Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 52

Thread: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    kirbyville texas
    Posts
    692

    Default Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Searching for silicone Bronze, it's out there but expensive and shipping. Is Naval Brass the same as Tobin Bronze? Needing 5/8 rod. Many have accepted Nicol Bronze, Tobin Bronze. Tobin Bronze is an excellent rod for securing lead ballast. Anyway a good source of Naval Brass is available to me in the immediate area. Galveston Bay. I would suspect that Naval Brass to be a little softer, that would be advantages when working/threading. Does any one know? The Marine Industry Sales person say's its the same.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Egg Harbor Twp, NJ
    Posts
    1,498

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Jamestown distributors has 5/8" rod in silicon bronze
    http://www.jamestowndistributors.com...ne=1&page=GRID

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    15,104

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    I'd say not exactly the same -
    http://chestofbooks.com/reference/He...in-Bronze.html
    http://www.diversifiedmetals.net/nav...FQENDQodA0-neA
    http://www.diversifiedmetals.net/silicon-bronze.htm

    But depending on your use of the rod, it may not make much of a difference.

    Duckworks has both SB and Naval Brass -
    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/material.../rod/index.htm
    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/material.../rod/index.htm

    Wikipedia sez:

    • Naval brass, similar to admiralty brass, is 40% zinc and 1% tin.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copper_alloys
    Last edited by Thorne; 03-01-2010 at 05:19 PM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    20,766

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Actually, I think they are the same. If memory serves, L. Francis Herreshoff gave the composition in The Common Sense of Yacht Design, and it was the same as naval brass.

    It also looks like it here:

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Tobin+bronze

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    kirbyville texas
    Posts
    692

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Thanks all. That' the answer I wanted. I can get for a good price and local. It's huge international Marine constuction firm, and they sorta chuckled when I told them that all I needed was 15-20 feet. There'r used to mega deminsions and by the hundred's of feet. But here's a trueism: everybody likes to help one-off single man boat-builders.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Padanaram, MA USA
    Posts
    9,106

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    I don't think they're the same.
    Naval brass is about 40% zinc.
    Tobin bronze contains tin and maybe iron.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
    Posts
    58,579

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copper_alloys

    From Thorne's link naval brass is a high zinc alloy ,39% zinc .I would definitely NOT use it as keel bolts .

    It's pretty close to manganese bronze , a very good material were lots of strength is required but not for below the water line (except propellors ).
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    433

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    You might try here as a source for bronze, brass and maybe info
    http://www.farmerscopper.com/

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Lynn, MA
    Posts
    75

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    If Silicon Bronze is what you are after, than you need to speak with Atlas Metal Sales in Denver CO. they advertise in Woodenboat, have great prices and excellent customer care. They will ship whatever you need ups.

    Buy extra because if you are a boat guy, you will find uses for the scraps.

    Good luck,
    Andy
    A. Hall

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    12,251

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    I don't think they're the same.
    Naval brass is about 40% zinc.
    Tobin bronze contains tin and maybe iron.
    Jim's got it - small amount of iron and a small amount of lead, too. IIRC, what's referred to as "Naval Brass" actually is classed as a bronze. Naval brass is an unleaded brass.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Padanaram, MA USA
    Posts
    9,106

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    ... and after salt water gets done with the zinc, you have a copper sponge that's about the same consistency and strength as toasted white bread.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    12,251

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by JimConlin View Post
    ... and after salt water gets done with the zinc, you have a copper sponge that's about the same consistency and strength as toasted white bread.
    Which is why silicon bronze is recommended for the application, no?
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    kirbyville texas
    Posts
    692

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    OK the zinc is bad, what of Tobin Bronze. OkOK Just get silicone Bronze...

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    20,766

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_copper_alloys

    From Thorne's link naval brass is a high zinc alloy ,39% zinc .I would definitely NOT use it as keel bolts .

