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Thread: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Hi, again, all. A few more questions for Joe and all…

    I see from the photos that at least one of the boats built used a chain stay below the sprit, but yours seems to have used a line or cable. Did you use the cheek block on the bow? What do you recommend?

    What kind of speed were you getting with that hull with your 8 hp Johnson on a bracket? I am leaning toward Parker’s preferred solution of an outboard in a well and was thinking that a long-shaft, 8 hp four-stroke with a big prop would be about right.

    Kind of a random question, but what do you and anyone else think about bilge pumps in a boat like this? Better to have three separate pumps in the bow compartment, main cabin, and stern compartment and keep them completely isolated?

    Cheers,

    Matthew

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    I do love this design and Iíve recently bought the plans from Mr. Parker. Hopefully Iíll soon start doing something with them besides admiring them.

    The plans are not very detailed but the accompanying guideline notes and Reuel Parkerís book ďThe new cold molded boatbuildingĒ make up for that, or at least I hope. I probably wonít know until I start.

    My only problem so far is the interior layout, more specifically the lack of WC. My significant other is really upset about that little detail. Any suggestion would be welcomed.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    How do you sheath a lapstrake hull? One would think it would be difficult to make the cloth fold tightly to all those plank edge corners.

    Dave

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    By the way for us in Europe looking for Xynole, the closest thing that I could find is Diolen.
    http://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.u...ain-weave.aspx

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    I think you could move the icebox to the cockpit locker and use the space for a head perhaps.
    If he ever drinks the brew of 10 tanna leaves, he will become a monster the likes of which the world has never seen



  6. #41
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Rigadog View Post
    I think you could move the icebox to the cockpit locker and use the space for a head perhaps.
    This is what I have in mind

    the cabinet space is roughly 2ft, literally a water closet

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    And some interior photos from an ad




  8. #43
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner


  9. #44
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Wooden Boat Fittings View Post
    Ian's skylight is a beautiful piece of work. It allows light and ventilation while keeping the water where it belongs. The principle of it is as in this drawing --


    Note that the flow of air can be shut off if desired with the addition of an internal flap --


    But for a watertight hatch that allows human egress/ingress I don't think you can beat Maurice Griffiths' design --


    MG guaranteed it would be waterproof unless submerged....

    I myself would always want the hinges on the forward side of the hatch. I have heard of a cracked-open hatch hinged on the after-side being forced open by a boarding sea that, because the hatch couldn't be reached to be shut for the inrushing water, allowed the vessel to be swamped -- not a fate I would want for any boat of mine.

    The hatch should be dogged from the inside, both for safety when closing and for security when the vessel is left on a mooring.

    Mike
    I would like to ask the good people in this forum, regarding the headroom of this design (4,6 ft - 140 cm).
    Could one add a rather tall butterfly hatch, say 40 - 50 cm, like the above design, which would provide a space somewhere to put on your trousers and stretch your back, what are your thoughts?

    I’m not referring to the ventilation part of the design but rather on the way the whole hatch can be opened to provide even more space.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    How do you sheath a lapstrake hull? One would think it would be difficult to make the cloth fold tightly to all those plank edge corners.

    Dave
    I suspect it works best if the outside corners are rounded and the inside corners filetted.

    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    I fiberglassed the keel/garboards on my Mackinaw boat and the rest I just coated with Smiths and interlux Protect 2000 2 part epoxy paint. No need to fiberglass all that marine plywood.
    Not all who wander are lost...

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    I started a thread a few years ago when I bought one of these in need of repair. I launched it about three weeks ago and definitely have thoughts to share with anyone considering building one.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel R. Jansen View Post
    I started a thread a few years ago when I bought one of these in need of repair. I launched it about three weeks ago and definitely have thoughts to share with anyone considering building one.
    I think your boat deserves it's own thread. Many here would like to hear your impressions so far.
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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Great!

    Photos?

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Good to know youíve revived her. I found the story in issue #225 . At that time, Iíd let subscription lapse and just last year got the issue because of the story on building Samara T that Michael Higgins wrote. The fantasy has been to petition Michael and Paul Baskett to build another of the Swansea Pilot in Lunenburg at Paulís shop overlooking the shed David Westergaard builds his schooners in. Thatís all at the shipyard complex.
    The story of sailing her into the Keyís anchorage resonates with me, I like a boat thatíll get one home. Interior sounds a bit like the Tancook Whaler, a place to sleep in a pinch, more womb than cabin. Yes to photos, thank you very much.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel R. Jansen View Post
    I started a thread a few years ago when I bought one of these in need of repair. I launched it about three weeks ago and definitely have thoughts to share with anyone considering building one.
    That's great! Really looking forward seeing your work

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by slycreek View Post
    Good to know youíve revived her. I found the story in issue #225...
    I don't know what story you are referring to.

