BoatUS survey on lifejackets

[yzer]

I received the BoatUS survey on lifejackets with the email today. This survey asks for opinions regarding future legislation (I assume) of adult lifejacket use.

You can't legislate common sense, but I believe lives would be saved with some laws regarding adults wearing life jackets.

All watercraft 16' and under? That makes sense to me. But my old wooden 26' Chris-Craft cruiser has cockpit coamings high enough to prevent anyone from falling overboard in rough weather. A lot of boats this size don't have this feature.

Lifejackets mandatory while underway or on the deck while boating alone? This makes sense to me although the safety factor in having another person onboard requires that they be able to use a throwable PFD, a boathook, a VHF radio or operate the boat. I boat single-handed a lot.

Do you really need a lifejacket while operating in an enclosed cockpit with remote controlled anchoring?

Wearing of lifejackets mandatory while operating at night or dusk?

What do you think about mandatory lifejacket use regulations for adults?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

....

What do you think about mandatory lifejacket use regulations for adults?

Dumb idea.

"Better drowned than duffers - if not duffers won't drown".

[Ian McColgin]

I like the laws pretty much as they are - carry but not required to wear.

If they want to save laws, regulate against us guys exercising the sea dog's prerogative over the side - 87% of male overboards that result in drowning have their flys down.

But I'm against that also. After all, I am man; the world is my urinal.

[bamamick]

As a sometimes singlehanded dinghy sailor, I strongly advocate wearing a life vest if you are on the water in such a boat. Since it is a requirement at almost any regatta anyway, we have all become used to it.

Do I want to be forced to wear a jacket in my Dragon or Star? No, I do not. I really don't want to be forced to wear one on any boat where there are enough people to control the boat should a crew member go swimming. Singlehanded boats are a different story. I don't know about making it a law, but we pretty much all do it on our own anyway.

Mickey Lake

[switters]

I hate to see it mandated, but I'm sure it will happen.

I was looking up the Colorado state boating regulations just to make sure I knew what was current. Interesting revelations, I have to register the puffer, and write my name and address in the canoes. I can also now be charged with BUI in a canoe. And I am supposed to be carrying a signal device. Which I have been because it was mandated in Min. the last time i was up there and I haven't taken the whistle out of the PFD. And I need register the home made sailboat, and the skiff if I ever put so much as a trolling motor on it.

I didn't see the need to register the 12- sailboat but I suppose I will because my usual haunts are no wake-no sailing, and the sailing lakes are high traffic.

And i do wear my PFD when solo in the back country, but not fishing locally unless the wind comes up, which means I'm headed for the closest shore anyway.

[Paul Pless]

I can also now be charged with BUI in a canoe.

that hurts

[yzer]

A high percentage of boat drowning victims in our area are found to have no life jacket, high blood alcohol levels and unzipped flys.

[rbgarr]

Not legal, but these look comfortable... and pricey. http://www.boats.com/boat-content/20...by-float-tech/

[Paul Pless]

A high percentage of boat drowning victims in our area are found to have no life jacket, high blood alcohol levels and unzipped flys.

I wonder how much of an urban legend that is. Living on a river for practically all my life and spending a great deal of time on lakes, rivers, the gulf, and the ocean; I've run across a number of drownings over the years either in person or in the news, and I've never seen that type of drowning to be factual. It seems to me that most drownings that involve boats, include either alcohol, a boat collision, a head injury, a night time accident, or exposure as contributing factors; on rivers, being overcome by current and pulled under in eddies is a common theme - I've rescued three such victims - including one Alabama State Marine Police officer.

[yzer]

I wonder how much of an urban legend that is. Living on a river for practically all my life and spending a great deal of time on lakes, rivers, the gulf, and the ocean; I've run across a number of drownings over the years either in person or in the news, and I've never seen that type of drowning to be factual. It seems to me that most drownings that involve boats, include either a boat collision, a head injury, a night time accident, or exposure as contributing factors; on rivers, being overcome by current and pulled under in eddies is a common theme - I've rescued three such victims - including one Alabama State Marine Police officer.