    It's pretty close to manganese bronze , a very good material were lots of strength is required but not for below the water line (except propellors ).
    LHF spec'd it for keel bolts. Maybe he was wrong. I'm not an expert.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    kirbyville texas
    Posts
    692

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Well here's the deal, my build is a tralier sailer. She's big so maybe in the water 1/2 of the year. Can I use these newer metals like Nichol aluminuim bronze? They are less expensive. Does any have info on this ToughMet, it is a copper nichol alloy.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    30,715

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    From the Wiki link
    Naval brass (ASTM B21) Cu 60.0, Zn 39.25, Sn 0.75 Annealed 22 56 40 90 Resistance to salt corrosion
    The tin protects the alloy from dezincification.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    San Francisco Bay
    Posts
    11,071

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    If it is BRASS, it's an alloy primarily composed of copper and zinc (usually around 40% zinc).

    If it is BRONZE, it's an alloy primarily composed of copper and tin.

    "Phosphor bronze" is bronze with some phosphorus in it. "Silicon bronze" is bronze with some silicon in it. And so on. There are hundreds of both brass and bronze commercially available alloys. Many of these have "brand names," like "Tobin bronze" (from the Tobin bronze company) or "Everdur," a trade name for silicon bronze.

    The LAST thing you ever want to use for keel bolts is BRASS. As said above, under the water, the brass will "dezinc," with the zinc turning to zinc oxide powder, leaving a very weak (microscopically "swiss cheese" looking) piece of copper. Don't go there.

    Brass really doesn't belong on any boat, except when used for polished trim and accent pieces. Brass lamps, clock and barometer cases, binnacles, door knobs, grab rails and that's about it. (Bronze bells are WAY better sounding than brass ones, but hard to come by these days.)

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    20,766

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Think I'll go with Nick on this.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    12,251

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    One of the other considerations - particularly when thinking about mounting is the physical strength. Silicon Bronze has very good tensile strength in comparison with other bronzes. Bronzes can also be a bit on the brittle side, too.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Tuscon AZ
    Posts
    4,961

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Searching for silicone Bronze, it's out there but expensive and shipping. Is Naval Brass the same as Tobin Bronze? Needing 5/8 rod. Many have accepted Nicol Bronze, Tobin Bronze. Tobin Bronze is an excellent rod for securing lead ballast. Anyway a good source of Naval Brass is available to me in the immediate area. Galveston Bay. I would suspect that Naval Brass to be a little softer, that would be advantages when working/threading. Does any one know? The Marine Industry Sales person say's its the same.
    There is no such thing as silicone bronze.
    There IS silicon bronze.
    Silicon adds hardness to the metal
    Just like it does to aluminum.
    Many times sales people have NO IDEA what they are talking about.
    They just sell things.


    Lead in any metal helps make it easier to machine.
    302 stainless has more lead in it for that very reason.
    Home Depot just does not know about that yet. To them stainless is stainless.
    If we take the lead out of all metals it will just cost more to machine.
    They took all the brass fitting off the shelves because of the lead fear.
    Now the price is double? For NOT putting in the lead?

    If your water goes past a 302 stainless fitting, how much lead
    do you think will get into your blood?

    Engine cases have about 18-20% and pistons have 22% . It also keeps expansion rates down when the pistons get hot.

    Do not get me wrong.... It is good to clean up the environment but lets get reasonable.
    There was no reason to charge MORE for the brass fittings.
    It is all the brass shell casings being used in the wars that is costing us.
    Last edited by donald branscom; 03-02-2010 at 04:32 PM. Reason: Spelling
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    kirbyville texas
    Posts
    692

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Ok be easy on me; I've already had two glasses of wine (cheap), and I flunk and had to retake In-organic chemistry twice,many years ago, understand.. so I want BRONZE, with either Zn or silicone in it. There is no way around this. Just ask for silicone Bronze and be done with it. $$$$

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    15,104

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Chuck at Duckworks is a good guy and deserves your $$. Make the purchase online before ya sober up, big guy...
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Padanaram, MA USA
    Posts
    9,106

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    ..... so I want BRONZE, with either Zn or silicone in it. ...
    You don't want either.
    Zn is the stuff that disappears by electrolysis if there's copper or lead nearby.
    Silicone is for boobs and bathtubs. [didn't dare post a pic]
    Tin makes copper a bronze and a little silicon makes it stronger.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
    Posts
    58,579

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    From the Wiki link
    The tin protects the alloy from dezincification.
    Interesting ! Is it possible to offer an explanation I would understand ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    San Francisco Bay
    Posts
    11,071

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Interesting ! Is it possible to offer an explanation I would understand ?
    Nope. He hasn't a chance. LOL

    Tin doesn't "protect the alloy from de-zincification." The tin is there instead of zinc, which is what makes the alloy bronze instead of brass.