    Here she is a week or so before launch I'm not very good about pictures. Aside from a color change, hollow masts, and a stronger rudder shoe she is pretty much the same. Minus the rot.
    Attachment 53322

    Attachment 53323

    I also deleted all of the standing rigging.
    I Haven't quite got everything done but I sailed her a bit and it seems like the sheet handling could be improved and Joe Kitchell is definitely right about a jib boom. Not only does the club beat violently even in light air, it being pulled the to center spoils the air on the foresail. I'm not an experienced sailor but I suspect it is also hurting the windward performance. The interior is original and still needs refinishing. Or rather it needs an upfit.

    IMG_20200123_142324.jpg

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Unfortunately I think I'm looking to find her a new owner. I've spent a lot of time on her and neglected many other things. I figured my enthusiasm would return once I was on the water but I need to move on. If anyone is interested or has any advice let me know.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Sorry for the bad images posting from Android phone is not working.

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Where I fully understand the beauty and appeal that a schooner rig affords, but I would not wish to have a schooner as small as the boat being spoken of here. Having stated, in the past, that thirty six feet is as small a schooner I would wish to own is because there are other rigs that are more practical, fast and easy to deal with than that of a very small schooner. There is a point where the aerodynamics of the schooner rig give way to a sloop or ketch rig for a boat that is so small as to bring it into the category of being a large model ship! However, the elements the boat is designed to operate in are the same as those that are sailed in by a larger boat and there in lays the base for the logic of various rigs.
    The small schooner has less efficiency than other rigs because of the windage the schooner rig affords. You my take these words as being those of a kill joy but in truth I have both designed and sailed and raced small as well as large schooners and am very familiar with the performance that can be expected from a small craft rigged as a schooner. One of my friends, who was also a yacht designer, once drew up a small schooner that was about twenty two feet in length. He and his daughter entered her into a classic boat race and nearly sank due to the inefficiency to the rig on such a small hull. We had to tow them into the shallows so that they could bail her out. And both of them were quite shaken by the near disaster they were involved in. The engine would not run due to being drowned out which, of course, made the electric bilge pump unusable as well. The boat is now used as an excursion boat and carries a small crowd around the bell bouy and back but always with the engine running even though the sails are set. The boat is cute but really not very efficient!

    Here I must appolgise for speaking out so boldly but I do so in the interest of safety and common sense for all those who go down to the sea in ships!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Jay. While I respect your opinion on the practicality and effeciency of small schooners or ketches, I think the bulk of your argument is poorly considered.

    First I would like to say that the idea that any sailboat is anything other than a toy is the product of self-delusion. Second I suspect you are talking about tradional rigging vs modern rigging more than sail plan. Fully battened laminated wishbone ketches are far more effecient than a 70s sloop. Certainly Bermudian rigs are cleaner than gaff rigs, are more effecient, and they place more sail area in faster moving air for the same weight but none of that has more significance to safety than a sail that can be hauled and reefed in seconds or a reduced heel due to a lower sail area. The safety of any given design is the product of many interrelated design compromises. It would be equally true to say that the cause of your friends boat's horrible performance was that It did not have the correct hull form or that the rig was too ambitious. I've studied boat design and build boats for fun and repair boats professionally, but I am a novice sailor. I rigged Sylvia from the profile drawings and have never touched a gaff rig before but the first time I sailed her, it was upwind 3.kts in 6kts variable 60 degrees off the wind. Upon reaching the bay proper I turned to a broad reach in 10kts variable and heeled and stiffened progressively. Mind blowing? No. Competent? Definitely. She's easy, simple and stable. That's what I think of when I think safe.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Where I fully understand the beauty and appeal that a schooner rig affords, but I would not wish to have a schooner as small as the boat being spoken of here. Having stated, in the past, that thirty six feet is as small a schooner I would wish to own is because there are other rigs that are more practical, fast and easy to deal with than that of a very small schooner. There is a point where the aerodynamics of the schooner rig give way to a sloop or ketch rig for a boat that is so small as to bring it into the category of being a large model ship! However, the elements the boat is designed to operate in are the same as those that are sailed in by a larger boat and there in lays the base for the logic of various rigs.
    The small schooner has less efficiency than other rigs because of the windage the schooner rig affords. You my take these words as being those of a kill joy but in truth I have both designed and sailed and raced small as well as large schooners and am very familiar with the performance that can be expected from a small craft rigged as a schooner. One of my friends, who was also a yacht designer, once drew up a small schooner that was about twenty two feet in length. He and his daughter entered her into a classic boat race and nearly sank due to the inefficiency to the rig on such a small hull. We had to tow them into the shallows so that they could bail her out. And both of them were quite shaken by the near disaster they were involved in. The engine would not run due to being drowned out which, of course, made the electric bilge pump unusable as well. The boat is now used as an excursion boat and carries a small crowd around the bell bouy and back but always with the engine running even though the sails are set. The boat is cute but really not very efficient!

