H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

[Lucky Luke]

I don't think it derails Larks thread, unless it becomes a lengthy discussion, but just to precise things (to others): if efforts on a boat - and they are diverse and sometimes enormous - can effectively have destructive effects (yes: can "sort of" spit by the middle: look at the so many re-fastening along the rabbet), they usually and happily only cause a movement in the boat, permitted by it's flexibility. Perfect rigidity is impossible, and any movement in a material causes fatigue. A proper construction will ensure that there is no exaggerated movement at any particular point, and the "pyramid-like" shape of a boat's bow will need strong connection at the apex to ensure this, and not only along the edges. Well connecting Port and Starboard beam clamps, together with the stem is a rule. The king plank is there to transfer the longitudinal pressure of the fore-stay right to the mast, as well as to increase the bows rigidity.

On Larks boat, with quite some bow overhang, a jib whose tack is right on the bow piece, and designed by a Naval Architect who was very minimal on his scantling, I would pay attention at keeping such essential connections as the forward breasthook in good condition.

[Larks]

Thanks Luke, you may be able to pick up in the pics on the previous page that there is also a stainless steel brace bolted between the beam shelves and also bolted forward to the stem.

[Larks]

Here's a better shot of the timber that was such a generous birthday gift from Peter:

From left to right (please help me out if I'm wrong Peter) - two large slabs of camphor laurel; two lovely flooded gum (E. Grandis) elbows; eight slabs (four standing against the shed and four in front of them) of Cudgerie (? flindersia schottiana) ; a tall slab of imnot sureianis; then on the right is a small block (painted white) of ironbark; with a block of nicely coloured red stringybark behind it; then a small log of white mahogany from Duncan (which is as hard as nails); and finally right down in front what looks like an old fence post is an old fence post. Actually that old fence post is a piece of Crows ash (flindersia australis) or Australian teak for the caulking mallets.



Once again Peter, thank you for your incredibly generous gift, it has changed the whole concept of how I might fit out the hull, adding an entirely new dimension to what I can do with it.

[Larks]

Meanwhile, having had a good week and a bit off to play with the boat, I'm a little disappointed that I haven't achieved quite as much as I had hoped to. At the very least I had hoped, as well as what I had shown above, to get the deck framing all completely painted with primer and the internal chain plates removed and their frames re-roved with copper roves to replace the bolts that hold them in now.

But just to provide a bit of an update on what I did achieve before I head back to work tomorrow:

Do you ever look at something and think "should I or shouldn't I?" with the only way of knowing if you should or shouldn't is to try it and see how it looks with no way of going back if it doesn't look like you want it to???

Well, that was the case here with an idea that had been carrying in my mind of arrising all of my frame edges with a router bit to clean up the sharp edges and some small chips and dents that I didn't like the look of:



unfortunately, the angle of access was very awkward in quite a few areas and there were quite a few bolts and frames in the way of a clear run so getting a nice clean and even edge all the way along was always going to be a challenge, hence my hesitancy to try it in the first place.

However, throwing caution to the chilly breeze blowing up the valley and using all possible care, I gave it a shot in a small area under the cockpit to start with where it will be mostly unseen.

Not completely convinced but also not dissuaded by what I saw.....I admit that I fearlessly pressed on through the main cabin area, creating a lovely pile of huon pine shavings:



and this edging:



I can't say that I'm entirely happy with the result - but that is mostly because of the lack of consistency in my own finish rather than the concept itself. However with a bit of paint along the starboard side frames it is not entirely unpleasing:

[Larks]

Although it did take pretty much a full day to scrub the beams, beam shelves and all those hidden areas with sugar soap, bleach and scourers and then sand the whole shebang (see previous pics for an idea of the crud build up), I am amazed at how long it took to paint the framing in this small area thoroughly.

For the last 47 years the top of the beam shelves, the ends of the ribs and the areas behind the beam shelves had been left mostly unpainted (or at best splashed with drips from the end of a brush that had been poked up there at some stage very half heartedly), so I spent quite a bit of time working paint into every nook and cranny that I could possibly work paint into.

Anyway, this shot gives an idea of how much I managed to get done, although I'm amazed at how long it took, also surprising is how quickly time passes when you get into something quite fiddly like this:

[m2c1Iw]

So you've made an appointment for tomorrow at the Chiropractor then.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Looks terrific Greg!

You've lost me on that one Duncan????

The sheer of The Mighty Pippin!

Backing pieces, dutchmans and all...

[Larks]

So you've made an appointment for tomorrow at the Chiropractor then.

Very intuitive ......... how'd you guess...????...........

[Larks]

Looks terrific Greg!



The sheer of The Mighty Pippin!

Backing pieces, dutchmans and all...

Of course, how could I forget?

[johnno]

Great stuff Greg, from here it looks like the holiday was very productive!

