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Thread: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

  1. #841
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by johnno View Post
    Greg, magic stuff, doesn't she look great! And that horrible job is way behind you which is always a good feeling.

    Re the transom, though you have a swag of suggestions already, I wonder if you could not just turn the white paint on the topsides around to a new line you scribe (a symmetrical line) leaving a symmetrical clear finished transom. The slight unevenness in the white paint as it turns the corner would probably not be noticeable in the sunlight, particularly if it was a nice rounded finish from the planks onto the transom.
    That would have to work, I think.
    Rick

  2. #842
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by johnno View Post
    Greg, magic stuff, doesn't she look great! And that horrible job is way behind you which is always a good feeling.

    Re the transom, though you have a swag of suggestions already, I wonder if you could not just turn the white paint on the topsides around to a new line you scribe (a symmetrical line) leaving a symmetrical clear finished transom. The slight unevenness in the white paint as it turns the corner would probably not be noticeable in the sunlight, particularly if it was a nice rounded finish from the planks onto the transom.
    That's pretty much what I was thinking John. If I try it and it doesn't work I've not lost anything, I can just as easily paint over the varnish.
    Larks

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  3. #843
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Jay, creosote is no longer availaible in Australia, I've searched quite extensively for it to use on my fences but it is now illegal to sell it here.

    So failing that, I'm just wondering if you have a particular preferred alternative primer for under the water line yourself..??
    Larks

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  4. #844
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    I've been looking for creosote for a while too, but it is now banned in Canada for residential use. Where do you get it Jay? Would buy some in the states if I know where to found some
    http://www.peacefuljourney.ca/
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  5. #845
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks
    Jay, creosote is no longer availaible in Australia, I've searched quite extensively for it to use on my fences but it is now illegal to sell it here.
    Wow. And there's me complaining that the children don't wash their hands when they have been painting their ponies stables with it.

    p

  6. #846
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by euro View Post
    Wow. And there's me complaining that the children don't wash their hands when they have been painting their ponies stables with it.

    p
    I wish I could buy it for my fences, but I'd be on them pretty harshly to be careful with it and wash down straight away Peter, it's considered just too dangerous to use now. I shudder to think how much my dad and I must have injested when I was building my first (mud brick) house in Alice Springs. I used creosoted railway sleepers (railway ties) for all of my door and window lintels and we spent a few days grinding all of the creosoted timber back to mostly raw timber before varnishing it with what dust masks we could find at the time, and they were pretty basic. I can't help but think that it did my dad a lot more damage than anything that it might have done to me.

    http://www.ehow.com/list_6301158_creosote-dangers.html

    I use old sump oil and a bit of oxide on the fences now, not really what I want to put on the hull of my H28.
    Larks

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  7. #847
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    I grew up on creosote and Akta-vite .... and I'm okay ... cough, cough. I bought creosote quite recently, I thought. When did it get banned?
    Rick

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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I grew up on creosote and Akta-vite .... and I'm okay ... cough, cough. I bought creosote quite recently, I thought. When did it get banned?
    Rick
    I tried to buy it three years ago and rang every lead that I could find without success, all saying the same thing. There is a "Diggers" alternative that is essentially called something just like "creosote alternative" and it is crap.
    Larks

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  9. #849
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Creosote is a dark brown liquid with distinctive sharp odour. Creosote is a distillate of coal tar
    produced by the high temperature carbonisation of bituminous coal. Its main application is in the
    treatment of wood and wood products. Creosote impregnates the wood to protect it from rot and
    worms etc. Other minor uses are as an insecticide and as a fungicide. Care should be exercised
    when using creosote as it contains phenol.

    still available here, perhaps try an industrial supplier?
    Don't worry Paul, it's use is pretty well known here, I used it by the 44gal' drum for many years when I was in Alice Springs.

    I should quantify that it is banned for sale to the general public and is not available through any of the industrial suppliers that would once have supplied it. The only positive lead that I found was that some large industrial companies are (or were when I enquired) still able to aquire it for specific uses, I think with a specific permit. My contacts were pretty much as industrial as you can get.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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  10. #850
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Greg, I'm going to try and make some Stockholm Tar in the traditional manner when the weather is somewhat cooler. The other preservative/anti-terrado pre-priming treatment you could try is a copper napthalate "paint" solution made from one of the rural buying service stores around here. Some of the old cockies around the traps may have a stash or two of coal-tar creosote in a back shed somewhere: I'll make some enquiries over the next few weeks.
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  11. #851
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    Greg, I'm going to try and make some Stockholm Tar in the traditional manner when the weather is somewhat cooler. The other preservative/anti-terrado pre-priming treatment you could try is a copper napthalate "paint" solution made from one of the rural buying service stores around here. Some of the old cockies around the traps may have a stash or two of coal-tar creosote in a back shed somewhere: I'll make some enquiries over the next few weeks.
    Don't bother Duncan, my fence has long been completed and I don't plan on using it over the huon pine.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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  12. #852
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    hi greg

    love the pic of the shed at night with 'your girl' in there. very pretty......................the shed that is!

