Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

[bamamick]

o.k., this is good stuff. I will plan on being there next May. I need to do a repair on the Penguin and make her self-rescuing, and rig her for singlehanded sailing, but if nothing else I will drag her along and watch everyone else sail.

There should be a good turnout of Penguins and Windmills at this club.

Mickey Lake

[Carl Cramer]

o.k., this is good stuff. I will plan on being there next May. I need to do a repair on the Penguin and make her self-rescuing, and rig her for singlehanded sailing, but if nothing else I will drag her along and watch everyone else sail.

There should be a good turnout of Penguins and Windmills at this club.

Mickey Lake

This, Mickey. I love all this enthusiasm!

[Carl Cramer]

For those of you pondering the development classes part of this -- Is next May enough time for you to get your great boat done? We could change the dates if that might become a problem.

Thanks, Carl

[Steve Clark]

Carl, the rules pretty much rule out anything I might bring. or think of building for such an event.
Maybe this isn't important, but you should hear that, from this boat nut's perspective, carbon fiber is the right stuff to build masts and oars out of and that plastic film sails are often less expensive than their Dacron cousins. If you want to promote good wooden sailboats, you have to let people use the good rigging and sails that finish the job.
If you want to play cheap funky boat games, that's just fine, but if you want people to show up with nice stuff, you have to be open to more exotic stuff.
I certainly won't go out of my way to play politely with a bunch of Bolger Bricks and PD Racers held together with construction adhesive and tyvek sails.

The "is a balsa cored hull a wooden boat" argument is pretty old. And the structural integrity question rules out a ton of stitch and glue and strip built boats that have happily been called wooden boats for years. Probably best way to define a wood boat is to state that it has to be made of material which weighs at least 30 pounds a cubic foot. This eliminates all of the light core materials which you would use to build a sandwich hull and still allows a plywood hull to covered with composite of some sort.
The only thing that gets through are heavy old solid glass hulls, which are probably "spiritually" OK because they are most likely pretty traditional.
SHC

[Carl Cramer]

Carl, the rules pretty much rule out anything I might bring. or think of building for such an event.
Maybe this isn't important, but you should hear that, from this boat nut's perspective, carbon fiber is the right stuff to build masts and oars out of and that plastic film sails are often less expensive than their Dacron cousins. If you want to promote good wooden sailboats, you have to let people use the good rigging and sails that finish the job.
If you want to play cheap funky boat games, that's just fine, but if you want people to show up with nice stuff, you have to be open to more exotic stuff.
I certainly won't go out of my way to play politely with a bunch of Bolger Bricks and PD Racers held together with construction adhesive and tyvek sails.

The "is a balsa cored hull a wooden boat" argument is pretty old. And the structural integrity question rules out a ton of stitch and glue and strip built boats that have happily been called wooden boats for years. Probably best way to define a wood boat is to state that it has to be made of material which weighs at least 30 pounds a cubic foot. This eliminates all of the light core materials which you would use to build a sandwich hull and still allows a plywood hull to covered with composite of some sort.
The only thing that gets through are heavy old solid glass hulls, which are probably "spiritually" OK because they are most likely pretty traditional.
SHC

Thanks, Steve. I truly and always appreciate your perspective, and I'm "Open" to what our crowd wants. Certainly the One-designs have to adhere to class rules and as above. If the majority prefer your thoughts for the Opens, that's fine with me as well.

I was just reading about your son Oliver and the A-Cats. Fabulous, and congratulations to him.

What do you-all think?

Tahnks, Carl

[Steve Clark]

Oliver is a nephew, not a son.
Not that it matters much, I am still proud of the kid.
Possible boats in the quiver that Could participate if rules permit.
"Alice:" My 1960 Manana II International Canoe. She has been rebuilt a bunch of times and still shows up mid fleet in most regattas. She has carbon spars, Mylar sails and most bits other than the hull are composite.
"Primrose:" Kim's Quartermoon Delaware Ducker. These light weight duckers ( 80 lb hulls) are great boats, with non traditional rigs and foils they compete well with things like Sunfish and Lasers. Kim's boat has a carbon rig.
"Boris:" A wood prototype of the Vanguard Vector. Boat is stringer frame construction with light plywood skins. It wasn't built terribly lightly because the finished boats would be production glass hulls. This is a 15' double wire skiff with twin trapezes and an asymmetrical spinnaker. With the pole extended it is probably 20' long.
"QUACK:" An 18' sailing and rowing canoe like boat that I am thinking of trying to sail in the Everglades Challenge. It started out as a self designed C Class canoe but I have modified it out of class with hiking wings, a daggerboard and a bunch of other oddball ideas that make sense to me for noodling around the shoreline in a reasonably well organized and rapid way. Boat is glassed strip planks with plywood decks. The rig and all the other bits are composites of one sort or another.
All of the above would challenge your average rot nuts view of wooden boat building, but it is how I do most of my prototypes.
SHC