I suspect that the open fly story is 75% urban legend: partly true. USCG fatality stats will bear out that alcohol (higher levels = more dangerous) and boat size (smaller = more dangerous) and the absence of a lifejacket are big contributors in boat drownings but I haven't seen statistics on the fly issue. It's too bad that Sheriff's departments and USCG don't combine data to provide more meaningful information.

[Dan McCosh]

Making wearing pfds mandatory would likely increase harassment with no real effect on either wearing them when needed, or boating fatalities. For one thing, when they are needed, enforcement people are not around anyway. When they are not needed, tickets will fly.

[switters]

that hurts

The last bastion of besotted has been breached.

[KMacDonald]

Boaters Choice.

[Paul Pless]

The last bastion of besotted has been breached.

i shall be reduced to an inner tube

[Ian McColgin]

Open fly? Of course it's 'longshore legend. I change the percentage every time I retell it because I can't remember what I said before. But it's something that resonates for every guy who's taken his place at the rail, especially those so nervous that they can't relax enough to do what needs to be done.

It also is a real hazard because sailors are often wearing oilies or whatever that make access problematic and you need one hand to hold the cloths out of the way and another hand to keep your aim clear and that third hand to hang on to the boat.

[Stan D]

The "Open Fly" thing reminds me of a story. And also the reason why I'll never be caught in that situation.

A bunch of us were in a restaurant in Georgia, when one of our party ordered something with pecans. She pronounced it "peecans", and I don't know why, but the waiter corrected her and said"Do you mean pecaans?". After he left the table, I proceeded to tell her that a "peecan" was what her great grandfather had on his boat so he wouldn't be in danger of falling overboard.

[tomlarkin]

I am man; the world is my urinal.

Ian, that's pretty catchy. Can I use it for my tag line?

[michigangeorge]

NO MORE FFing RULES ON THE WATER!!! I'm sick of being harassed by all the various incompetent water police our taxes are being wasted on. We are losing more freedoms each and every day in this country - enough allready!!!!!!!

[Paul Pless]

NO MORE FFing RULES ON THE WATER!!! I'm sick of being harassed by all the various incompetent water police our taxes are being wasted on. We are losing more freedoms each and every day in this country - enough allready!!!!!!!

>

[Ian McColgin]

Anyone can use "the world is my urinal." The more the better. Let us rise up against those sensitive Canadians and the Moose Lodge Man's Prayer.

I guess.

[Dan McCosh]

That's the Possum Lodge.

[Ian McColgin]

Thank you. I stand corrected.

[ion barnes]

I will speak of the unzipped fly. My wife's nephew, a commercial fisherman, several years ago while tied to a wharf, at night, in a tipsy state, went on deck to relieve himself, stepped on a water hose or a line and went into the chuck; no lifejacket, no one else on board, and cant swim. He hung onto the vessel's rub rail calling for help for almost a 1/2 hour before someone heard a faint hollering and found him. I asked the nephew some time later whether he was going to learn to swim or wear a PFD. "No, had not really thought about that, but I was sure that I was a goner."

Old dogs - no tricks.

[Ron Williamson]

"You know what I like about the great outdoors?"
"It's one giant toilet."
From The Big Chill.
R

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Perhaps the world would be a better place if all PFDs 'n' Lifejackets were banned.

Might get folks properly focused on primary safety.

[Fitz]

FWIW: We here in Massachusetts have an existing inland cold water mandatory pfd law requiring everyone to wear one from 15 September to 15 May.

Fitzy's informal survey of local inland waters this week identified 6 canoeists, 4 kayakers, and a crew of two in a rubber raft without PFDs on despite the presence of cold flood waters.

I think education is a better answer, but you can't always educate the stoopid out of people (or something like that).

[Tom Robb]

I am man; the world is my urinal
The laugh is much appreciated.
Thanks Ian.

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

i shall be reduced to an inner tube

Well if you take one out on the Potomac near me PFD's are MANDATORY and they WILL ticket you.

CG drowning stats will tell you that the majority of victims were in a small open boat. IE jonboat, etc. Very few are sailors.