[m2c1Iw]

Very intuitive ......... how'd you guess...????...........

Yep been there........the end result looks very cool BTW.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Fantastic amount of work you've gotten done Greg considering having to work in such frigid conditions.Any snow on the ground yet?

I really like your effort with the router, it sets the otherwise predictable plane shapes a step above and will most certainly help prolong the life of whatever finish you put on them. Sharp edges never hold finishes very well or for very long.Speaking of prolonging the life of things, all that painting of every square inch of exposed wood like behind the beam shelf etc... is right on and you'll never have an easier nor better time for it than now.

I can only imagine after this latest truck-load of progress, a few doses of medicine were destroyed. I know I would have killed at least case of the stuff!

Continued good progress!


Cheers!


Peter

[Larks]

Fantastic amount of work you've gotten done Greg considering having to work in such frigid conditions.Any snow on the ground yet?

I really like your effort with the router, it sets the otherwise predictable plane shapes a step above and will most certainly help prolong the life of whatever finish you put on them. Sharp edges never hold finishes very well or for very long.Speaking of prolonging the life of things, all that painting of every square inch of exposed wood like behind the beam shelf etc... is right on and you'll never have an easier nor better time for it than now.

I can only imagine after this latest truck-load of progress, a few doses of medicine were destroyed. I know I would have killed at least case of the stuff!

Continued good progress!


Cheers!


Peter

Thanks Peter - you mean some of this???

[P.L.Lenihan]

Yup!!!!! That's the medicine alrighty! Good to see you shop sailing too! Are you hove to or just riding on a mooring?



Cheers!


Peter

[Larks]

I didn't take any more pic's of painting but I have finished getting two good coats of primer on the deck beams. Meanwhile I thought this cheap little brush idea for getting into nooks and crannies might be of interest to some - (instead of pinching the missus pastry brushes), possibly not for all but if it gives someone an idea that will help it may have been worth posting here.

I'd usually make four out of one cheap 2" brush but I only needed one more to finish off and thought it might be of interest so did this quick one from one brush, not quite as economical but it will give the idea:

take one coil of wire:



double it and put the loose ends in a vice:




Use a brace to create a good twist:





Double it again and do the same again for a nice stiff(ish) handle:

[Larks]

To end up with this little handle:



tie it tightly on to whatever bristles you might have available. This is how I've done it, either using fuse wire, cable ties or in this case a bit of plastic covered wire...basically whatever you have available and whatever works for you:







Then dip it in a bit of epoxy resin to hold it all together (which is why I haven't been too fussed about what I use to tie it together):

[Larks]

To end up with this:



a very handy little brush that can be bent around to reach any little awkward hard to get at spot:

[Larks]

That little triviality aside, today I had a bit of a play with some of that wonderful timber that Peter gave me, in particular two likely looking pieces of the Cudgerie (flindersia schottiana), which looked just perfect to replace my quarter knees - here:



I used a bit of old MDF (that had been run over by a forklift a few times) to sketch up a template, clamped it in place and had a bit of a scribble underneath:





to come up with this:



then it didn't take too much to extrapolate the transom line:



to then cut out this template. It needed a bit of minor refinement, but that's just a matter of scribbling what is needed on the MDF and transposing that onto the timber when I cut it out:

[PeterSibley]

The pink stuff is rose gum Greg .E.grandis .

[Larks]

Once I was happy with the template and the changes needed to it, it was a matter of choosing which bit of cudgerie best suited the shape, this one seemed the best of the two that I wanted to use:



So, trace in the template, including the changes that I wanted to make to it:



check the angle of the transom and the aft most deck beam in relation to the angle that I want the knee to lay. I want the knees to sit up flush under the deck that will go over them:





transpose those angles to the band saw as appropriate:



Offer up the cudgerie for sacrifice:



And then go for it!!!

Now at this stage I had my hands full changing table angles and balancing the piece of timber through the saw to get a nice cut right to the marked line, particularly while cutting the 45deg angle for the transom, so I confess that I have no "action shots".......but.....

[Larks]

......I had originally planned to check out part of the existing transom beam then fasten the knee down onto that beam and through the transom itself, because the beam sits about 3/4" below the height of the transom itself and I want that to come right up flush to deck height with no air gap in the corner. However plans changed while going through this simply because that beam was too bloody hard to trim out nicely.....So I shortened the knee so that it would fit up to that beam and then I'll fasten through the beam and transom and build up the beam with a piece of celery top pine, which I will be able to shape nicely to match the transom curve.

I also notched out the side of the knee so that it would fit around my new celery top backing piece and be fastened to both the hull side and the backing piece:



Sorry about the lack of action shots, but here's what I have ended up with so far:



Rather than glue it in straight way, I decided to give it a good dose of everdure, so this is where I left it tonight:

[PeterSibley]

It looks as though I gave it to the right bloke !

