H28 "Larrikin" rebuild

[PeterSibley]

I'm watching and feeling very sympathetic Greg , worm as well is a real pain !

[Larks]

Darn it Larks! I wish I could be there to see the problem in person! Really what you need to do is to figure out what caused that separation in the first place and cure the cause, not the result. The worm holes are more than likely the result of the critters getting into the opening which, is secondary damage. My first suspicion is that the set up for the mast step did not provide adequate support and so the forefoot and keel have been separated by vertical thrust forces. Not being there is the real frustrating thing for me! But, use your instincts and do your detective work. If indeed the step is the culprit, then you will need to hook out all fillers from the scarf joint, free and bolts and jack keel and forefoot back into place. I do hope that you are not in need of a new forefoot in order to provide fresh clean wood for the scarf. Even so, all is not lost. It is just another glitch one has to deal with.
Jay

Thank you Jay, it really is quite difficult to see what is going on in photos isn't it. I will certainly first go ahead with resolving the poor garboard to floor connection that we discussed above, being only made with nails and which I think to be the real culprit here. I'll either make up the brackets as you suggested or bolt the hull through to the floors and the frames to the floors, I'll also endeavor to close the gap up somewhat either with blocks from the outside or possibly with some booker rod (threaded rod) set up similar to the arrangement in post 492 above to pull it together.

I think that you are quite correct in regard to the mast step, this was the old mast step that you may remember me posting before. It had been extended aft for the mast to be moved aft and all of the weight was pretty much over the one floor:



The new one that I have made up will cover four floors coming aft another floor past the mast, as in the plans (although they show it only covering three floors).

The difficult thing at the moment is determining what has been a fault since build and what might be an odd repair along the way.

In regard to the scarf, when you mention fresh clean wood for the scarf, I take it that you mean that you think the scarf should glued both sides rather than just glued to the hull and caulked between that and the keel?

[Jay Greer]

Hi Larks, I can seen in the photo that there just is not enough support spread over the floors. I would bet that the fact the step timber ends on the floor next to the compression post is really suspect. Keel and forefoot scarfs on boats the size of the H28 and larger are almost never glued. They, mostly, depend upon mechanical connections in the form of through bolts. The scarf is normally fayed with red lead and putty such as Dolfinite. Water tight integrety is achived by a well placed stop water.
Jay

[purri]

If the garboard was payed with oakum and subsequent repairs weren't then it's time to bite the bullet and replace them and scarf in a new (part) stem timber. Just my tuppence worth.

[seo]

Have you ever talked to previous owners of the boat? It appears that someone, sometime, somewhere along the track decided to sheath her with FRP. I wonder what the situation was that made that seem like the rational response, and whether it might not in fact have been the best solution. I realize that this is not orthodox. But it would seem to me that you have to define the object of your project. If the object is to get a boat in the water and go sailing, that's one thing. If the object is to be involved in a delightfully complicated process, that's another. If the object is to create the quintessential H-28, then I think you'd be better off buying a pile of lumber and starting from scratch. Your boat is different in so many respects from a "real" H-28 (including how many Herreshoffs can dance on the head of a pin) that it would be a mistake to approach your project from a point of purist adherence to "proper form."
On the subject of sheathing, it's worth considering that 13mm of FRP is an extremely strong (and watertight) structure. It may also be worth taking into account that it's impervious to attack from marine borers. It's puzzling how some people dismiss this concern, being apparently more worried about proper form. Well, if your boat is living in an area where terredoes are on the attack, you're going to have to come up with some kind of effective sheathing to defeat them. Copper plate is one, maybe super bottom paint is another. But I'm pretty sure that ignoring the problem will not make it go away.

[Larks]

Thank you again for the advice Jay, Purri and Seo. I have been in touch with one of the former owners, who is also the grandson of the original owner, though he wasn't overly forthcoming with history of the boat and who did what repairs, possibly because some of the suspect ones may have been done in his time. The worm holes are isolated to one small area of the stem and they could have come from anywhere, a decent antifoul is generally enough around here to dissuade them.