Lack of appropriate choices in recreational boating. In 2006, the U.S. Coast Guard received reports for 4,967 boating incidents; 3,474 boaters were reported injured, and 710 died. Among those who drowned, 9 out of ten were not wearing life jackets. Most boating fatalities from 2006 (70%) were caused by drowning; the remainder were due to trauma, hypothermia, carbon monoxide poisoning, or other causes. Open motor boats were involved in 45% of all reported incidents, and personal watercraft were involved in another 24%.2

LINK


I just took the Safety at Sea seminar and one thing that was emphasized was that you will Drown before you die of Hyperthermia if you don't have flotation.

That said, I do NOT want the govt telling me when I have to wear a life jacket. There are times it is entirely appropriate to wear one as are times not to wear one. We don't need some water version of Barney Fife hauling people off for not wearing.

I wear when I think the conditions warrant. Just as I decide when the conditions are safe for ME to take a boat out. Or not.

Reminds me of the floods of 1996 on the Potomac river. Davey Hearn, 3 time Olympian white water canoeist went out for a paddle. US Park police ordered him off the river and arrested him, but not before they slid down the embankment where he was trying to beach, fell in the water on top of him and they all ended up in drink. ( the river runs THROUGH the National Park)
Think bumbling idiots. Oh, and the judge threw out the case b/c the river belongs to Maryland and they don't "close" the river.

[Paul Pless]

Reminds me of the floods of 1996 on the Potomac river. Davey Hearn, 3 time Olympian white water canoeist went out for a paddle. US Park police ordered him off the river and arrested him, but not before they slid down the embankment where he was trying to beach, fell in the water on top of him and they all ended up in drink. ( the river runs THROUGH the National Park)
Think bumbling idiots. Oh, and the judge threw out the case b/c the river belongs to Maryland and they don't "close" the river.

i think i saw video of this incident

[SARdean]

Anyone can use "the world is my urinal." The more the better. Let us rise up against those sensitive Canadians and the Moose Lodge Man's Prayer.

I guess.

It's not that Canucks are sensitive... it's just that it's so cold up here that as soon as y'r pee hits the air, it instantly freezes solid

Thing is, some of the folks behind campaigns to increase the wearing of PFDs can be connected with manufacturers or distributors of personal flotation products.

In some parts (states?) of Australia, I think I read somewhere, adult boaters started to be required to wear lifejackets. I was following this since there's a group in Canada lobbying for mandatory wearing regulations (www.CSBC.ca), so it would be interesting to see what impact the changes in Aussie state regulations have had on their rate of boating fatalities.

[Boatguy1972]

I've been involved in maritime law enforcement and search & rescue most of my adult life. While I strongly suggest that PFD's be worn, I am against the notion of making them mandatory (excluding children, of course). Although, I fear that it is only a matter of time before they are made mandatory.

[Garret]

Please protect us from those who'd protect us from ourselves. If I wanna wear one or not is my own damn business. OK, maybe my family's as well.

Do I on a sunny day with a 10 knot breeze & 4 people on the boat? Heck no. Night or heavy weather/fog sailing, everyone on deck wears a pfd & is hooked to a jack line. Duh.

I'll tick some people off & throw out the "survival of the fittest" comment here......

Of course then there was Elizabeth Dole's idea (when she was head of NHTSA) that all motorcycles should have a cage around them & the rider strapped in. I think all boats should be encased in one to prevent falling overboard.

[Ron Williamson]

How about,
"No boats allowed in water deep enough to float them."
"That which isn't mandatory is prohibited."
R

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Nancy and I both have automatic inflatable which we wear in any of the smaller boats we have. We don't wear them in the cruiser, but that is a very different situation. I used to swim like a fish, but I'm over 50, and I often sail or motor around in small boats at the beginning and the end of the season. Inflatables are comfortable and cool to wear. I have no problems wearing one.

