So this is where you have all been hanging out.....
James. We SHOULD go to Mystic together this year!
So this is where you have all been hanging out.....
James. We SHOULD go to Mystic together this year!
Could somebody describe the choice trailer for boats like the Ness Yawl, and Rowan?
When your board is 'down', how far down is it? I mean, how close to vertical, or does the leading edge stay closer to something like 45 degrees to the keel profile . . .
The efficacy of foil shape vertical daggarboard seems very obvious, less obvious to me, centerboards at less than vertical attitudes (which I think covers quite a few traditional boats). Just wonderin.
Well, Paul, I hope that this thread has been answered with enough gusto for you so far!
Looking back, I see that I have some questions I haven't answered, so let me go through and fix that.
htom, you asked how much Rowan weighs. The boat by herself weighs about 350 lbs, but I have 100 lbs of ballast aboard usually in the form of four 25 lb lead pigs bolted to pads on either side of the CB trunk on the garboards under the floorboards.
I also almost always have an anchor with some chain and rode aboard too, plus a folding grapnel for a shore hook and a lead line for depth sounding--maybe another 35-40 lbs total. The ground tackle is lashed down in a special well just in front of the CB trunk to keep it centered and low for ballast purposes, while still allowing quick deployment.
Plus there's always some stuff like fenders and compass and flares and stuff onboard. So I would say that the average all-up weight on the trailer is something close to 500 pounds-ish or so. I can lighten the boat by at least 150 lbs though, if I need to pick it up and carry it somewhere by taking out that ballast and stuff. When we pull her off her trailer to put her on sawhorses for painting or varnishing and such, we just get four guys to grab a corner each and then just pick her up.
It will be a fair amount of work because you're going to have to invent what you're doing as you go. Maybe you could mock it up with some cheap 2x4 spars and a plastic tarp to see if you can make it all fit in three dimensions with your existing boat. It would be an interesting challenge.
I did not have a chance to sail her, so I can't comment on that.
Iain's Elf and Elfyn faerings are pretty similar in shape and size to the Shearwater. I finished fitting out the interior and trim of an Elf that was started by a Bellingham friend whose health was restricting his shop time. It was pretty darn similar to a Shearwater I think, but it was such a long time ago that I rowed the Joel White design that I don't think I could honestly tell you right now which one I would prefer. I will say that both of these boats are really more rowboats you could sail than dedicated 50/50 Sail & Oar boats.
My very first sail & oar boat used a spritsail, but I've really given up on them for boats big enough to need reefing, rather than small enough that you just stop and get off the lake when the wind's too much. For our little boats, a sprit rig is really a lot more of a hassle to reef. Either you just bundle up the foot of the sail, leaving the sprit and the snotter tension alone--which gives you the undesirable result of not lowering your center of effort as much as you really like.. .
. . . or you have to fiddle with changing the height and tension and angle and all that stuff of your sprit and snotter when you've lowered the head of your sail. All of this takes time and effort, and your sail is sticking up in the wind, baggy, thrashing and blowing around while you're doing all of your snotter adjustments. It's nowhere near as quick and easy as reefing the lug.
You could do that with a lugsail if you wanted to. But since a lug is so easy to reef, you could do what I do, which is have a big ol' cloud of a lug fores'l for light to moderate wind and just reef as necessary.I still like the look of the sprit better, along with the option sprit gives of setting a light-weather jib flying on a bowsprit. . .
That has been my own experience, yes.But are the benefits of the lug so marked, in your opinion, that it really should win the day?
Last edited by James McMullen; 02-27-2010 at 10:45 PM.
Cat-ketches and cat-schooners have two serious disadvantages compared to a cat-yawl in my mind.Cat-Ketch?
First, look at difference in the comfort of a cockpit that is not jammed full of mizzenmast compared to a similar ketch.
Here's a couple of Phil Bolger designs:
and then the cat-yawl rigged Chebacco
And here's a Sea Pearl 21 compared to Rowan:
Second, with a yawl, the sail that is always working to disadvantage upwind, the one that is working in the backwind and dirty air of the forward sails is really just an "air-rudder" for trim and balance rather than a big portion of the driving force of the boat. Ketches are generally not noted for being excellent to windward. Schooners have an even worse reputation for weatherliness for the exact same reasons. Here's a schooner I built--look how everyone has to duck and dodge on every tack. There's booms in the way of everybody.
Last edited by James McMullen; 02-27-2010 at 10:47 PM.
I currently own a Crocker Stone Horse Sloop.
I know sloop rigs. I like sloop rigs. . . . . .on boats big enough to have a foredeck to go out on for sail handling that is.
But Rowan's rig is utterly and undeniably better for a small, open sail and oar cruising boat in each and every possible way. This would be true for the safety, handiness and stowability reasons even if she were a much poorer performer. She is not. The speed and weatherliness of a modern shaped dacron lugsail properly handled is quite shocking to those who have never seen one up close. These are not low-performance rigs. I think you're reading too much from that picture.
Last edited by James McMullen; 02-27-2010 at 08:16 PM.
My choice trailer is the same one they sell for a typical 16' jonboat. You don't need heavy, cause the boat isn't heavy. You may need to adjust your trailer wheels back as far as possible to get the center of gravity and tongue weight correct.
