Is this wood rotten?

[floatingkiwi]

American barrels and french oak barrels differ in that french is split and American is sawn. Leaves less open pores when split, right? But then it must be bent, right?
This is french oak wine barrel wood with a light toast. LT is stamped on the end somewhere and it affects the taste. It chars the inside surface, but enough of that.

It doesn't look rotten, or feel rotten, is dry as.

But when subjected to the jolly good jump upon test,

Results in,

Now don't that look just like the breaks in your bent oak frames.Particularly that top piece.

This wood I was going to use for some things aboard the folkboat but on second thoughts, although not rotten, I don't think,isn't much good if I want to depend on it staying in one piece.

Just an interesting similarity I discovered.

[SMARTINSEN]

although not rotten

From the looks of the bottom photo, yes it is.

[ssor]

Break a piece of green white oak and judge for yourself. Never saw good oak break like that.

[peter radclyffe]

any brittle old person/barrel soaked in wine may crack up like that

[floatingkiwi]

Break a piece of green white oak and judge for yourself. Never saw good oak break like that.

Are you saying that the breaks in the frames in many wooden boats are all from rot. Isn't it where the wood has been stressed from compression when bent. I thought rotten oak was spongy and soft. not hard and brittle like these pieces or is this just the beginning stages of it?

[cookie]

Maybe the fungi and bacteria involved in the process of wine making caused a somewhat different process than the ordinary moisture based rot. The alcohol may have played a part too, killing some fungi and bacteria....

[johngsandusky]

I don't know what's wrong with that wood. I do know that the white oak frames in my Friendship had plenty of spring left in them 35 years after she was built. (I replaced some planks then)

[Lucky Luke]

any brittle old person/barrel soaked in wine may crack up like that

I think you got your answer, "more-or-less-floating-kiwi"!

[Jay Greer]

In the coopering process, the barrel staves are heat bent with a fire from within the barrel. Later, after the bands are driven, they are flame toasted from within. This brittalizes the wood to the point that it is more or less unsuitable for use for framing a boat.
Jay

[floatingkiwi]

I think you got your answer, "more-or-less-floating-kiwi"!

Yeah, reminds me of me!


Jays description of the coopering process along with cookies suggestion is more along the lines of what I was thinking has gone on here.
However I still reckon the reason these staves bust when I jump on some of them is where the wood was damaged when bent.
On the inside of some staves, shows where the cells were crushed and puckered not unlike the damage I have seen on frames.

When frames are bent the wood is not stretched around the outside section of the bend but moreso crushed or compressed along the inside of the bend if I am not mistaken. (Which happens a lot).
I reckon bending wood, although a great thing, could perhaps be done in some more gentle manner as to reduce the trauma it suffers when forced into a shape inconsistent with that which it grew. A slower bend or a more gradual process.I have not,(yet), bent wood but I know some snap during the job. That means that the ones that didn't snap, most probably came close to it before being nestled into their spot and fastened, to await the passage of time, a few seaway exertions and perhaps a light grounding or two, trailering and the wet dry process, it is no surprise that as many crack as they do. In fact it is a surprise that more do not. Actually if you look really closely at your frames, I mean really closely, I think you might discover they have.
Are frames made from bent wood to preserve the traditional ideal of wood as the material it is made of?
What if they were all laminated over their full length to start?
Or made of some kind of fibrous carbon based product?
Or are the breakages not really that serious and nothing that a sister or repair job can fix easily.
Not according to some folks declaring the confusing ordeal of having to gut the interior of their vessel to initiate a replacement process.
Just learning the way it's all put together here guys. Don't mean to bore y'all wit ma ramblin'.

[peter radclyffe]

quote
Are frames made from bent wood to preserve the traditional ideal of wood as the material it is made of?

usually because there cheap & quick
years ago there was no good glue for laminates with gaps

[peter radclyffe]

quote
What if they were all laminated over their full length to start?

good idea, gunnel to gunnel

[peter radclyffe]

quote
Or are the breakages not really that serious and nothing that a sister or repair job can fix easily.

structurally without needing longevity , repair them if you want to
BUT
its important that the whole structural mass of a boat needs to be taken into account
some parts may be soft, they may be allright for a few years
thames barges & some old trawlers, cargo boats, continue for years as pleasure boats, not as hard working boats, because even if there half rotten, they were built so strong
however on finely built yachts, there is less room for rot, as their scantlings were refined to start with
i dont mean to tell you what you already know

[floatingkiwi]

I did consider these points actually. I mean, there are a lot of boats plying the waters of the world as we type, with cracked frames, and doing so with relative safety and necessary rigidity.
If I am ever fortunate enough to build anew, I don't think I would be bending wood to make the frames. I would laminate strips through the entirety of the vessel. That is how I fixed the folkboat I am workin' on. Full length lams throughout. A sister job, in my opinion, would invite a repeat performance of busting wood and possible loss of hull shape, perhaps between now and the time the Good Lord decides is time for me to move on to the next realm.

[floatingkiwi]

In the coopering process, the barrel staves are heat bent with a fire from within the barrel. Later, after the bands are driven, they are flame toasted from within. This brittalizes the wood to the point that it is more or less unsuitable for use for framing a boat.
Jay

Brittle best describes these staves.