Sail&Oar : 14-15 feet LOA

[essaunders]

There have been several threads dealing with the Sail&Oar options, and I've followed them (and related builds and launches) with interest. I haven't, however, found a good answer to my question.

It seems that the Penobscot 14 is a well liked design.
I think I saw that the show last year a Daisy 15

this size seems like a good match for my current needs. My family doesn't fit in my solo canoe. A "normal" canoe would be a good craft for me, but right now having a second adult to wrangle a toddler is important - thus a row boat seems like a good match. Smaller (like into the well-populated 12 foot range) seems to limit the craft to two adults (sailing) or three (rowing).

I would envision rowing more initially, then wanting to sail after the toddler grows up and wants more adventure.

So, the question are: how do the two listed designs compare? Which other obvious designs did I miss?

Erik

[Roy Morford]

Have you looked at Iain Oughtred's Tirrik?

[James McMullen]

Which other obvious designs did I miss?

Within a few inches here or there:

Oughtred's Tammie Norrie, Skua, Penny Fee, Willy Tern, Tirrik

Eric Hvalsoe's Hvalsoe 16

Walt Simmon's Duck Trap Wherry, Matinicus Peapod

White/Herreshoff Catspaw Dinghy

Hylan's Beach Pea

All of these would be other candidates for good-looking, safe and able sail & oar boats.

[johngsandusky]

Probably some good dory skiffs in that range too.

[Steve Paskey]

A couple of other nice choices:

Francois Vivier's ABER:
www.vivierboats.com/html/stock_sail_and_oar.html

John Welsford's ROGUE:
www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/rogue/index.htm

Aber can be built either strip-planked or in clinker ply, and full size patterns are available.

[essaunders]

Wow. James and others! Thanks! This is perfect! I'll review these and see if I can better define my actual functional requirements.

[James McMullen]

Always psyched to meet a new sail & oar enthusiast! Please be sure to keep us updated on which one you're leaning towards and why. Lots of decent choices. . . with plenty of room for personal preferences and style.

[stevedwyer]

In that range there are many boats that have stood the test of time!
Try checking out a copy of Howard Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft from the library. Actual drawings of his are held at the Smithsonian.
Most of the current designs offered today owe a great deal to traditional work boats.

Another source for sail and oar..
http://www.gartsideboats.com/index.php

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Most of the boats considered here are sailers that can be rowed. But a design can be more rowboat than sailer.
One is Jacques Mertens' "Otter". It's 15' 10" by only 49". It's narrow to make it a better rower. The sail is only 65 sq ft and the boat is rigged as a guenther to make all the spars short enough to be stored on the boat. The smallish sail will keep costs down, too.
Construction is 5-panel S&G which makes it a fairly quick build.
http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/OT1....htm?prod=OT16

[Steve Paskey]

One is Jacques Mertens' "Otter". It's 15' 10" by only 49". It's narrow to make it a better rower. The sail is only 65 sq ft and the boat is rigged as a guenther to make all the spars short enough to be stored on the boat. The smallish sail will keep costs down, too.
Construction is 5-panel S&G which makes it a fairly quick build.

If you like OTTER, I would urge you to consider the plans for Joe Dobler's LISSA instead. Mr. Dobler is deceased, but his plans are available from his son-in-law via Duckworks magazine. See: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/do...issa/index.htm

If you compare the two side-by-side (see drawings below), you'll see that Otter appears to be a rather obvious copy of Lissa with a few modest changes. The hull shape, size, construction method, and sail plan are quite close to being identical. (Both boats are listed as 15'6" long with a beam of 4'1", and Otter has a slightly larger sail, 65 sq. ft. versus 60.) Yes, Mertens gives you a builder's forum and access to the "designer" (if you can call Mertens that in this case), but the Lissa plans include extensive instructions and full-size patterns for the bulkheads.

If Mertens did in fact copy Lissa when he produced the plans for Otter, I would consider his sale of plans for Otter to be unethical unless he licensed the design from Joe Dobler's heirs.

Here's LISSA:



And here's OTTER:

[holzbt]

http://www.devlinboat.com/zephyr.php

[Chip-skiff]

In that vein, Gypsy, a 15 ft. light skiff designed by Philip Bolger is a chined plywood hull and thus an easier build then than the lap-hulled designs (which are definitely more traditional and classy, if you have the hours).



This one is being rebuilt: losing the deck for'ard of the mast for dog-space.



Adding a skeg might improve it as an oar-boat. It's nimble and pleasant under sail.

[essaunders]

I haven't had time to review all the suggestions, but did have some further questions.
First, a thought about rowing vs sailing. I've thought about a haven 12 1/2 and decided it was waaay too much boat to trailer. I looked a Gartside's Jessie, and figure it is a sailboat that can be rowed. While these two might be great if I just wanted to sail.
But, I'm really looking for a canoe replacement for the next several years, and would like to be able to sail later.

So now my question: what are the advantages and disadvanteges of the double-enders? Do you lose seating? Are they more or less seaworthy? Easier or harder to build? My two example have transomes: perhaps that reflects my bias?

[James McMullen]

That's not a very easy question. To simplify it down to its basics, though, double-ended trades off capacity for a given length in favor of seaworthiness and rough-water handling for a given displacement. There's a reason why surf lifeboats, whaleboats and Shetland yoles are all double-ended. . . .

But unless you really plan on pushing your limits, that ain't gonna matter for a recreational 14' rowboat. Pick the one your wife thinks is prettiest. (It helps a lot to have her "on board" with a project like this)

[James McMullen]

I'll freely admit that I personally prefer the double-ender for where and how I sail. Here's a whole thread about my favorite sail & oar boat in case you're interested.

[stevedwyer]

It sounds as though you didn't look past the landing page of Paul Gartside's design featuring Jessie.

Have a look thru his stock plans such as the 15' salmon Guide boat http://www.gartsideboats.com/catrow2.php#140
or thru Iain Oughtred's designs.

You will find some wonderful boats. Also try checking out one of John Gardner's books. Part of the process is learning about the unique characteristics of the many boat styles available. The Small Craft Workshop at Mystic Seaport is held the first week in June.

[Chipito]

Another good designer is Don Kurylko. I've had personal experience with three of his designs and they are all quite good. Check out the Cottage Skiff particularly.
http://www.dhkurylko-yachtdesign.com/
Jeff

[essaunders]

It sounds as though you didn't look past the landing page of Paul Gartside's design featuring Jessie.

I've actually looked at Gartside's sailing craft rather extensively. At this point "Jessie" is probably still too much boat -- certainly not a boat to launch for a quick row. I'll have to take another look at his sail&oar designs.

I just finished james' thread on Rowan. Some interesting observations there.

A design selection question, then. How many sail&oar owners bought/built after a test sail/row. And how many just liked the design and "went for it" with no test ride?

[stevedwyer]

A design selection question, then. How many sail&oar owners bought/built after a test sail/row. And how many just liked the design and "went for it" with no test ride?

Who knows?
I built a modified South Jersey Beach Skiff, filling in the blanks, from Howard Chapelle's drawings, using a magnifying glass for the initial offsets.

There may be many more options if you plan to build rather than buy.
And again, if you can, attend the Small Craft Workshop at Mystic Seaport where you can try out some boats, both owner built by participants and from the boat livery at the museum.

[Daniel Noyes]

In that range there are many boats that have stood the test of time!
Try checking out a copy of Howard Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft from the library. Actual drawings of his are held at the Smithsonian.
Most of the current designs offered today owe a great deal to traditional work boats.

Another source for sail and oar..
http://www.gartsideboats.com/index.php

so true

The best boat I know in this size range is the 13.5' Chamberlain dory skiff from John Gardners "The Dory Book" available at your local library! The Chamberlain is a historic design that is an excelent sail and oar boat.

at this size a double ender really isnt going to have an effect on seaworthyness, in fact the extra bouyancy a transom provides can be important to seaworthyness when the boat is loaded.

[bloggs68]

What about Phoenix III or First Mate by Ross Lillistone? http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/

regards,

AD

[davebrown]

there was an article in i believe a late 80's WB about the dobler skiff, in which it was highly praised. haven't seen many built. looks great on paper.

[Clinton B Chase]

There is some great video of Ross''s Phoenix III on You tube. She really flies!