  13. #853
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
    hi greg

    love the pic of the shed at night with 'your girl' in there. very pretty......................the shed that is!
    I agree with Bernadette, although I went looking for Kate in the photos before I realised which girlfriend Bernadette meant.

    I think the comment about a non symmetrical arse gave it away.

    Looks very impressive Greg.

  14. #854
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Greg, the Jotun primer that I used was Penguard. The reason for using it was it's supposed suitability for use over remnant paint, timer affected by diesel, etc. As mentioned, it seems to have done the job really well. I'd still advise calling their head office though and checking their recommendations.
    Rick

  15. #855
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Thanks Bern' and Rufus.

    Rick I called Jotun this arvo but am waiting for a call back, they don't seem to know what's on their own website.


    As for the non symmetrical arse, I couldn't work out how anyone could build a boat and not go to the trouble of cutting a symetrical transom to plank up to. But it seems more a case that somewhere along the line someone has sanded back the curve of the planking a little over zealously on the port side, rounding it off:

    This is the starboard side where you can see the planking follow the shape of the transom at the slightly sharper curve just below the transom plank join:



    I don't know why I can't get the photo above to rotate but you should get the general idea. (edited to add: I see that it seems to have rotated itself over night....curiouser and curiouser....)

    And the port side that shows the lack of that curve and the thinner planks where the curve should be. It seems to have been sanded back over an area of about 8" in diameter, so going forward along the port side it does seem to return to it's correct curve :



    So to get the shape back in the transom I think I'll simply fill and fair the sanded area to build it back up to match the starboard side. I'll then paint it with the white boarder as mentioned earlier
    Last edited by Larks; 01-10-2012 at 04:54 PM.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
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  16. #856
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    I reckon so Paul, it won't need much, I already have some Jotun fairing compound that will do the job
    Larks

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  17. #857
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    you must be careful sanding any hull constructed with a softwood such as huon pine. dont ever give the job to anyone else, should they become a little heavy handed, it can result in too much timber loss in one particular area. if the mistake is to be made it has to be yours!!!
    sometimes with planks running past a transom, it can be difficult to get the return or shape you are trying to achieve if the end of the transom has not been bevelled correctly. depending on the thickness of the transom, the builder may have got his angle correct on the forward edge, but was careless with the aft edge.
    and then of course, he may not have taken the time to simply look over the shape of both sides. ive seen this before....
    a few years back i was showing a schooner to dad at a nearby marina. as we walked down the adjacent finger, we came into view of said yacht. dad turned to me and said the transom isnt level. indeed it wasnt. i had actually bought him down to view the bow of the same yacht as i had noticed it to have some 'hard spots' in her shape and lines. the result of careless building and not taking the time to look over the work for fairness.
    Last edited by Bernadette; 01-10-2012 at 05:39 AM.

  18. #858
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    I'd use epoxy resin with microballoons as filler as it's specifically designed for fairing, and serves that purpose pretty well. But I've never used Swedish putty.
    Rick

  19. #859
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    to repair you could ease of your planking in way of the hollow and fit with a packer piece.
    this would be better in terms of the following: if you intend to make a feature of the planking ends, as in paint them a different colour to the transom.
    but as you say, it probably wont take too much to fill the offending area.

  20. #860
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    If the fastenings into the transom can be removed fairly easily, and they should, then would it be worth rebuilding that part of the transom? It's not such a big job and then you'd have it as it should be.
    Rick

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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Meanwhile, I've got my finger out, finished procrastinating and made a start on splining the failed glue lines under the water line.

    I used a particularly scientific method to find any splits that I hadn't already found: after dark on Sunday night I turned off all the lights in the shed, parked the most powerful floodlight that I have (500w) inside the hull and moved it around to make sure that I covered every part of the hull while climbing in and out to crawl under every inch of the hull looking for the slightest crack of light shining through. I chalked every crack that showed up and found three small ones that I hadn't seen before.

    The chalk marks show the extent of what I need to deal with, not too bad really (taken on the camera phone the next day so pretty poor pics'):

    Port side:



    Starboard:



    The worst is the one down the aft port side, about 4mm wide at its worst point now:



    The others are really just hairline cracks where the glue has failed, this one is typical:




    I'llleave the 4mm gap repair until last as that will differ slightly to what I am doing for the rest of them, which is to cut right through the seams where the cracks are with a 3mm blade , cleaning out any old resourcinol glue in the process, and then glue in a very slightly tapered spline.

    Before starting on the hull I made a couple of mock up hairline splits to try the repair on, by simply gluing the ends of a couple of strips of wood and leaving the middle unglued:



    Setting the hand saw to the same depth of the plank thickness I then cut along the line of the crack freehand:

    Last edited by Larks; 01-10-2012 at 04:57 PM.
    Larks

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  22. #862
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    I cut a nice square edged spline on the band saw to match the width of the sawn gap, 3mm:



    shaped the ends to allow for the curve of the blade, though leaving them straight rarther than curved for simplicity sake:









    The spline is intentionally left wider than the planking is deep:

    Larks

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  23. #863
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Although I couldn't get a decent photo to show it, I then sanded down one edge of the spline to create very slightly taper to it so that it would wedge into place as it was pushed and tapped into place without forcing all of the glue out the other side.