[Larks]

It looks as though I gave it to the right bloke !

Absolutely!!! Thanks indeed Peter. It's a wonderful grain isn't it, too nice to be hiding back there where it will disappear under the deck (until it's rediscovered by the next bloke to refit it - who will no doubt be pleasantly surprised instead of sadly disappointed with the knees as I was).

I wondered while slopping on the everdure (so too late for this piece) whether I should try to bleach the black discoloration out of the timber - do you think that would work???

[PeterSibley]

I think it's blue stain and a lot deeper than the surface ,that section came from a dead tree branch .Red lad would be a good finish !

Yes . it's really lovely stuff.I have few nice planks of it here .It would look good as a cabin sole ,don't you think ?

[Larks]

.It would look good as a cabin sole ,don't you think ?

Yes, I think it would be a great cabin sole. Would you lay it like a teak and holly sole or more like floor planks with nothing between? Either way it'd be lovely.



That blue stain does definitely go right through, I might try a bit of offcut in some bleach or something and see what it does.

[PeterSibley]

Any contrasting wood might look good , black bean if you could find it ,probably stain it darker with japanblack stain or vinegar and steel wool .It gives a good dark brown or even black .

[Larks]

Any contrasting wood might look good , black bean if you could find it ,probably stain it darker with japanblack stain or vinegar and steel wool .It gives a good dark brown or even black .

Or that Queen Ebony, that'd be stunning.

[PeterSibley]

Which is the Queen Ebony ? I don't know it .

[WX]

Beautiful grain there Greg, as you it's a shame no one will see it.

[Duncan Gibbs]

That blue stain does definitely go right through, I might try a bit of offcut in some bleach or something and see what it does.

Not worth the time Greg:

"Bluestain, which is a sap stain caused by fungal organisms that are active in unseasoned woods, is of common occurrence in many species [timber which is newly felled/unseasoned]during the warmer months [or pretty much year round in our area]. Once it is well established in the wood cells it virtually impossible to remove by bleaching agents."

Page 143 The Bible 2004 print.

[Larks]

Not worth the time Greg:

"Bluestain, which is a sap stain caused by fungal organisms that are active in unseasoned woods, is of common occurrence in many species [timber which is newly felled/unseasoned]during the warmer months [or pretty much year round in our area]. Once it is well established in the wood cells it virtually impossible to remove by bleaching agents."

Page 143 The Bible 2004 print.

Thanks Duncan.

Which is the Queen Ebony ? I don't know it .

Queen ebony or Pacific ebony or Tubi (Xanthostemon melanoxylon- Myrtacea) is being imported by Sitco Australia from the Solomon Islands, I bought a few small bits at the Working with wood show in Bris' to use as some inlays. I thought I might try and get a bit for mallets as well.
http://www.sitcoaustralia.com.au/pdf/queen_ebony.pdf

[PeterSibley]

I'm kind of reticent to buy tropical hardwood Greg ,although the amount needed would be very small .

[Larks]

I'm kind of reticent to buy tropical hardwood Greg ,although the amount needed would be very small .

It's supposedly an eco-timber product, whatever that means.

[PeterSibley]

I think it means it's being cut sustainably ,which might actually be possible if there isn't much demand .With something like kwila ,it's just a way of saying the foresters know how fast it will be destroyed as viable species .

[RFNK]

To end up with this:



a very handy little brush that can be bent around to reach any little awkward hard to get at spot:

This'll never work. The bristles are back to front so they'll take paint off rather than put it on.
Rick

[Larks]

This'll never work. The bristles are back to front so they'll take paint off rather than put it on.
Rick

Doh!!

[Candyfloss]

If you put a battery on the ends of the wires you could reverse the polarity so the paint would go the right way.

[floatingkiwi]

I reckon this here....

....looks crash hot mate. A little time with the router can do some amazing things to the look of some structures, once they are built.
And if you had thought about doing this before they were put together it never would have worked , as the distances where each routering has stopped and the next starts, which looks pretty sharp, ( as in good),is exactly equidistant from its nearby hindrance which prevented cutting closer to it. Or if the routered edge disappeared in behind a piece that crosses perpendicular to it, not only would it look like crap, but would be a good place for a spider to live or the usual problems that arise from the presence of such cavities.
There is not very much, if anything at all, on a wooden boat, that once it is finished and just LOOKS right, is done wrong in any way.

I see you have not knocked the edge of the carlin . Is that because it will indeed be covered later on, by the cabinside running down , and secured to, the inside of them?

[floatingkiwi]

This'll never work. The bristles are back to front so they'll take paint off rather than put it on.
Rick

You know, you could have a point here. I mean, I bet the really expensive Boar Bristle brushes, like I hear so often being praised, would not work as well if the bristles were the other way.
Or is it just my imagination that leads me to believe they are installed the same way as they grow from the animal? I wonder.

[floatingkiwi]

If you put a battery on the ends of the wires you could reverse the polarity so the paint would go the right way.

Come on man. This is ridiculous. Everyone knows it would not work unless the bristles themselves were steel aswell.


Greg, I devised,( as far as I know), a method with which to have paint reach all places seen or otherwise, by slathering aplenty, a thinned slotion on whatever it is I am using, immediately followed by a good boot up the backside with compressed air,( which, as we all know,is not really compressed, but fast moving air from a compressed place),to force it up and into all those nooks and crannies.
Wear eye protection and THINK first.

[PeterSibley]

Interesting , probably dangerous , but interesting !

[Larks]

I see you have not knocked the edge of the carlin . Is that because it will indeed be covered later on, by the cabinside running down , and secured to, the inside of them?

Thanks Kerry, I really appreciate the comments mate.

You're right about putting a cover piece on the carlin, both to cover all of the holes and knocks in the carlin and to give me a grab rail all around by taking it about an inch above the carlin and slightly over it. I also want to set the cabin sides back about an inch from that and possibly hide a couple of very slim LED's behind it as well, (pinching the idea from Charlie Cobra's thread on Lady J: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-up&highlight= )

The sketch is a bit rough and after drawing it I realised that I'd be better to set the LED into the grab rail so that it shines back at the cabin side and doesn't interrupt the line of the grab rail. (mind you I reserve the right to change my mind half a dozen times before I build it.....)

[floatingkiwi]

Although Charlie responded to your comment....
"
Originally Posted by Larks
I quite like that idea of the up lights, including having the cabin sides set slightly back to create that shelf.........you've got me thinking for the H28 ...??

They're pretty cool. Nice soft light bounced off the white overhead. "




.....he may not have caught the bit about you saying his cabinsides were deliberately set back to expose a place for lights.
I think this is a pretty important joint here and I don't think there is anything as strong as the cabinside being screwed to the inside of the carlin.Perhaps the shelf was added later for the lights?
I dunno, there are other construction methods where the sides sit on top of the deck, but I liked the strength offered by the other.
You might wanna check on this mate, unless of course, you already know this and have it covered, in which case I shall crawl back to the other side of the forum where I belong.

Mate, I went out to the workshop and got Buds book out to check on the section of joining cainsides to deck.
Although Buds writing I find a little hard to follow and wonder if he is actually describing a boat build, or trying to establish recognition as an amateur novelist about flowery things dashing beneath sights unseen, the illustrations,( I am always for the artists man), by Samuel Manning are second to none and without them this book would not be within my care. They are precise and easy to figure out and I reckon do more than salvage this book from a bound collection of same sized bits of paper with ink on them.
ANyway, here are some ways to do it and you will notice , if the side lands on top of the deck, it had better be secured to it with extra construction, as like a girder , or an I beam, the strength in this part of the vessel is gained by the cabinside locking the up and down of the deck together and the deck, locking the in and out of ther cabinside, together forming the rigidity necessary to overcome the lack of suoport beneath it.
I could be wrong and this could be unnecessary, but, this is how I see it. I hope it is helpful,





That face piece is not just to make it look nice but serves as a place to screw the sides to in some of these, Bud describes and uses the bottom one in the book. I used the top one in the folkboat of mine.
Cheers. Kerry

[Larks]

The way I plan to do it Kerry, is much the same as the way the original cabin side was fitted, albeit set back and bolted through the cross beams rather than the carlin, it will be plenty strong enough when finished. I had thought to do it like you have done as in fasten it to the inside of the carlin but CC's photos had me rethink that.

Here's a bit more detail on that previous drawing showing some fastenings that I hadn't bothered showing before (simply because I didn't think anyone would be in the slightest bit concerned or interested with that part of it). I can't scan to JPEG here so can't get as clear a pic so may redo it again when I get home tonight.

But man, you have me jumping a long way ahead here, it will be a while before I'll be fitting cabin sides - (and like I say, I reserve the right to change my mind half a dozen times by then)

[PeterSibley]

Scan , save as a jpg .

[Larks]

Scan , save as a jpg .

I can do that at home, but can't seem to do it on the system here. I can only scan it to an email and it arrives as a PDF, no way to change it.

[PeterSibley]

To save from a PDF I do a screenshot ...png ...crop to size ....save as a jpg .

I spend too much time doing this !

[Larks]

To save from a PDF I do a screenshot ...png ...crop to size ....save as a jpg .

I spend too much time doing this !

what do you mean by ....png...

[PeterSibley]

That's the format my screenshot comes as ...I can't easily post it as that so ''save as''a jpg .

[floatingkiwi]

OK, THis

....looks much better mate. You could step the beam into the carlin in such a way as to run the bolt through both members, just to be thorough. And to show that you just can.