    For some, I fear, there just isn't any hope, Peter.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    20,766

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    Nope. He hasn't a chance. LOL

    Tin doesn't "protect the alloy from de-zincification." The tin is there instead of zinc, which is what makes the alloy bronze instead of brass.

    For some, I fear, there just isn't any hope, Peter.
    For Tobin Bronze, which is the same as naval brass, both tin and zinc are in the alloy. LHF thought highly of it.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Bel Air, Md
    Posts
    3,399

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    This site provides a very good discription of most of the copper alloys.
    http://www.anchorbronze.com/

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    San Francisco Bay
    Posts
    11,071

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    For Tobin Bronze, which is the same as naval brass, both tin and zinc are in the alloy. LHF thought highly of it.
    Alloys are combinations of all sorts of metals. General categories like "brass" and "bronze" are classified by the primary components. The primary components of brass are copper and zinc. The primary components of bronze are copper and tin.

    "Tobin bronze" is a true bronze. Yes, it does have "both tin and zinc" in the alloy, but the amount of zinc is inconsequential.

    Tobin bronze is made of the following:

    Copper 82.67 percent
    Tin 12.40 percent
    Zinc 3.23 percent
    Lead 2.14 percent
    Iron 0.10 percent
    Silver 0.07 percent
    Phosphorus 0.005 percent

    The three percent zinc isn't particularly problematic in the marine environment and it is said that the other metals in combination further inhibit corrosion of the zinc in this particular alloy.

    Brasses, on the other hand, have much higher percentages of zinc. Even admiralty brass contains 30% zinc with 1% tin to inhibits dezincification to some extent. Other brasses intended for marine use can contain as much as 40% zinc. Muntz metal, also called duplex brass, is 35–45% zinc. Beta brasses, with 45–50% zinc content are used for casting.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Sierra Foothills
    Posts
    82

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    In Nigel Warrens 'MetalCorrosioninBoats' he states a brass with below 15%Zn content will 'usually' not dezincified, and can be succesfully used underwater 'If' it is inhibited with trace arsenic. But how to know it is the correct alloy from the supplier? Esp in these days of such fine china style integrity. Warren also doesn't at all in anyway recommend any brass for ballast.
    You could probably get away with fudging the alloy in a boat you build yourself, lives in colder lower salinity water only a few months a year, has oversized bolts in a high count as opposed to a 4 bolts arrangement. Grey seal has many small 1/2" bolts in 2 rows. And if you pull them and check them each season until you can affort SBz...maybe. Seems 316 ss could work as well, but isn't cheaper thab SBz, but not ideal. So then you come back to getting correct rod at not much more money and not look at it ever again. 40 years anyway.
    In the long run your better off getting the SilBz rod and be done with it. Also AlBz, NiAlBz are good choice. If you are looking for more sources-MSC Industrial had good prices when I bought my 1/2 SB. Fry Steel in Los Angeles is another good industrial source for exotic bar stock. I got Monel rod from them at very good price relative to others. HamiltonMarine was decent $'s a few years ago.
    But I'm curious your using 5/8" instead of 1/2" as the grey seal plans show. Pretty good price jump between the two sizes, so if you can get back to 1/2" the cost is better by a good bit, and 1/2" is plenty big in Ougthreds high count scheme.
    Last edited by Varna; 03-05-2010 at 06:17 PM. Reason: Corrected Acme to FrySteel

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Chelmsford, MA
    Posts
    23