    Here I must appolgise for speaking out so boldly but I do so in the interest of safety and common sense for all those who go down to the sea in ships!
    Jay
    I believe that the design of schooner discussed here is based on the Swansey Pilot schooners? These were practical no-nonsense working craft of about 35 foot on deck.


    This is a photo of schooner-rigged pleasure boats at Blackpool.
    Plate 25.jpg

    I am not sure that I would blame the rig for your friend's bad experience.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  23. #58
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Well I knew that I would be setting a lot of tail feathers on fire by making the statement above! But, I do not see the wisdom in building a tiny schooner rig to no advantage as would be of a sloop or ketch of the same size. A schooner by virtue of her rig will demand greater beam to length ratio in order to remain on her feet and take advantage of the winds that will force a narrower hulled boat to take in a reef sooner than a schooner will. A schooner by the mass of her rigging compared to a sloop or ketch of the same water line length will have greater resistance to winds that fall forward of the beam which will make for frustration in a race that occurs in light airs that are dead up wind of the weather mark or blowing adversely as the sun sets behind your dock or mooring bouy.
    I do know that many of you will boo and hiss at that revelation but, that still is the way it has always been as certain rigs require certain hull demensions and hull shapes and types. A very glaring example of this can be found if anyone wishes to make a comparison is to investigate the lines of the Schooner "Joanne" compared to those of of the ketch "Tioga". Both boats came from the design board of L.Francis Herreshoff at almost the same time and erea of wooden boat design and construction.
    Both boats sail well and both boats are still competitive even though they are nearing a hundred years of age! Both are comfortable as well but I should be remiss if anyone should want to take either of these two classic designs and reduce the scale to bring either down to, lets say, 28feet in length!

    Best reaching winds gang!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 02-26-2020 at 12:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel R. Jansen View Post
    Jay. While I respect your opinion on the practicality and effeciency of small schooners or ketches, I think the bulk of your argument is poorly considered.

    First I would like to say that the idea that any sailboat is anything other than a toy is the product of self-delusion. Second I suspect you are talking about tradional rigging vs modern rigging more than sail plan. Fully battened laminated wishbone ketches are far more effecient than a 70s sloop. Certainly Bermudian rigs are cleaner than gaff rigs, are more effecient, and they place more sail area in faster moving air for the same weight but none of that has more significance to safety than a sail that can be hauled and reefed in seconds or a reduced heel due to a lower sail area. The safety of any given design is the product of many interrelated design compromises. It would be equally true to say that the cause of your friends boat's horrible performance was that It did not have the correct hull form or that the rig was too ambitious. I've studied boat design and build boats for fun and repair boats professionally, but I am a novice sailor. I rigged Sylvia from the profile drawings and have never touched a gaff rig before but the first time I sailed her, it was upwind 3.kts in 6kts variable 60 degrees off the wind. Upon reaching the bay proper I turned to a broad reach in 10kts variable and heeled and stiffened progressively. Mind blowing? No. Competent? Definitely. She's easy, simple and stable. That's what I think of when I think safe.
    Daniel I have no argument with you concerning modern full batten rigs! It sounds as if your "Sylvia" is both a good looking as well as a fun boat to sail! As for full batten rigs, I have been involved with a few of them and both agree and enjoy the added efficiency of such a rig! My friend was a highly respected naval architect that has designed more than one boat to have circumnavigated the globe and should have known better but, we all make mistakes! I just do not consider a 28 foot schooner to be as maneuverable and efficient, under sail, as is a 28foot sloop or ketch regardless of whether or not they may be rigged full batten for open ocean work either long distance or around the bouys. I sailed on my first full batten rig at age sixteen it being a small Chinese junk that nearly sank due to a poorly designed outbord well. lt had a nasty habit of back flooding the hull! That was in the Ensenada race at night off the Todos Santos Islands. We were forced to abandon the race due to the flooding of the bilges. Had I not have brought my one gallon per stroke Portagee bilge pump along, we would have surely sunk! I have sailed some better full batten rigs since then. Have you flown the Nacra Carbon Fiber F16? Good ride!
    Take Care,
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 02-26-2020 at 01:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    I think we are conflating sail plan or spar arrangement with various " rigs" I Don't think anyone is debating whether a Bermudian rig is more effective upwind than a gaff rig. However, the fair comparison would be between a burmudian ketch and a burmudian schooner.

    While I agree that better effeciency and windward performance can only increase safety. It is perhaps not the most important thing.

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Theory aside. Handling three small sails that you can bring to the deck in a second without any resistance is a big deal when single handing.

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Well I knew that I would be setting a lot of tail feathers on fire by making the statement above! But, I do not see the wisdom in building a tiny schooner rig to no advantage as would be of a sloop or ketch of the same size. A schooner by virtue of her rig will demand greater beam to length ratio in order to remain on her feet and take advantage of the winds that will force a narrower hulled boat to take in a reef sooner than a schooner will. A schooner by the mass of her rigging compared to a sloop or ketch of the same water line length will have greater resistance to winds that fall forward of the beam which will make for frustration in a race that occurs in light airs that are dead up wind of the weather mark or blowing adversely as the sun sets behind your dock or mooring bouy.
    I do know that many of you will boo and hiss at that revelation but, that still is the way it has always been as certain rigs require certain hull demensions and hull shapes and types. A very glaring example of this can be found if anyone wishes to make a comparison is to investigate the lines of the Schooner "Joanne" compared to those of of the ketch "Tioga". Both boats came from the design board of L.Francis Herreshoff at almost the same time and erea of wooden boat design and construction.
    Both boats sail well and both boats are still competitive even though they are nearing a hundred years of age! Both are comfortable as well but I should be remiss if anyone should want to take either of these two classic designs and reduce the scale to bring either down to, lets say, 28feet in length!

    Best reaching winds gang!
    Jay
    Why do you think that a schooner is so much worse than a ketch? Setting aside that a schooner needs more drag to her keel and other differences in the hull, but the rig?
    Cutter or sloop, OK there are wins and loses when comparing one mast with two, but two two masted rigs?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Daniel I have no argument with you concerning modern full batten rigs! It sounds as if your "Sylvia" is both a good looking as well as a fun boat to sail! As for full batten rigs, I have been involved with a few of them and both agree and enjoy the added efficiency of such a rig! My friend was a highly respected naval architect that has designed more than one boat to have circumnavigated the globe and should have known better but, we all make mistakes! I just do not consider a 28 foot schooner to be as maneuverable and efficient, under sail, as is a 28foot sloop or ketch regardless of whether or not they may be rigged full batten for open ocean work either long distance or around the bouys. I sailed on my first full batten rig at age sixteen it being a small Chinese junk that nearly sank due to a poorly designed outbord well. lt had a nasty habit of back flooding the hull! That was in the Ensenada race at night off the Todos Santos Islands. We were forced to abandon the race due to the flooding of the bilges. Had I not have brought my one gallon per stroke Portagee bilge pump along, we would have surely sunk! I have sailed some better full batten rigs since then. Have you flown the Nacra Carbon Fiber F16? Good ride!
    Take Care,
    Jay
    Don't say Portagee. It is a highly offensive term to us.

    I know. Sensitive. But, well, we donít use the ďnĒ word, either.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Don't say Portagee. It is a highly offensive term to us.

    I know. Sensitive. But, well, we don’t use the “n” word, either.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Sorry Robert, No one in my family ever used the "N"word when I was a kid! That word came from the indentured labor from Nigeria as I have been told. When I was a kid the "N" word was never used unless one was from the wrong side of the tracks down in "Toonerville".

    When I first worked in boat repair I worked with a person we called "Joe Portagee". I never knew it to be an offensive term! Joe was as great guy and taught me a lot about boats from his part of the world.
    I recently referred to the Japanese go ahead split toe, "Gehta" sandels,we sometimes wear, by the name they always have had in Hawaii, when I lived there,as being "Jap Flaps" and got a rise out of my foot doctor the other day. I see that we do having living language! What was offensive yesterday and vise versa! I know for a fact that the Italian style Monterey fishing boats in San Francisco were once known as "Dago" fish boats and I am called both a "Kaiser Kid" and a "Squarehead" because of my German/ Swedish roots. But it kind of gives me a bit of connection to my ancestors and I don't mind it!

    I fear that the world is getting a little grey along with me as I add up the years of my past and people become more covetous of our living language in its varied terminology and references. In the future, I suppose the name "Butt Block" will be stricken from our literature as well.

    Sorry too all, who are offended!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 02-26-2020 at 07:56 PM.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel R. Jansen View Post
    Theory aside. Handling three small sails that you can bring to the deck in a second without any resistance is a big deal when single handing.
    I heartily agree with that kind of thinking Daniel! In fact, it is interesting to note that, we are undergoing a tremendous change in boat design, at present! Many of us who make our living from boat designs and their construction have always contended that a simple rig that is easy to handle and of low wind resistant is better than a complex one that stalls a boat working up wind and needs a full rigging shop for any repairs. Twenty years from now, I doubt that many will consider todays designs to be anything but old fashioned!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Don't say Portagee. It is a highly offensive term to us.

    I know. Sensitive. But, well, we don’t use the “n” word, either.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Fair 'nuf. In New Bedford, MA & much of Rhode Island, it's been the accepted everyday term, both in & out of the community for a long time.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Why do you think that a schooner is so much worse than a ketch? Setting aside that a schooner needs more drag to her keel and other differences in the hull, but the rig?
    Cutter or sloop, OK there are wins and loses when comparing one mast with two, but two two masted rigs?
    I see that what we are discussing here is bringing up all kinds of thinking and that is a good thing as it forces us all to come out of our sacred caves of thought! I don't think any of us care to be misquoted or misunderstood and here we are walking a kind of tight rope
    as one kind of rig is compared to another!

    Once there was nothing but commercial shipping such as cargo and people plus food needed to be moved from one place to another. But weather and tidle norms in one area were not, necessarily, the same in every area. The Romans and Phonecians began trading in the Mediteranian sea thousands of years ago. The Scandinavians built their long ships and raided Great Britain. The Egyptians plied the river Nile and ventured into the waters the Mediterranean as well as long ago as 6,000 BC. In fact they were some of the first long distance commercial carriers as well as warriors in conflict with the Greeks.

    All ships evolved by the purpose they were needed for and the materials that were available for their construction. The first Yachts were actually called Jachts and were an outgrowth of Dutch built boats that were used for pleasure. These were followed up by the Yachts that the Brittish used for pleasure sailing as early as the mid 1800's in England. The Royal Yacht Squadron was formed
    on 1 June 1815 in the Thatched House Tavern in St. James England and was known as The Yacht Club by 42 gentlemen interested in Sea Yachting, the original members decided to meet in London and in Cowes twice a year, to discuss yachting over dinner. Membership was restricted to those who owned a vessel not under 10 tons. Today this is interpreted as a gentleman "actively interested in yachting".
    And so it went on as to what we have in pleasure boats of today.

    Pleasure boat design came from work boats first and work boats, as shown above, reflected the form of boats that were proven to be seaworthy of the area they plied. Historically, yacht clubs were formed all around the world for a sharing of the interest held by many men and women in the use of boats for enjoyment rather than cartage. This brings us to how certain rigs were thought of and designed. Square sails were first used and worked fine as long as there was enough time to find the winds and currents to carry the ships as to where they needed to go. Schooners were first used in America as an evolution from Brigs and Brigantine rigs. The brig being able to carry several courses of squares on the fore while reaching or running down wind. The advantage of this rig is that it can sail both down wind and up to weather, something that barks and other types of ships could not. The ships sharper and evolved into what was known as the Baltimore Clipper which was of a narrower beam to length ratio than Brigs were. The masts also carried a distinct rake which aided in keeping the metacentric height of the hulls lower than that of other rigs while still giving plenty of sail area as well as adding to keeping the various stays in better tension because of the moment arm of the weight of the rig that keeps the rig in needed tune. Even though the rake of the rig made for a better rig it was still necessary to step the spars into a hull of sufficient hydrodynamic lift to keep the ship from sailing under in a blow or what is known as "Plowing". The Baltimore Clippers were used for slave running as the precious cargo depended on fast delivery to survive. Even so, man's in humanity to man was at a state of pique in the days of the slave trade in those days. Again, here is a ship design that evolved from necessity.