[Garret]

Nancy and I both have automatic inflatable which we wear in any of the smaller boats we have. We don't wear them in the cruiser, but that is a very different situation. I used to swim like a fish, but I'm over 50, and I often sail or motor around in small boats at the beginning and the end of the season. Inflatables are comfortable and cool to wear. I have no problems wearing one.

I have no problem with mine either, but I do have a problem with someone (who isn't my mom;-) telling me I have to wear it. Don't you?

[Lew Barrett]

That makes three of us who like our inflatables.

We have a lot of different life jackets on board but I only wear the inflatables now that we have them. I won't fail to bring them when using a shore boat. But I don't like the idea of having it mandated. I just put the inflatable on as soon as I get into a small boat. It's easy to wear and doesn't get in the way. A great invention for coastal/inshore work.

[Breakaway]

Like FITZ said for MASS, here in NY we now MUST wear them from fall to spring. I cant argue with the logic of a mandatory PFD law....but at the same time, I dont like it.

Open Flies? A buddy is a rescue swimmer for the 106 Rescue Wing--you know the guys who leave the Sikorsky helo and go into the raging water to rescue someone. He's yanked his share of male bodies from the sea and says many do indeed have open zippers.... FWIW

[Boatguy1972]

Like FITZ said for MASS, here in NY we now MUST wear them from fall to spring. I cant argue with the logic of a mandatory PFD law....but at the same time, I dont like it.

Open Flies? A buddy is a rescue swimmer for the 106 Rescue Wing--you know the guys who leave the Sikorsky helo and go into the raging water to rescue someone. He's yanked his share of male bodies from the sea and says many do indeed have open zippers.... FWIW

Your in East Quogue? I was stationed at E. Moriches & Shinnecock 95'-01' back when I was still a Coastie..

[htom]

Education cures ignorance; for stupidity, there is no hope.

Inflatables are wonderful things.

Laws requiring the wearing of PFDs ... if you're too stupid or ignorant, the law won't help, and you'll be hassled by other stupids or ignorants for not obeying the law in those situations where it doesn't make sense. No thank you.

[zertgold]

Walking around with your shoes untied is dangerous. You could trip and fall and possibly hurt you or someone else. Your fall could be fatal.
We need to fine those people who don't tie their shoe laces. Double knots is safer so a fine for those only using single knots would save the most lives.

[Breakaway]

Your in East Quogue? I was stationed at E. Moriches & Shinnecock 95'-01' back when I was still a Coastie..

The you wuz protectin my sorry butt! (LOL)

So, as retired CG, whats your take on the open fly scenario?

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Walking around with your shoes untied is dangerous. You could trip and fall and possibly hurt you or someone else. Your fall could be fatal.
We need to fine those people who don't tie their shoe laces. Double knots is safer so a fine for those only using single knots would save the most lives.

I think the question here is related to something a little different than shoelaces. I don't like the idea of legislation that limits my rights as a person, but there are similiar examples already... the one that comes to mind immediately is seatbelts. There was a fight over "rights" when that law came out too. Perhaps we should eliminate speed limits too... I for one can drive safely at high speeds, why shouldn't I be able to? Lets vote for legalization of cocaine, marijuana, and other addictive hallucinogenic drugs. After all it's my choice.

The issue with lifejackets is almost moot with responsible boaters, although a lot of people are just plain lucky. I challenge anyone of you to practice your man overboard drill in 20 knots of wind with your wife as the sole person aboard after you jump overboard with no lifejacket. Better still, hit yourself against the rail or the steering pedestal enough to bruise before you go in the water.

Last, but not least, is the issue of rescue services, which all of us pay for with our taxes. Try to guess how much money is spent on recovery of a body that has fallen overboard from a small boat in the early or late part of the season... more often than not, no lifejacket.
This isn't about restricting your rights... This is about legislatively embedding good practices on the water.

[yzer]

The notion that laws mandating life jacket use lead to law enforcement abuse is just a little laughable. This position assumes that the primary purpose of law enforcement agencies like USCG and sheriff's water patrols is to raise revenue or to restrict (for kicks, I guess) the freedom of ordinary law-abiding citizens. If abuse like this exists on the water then it is likely that similar problems exist with all law enforcement agencies in a locality. If so, the problem is not with the laws but the people working in enforcement. Or, the problem exists in the "victim mentality" mindset of those citizens who always seem to meet up with law enforcement officers on a frequent basis.

