough ventilation though
    A 6 inch diameter vent for heat coming from the engine compartment will be fine.
    I got that size measurement from a book written by 4 of the worlds experts in yacht design and I personally tested it and it worked. The warm air coming from the engine compartment from the heat around the engine is welcome and helps make a source to stay warm when it is cold outside.
    Last edited by donald branscom; 05-08-2010 at 05:23 AM.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: technical layout

    About your water tank in the forepeak.
    I would try to get that tank under one of the dinette seats and have that weight closer to the center of the boat.

    Put light weight things in the fore peak.
    And remember you will already have the anchor and line /chain up on the bow too.

    Speaking of weight ...What about getting the batteries opposite the diesel tank
    under that dinette seat or under the stove next to the engine compartment.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Quote Originally Posted by cookie View Post
    Another book

    I plowed through 3 books today, and none had the answers. Or at least not as good as the answers I got above.

    Still, I think it will be difficult to find a good solution for ventilating the propane storage area, as it is so low, the bottom of the tank probably being a couple inches below the waterline.....
    The problem with a lot of those books is they are talking to the people that just use their boat a couple days of the summer.
    Seek out books for live aboard set ups. Much better long term thinking.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Quote Originally Posted by donald branscom View Post
    About your water tank in the forepeak.
    I would try to get that tank under one of the dinette seats and have that weight closer to the center of the boat.

    Put light weight things in the fore peak.
    And remember you will already have the anchor and line /chain up on the bow too.

    Speaking of weight ...What about getting the batteries opposite the diesel tank
    under that dinette seat or under the stove next to the engine compartment.
    Yes , well that's the next thing to get out of the bow , put you chain box at the base of the mast .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  16. #51
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    I used a Toyostove (Japanese original of the once US popular Kerosun) that's not unlike that unit in #22 except the model I had was rectangular and squatter making it a nudge safer. Also, the real Japanese units had the "rat trap" - a spring loaded shut plate that smothered the flame in the event of a shaking - not a bad thing in an earthquake area.

    There are a number of major dangers to these in a boat.

    - The exhaust is not vented. That sort of flame does not make CO, but it does make CO2 so you need venting of the cabin in general. Also any combustion also produces something called H2O - so it's not as dry a heat as other choises.

    - The fuel cup down arond the bottom of the wick is not slosh resistant. I solved that by stuffing it with bronze wool.

    - My unit had a removable fuel tank - could be taken out without turning the unit off - so filling could be done outdoors. I've not seen a cylindrical with this feature. Most fires started in the US with these units started at the fueling cycle.

    The rocking of the boat can let air get to the bottom of the gravity feed that leads to the wick cup, causing it to over-fill. I came home to the boat one stormy evening to find the smell of kero strong and a puddle on the sole around the still running heater.

    The cylindricals are nearly guarenteed to tip over in a windy storm at the dock or mooring, or even a tug boat wash.

    If you are insured, the insurance company will cancell the minute the learn of this thing, which may be after the fire.

    The heaters in their proper place are really wonderful in their place ashore, usually in the garage or barn or henhouse. I've always felt that the Toyostove-Kerosun ought to be marinizable but as they are, DON'T.

    I love gasoline camping stoves but even the safest among them can do as my Svea did in 1968 in the Italian Alps - - - left me with second and third degree burns on both shins, no eyebrows, and took out two nearby tents with gear inside. Again, DON'T.
    Many people are very afraid of ANYTHING that can cause a fire. Propane is very safe.
    In eleven years as a live aboard I only saw one accident with propane and it was an old man living on a boat with rusty, out of date propane tanks and the inside of the boat looked like a rats nest. The person just got so old he could not take care of himself or the boat. Luckily he did not get hurt and no one else got hurt.

    As far as what you say about crew weight off setting the weight of batteries in the bow of the boat I would be thinking that not everyone sails with a "crew".
    Usually I would always sail alone single handed. That way I got to sail a lot more because I did not have to wait for people to show up on time, worry about them getting drunk on my boat. and trying to not step on them while I was moving around in the cockpit. Then clean up after them when they got back to the dock.
    I suppose if I had a big pirate type ship, I could just have them thrown down below into the hold until they "aquired" boat etiquette.

    A gasoline camping stove!!!! Now that is a fire hazard!!!
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    The difference is actually more like up to maybe 50 to 60 miles for a higher wattage transmitter with the aerial up the mast (depending on the height of the mast) versus 4 to 5 miles for a hand held at deck level. Chuck may be along to clarify that.
    That is quite a difference eh, Larks.Surely one must be able to attain those same reaches of tranmission with an handheld connected to an external, mast mounted aerial, (or antenna for the Americans), which is what I have in mind.

    This is what I have.





    MULTI-BAND POWERHOUSE WITH 1700mAh LI-ION BATTERY!
    • DSC Distress with GPS position
    • GPS NMEA input
    • AM/FM and aircraft band receive
    • Speaker microphone jack
    • 700mW Loud speaker audio
    • Large volume control knob
    • NOAA Weather alert
    • Selectable 5/2.5 and 1W transmit power output
    • IPX7 Submersible to 3 Feet for 30 minutes
    • Supplied with 1700mAh Li-Ion battery, AC and DC chargers with cradle
    • Programmable scanning and Dual watch
    • SOS Strobe Light
    • Voice scrambler capable
    • Case size: 2.3”W x 4.09”H x 1.2”



    DSC Distress with GPS Position
    The HX600S-Li submersible radio is capable of being connected to a GPS through the charging cradle, which allows DSC distress calls to be sent with your vessels position, a handy feature if you have to get off your vessel in a hurry.
    Unique SOS Strobe light
    In an emergency, the unique super bright LED distress strobe light, blinks internationally recognized SOS to visually signal another vessel.
    Unique Audio Tone Control
    The submersible HX600S produces 700mW (loud) of speaker audio output with Audio (bass and treble) Tone Control so you can hear communications even in the noisiest of environments.
    AM/FM and Airband recieve
    Advanced receiver capabilities allow you to listen to FM music stations, AM broadcast band and Aeronautical bands.
    Included accessories
    Supplied with a high-capacity non-memory 1700mAh Litium-Ion battery, AC and DC charger with drop-in cradle
    Additional features
    Dedicated 16/9 key, user changeable channel names, NOAA weather channels with Alert, dual watch, tri-watch, programmable and priority scanning to keep you on top of what is happening on the water. Speaker microphones, headset and optional voice scrambler are an available options.
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

  18. #53
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    Default Re: technical layout

    Oh boy, a lot to think about....

    As for the location of the diesel tank, I am still undecided on where to place it. Aft of the engine, or in the SB storage box. Aft of the engine would be easiest to install, but might result in increased condensation in the fuel.

    I have decided on the water tank. It will be removed from the front and "split" into two smaller tanks. One in seat B, and the other probably in the galley lower cupboard, opposite of seat B.

    The anchor at the base of the mast sure has advantages, but so does having room to stand there, so again something I have not yet decided about. I might if I can think of a practical box design.
    When you're chewing on life's gristle
    Don't grumble, give a whistle...

  19. #54
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    Default Re: technical layout

    You can either mount an antenna at the masthead, or build one inside the mast using a dollars worth of materials plus the cable...the antenna will actually "amplify" the signal to 4 times the transmitter output or the equivalent of 8 times the radiation of the little stubby antenna on the radio....a little 5 watt handheald will work like a 40 watt radio. Send e-mail for drawings/explanation.
    Chuck
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