Also, as mentioned above, the "sheathing" was one single 100mm wide strip along the garboard seam, the hull certainly hasn't been sheathed. I've been quite up front with this rebuild that my objective with it is to use it as my classroom to learn whatever I can through the process of refitting it without short cuts, and to refit it in a manner heading towards LFH's original intentions, despite the obvious differences that are in good shape and which would not be cost or time effective to modify, such as the bridge deck, centre line prop', alloy spars and strip planked build.

I'm in a position where I could probably sail on any number of boats and I could have bought a number of others that would have not required the work that this requires in order to go sailing, so I am quite clear that this is about 80% focused on the process of the restoration and 20% about having my own H28 to go sailing on.

If it turns out that the most suitable repair is to sheath the hull around the deadwood to seal up and stabilise all of this movement, going a little further afield than the 100mm that it was, I would certainly still consider it, but if I did go down that path I would make sure it is done properly and that the gaps and seams were properly splined and solid before doing so.

But for now I'm looking at how I could do it without the sheathing and without taking short cuts.

[RFNK]

Hi Greg, I see you've been chopping away again! Just a couple of thoughts. If you do decide to do any sheathing then I think you'd have to sheath the whole hull as you have such unstable timber in your keel that it would probably delaminate any sheathing as it swelled and shrank later on. It also seems to me that if you're going to laminate some new timber onto the stem then you'd really need to make sure it's the same sort of timber or the glue joints will fail as the timber swells. If you're going to fill some of your gaps with timber then anything soft and durable ought to be okay - WRC, huon. I guess I'd be inclined to use huon and glue that to the huon planking but not to the stem or other less stable timber.
Rick

[Larks]

That's pretty much what I'm thinking at this stage as well Rick, fix a huon pine spline to the hull timber and caulk between that and the hardwood keel timbers. I haven't really put much thought into the stem yet, having only found the holes yesterday, and don't really know what the timber is yet to match it. Being the only area to have worm holes I wonder if it may be different to the rest of the deadwood, which also seems to be two different timbers anyway.

[PeterSibley]

I hesitate to suggest anything at all .I'm just going to watch .


That said , that garboard seam looks like a classic case of a poor connection that leaked then was gradually pried open by successive caulking until the was a long leaking gap ..Then came the glass .

Decent floors and garboard fastenings might have been better .

[Larks]

That said , that garboard seam looks like a classic case of a poor connection that leaked then was gradually pried open by successive caulking until the was a long leaking gap ..Then came the glass .

I hadn't thought of that Peter, but it certainly looks that way, probably started by the dodgy mast step set up as Jay suggested.

Decent floors and garboard fastenings might have been better

I hope that my rectification of this and the new mast step arrangement might prevent it from happening again.

[The Bigfella]

It's certainly "interesting" eh Larks? I well remember the fun of taking a chainsaw to Grantala's transom. Funnily enough, we ended up using the chainsaw to shape some pretty large timbers that went in to support the prop struts.

[PeterSibley]

I hadn't thought of that Peter, but it certainly looks that way, probably started by the dodgy mast step set up as Jay suggested.



I hope that my rectification of this and the new mast step arrangement might prevent it from happening again.

Yes , I think Jay's mast step idea is a very good one .

[seo]

It occurs to me that the garboard/keel seam is the only one on this hull that's caulked in conventional carvel-planked fashion. It also looks as if it was done with two strands of oakum. That's a LOT of caulk. In comparison, my H-28 was done with two light strands of cotton. My Nevins-built 40' foot hull was done with one strand of cotton, and my 63' powerboat (2" yellow pine planking) was done with one strand of oakum, one of cotton. So, I think there's more caulk in there than normal.
Which could have two explanations:
1) Backbone/shell (garboard) joint separated from rig load, opened-up seam leaked, someone hammered in another strand of oakum as a stopgap.
2) Builder didn't really know what he was doing, and built the hull with a seam too wide.
I guess the way you'd know would be to look at the seam as it runs aft. If it's the same width all the way, #2 might be a good guess. If the seam is wide under the step, then gets narrower as it runs aft, then I'd guess #1.
I think that nails are a really bad idea for plank fastenings in the hull areas where the hull is heavily loaded. Such as in way of the rig, and at the backbone/shell joint. There you want a lot of shear strength, which nails don't give you because the wire size is too small. Also, nails are practically impossible to remove for inspection or renewing.
As an aside, on some larger schooners the garboard and first broad strake are quite a bit thicker than the other planking, and even if the planking above is Doug Fir, these thicker planks will be oak. Sort of confirmation that the garboard and first broad are more critical to hull structure than the planks up above.
I wonder if you got all the sheathing off, and reefed out all the caulking, whether it would be possible to pull the backbone and backbone/shell joint back together.
It might be a good idea to bore a test hole (or two) in the piece that has worm damage. If the worms have riddled it to the point that it's not sound, you want to know that beforehand.
SEO