USCG already has the power to board or inspect any boat on the water, so it is not likely that additional laws would bolster USCG potential for abuse. Most sheriff's water patrols have similar powers to stop boats.

The problem with enforcing mandatory life jacket use will come with the complexity of detail (boat size, design and use) required for practical law and not the potential for abuse. I believe the complexity of these details make a fair and enforceable life jacket use law very problematic.

About 90% of boat drowning victims were not wearing life jackets.

The vast majority of boat drowning deaths involve open boats under 26' in length.

Here are the latest boating accident statistics from USCG. This includes standardized reports from local law enforcement as well as USCG reports.

http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...stics_2008.pdf

Incidentally, standing or sitting on gunwales, transoms or bows (including the "open fly" factor) is a very minor contributor to boating deaths. Use of alcohol is a huge factor.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

The debate about this issue reminds me of Motorcycle helmets.

I wore a helmets all the years I rode, so you can guess which side I'm on with PFD's.

Have fun, Y'awl.

Moby Nick

[Breakaway]

Incidentally, standing or sitting on gunwales, transoms or bows (including the "open fly" factor) is a very minor contributor to boating deaths. Use of alcohol is a huge factor.

Actually, that report ranks alcohol number 8(PAGE 7) as a contributing factor, behind:

-reckless operation
-no proper lookout
- inexperience
-passenger behavior
-machinery failure
-excessive speed.

[Ian McColgin]

A lot has to do with reasonable - Wearing a helmet on a motorcycle is rational. Wearing a seatbelt in a car is rational. Both as laws actually reduce fatalities. However, wearing a seatbelt on a bike is stupid and wearing a helmet in a car is silly.

Same with wearing the PFD. I don't want to see it mandated for wear even in open boats. Do you really want that in a dink for a short row in? Must you wear a PFD paddling in Central Park? And absolutely, why wear a PFD on a nice day in the cockpit of most medium to large sailboats?

I believe it should be the skipper's and crew's judgement. Yes some what less lives are lost perhaps due to no PFD than to drinking aboard boats. But nationally it's not, in my opinion, enough to justify law enforcement as a way of self-protection. The carnage is on the road, not the water.

[Breakaway]

The carnage is on the road because there are 250 million cars zipping around. There are only 12 million registered boats--lets say, pulling a number out of a hat, we add 8 million more rowboats, canoes, kayaks and other un-registered craft. Its still less than 10 percent of the cars. Less participants equals less carnage.
PFD's save lives, I've no doubt. But I still don't think wearing them should be legislated and share your pain regarding having to don one in the dink or the cockpit of an able and sizable boat.

Kevin

[yzer]

This is a minor consideration, but a consideration nonetheless. I boat in temperatures of 95 to 105 during the summer and without air-conditioning. Hot clothing like most life jackets can contribute to passing out at the helm, falling overboard or dying from heat stroke.

[zertgold]

I vote for captains choice. If the weather is gorgeous and on deck there are ladies in bikinis working on their tans, then no life-jackets. If there is going to be a new law limiting the number of girls tanning on my deck, I am going to be upset.

If you are for such laws, how often do you wear one? Seems to me that only landlubbers and hypocrites would opt for such a law.

[yzer]

Actually, that report ranks alcohol number 8(PAGE 7) as a contributing factor, behind:

-reckless operation
-no proper lookout
- inexperience
-passenger behavior
-machinery failure
-excessive speed.

The page 7 information pertains to accidents (bigger number). Page 19 pertains to deaths (smaller number) of which alcohol is the NO. 1 contributing factor. Essentially, alcohol use is the primary contributing factor to reckless operation, no proper lookout, passenger behavior and excessive speed. Page 20 shows that alcohol is the fifth largest contributing factor for injuries but those contributor numbers are more closely grouped than the death factors, probably because injuries are more likely to walk away from accident reports than stiffs.