    Schooners evolved into gaff rigged vessels that shed the use of the extreme rake of rig of the Baltimore Clipper as that hull and rig design needed a top notch crew and after guard to deliver a ship and its cargo still all afloat. Even so many many disasters at sea were the result of these extreme designed vessels. Until they fell from fashion what did evolve was a design often called , a coaster schooner, a boat that was designed to be gaff rigged and easy of motion, that was well suited for carrying all manner of goods into shallow waters without grounding. Still even today, the schooner rig with its main mast set well aft and the fore in a position to balance its driving power of the main and head sails to the best advantage needs a greater amount of beam to produce the stability the rig type of rig needs. A staysail schooner such as "Lucky Star", "Wanderlure II", "Serena", "Dauntless", "Kelpie" or other famous boats of this rig still is in need of a powerful hull to support the rig that drives it. A Schooner is most happy off the wind, where a sloop or ketch of the same overall length can, most often, go to weather better than can a schooner. This is due to the necessity of more complex running rigging and the accompaning weight there of to provide the necessary sails to drive it. Off the wind, a sloop and the Ketch rig of the right hull design can often go at incredible speeds. Grant Hoag, who sailed on the seventy two foot L.Francis Herreshoff Ketch "Tichonderoga", in the 1965 Transpac Race, once told me that the Kenyon Speedometer Needle was locked on the pin all though his two hour watch where two men could only hold her course for ten minutes before having to change helmsmen. In those days the Kenyon dial only went to fifteen knots! Grant swore that they were hitting twenty which was confirmed by the navigator! They set the elapsed time record during that race and won the Transpac of 1965 that stood until the more modern designs such as "Black Finn, Piwackett and Ragtime" went even faster!

    So answer the question as to why a ketch can be faster than a sloop or a schooner is that a ketch can be set up and rigged to carry a more versitile, efficient and faster rig than can a schooner or sloop offer with two masts to set kites on. That is, unless you are going to lay into a race like The Golden Globe around the world race and want only a very hi performance sloop that will beat your brains loose and make you more tired than you have ever been as well as financially super spending money that not many people have or have access to.

    So, gang, there is really no answer to which rig is best, it is really only a personal choice.

    But then, some rigs are better than others!

    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 02-27-2020 at 01:22 PM.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Fair 'nuf. In New Bedford, MA & much of Rhode Island, it's been the accepted everyday term, both in & out of the community for a long time.
    I have heard dumb Portagee enough in my life. Portuguese is fine.

    Peace,
    Robert

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Sorry Robert, No one in my family ever used the "N"word when I was a kid! That word came from the indentured labor from Nigeria as I have been told. When I was a kid the "N" word was never used unless one was from the wrong side of the tracks down in "Toonerville".

    When I first worked in boat repair I worked with a person we called "Joe Portagee". I never knew it to be an offensive term! Joe was as great guy and taught me a lot about boats from his part of the world.
    I recently referred to the Japanese go ahead split toe, "Gehta" sandels,we sometimes wear, by the name they always have had in Hawaii, when I lived there,as being "Jap Flaps" and got a rise out of my foot doctor the other day. I see that we do having living language! What was offensive yesterday and vise versa! I know for a fact that the Italian style Monterey fishing boats in San Francisco were once known as "Dago" fish boats and I am called both a "Kaiser Kid" and a "Squarehead" because of my German/ Swedish roots. But it kind of gives me a bit of connection to my ancestors and I don't mind it!

    I fear that the world is getting a little grey along with me as I add up the years of my past and people become more covetous of our living language in its varied terminology and references. In the future, I suppose the name "Butt Block" will be stricken from our literature as well.

    Sorry too all, who are offended!
    Jay
    Just letting you know, Portagee is not a nice friendly term. Probably donít call and Italian guy ďDagoĒ, either.

    Itís 2020, and people are people.

    Personally, I have heard dumb Portagee enough to last a lifetime.

    Peace,
    Robert

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Reuel Parker 28' Pilot Schooner

    Things one learns on the WBF. I didn't even know there was a derogatory term for portuguese people, or sandals. Not that its really surprising.
    As for the rigs, this is 21. century pleasure boating. Anybody can choose whatever rig he wishes, no explaining needed. Materials and handling are advanced enough to make technical concerns irrelevant unless one goes into superyacht territory. What counts is what one likes and can afford. The rest is yesteryear's debate about "the best".

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