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    John Cleek: Where the H did you get that formula for Tobin Bronze?? Anaconda Industries publication B-34 gives two slightly different compositions for the stuff, both having about 40% zinc , with slightly different amounts of tin, less than 1% in either case. They are referred to as Copper Alloys #C4610 and C4700. I know LFH liked the stuff; he liked "manganese" bronze as well. Manganese bronzes are really brasses with a few percent aluminum as the principal alloying element to increase the strength. It's OK for more massive castings under(salt)water such as rudder gudgeons. There are several "manganese" bronzes. One, C67500, is 58% copper, 39% zinc, and 1% tin. The casting alloys of manganese bronze can be found in American Smelting and Refining Company (ASARCO) publication GUIDE TO COPPER CASTING ALLOYS. Their other name for these alloys is less deceptive; it's HIGH STRENGTH YELLOW BRASS. They are alloys # C86500 with 39% zinc, 1% iron and 1% aluminum and NO manganese, C86200 with 26% zinc , 3% iron, 4% aluminum and 3% manganese, and C86300 with 25% zinc, 3% iron,6% aluminum, and 3% manganese. Aluminum is the principal stregthening element. The more aluminum the stonger and less ductile. I had a lot of boat fittings cast for me years ago by Norman Leach at Jefferson Bronze in Salem Mass. He was the expert foundryman recommended to me by LFH. The exact alloy he used, and preferred by LFH, was the low strength one, C86500. The other two, medium- and high-strength, are harder to cast, have more shrinkage and, being much harder, are more likely to have casting defects as well as being more subject to breakage under impact. These days a good casting alloy is the everdur/silicon-bronze C87300 with 95% copper, 4% silicon, and 1% manganese. One of its great advantages is that it can be repeatedly remelted without any alteration in its composition since none of its constituents are subject to differential oxidation or volatilization at foundry temperatures. This lets you re-use failures, cut-ofs and machining scrap, an important consideration with ingot prices being about $10 per pound. The stuff is not easy to machine; the manganese bronzes have a better machinability index.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    3,517

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    I love this forum. Guaranteed 180 deg. answers to every question.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    West coast Sweden
    Posts
    2,334

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Why no manganese in manganese bronze?
    1947 Nordic Folkboat "Nina"

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    20,766

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by LRFBOSUN View Post
    John Cleek: Where the H did you get that formula for Tobin Bronze?? Anaconda Industries publication B-34 gives two slightly different compositions for the stuff, both having about 40% zinc , with slightly different amounts of tin, less than 1% in either case. They are referred to as Copper Alloys #C4610 and C4700. I know LFH liked the stuff; he liked "manganese" bronze as well. Manganese bronzes are really brasses with a few percent aluminum as the principal alloying element to increase the strength. It's OK for more massive castings under(salt)water such as rudder gudgeons. There are several "manganese" bronzes. One, C67500, is 58% copper, 39% zinc, and 1% tin. The casting alloys of manganese bronze can be found in American Smelting and Refining Company (ASARCO) publication GUIDE TO COPPER CASTING ALLOYS. Their other name for these alloys is less deceptive; it's HIGH STRENGTH YELLOW BRASS. They are alloys # C86500 with 39% zinc, 1% iron and 1% aluminum and NO manganese, C86200 with 26% zinc , 3% iron, 4% aluminum and 3% manganese, and C86300 with 25% zinc, 3% iron,6% aluminum, and 3% manganese. Aluminum is the principal stregthening element. The more aluminum the stonger and less ductile. I had a lot of boat fittings cast for me years ago by Norman Leach at Jefferson Bronze in Salem Mass. He was the expert foundryman recommended to me by LFH. The exact alloy he used, and preferred by LFH, was the low strength one, C86500. The other two, medium- and high-strength, are harder to cast, have more shrinkage and, being much harder, are more likely to have casting defects as well as being more subject to breakage under impact. These days a good casting alloy is the everdur/silicon-bronze C87300 with 95% copper, 4% silicon, and 1% manganese. One of its great advantages is that it can be repeatedly remelted without any alteration in its composition since none of its constituents are subject to differential oxidation or volatilization at foundry temperatures. This lets you re-use failures, cut-ofs and machining scrap, an important consideration with ingot prices being about $10 per pound. The stuff is not easy to machine; the manganese bronzes have a better machinability index.
    That matches up with what LHF said about the composition of Tobin bronze. Where did the other formula come from?

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Edmonton, alberta
    Posts
    106

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Does anyone know what type of bronze Herreshoff used for their pulley's back 1912ish.
    Rufus

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Tuscon AZ
    Posts
    4,961

    Default Re: Is naval Brass= Tobin Bronze

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    That matches up with what LHF said about the composition of Tobin bronze. Where did the other formula come from?
    I really like it when people get their facts straight.

    Many metals are given names by companies that are fluff.
    They are not going to tell you the composition if it is propietary.

    Anyway it is like WHITE PAINT. They can call it POMPANO BEACH WHITE if they want to.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •