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Thread: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

  1. #1
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    Default Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Dear All,

    I've just returned from driving to and fro Florida, and had some thoughts on the WOOD Regatta. Now that the economy SEEMS to be improving, I'd like to start planning for spring on 2011. But of course I defer to you.

    And I'd like it to take place in the Chesapeake. One kind reader has suggested Rock Hill, with which I am unfamiliar. I am making inquiries. And I did love St. Michaels, when we produced the WoodenBoat Show there. What do you think?

    And I'd like to introduce a new set of boats, under a sort of box rule. For 2011, I'll call this the "evens" -- max LOAs (including deployed pole, boomkin, etc.) of 12', 14', 16', 18'.. and maybe 20'?

    Plus, separately, the standard WOOD Regatta classes.

    I prefer very few design rules. Maybe only the following?:

    1. For each max LOA class, max beam -- including wings or racks -- of 40% LOA.
    2. And a percentage of max LOA for a measurement from the masthead to bottom of lowered centerboard/daggerboard/leaboard, such percentage yet to be determined.
    3. No limits on weight or crew.
    4. Wood construction only. Some small % of exotics (Kevlar, carbon) to be determined.
    5. No limit on available sail area. Nylon fabric only.

    My questions: Please have at the above, but PLEASE let's not make it too complex.

    The bigger question: Will you designers/builders have enough time to design, build, modify, and fine-tune your "evens" for a spring 2001 event? (The "odds" will be included in the next WOOD Regatta after 2011.)

    Thanks in advance for yor comments and suggestions. Carl

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    #5... Nylon fabric only??
    "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

    -Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Interesting!

    I suspect you'll have to define things a bit more. What are the "standard Wood Regatta classes"? And what will your new classes be for? In other words, if someone builds a boat outside the Wood Regatta class (whatever that is), I assume it needs to meet your new class requirements in order to participate?

    2. Why is this needed? I understand why you want #1 to keep it mono-hull, but not sure on #2.

    4. Define "wood". Is doorskin with thick fiberglass on both sides "wood"? You may need to list approved thickness/weight of various materials, as many modern boats are composites with wood, epoxy, fillers, and glass/other fabrics on the hull. Otherwise something with a total thickness of 1/2" balsa core and 1/4" of glass and gelcoat qualifies as "wood"....

    5. I think you mean "dacron", right? And you may not be able to avoid the polytarp material, as it is getting very common on home-built boats.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Sorry, dacron indeed. And yes to polytarp as well.

    The original WOOD Regatta was - and is -- intended as a format for Portsmouth Yardstick ratings of older one-design classes -- Lightnings, Nutshells, etc. -- to race as one big class.

    Wood means if you remove the non-wood components, the structure remains intact and viable.

    Thanks for you comments so far.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Would nylon be allowed for spinnakers?

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Cramer View Post
    Wood means if you remove the non-wood components, the structure remains intact and viable.
    Pull all the screws and glues from any boat and it won't remain intact for long...(grin) I take it you mean remove epoxy, fiberglass/other cloth, paint and gelcoat from the outside (and inside?) of the wood hull??

    So in other words, my fir over oak dory skiff qualifies as a wood boat because you can remove the paint and it will still float. But my Cosine Wherry won't, as the glass holds the cedar strips in place from both sides.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    I second Rock Hall!

    right across the bay from a point midway between annapolis and baltimore.

    -Thad
    There is a joy in madness, that only mad men know. -Nieztsche

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Another vote for Rock Hall! Winds are fluky in summertime but late spring should be perfect.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Pull all the screws and glues from any boat and it won't remain intact for long...(grin) I take it you mean remove epoxy, fiberglass/other cloth, paint and gelcoat from the outside (and inside?) of the wood hull??

    So in other words, my fir over oak dory skiff qualifies as a wood boat because you can remove the paint and it will still float. But my Cosine Wherry won't, as the glass holds the cedar strips in place from both sides.
    Good point on the fasteners, Thorne. Right on the Cosine Wherry.

    'glass is OK as long as it's only for abrasion-resistance.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by sailboy3 View Post
    Would nylon be allowed for spinnakers?
    Sure, I'm fine with that. Any dissenters?

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    I'm designing in my head, already. But, clearly, Boulder Reservoir, Colorado - is, hands down, the best (and certainly the most central, which seems only fair) venue!



    Does LOA include rudders and bowsprits/spinnaker poles?
    Could we incorporate hydrofoils (like the new Moths?)

    Only half tongue-in-cheek . . . .
    Dave Gentry

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by thorne View Post
    interesting!

    I suspect you'll have to define things a bit more. What are the "standard wood regatta classes"? And what will your new classes be for? In other words, if someone builds a boat outside the wood regatta class (whatever that is), i assume it needs to meet your new class requirements in order to participate?

    2. Why is this needed? I understand why you want #1 to keep it mono-hull, but not sure on #2.

    I agree with this -- if we start a separate multihull class, w/o beam limitations.

    4. Define "wood". Is doorskin with thick fiberglass on both sides "wood"? You may need to list approved thickness/weight of various materials, as many modern boats are composites with wood, epoxy, fillers, and glass/other fabrics on the hull. Otherwise something with a total thickness of 1/2" balsa core and 1/4" of glass and gelcoat qualifies as "wood"....

    5. I think you mean "dacron", right? And you may not be able to avoid the polytarp material, as it is getting very common on home-built boats.
    see my answer to #2, above. Thanks.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    I'm designing in my head, already. But, clearly, Boulder Reservoir, Colorado - is, hands down, the best (and certainly the most central, which seems only fair) venue!



    Does LOA include rudders and bowsprits/spinnaker poles?
    Could we incorporate hydrofoils (like the new Moths?)

    Only half tongue-in-cheek . . . .
    Dave Gentry
    Maybe for the next one (WOOD Regatta, Dave). Boulder Res. seems lovely. Yes, LOA is inclusive of poles (extended), spinnaker pole, bowsprits and the like.

    In time maybe hydrofoils. I guess my hope here are some design breakthroughs that could lead to simple designs such as a new generation Laser, and much less freak boats. But that's just me.

    I'll be torn between racing my 210 in the WOOD Regatta or designing and racing in one of the even box events.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    I'm designing in my head, already. But, clearly, Boulder Reservoir, Colorado - is, hands down, the best (and certainly the most central, which seems only fair) venue!



    Does LOA include rudders and bowsprits/spinnaker poles?
    Could we incorporate hydrofoils (like the new Moths?)

    Only half tongue-in-cheek . . . .
    Dave Gentry
    I second the location.
    Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business.
    TOM ROBBINS, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues



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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    We're all set for Rock Hall, MD -- late May (likely 20-22), 2011.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    More info:

    * Aluminum spars are permitted (of course), as well as wood. But no other materials.

    Here are max dimensions for your consideration. I've added a 10' max LOA at the moment.

    Max LOA 10' 12' 14' 16' 18' 20'

    Max Beam 4' 5' 6' 6'6” 7'6” 8'6”

    Max top of mast to
    bottom of cb, db,
    keel 17'6” 21' 24' 27'6” 31' 34'

    I'm undecided so far about trapeze(s). Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Carl Cramer; 03-23-2010 at 06:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    I'm undecided so far about trapeze(s). Any thoughts?
    Fast is fun. Traps are fun. Yes, please.

    LOA includes rudders? If so, that's adding a lot of complexity to hang rudders under the hulls . . . perhaps discouraging some potential builders.

    What if your gaff/upper spar/gunter/whatever, sticks up higher than the mast. I'm just thinking about traditional/inexpensive rigs, like lateens or many lug rigs, etc. Take Romilly, for example:


    I'm all for the box rule idea, but I want to be able to experiment, too!

    Dave Gentry

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Carl,

    Rock Hall is nice but shore and launching facilities may be a problem. St Michaels would require cooperation of the Museum for facilities and launching is limited. The Rock Hall Yacht Club is across the peninsula and the sailing area would be the Chester River which is plenty big. The club is very friendly and has lots of open space. Perhaps they would be receptive to hosting.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Thanks, Tom. Yes, Rock Hall Yacht Club it is. They just need to confirm dates for May 20-22 2011. It seems a perfect place for our needs.

    Which of your boats will you be bringing?

    My best wishes to you, Carl

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    Fast is fun. Traps are fun. Yes, please.

    LOA includes rudders? If so, that's adding a lot of complexity to hang rudders under the hulls . . . perhaps discouraging some potential builders.

    What if your gaff/upper spar/gunter/whatever, sticks up higher than the mast. I'm just thinking about traditional/inexpensive rigs, like lateens or many lug rigs, etc. Take Romilly, for example:


    I'm all for the box rule idea, but I want to be able to experiment, too!

    Dave Gentry
    Thank you, Dave. yes, I was thinking about rudders last night. OK to exclude from LOA IF they are not of "abnormal size." How about that?

    I'm fine with gaff/uppers/gunter extending beyond masthead without penalty. I'd LOVE to see a ROMILLY here....

    It feels like progress. Thanks, all, for all your good suggestions and questions, Carl

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Cramer View Post
    Thanks, Tom. Yes, Rock Hall Yacht Club it is. They just need to confirm dates for May 20-22 2011. It seems a perfect place for our needs.

    Which of your boats will you be bringing?

    My best wishes to you, Carl
    Hi Carl,

    My experience in attending several National regattas held at the RHYC has been very positive. Great venue, facilities and great people to work with. There is a lot of shore parking and launching area but launching for large and heavy boats is limited. I would bring either Lapwing or a Windmill or perhaps something else.

    All the best, Tom Lathrop
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Hi Carl,

    My experience in attending several National regattas held at the RHYC has been very positive. Great venue, facilities and great people to work with. There is a lot of shore parking and launching area but launching for large and heavy boats is limited. I would bring either Lapwing or a Windmill or perhaps something else.

    All the best, Tom Lathrop
    Thanks so much, Tom. I gather there are some very good Windmill sailors in that yacht club. You'll be in your element!

    My very best wishes to you, Carl

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    A brilliant choice, Carl. Count me in with a Wayfarer and I will try to get a few other Wayfarer buddies to join us. Rock Hall Yacht Club has two electric hoists for heavier boats (e.g. Lightning, etc.) and an ample sandy beach for smaller boats.

    Frank
    Wayfarer 8705

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Thanks, Frank. I know about the hoists -- Would they be able to handle something like a 210 (3,000 lbs) or is there somewhere nearby where we could launch and rig boats of that size?


    Here are my updated rules. Please, all, comment and hack away:

    Revised, 3/26. Version 4.2

    The WOOD (Wooden Open & One-Design) Regatta consists of two major components:

    1.One-design, which are historical classes such as Blue Jays, Windmills, Lightnings, etc. They all race under Portsmouth Yardstick ratings, and overall prizes are given. If a class has 10 or more entries, it will be given its own start. Other starts will be determined by Portsmouth Yardstick number. Owners must declare if their boats have been altered from one-design requirements.

    If a wooden boat is NOT a one-design, it is still possible to participate in the one-design component. A provisional Portsmouth Yardstick rating will be issued.

    Max LOA is 30 feet.

    2.The “Open” portion is for skippers who wish to race under a development or box rule. Class one-designs may elect to join one of these group as well. These are ALL sailboats. In general, this category is for new designs and builds, but by no means exclusively.

    Max LOA 10' 12' 14' 16' 18' 20'

    Max BEAM 4' 5' 6' 6'6” 7'6” 8'6”

    Masthead-bottom of
    centerboard/keel 17'6” 21' 24' 27'6” 31' 34'

    Max # of crew 1 1 2 3 3 3

    RULES

    1.All hulls and decks must be wooden.

    2.Spars may be wood or aluminum.

    3.Sails must be dacron or polywrap; spinnakers may be nylon. No other materials permitted.

    4.Max LOA measures from the aftermost point of the transom to the foremost point of the bow, including spinnaker pole, extended. Rudders will not be measured unless they are abnormally large (judges' discretion).

    5.Max Beam includes wings or racks (racks may be wood, aluminum, or stainless steel). Trapezes are permitted and are not measured as such. If a boat is a multihull, no Max Beam shall be enforced. But multis will race in a separate class, if applicable.

    6.Masthead-bottom of centerboard/daggerboard/leeboard/keel is measured from the top of the mast to the lowest point on an extended foil. For this first year at least, hydrofoils are not permitted. Gaff rigs may have spars that extend above the masthead, without penalty, unless judged “too extreme.” This is judges' discretion. This may change in the future. The length of the gaff should not exceed 50% of LOA, and may not be flown parallel to the mast.

    7. Max # of crew is for guidance only. Fewer crew may be used (for boats 14' and longer). There are no crew weight restrictions.

    8. Movable ballast -- except crew -- is not permitted.

    The spirit of this event is fun, safety, and simplicity.
    Last edited by Carl Cramer; 03-26-2010 at 09:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Hey Carl,

    Would a strip built boat with carbon/kevlar inner covering with glass on the outside qualify?

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by Raka025 View Post
    Hey Carl,

    Would a strip built boat with carbon/kevlar inner covering with glass on the outside qualify?
    Thanks, Rob. If you remove the carbon/kevlar and 'glass, would the hull still have structural integrity? I'm guessing not.....

    Time to design and build a new one, I guess.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Cramer View Post
    Thanks, Rob. If you remove the carbon/kevlar and 'glass, would the hull still have structural integrity? I'm guessing not.....

    Time to design and build a new one, I guess.
    So, I guess the carbon mast, boom, spin pole, rudder and daggerboard would have to be discarded and the sails... Never mind, have fun in your project. The Swift Solo is out of the running.

    Would putting sails on the Nutshell Pram qualify?

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by Raka025 View Post
    So, I guess the carbon mast, boom, spin pole, rudder and daggerboard would have to be discarded and the sails... Never mind, have fun in your project. The Swift Solo is out of the running.

    Would putting sails on the Nutshell Pram qualify?
    Yes, of course to the Nutshell. In fact, we held the first World Nutshell Championships in Newport, RI many, many years ago. It was an absolute blast with a great number of boats. I'm hoping many will come to MD.... Shellbacks too, and you name it....

    You can race the Swift Solo with an asterisk, or build spars, foils, etc. in wood, with dacron sails.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    I see a problem developing. If we think of the WOOD regatta as a special opportunity to see how different boats perform, maybe it would be wise to err on the side of inclusiveness. Suppose a Paper Jet, with little or no carbon content and hence lower cost and easier construction, will do almost everything a high carbon content Swift Solo does, then that world be informative to a potential builder/buyer and might influence whether a new class is successfully established. My guess is that in a small boat ( say, 12 - 14 ft.), structural and design cleverness can overcome most advantages of carbon content, and it would be nice to show that in the real world.

    Frank

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Quote Originally Posted by frank pedersen View Post
    I see a problem developing. If we think of the WOOD regatta as a special opportunity to see how different boats perform, maybe it would be wise to err on the side of inclusiveness. Suppose a Paper Jet, with little or no carbon content and hence lower cost and easier construction, will do almost everything a high carbon content Swift Solo does, then that world be informative to a potential builder/buyer and might influence whether a new class is successfully established. My guess is that in a small boat ( say, 12 - 14 ft.), structural and design cleverness can overcome most advantages of carbon content, and it would be nice to show that in the real world.

    Frank
    Thanks, Frank. I don't disagree at all. Where do we draw the line?

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    food for thought

    would Chas Cohill qualify for the 20' class? I think it might... these are gona be big expensive boats,

    I see these classes applying mainly to existing boats that might show up...

    could some simple formula taking into account sail area and waterline lenght be a better gauge of performance than length overall?

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    The length of the gaff should not exceed 50% of LOA, and may not be flown parallel to the mast.
    Some clarification to your edit, please! Do you consider the top spar (the yard) of a lateen or lug rig to be a gaff? How about a spritsail sprit? These all accomplish the same thing as a gaff (ergo my question) . . . and they are all commonly longer than 50% LOA (on a small boat). How about gunter rigs? Their "gaffs" are flown parallel to the mast.
    One type of lateen rig - note the rather long spars:


    And, are crew limits necessary for 10' and 12' boats? 2 people in them is more likely to be a hindrance than a benefit, unless the wind is absolutely honking.
    I'm just saying that some folks might want to bring their kids/wife/pal along . . . .

    More nitpicking: Expensive stainless steel allowed for hiking racks, but galvanized (et al.) steel isn't. Galvanized fence posts are pretty common - and a thrifty builder might have that as his only option.
    For that matter, I once, in desperation, used a mast made of two sections of thin walled steel fencing posts. Heavier than aluminum, obviously, but it worked!
    My point here is that perhaps it's OK for people to penalize themselves with lesser materials (or excessive crew weight) if that will encourage them to enter a boat.

    Dave Gentry

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    I think the simplest (best ?) solution for sail height spars, mast etc is a measurement from head of sail to centerboard, regardless of weather the sail head is at a mast or some other form of spar.
    I think sail area combined with a max spar height is probably good method, controlling the height and complexity of rigs and factoring in sail area in setting classes.

    The rules should discourage poor quality construction... galvanized hiking racks and steel masts fall in this catagorey of "to be avoided" especially when a wood subistutes are cheaper lighter simpler and stronger.

    for those unfamiliar with Chas Cohill mentioned in previous post see Kunhart "Small Yachts" plate VIII
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 03-26-2010 at 10:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    I agree with you, Daniel, about "head of the sail" height being the simplest practical limitation. Great idea.
    And about encouraging wooden construction.

    I, personally, am not keen on sail area limitations, at all. Put on as much as the crew desires, and that the crew and boat can handle (within the rig height restriction). My take is that this is a self-limiting factor - too much just won't work - so why stifle innovation with somebody else's notion of what it "should be?" 74 sq ft of sail, on a 7'9" pram dinghy, is not what conventional thinking dictated, but Phil Bolger proved that conventional thinking was dead wrong (see his Fieldmouse dinghy). Now, lots of PDR's fly even more!

    And, for me, these are prototype boat designs - if they work they can later be refined. Personally, I want to see my ideas come to fruition, and I'll build as well as I can, but I also don't want to sink a huge amount of time and money into an experimental project that might easily turn out to be a dud (or that I'll race only one time!).

    In that vein: Though certainly not the best choice, there's nothing about galvanized steel that makes it inherently poor quality for a hiking rack - or whatever - though certainly galvanized hiking racks could be built poorly. So too could aluminum or stainless steel ones, and they'd cost a lot more.
    Like you say, quality construction should be encouraged. In any medium is my addendum.

    Daniel - your mini-sandbagger looks like a good candidate for one of the box rules!
    I'd like to see a Chas Cohill, too . . . .

    Dave Gentry

    Oooh, and, while I absolutely discourage steel masts, few things could have been cheaper (free, for me) or simpler (slot the two sections together and voila!, instant mast), and it was plenty strong.

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    Default Re: Something New, & the WOOD Regatta

    Excellent comments, all. Thanks so much.

    OK, so I'll redo for max sail height rather than mast height. Localized carbon OK, but not solid. No spars of strictly carbon, for example.

    I expect most of the new-builds will be wood-epoxy and some stitch-and-glue. I'll make that more emphatic.

    Yes, there will be prototyping, but this is how we all learn.

    So, here's a revised version. Crew minimums, etc. have been eliminated or modified:

    WOOD Regatta 2011 Rules 3/28/10 – Version 5.0

    The WOOD (Wooden Open & One-Design) Regatta consists of two major components:

    1.One-design, which are historical classes such as Blue Jays, Windmills, Lightnings, etc. They all race under Portsmouth Yardstick ratings, and overall prizes are given. If a class has 10 or more entries, it will be given its own start. Other starts will be determined by Portsmouth Yardstick number. Owners must declare if their boats have been altered from one-design requirements.

    If a wooden boat is NOT a one-design, it is still possible to participate in the one-design component. A provisional Portsmouth Yardstick rating will be issued.

    Max LOA is 30 feet.

    2.The “Open” portion is for skippers who wish to race under a development or box rule. Class one-designs may elect to join one of these group as well. These are ALL sailboats. In general, this category is for new designs and builds, but by no means exclusively.

    Max LOA 10' 12' 14' 16' 18' 20'

    Max BEAM 4' 5' 6' 6'6” 7'6” 8'6”

    Top of highest-sail to
    bottom of centerboard/
    keel 17' 21' 24' 27'6” 31' 34'6"


    RULES

    1.All hulls and decks must be wooden. OF COURSE this includes wood-epoxy and stitch-and-glue. Localized use of carbon-fiber OK.

    2.Spars may be wood or aluminum.

    3.Sails must be dacron or polywrap; spinnakers may be nylon. No other materials permitted.

    4.Max LOA measures from the aftermost point of the transom to the foremost point of the bow, including spinnaker pole, extended. Rudders will not be measured unless they are abnormally large (judges' discretion).

    5.Max Beam includes wings or racks (racks may be wood, aluminum, or stainless steel). Trapezes are permitted and are not measured as such. If a boat is a multihull, no Max Beam shall be enforced. But multis will race in a separate class, if applicable.

    6.Top of highest sail to bottom of centerboard/daggerboard/leeboard/keel is measured from the top of the tallest sail to the lowest point on an extended foil. For this first year at least, hydrofoils are not permitted. Gaff rigs may have spars that extend above the masthead, without penalty, unless judged “too extreme.” This is judges' discretion. This may change in the future. In no instance may be the gaff be longer than 100% of the boat's LOA.

    7.Moveable ballast – except crew – is not permitted. Well, if there is enough call for this, we can have a separate division....

    The spirit of this competition is fun, safety, and simplicity.

    The event is tentatively scheduled for May 20-22, 2011 at the Rock Hall Yacht Club, MD – pending the club's board meeting in April.
    Last edited by Carl Cramer; 03-29-2010 at 11:57 AM.

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