    I did try to cut a tapered spline on the band saw but I really wanted such a gentle taper that it ended up being easier to create it by sanding than by cutting it.

    So with all cut and checked for fitment, I smeared a liberal coating of Fixtech glue either side of the spline:



    ran a line along the gap for good measure:



    then fitted the spline:



    lightly tapping it home as it bottomed out on the curves created by the saw blade at the ends:



    and underneath, or what would be inside the hull showing some of the glue forced through:



    leaving this when the glue was cleaned up and the unit left to dry for a while:

    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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  24. #864
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    So the million dollar question: just how well does the glue manage to stay on the full depth of the spline using this method of cutting a gap and slotting in a slightly wedged spline?

    Easy to check, not so easy to photograph.

    The proud edge of the spline is simply planed down to meet the planking:



    and sanded back to a smooth finish:



    I cut two cross sections:



    one where the curve of the saw blade and the straight edged end of the spline joined up to see how well the gap between the straight edge and curve was filled:



    the other where the spline filled the full depth of the gap:




    I'm quite happy with the results shown by both cuts, there is a solid glue line throughout the full depth of the spline and the glue has nicely filled the gap in the curve at the ends and hardened to form a good filler.
    Larks

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  25. #865
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    So, happy with that repair method, on with the hull..........starting with a couple of the moderate sized hairline splits, no point in stuffing around any more.

    Setting the saw to precisely 27mm depth, the thickness of the planking, it was a simple matter of very carefully cutting a straight line along the line of the crack, cutting through the copper nails that run down through each plank about 10" apart:



    it was easy enough to get a straight enough cut, knowing that the spline is flexible enough to cover some slight deviations with the important aspect being to clean out all old resourcinol glue:



    here it is from inside the hull, (the green masking tape shows other splits that I covered while sanding the antifoul off to try and keep the rubbish out of the hull):



    Here's another one further along, I've cut at least 6" past any of the visible splits in the glue line to allow for the taper of the blade and any unseen split:



    For the splines, three lovely strips of huon pine:



    again cut square but carefully sanded back on one side using my belt sander to create a gentle taper:

    Last edited by Larks; 01-10-2012 at 06:56 AM.
    Larks

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  26. #866
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    I had my hands a bit full while gluing up but here a couple of pics of two out of the three splines that I finished this arvo:



    After tapping them home the splines didn't need any more clamping than a couple nails bent over each end to hold them to the curve of the hull:



    and a shot from inside:

    Larks

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  27. #867
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Looking great I'd definately crack a coldie on that result.

  28. #868
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Blimey Greg. Are you repairing a boat or compiling a pictorial tutorial on the subject. Thats a lot of work you have done to describe what you are doing there mate.
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by floatingkiwi View Post
    Blimey Greg. Are you repairing a boat or compiling a pictorial tutorial on the subject. Thats a lot of work you have done to describe what you are doing there mate.
    Very much a case of both Kerry.

    When I went looking for information on repairing glued strip plank hulls I couldn't find anything anywhere. Discussions on the forum were fruitful but conflicting, as were discussions with boat builders and Phil Youngs photo of his spline repair job on Balia was probably the most helpful in confirming my plans to go down this repair path.

    So yes, this is also very much intended to help anyone who may be looking for information and experiences with such a repair.
    Larks

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  30. #870
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Nice to have wood, but I would have ran a hacksaw blade along the crack and injected epoxy. A lot easier, btw are you going to glass it?
    No, not glassing it Paul.
    Larks

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  31. #871
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Wow, that progress certainly came with a spurt! Looks like a very well researched and carefully undertaken repair. Well done mate.

  32. #872
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by johnno View Post
    Wow, that progress certainly came with a spurt! Looks like a very well researched and carefully undertaken repair. Well done mate.
    Thanks Johnno, I'm hoping to get the splining finished by tomorrow evening, but I've also got about 7 cubic metres of dirt to move by shovel and wheelbarrow. I'm using this heat wave (if you can call it that) as an excuse to not be doing that during the middle of the day, ie from about now until 4.00pm, so in the shed in front of a fan splining is a good way of keeping busy during my down time.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  33. #873
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    You can call it that ! It's been a cool Summer up until now .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  34. #874
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    splining is the correct method of repair here.

  35. #875
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    Default Re: H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Very much a case of both Kerry.

    When I went looking for information on repairing glued strip plank hulls I couldn't find anything anywhere. Discussions on the forum were fruitful but conflicting, as were discussions with boat builders and Phil Youngs photo of his spline repair job on Balia was probably the most helpful in confirming my plans to go down this repair path.

    So yes, this is also very much intended to help anyone who may be looking for information and experiences with such a repair.
    Good on ya mate. I am well aware of the time and care necessary to arrange photos that are taken whilst in the thick of things. It is no simple matter. That hull is lookin pretty different from when I last saw it . Nice.
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

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