[Daniel Noyes]

any way to include the discussion of "development class', suicide class boats in this?

[Carl Cramer]

any way to include the discussion of "development class', suicide class boats in this?

Absolutely -- take it away, Daniel. And, certainly, the Suicide can be part of the "One-Design" portion....

Sorry about misidentifying Oliver, Steve.

[DudleyDix]

Oooh, and, while I absolutely discourage steel masts, few things could have been cheaper (free, for me) or simpler (slot the two sections together and voila!, instant mast), and it was plenty strong.

I have a comment entirely unrelated to the Wooden Boat Regatta but relevant to the above comment.

There is a "right" place for most things considered wrong in other situations. I have used steel masts on all of my steel gaff rig designs, from the first one that I drew in about 1985. They are not much heavier than aluminium masts in the sizes needed for big boats and they are slimmer than either aluminium or wood masts of equal stiffness. After 20+ years of heavy use, these mast are still structurally sound and problem-free.

[DudleyDix]

For those of you pondering the development classes part of this -- Is next May enough time for you to get your great boat done? We could change the dates if that might become a problem.

Thanks, Carl

Carl,

Thanks for all your effort with the ragatta. I plan to be there with my Paper Jet #1 and hope to drum up other owners to go as well. We hope to have the prototype of her bigger sister there as well. That must be designed and built in time.

I don't think you should change the dates to make more time. There is already more than a year available to anyone wanting to design and build from scratch. The dates that you have of 20-22 May 2011 give them a target date. If I had not had a 2-year deadline for the 1996 Cape-to-Rio Race when I started building my 38ft "Black Cat" it would have stretched out into a much longer project.

Dudley

[DGentry]

I have a comment entirely unrelated to the Wooden Boat Regatta but relevant to the above comment.

"Absolutely" might have been a little strong on my part, and, well, I meant for dinghies, as I'm hardly qualified to speak about building keel boat masts. That being said, my steel dinghy mast worked just fine - but the extra weight up high was not particularly helpful.

[DudleyDix]

"Absolutely" might have been a little strong on my part, and, well, I meant for dinghies, as I'm hardly qualified to speak about building keel boat masts. That being said, my steel dinghy mast worked just fine - but the extra weight up high was not particularly helpful.

No problem Dave. I only picked up on it because I have heard similar comments from fairly learned gentlemen who would have known better if they had ever investigated the subject before opening their mouths. There are times when the best solution is not on the well-worn and comfortable track trodden by everyone else.

[DudleyDix]

Carl,

What is the news on progress toward the Wooden Boat Regatta at Rock Hall next year?

Dudley

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, Dudley. I'm just waiting to hear from the board that we've been approved.

I'll ask them again.

Best wishes, Carl

[tkminh]

That is a nice yacht !


---
http://4yachting.com

[MW Jones]

Carl,
Can you tell us how a one off design will be able to compete in the Regatta? How does the portsmouth rating apply? In my case I have build an enlarged version of a Windmill (17'4") with a sprit rig. Do I need to have a rating before entering or is there a system that will be in place at the Regatta?

Thanks
michael

[Michael Wick]

I am working to assemble two fleets of melonseeds, one for 13 1/2 footers, one for 16 footers. Mikewick

[Carl Cramer]

Carl,
Can you tell us how a one off design will be able to compete in the Regatta? How does the portsmouth rating apply? In my case I have build an enlarged version of a Windmill (17'4") with a sprit rig. Do I need to have a rating before entering or is there a system that will be in place at the Regatta?

Thanks
michael

Thanks, Michael. We will assign you a rating based on Portsmouth Yardstick. It should work fie for a one-of (we've done this before).

I hope to have the app and NOR done and up by the end of this month.

Questions for you all: Should we limit this first event (at Rock Hall YC) to -- 125, 150 boats? I'm thinking just for the first year.

[DGentry]

125-150 boats? Pfft. I think the cutoff should be more like 200, assuming gold and silver fleets and 10-15 races. Will sponsorships and professional crews be allowed? How much prize money are we talking about?

On another, more serious, note, the so-called Australian handicap system might be more fair to the slowpokes, and certainly more fun for everyone.


Now that I'm in VA, I can make a lot of these east coast events. The box rule is out? Then I'll be bringing a Whitehall, or a Canoe Yawl, or a sailing canoe, or maybe something else that I will have just built. Looking forward to it!

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, D. Yes, I'm afraid the box rule failed to gain any traction. Maybe we can discuss in MD?

What can you tell me about the Oz handicap system? I'm happy to consider it if others think it is likely to be more fair than PY.

[DGentry]

Re the Oz handicapping system - we used to do it once in a while at Laser regattas, and it was lots of fun for all.
Basically, the races are run in pairs.
Race1 - normal start, and then each racer is given their finish time behind the winner - with a 3-5 minute cut off depending on the length of the starting sequence.
Race2 - Everyone gets to start at their time before the official start. i.e., If you came in 15 seconds behind the winner of the previous race, you get to start 15 seconds before the starting gun in the next. If you were 3 minutes behind, you get to start 3 minutes ahead in the next race. If you won the first race, you start at the gun, behind everyone else.
Race3 - clean slate for everyone, normal start, with times given as in race 1.
Race4 - like race 2
And so on.

It's fun in that, in every other race, even the slowest boats get a chance to be out front. Sailed well, a slower boat can still cross the line first. Sailed well, a faster boat can climb through the fleet and still win the second race of each pair.
It's simple in that there's no complex formulas - someone just has to call out the elapsed time for each finisher. It's up to the sailor to remember their new starting time for each second race. Everyone knows, immediately, how they did in the race.
This real world, accurate, handicapping, reflecting actual boat speed (whether by design or sailor skill!), and is renewed for every other race. The RC can still opt to score the first race of each pair "normally."
This is a great system for short, fun, races - which are the best, in any case!

Nothing really wrong with PY, but having raced in a number of PY regattas, I can say that it's not much fun - at all - being in one of the slowest boats. Long races are especially excruciating.
And, if there's a big speed differential, the slowest boats never win, even when well sailed. At least that is what I have observed from racing both slow and fast boats under the PY.

Just putting it out there. I'm hoping I'm over my ultra-competitive phase, and will be there just to have fun!

Dave Gentry

[rbgarr]

That sounds like a lot of fun. Everyone would need to carry either a gps for timing accuracy or vhf for times being called out over the air, wouldn't they?

How did the last or previous WOOD regattas start with so many boats?? There were over a hundred, weren't there?

Carl- I'm trying to find an OK dinghy to borrow either down there or on the way. I understand you are interested in building one someday. True?

[DGentry]

Ha, I though he was being facetious about the numbers! 100 boats on the line would be pretty hard to deal with. Easier if they were divided up into smaller fleets, though.

[Carl Cramer]

Thanks, All. Yes, RB, to both. I'm hoping to build an OK. I did have a lead on a used one in the US. Are you interested?

I'll have to to check the scratch sheet from the year in Newport when we had more than 100 boats. I think I recall we started in groups of 15-20, separated by PY ratings. If one class -- say, Mirrors -- had more than 10 boats, we gave them their own start.

Anyone care to chime in on PY vs. Oz?

Thanks, Carl

[bamamick]

Portsmouth is easily available here and can be used to make the racing more fair depending on the wind conditions. In any kind of handicap fleet I like Portsmouth.

I have to get those repairs done on the Penguin.

Mickey Lake

[JDRSnipe]

Carl, is it possible to scan or copy or provide a link to the 1992 WOOD Regatta results? It would be interesting to see how the various classes or designs were paired in the racing for the last event - 18 years ago.

I presume that the multihulls -and any foil types, like the Moth version - would be given separate starts, so as not to compete with monohulls. Also, maybe the OA lengths could be used to group various classes. Both nationally or internationally recognized traditional designs, and developmental designs, should be separated to provide a basis for comparing the performance of these different levels of designs. A "one-off" design is not really a one-design, it fits better into the "Open" category. It is no fun - or fair - for small dinghys to compete against boats over 20 ft. As you mentioned in prior posts, maybe this will be handled by grouping according to Portsmouth Yardstick so boats in similar speed categories will be grouped together, and making for smaller fleets that are manageable on the starting line.

The goal should be a fun series with an eye toward comparing boat performance of similarly rated designs.

I also assume the basic construction material of the hull and deck will be wood (planking and/or plywood), with fiberglass overlays if accepted by the class. A composite material - rigid foam or honeycomb core with fiberglass facings - doesn't meet the intent, in my opinion.

I think you've addressed some of these issues in prior posts, and looking forward to the NOR when available. I have heard from owners of four or five classic wooden Snipes who have shown interest in being on hand for the competition.

[Carl Cramer]

Dear Snipe.

Thanks for yours. I WISH I could find the 1992 results... I'll keep looking... I do remember 100 boats and 30+ knots of wind. Lots of crash-boats activities...

Correct, composites aren't permitted.

I've decided to skip the NOR and just go for the registration form. With any luck, Ill have that up this week.

[Tom Lathrop]

Carl,

Is it possible that the 193 regatta in Newport is meant instead of 1992? I was there for that one and know that the overall winner was Graham Byrnes in a Spindrift 10. Only about 60 boats ventured out because of the windy conditions.

[Carl Cramer]

It could indeed have been 1993, Tom. And thanks for reminding me that it was Graham.

And of those 60, I bet we rescued 15 of them....

Hoping for better wind in 2011.

[bamamick]

I am probably going to be buying a Fish class sloop in the next few weeks, and was wondering if the yacht club in Maryland can lift 1500 pounds? Honestly that would be the perfect boat for me to bring, and I know that the guys in the class would love to have us represented.

Mickey Lake

[Mhawley]

I am probably going to be buying a Fish class sloop in the next few weeks, and was wondering if the yacht club in Maryland can lift 1500 pounds? Honestly that would be the perfect boat for me to bring, and I know that the guys in the class would love to have us represented.

There are several marinas all around rock hall, and I think that most of them can lift well over 1500 lbs. Most can probably pull over 30,000 lbs.

[tprice]

If there is a problem with access to a hoist, here's a thought. At Gibson Island, just across the Bay, we have 2 excellent hoists (2 ton?). I think we could launch boats there the day before the regatta and if there was interest, give a start for those boats going over from Baltimore Light to say, just off Queenstown Harbor.
We plan on having at least one and hopefully both Sandbaggers "Bull" and "Bear" there for the regatta. Hopefully, we'll have our two wood 210 class sloops there also. (winner of the Annapolis Wooden Boat Regatta last summer).
Tom Price

[Dale Genther]

As an update: the RHYC is currently putting together a committee to plan, promote, and manage the regatta. It will probably be handled somewhat on the lines of the 2009 Junior Olympics that were hald there with well over 100 boats racing. There are two electric lifts, each with a capacity of 1/2 ton, plus a large beach for launching. There are two marinas with a mile of the club, each with the ability to launch boats of over 30 tons. The cluhouse has a restaurant, a lounge and a bar. There is also a pool and a pavillion on the grounds. Also plenty of space for parking and camping.

The town of Rock Hall is a couple of miles away. It has a couple of motels, several B&Bs, shops, a bunch of restaurants and many marinas for anybody arriving via larger boat who many want to attend the event.

BTW it appears we will be bringing our wood Comet, uness we get "voluntered" to be a committe boat in one of our wood power boats.

[bamamick]

Dale, when will details of all that be available? How much do marinas charge to launch boats like mine (1500 pounds)? I know that those around here charge $250 just to launch, and if that's the case, it's a little too pricey for me. Gibson Island I would like to see no matter what. I'd like to check out the 210 fleet there, but I know very little about the geography of the northern Chesapeake so I don't know far we are talking about.

Lots of logistical issues.

Mickey Lake

[Thad Van Gilder]

Bamamick,
its an easy sail right across the bay,,, Just a couple of miles and you can see both sides of the bay at all times... usually.

-Thad