[Jay Greer]

Seo is right on with inspecting the seam to see if it is consitant in width and the concept of over zealous caulking with oakum. I do still see the incorrect step as being the cause of it all. If a new scarf and new bolts are called for, might I suggest making up a few fin headed bolts. This will permit much better bunging of the outer holes.
Jay

[boattruck]

Larks, The comments of the gents above are right on about how to go about assessing the situation. Where she a conventional plank on frame we might pull the garboard and give the floors and mastep a going through, replacing and beefing up as needed, I 'spose this will still be your approach, minus the access, since your planking will still be 'in situ'.
I have resolved one similarly troubled boat where the timber at the scarf end of the stem forefoot joint was aged and damaged, by casting a longer heavy, bobstay fitting and bolting ( with nice large plates and washers inside...) through it and everything to fasten it all together, effectively sandwiching the ragged bits together, perhaps something similar will work for the forward end of your keel, once you have the boat all cleaned up and jacked back into shape.
The glass tape , as others have mentioned, is what you try, if you dont have the budget or will to tear into this can of worms, you won't need it once you have this resolved. While it rarely works, you can't really fault a PO for trying what he could...Wishing you well, Cheers, BT

[Larks]

Time for a BOAT BATH..............

It is amazing how satisfying some of the more basic and unexciting jobs can turn out to be when you finally get them right.

I've had a number of goes at re-soaking my deadwood - without success because I never had the correct waterproof membrane under the hull. My initial attempt with an irrigation system seemed ideal and the irrigation system itself worked well, but it needed a reasonable reservoir under the hull for the irrigation pump to draw from, which meant that it needed a reasonable weight and volume of water under there, which ultimately resulted in leaks because of the "cheap" lining I was using that just could not cope with a bit of "handling", a reasonably heavy duty builders plastic that I had available but which was all that I could really afford to use at the time.

I swapped that irrigation system to try a more close fitting membrane concept to reduce the volume of water required but again I was fighting leaks and never had any real success, very frustrating considering the effort required to build up the framework to hold the membrane close to the hull.

So, taking a step back and upping the budget on the membrane, I have come up with a more durable material and have put a bit more work into getting a ply cladding and framework to hold the memrane closer to the hull to minimize the amount of water (and weight thereof) to be able to flood all of the keel timbers completely, except for the stem and stern deadwoods. I layed strips of carpet between the membrane and the hull and the membrane and the blocks to avoid any hard/sharp points on the membrane, I also packed carpet and some foam in the small gaps where I couldn't get the ply framework completely up against the hull.

As a result I am now actually quite excited to have been able to come up with a successful bath system to soak my deadwood timbers, knowing that I can leave it for a reasonable period time unattended, other than adding a bit more water from time to time.

So she's now sitting up to the top of the keel timbers in a lovely pool of salty water.











I've measured the gaps in the deadwood over a number of areas and will leave this now for a few months now before pumping the water out and checking the gaps to compare them to see what the rate of takeup has been before I caulk them so that I know just how much caulking I'm going to need without blowing fastenings out.

[auscruisertom]

Hey Greg now if you manage to bring in some sand you"lbe the only hinterlander with a private beach. Well done in the ingenuity department Cheers Tom

[Larks]

Hey Greg now if you manage to bring in some sand you"lbe the only hinterlander with a private beach. Well done in the ingenuity department Cheers Tom

Thanks Tom, just waiting for the tide to come in now. Any more thoughts on the BenBow??

[PeterSibley]

Greg ,did you ever identify the backbone species ? I'd be keen to know !

and good luck with the bath mate .

[Larks]

Greg ,did you ever identify the backbone species ? I'd be keen to know !

and good luck with the bath mate .

I haven't Peter, I have assumed Tassie blue gum but there seems to be two, or even three, different timbers there. In that photo above with the ruler, the top piece seems to be more open and splintery, with quite a few shakes down along the centreline inside (which you might be able to see in the overhead pics), than the next bit down - the centre piece, but then the bottom piece seems to be denser again than the other two.

[PeterSibley]

Tassy Mountain Ash , e. regnans isn't a timber I like very much at all.That might be the top piece , very open grain and from the building material I've worked with down there , quite subject to movement and collapse .If that is regnans I'm surprised to see it in a boat ,I hope it isn't so !

Is there any possibility of replacement if it doesn't swell ?

[Larks]

Tassy Mountain Ash , e. regnans isn't a timber I like very much at all.That might be the top piece , very open grain and from the building material I've worked with down there , quite subject to movement and collapse .If that is regnans I'm surprised to see it in a boat ,I hope it isn't so !

Is there any possibility of replacement if it doesn't swell ?

That would be a major but I don't think that it would be necessary anyway, if it doesn't come back all the way I will fit a few splines. The idea of this exercise is to see if they might be required and if so just what sort/size of splines I'd need to fit. I'd probably do them in huon pine and I'd leave enough room for some caulking and a bit more movement in the water.

[PeterSibley]

That sounds like a much easier course Greg ....slotted in from both sides .

[Larks]

That sounds like a much easier course Greg ....slotted in from both sides .

Yes, that's what I'm thinking and maybe glue/epoxy and dowel joint them in the middle

[PeterSibley]

Perhaps a place for Sikaflex or similar ? By the way , what goop do you use at work ?

[Larks]

Perhaps a place for Sikaflex or similar ? By the way , what goop do you use at work ?

It depends on the application but it's mostly for fixing to ally' or glass, the owner prefers us to use the various Sikaflex products but I have a bit of a preference for Fixtech.

[PeterSibley]

I've used a bit of Fixtech ,it works well .Is it the same elasticity as Sika ? I'd prefer it if it is .Ply to ply or ply to wood ,all sealed in my case .I'm a newbee with these products .

[Phil Y]

I hate sika products, don't seem to stick too well, and lose flexibility. I've had good luck/experience with fixtech. Very sticky and good flexibility. When I first fixed the problems in my deck I used sika. A few months later I had leaks where the chainplates go thru the deck. Cleaned that out, re did with fixtech and was very happy to find no leaks at all on my most recent visit. Very happy. Dry boat. By the way, on perspex (a sunroof on my kids' car) I discovered that nothing seems to stick very well to perspex, but if you give it a coat of paint on the mating surface, then use the goop when the paint is dry-very very stubborn bond.
Phil

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Phil ,Fixtech is cheaper too !

[Larks]

While my keel timbers gently soak away in their bath my mind is able to turn to the pleasures of planning some fitting out and I'm plonking a few more mock ups inside to see how things might fit practically and how they might look when finished.

Meanwhile, I've also been able to escape from working at the (plastic) Sanctuary Cove Boat Show today to head up to the Working With Wood show in Brisbane (two more diametrically opposed shows I find hard to imagine) and have spent all my hard earned on a few bits of wood.

Well, rather special wood for me really, some Celery Top Pine to fit myself a sheer clamp plus a bit of huon pine, which I hadn't planned to buy but which I couldn't resist (the smell just sucks you in - a bit like the smell of fresh coffee or fresh bread, you can't walk past it without wanting some).

I also found some "Queen Ebony" - Xanthostemon melanoxylon or Pacific Blackwood, bought in from the Solomon Islands. I'm not yet sure what I want it for but it will make some great inlay and highlighting, particularly against the huon pine and maybe some beefwood and/or New Guinea rosewood or mahogany when I start the fitout fun!!

Anyway, here's my score for the day (other than the two shorter pieces of huon pine on the left which I already had):



There really was quite an abundance of huon pine available there, I was quite surprised to see so much on a couple of different stands, this log was about 2 1/2 metres to 3 metres or so I think:





The working with wood show itself was a bit of a case of not realizing there is so much stuff out there that I can't do without

Though one quibble, you'd think the one place you might find a wooden fold out ruler would be a working with wood show wouldn't you!!?? That was the one other thing that I went looking for but without any joy..sadly.

[Candyfloss]

Quote:

By the way, on perspex (a sunroof on my kids' car) I discovered that nothing seems to stick very well to perspex, but if you give it a coat of paint on the mating surface, then use the goop when the paint is dry-very very stubborn bond.
Phil

My experience also.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Though one quibble, you'd think the one place you might find a wooden fold out ruler would be a working with wood show wouldn't you!!?? That was the one other thing that I went looking for but without any joy..sadly.

Nice score on the timber Greg!

I'll have a lookout at the next Showground Markets at Mur'bah for one such ruler for you. There's usually one or two quite nice specimens there.

[auscruisertom]

Love that Kauri log and it sounds great using Queen Ebony Greg for inlay ,chances are in the old days it was prized for war clubs ect. And possibly it was also soaked in a salt water bath prior to the artist applying his finishing touches. Cheers Tom

[Larks]

Nice score on the timber Greg!

I'll have a lookout at the next Showground Markets at Mur'bah for one such ruler for you. There's usually one or two quite nice specimens there.

Thanks Duncan,I'd really appreciate that. I had two here that I was very fond of, one was dads (an old imperial one) and another a new metric one that I bought not so long ago and which I used regularly (when I had it) , but they seem to have taken legs and I miss them and have been looking out here and there for a decent one but I'm only seeing plastic ones around here.

Tom, there was so much nice timber up there it was a bit overwhelming and I had to leave or end up buying a whole lot more. And the smells!!! I sat and watched a few demos without really taking them in just to experience the range of different smells of the various timbers being worked.

[Larks]

For anyone who may be following this but perhaps not seen my H28 bath thread, I have posted some interim results on an experiment that I'm doing with my timbers in salt water to monitor how they will expand while the hull is in a bath, as well as a linseed kerosene bath sample to see what it will do in regard to timber swelling.
The results are here: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...74#post3000274 and I'll keep going with the experiment for a little longer yet.

[Larks]

I had a little time to play on the weekend so had a go at steaming some celery top pine to shape in preparation for fitting it as a sort of "sheer clamp", albeit one that will be glued in short lengths to reinforce the sheer where very thin ends of the strip planking have been knocked around a bit in the past, as well as to make me feel a bit more comfortable with the frame to hull join which doesn't quite line up with the design :

I don't know that it really impacts on the structural integrity (having lasted 45 years or so already) but here's how the deck frames should line up with ribs:



And here's how mine (don't) line up:



So the plan is to fit a series of "clamps" as shown in one of previous posts (#396)

Here's the stock, my new celery top pine sawn down to 40mm x 20mm strips:



And here's my very basic steaming setup:







It worked surprisingly well considering how quick and dodgily I set it up.

[Larks]

Until it started bucketing down with rain and I had to build up a bit of a wall around the flame to keep the heat in



This steaming may not have been entirely necessary for the short lengths that I'll be doing but I figured it would make the process and fit of each piece to the hulls curve a little more precise (and I wanted to have an excuse to try steaming something anyway). I know there will be some spring back but by clamping it to the outside of the sheer I expect to have at least a better shape than if I hadn't done it:





While waiting for the timber to cook I had a few other little projects going on in the house, one of them is to try and make an old carved Indian door look a little more well fitted between my office and library - it has been sturdily fitted but I've been scratching my head a bit trying to decide how to frame it into the wall, particularly on the back side where it is just old uncarved and unfinished timber (mahogany I think??), but with enough character to leave it exposed in some parts:

[Jay Greer]

Larks, While I don't comment much, I must say that I greatly admire your tenacity and style!
Jay

[Thad]

Beautiful doorway, front and back!!

[Larks]

Larks, While I don't comment much, I must say that I greatly admire your tenacity and style!
Jay

Thank you Jay, that is greatly appreciated.

Beautiful doorway, front and back!!

Thanks also Thad, it has been fitted like that for the last couple of years without me finishing it off because I'd not quite been able to decide how to frame it but I'll post a pic when I finish framing it up, hopefully it will look a whole lot better.

[Larks]

I've booked a weeks holidays for July so that I can spoil myself for my birthday with a week dedicated to working on the H28, with the hope that I might be able to use it to make a start on fitting out.

With that in mind the push is on for the next few weeks to use any spare minute getting my sheer clamp and other framework in order as well as a bit of interior hull painting and with work being quite slow this week I'm actually able to leave at a sensible hour. So with an hour or so spare after work this evening, here are a few pics of how I'm fitting the "celebratory" first piece of my sheer clamp - starboard aft quarter:

Shaping to fit nicely against the transom and up to the first rib, slotted into the deck beam:





Marking out the deck beam to be cut and chiseled out - the bit of epoxy that I though might be hiding something sinister turned out to be just a bit of filler that I was able to do away with when I notched out the beam:





I don't have Peter's wonderful knack of capturing work as it happens so my photo diary may be a little lacking, however I seemed to cut the slightly complex angles at the stern end just right, with the result that I managed to get the first piece nice and snugly dry fitted in place:



more to come...

[Larks]

Before taking it off again to shape the top edge fair to the deck line, I marked in a few lines with my trusty square:





then with a little bit of this:



(and I know that I must sharpen the plane)

and a little bit more of this:



I was pretty happy with the resultant nice clean flush finish:

[Larks]

I had been giving a bit of thought to the tail end of my beam shelf which just hangs in mid air past the most rear deck beam, which you might be able pick up in the photos in post #541 above. So while working in this area I was giving that a bit of consideration and decided to dock the overhang and clean it up:



and was quite surprised to find that the beam shelf is actually more huon pine. There actually seems to be quite a mix of huon pine and celery top pine throughout the hull and deck framing.

I had earlier removed a couple of pretty daggy looking grown stern knees (that I think Wizbang suggested were probably superfluous on a strip planked hull) and had planned to shape some nicer knees to replace them. Although this area may never be looked at again I'd like to fix it up so that I know if someone does one day open it up for some reason or other they won't get the same surprise that I did and so that they may feel a little more complimentary about me than I did about whoever put the daggy ones there.

What I'm thinking now though is to build a broader, possibly laminated, stern bracket arrangement (whatever it is called) more closely resembling what is shown in the plans.

Here is a view of the stern area, you may be able to see the tail end of the port side beam shelf hanging in the middle of nowhere awaiting its fate:



And a shot of the plans showing the desired arrangement:

[RFNK]

Great Greg! Isn't it nice when you've spent all that time removing suspect timber, scraping and sanding to finally begin adding new bits?
Rick

[auscruisertom]

Hey Greg Boat's looking good , but trust a boatbuilder to own a more unloved ruststained and seldomly used square. Cheers Tom

[Larks]

Great Greg! Isn't it nice when you've spent all that time removing suspect timber, scraping and sanding to finally begin adding new bits?
Rick

absolutely!!!!

Hey Greg Boat's looking good , but trust a boatbuilder to own a more unloved ruststained and seldomly used square. Cheers Tom

Don't worry Tom, this one is well used, if not well cared for, the wet summer has left a lot of things in my shed looking a bit worse for wear.

[PeterSibley]

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii11/Larks_01/DSC_0019-1.jpg[/IMG]

It's great to see stuff going back in Greg !

[WX]

Rust is a constant problem. Some mornings when I go out to the shed I'll find that everything in the shed will have a layer of condensation on it. Looking good Greg, you've done fine job of getting all the paint and crap off the inside of the hull.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Sounds like exciting days ahead as you get more solid wood back into the subdeck structure! With you frigid winter weather well on its' way, I imagine the work will proceed brightly now just to keep warm!

Cheers!



Peter

[Larks]

Sounds like exciting days ahead as you get more solid wood back into the subdeck structure! With you frigid winter weather well on its' way, I imagine the work will proceed brightly now just to keep warm!

Cheers!



Peter

Yes, it's getting harder and harder to get outside Peter, I had to put on a jumper this morning!!