I put my CB all the way down, with the leading edge vertical for uphill sailing. I sometimes pull it all the way and stow it for downwind if I'm trying to extract every last scrap of speed, though I prefer to have it down all the way even dead downwind in rougher weather as it seems to have a steadying, dampening effect when it gets too exciting.
Here's a plan view, showing the CB fully extended:
I used to play with it up or down varying amounts to try and fiddle with helm balance, but the mizzen's effect is so much more powerful that I've pretty much stopped bothering with that and just play the mizzen for helm balance now.
Not really car-topable, then, at least for realistic versions of car and human. Not that it would be easy to cartop a Shearwater. Thanks for the discussion; your pride in Rowan is entirely appropriate and well deserved.
The Ness Yawl is a fine boat too! Here's some more crabbing pictures:
Plenty of room aboard!
Holding the fores'l over to push the boat away from the dock with no steerage-way:
And from afar:
i wanna go sailing with this crowd....sounds like a whole lotta fun.....im a sharing kind of guy!! Cheers
If I were in the position to build a new open s/r boat, I'd be paying a James a visit NOW.
When you all decide to set a date for the next San Juan Sail and Oar Messabout, make sure you put it up. Im bound and determined to go this year.
Member of the Loyal, Mostly-Noble, Elite and Most Ancient order of the Laughing Polar Bear Cap Society.
I ask out of Ignorance, not Criticism.
Once I get my new rig, we should consider dropping my old sprit rig into Matty. That would be fun.
Greetings from Portland, I finally manage to come aboard on this forum. Been readin a bunch about Iain and his boats as well as all your post here. It's good to see you have established yourself as a reputable source for wooden boat building. Your Rowan sure is impressive and acknowledged by Iain himself . Is the Dragonfly (Ness Yawl?) the same boat you built in Portland?
I seem to have settled on building the Artic Tern but not sure if the JII (5'1" beam) would be a bit better for rowing. As it stands for now it will be next winter before I can start on it anyhow. I need to finish remodeling the house and get the landscaping going.
I joined RiversWest Small Craft Center this year getting to know everyone. The shop is close to me at Pier 99 off I-5 at Marine Dr. I am lookin to reserve some space in the RW shop. I figure I can still get my plans this year and start selecting my wood various parts and get them rough cut. Am I being too ambitious thinking I can build a boat in 6 months? I have enough hard wood and fir to do a couple of boats so I will just need to get the plywood when I am ready for it. Hardware is another issue, where is the best place to get to the hardware I will be needing?
Enough for now, lookin forward to hear from you.
Nice to hear from you again, Mike! "Reputable source", though? Gracious sakes!
Yes, Dragonfly is that same boat I built all those years ago in Portland. She's still going strong!
I prefer the wider beam myself, as I find I prefer to sail as much as possible, and only row when necessary. I haven't found the 5'4" beam to be onerous.
Building an AT in 6 months? Easy, if you can take the time off and build full-time. In fact, I'd probably bid one to take about three months. Not so easy if you are restricted to working evenings and weekends, though. That's more likely going to take you at least a year.
You won't need very much hardware--mostly just bits for the rudder. If you want, you can come up to Anacortes some weekend and we'll cast you pintles and gudgeons from Rowan's patterns.
Last edited by James McMullen; 04-18-2010 at 11:24 AM.
My Caledonia Yawl took 11 months of evenings and weekends, so you're estimate is pretty darn close James.
Eternal optimist and a slow learner.
19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow
SOF Ruth Wherry
and a new SOF Whitehall too.
I started an Arctic Tern (decked yawl option) Nov 1 and hope to be sailing by mid-May. I'd guess I'll have 6 - 700 hours into it when done. I really haven't been keeping track of the time, though - makes it seem too much like work.
Here's what it looks like so far:
The difference between a decked yawl and an open cat rigged boat would be a significant amount of time.
Last edited by mcdenny; 04-18-2010 at 09:14 PM.
Just dropped in again. I am becoming a fan of the balanced lug, although I'll probably get around to experimenting with a little bitty spanker before converting my boat to a lug fore. The other day in a good breeze I was thinking about how much tension was being put on the snotter and peak to flatten the sail, possibly the stresses are more favorably disposed with the lug and its downhaul. For a bigger boat I'll draw a lug yawl from the get go. I do enjoy not having a boom, my sheet running aft to the quarter knees, very much out of the way, oh well. I can recall only one instance, in very strong winds, where I momentarily experienced the death roll. The solution seems to be to bring the helm up a touch (and/or reef). Like to take a closer look at your centerboard mechanism and pivot point James, I should think getting her all the way down in a vertical position is helpful to windward. Nice thread, worth revisiting.
Great pictures, James, and a very interesting thread.
"Simplicity, Clarisse! First principles..."
Your anchor locker is brilliant! Elisabeth Grace wants one! I see we share the same taste in "the best floating anchor ever made."
I have a ton of lead accumulated in a weak moment to be used in a small, spartan gaff sloop from a noted Canadian designer. I often wonder if Elisabeth Grace, at 900 pounds, should have some lead in her belly? Nick Grainer's C.Y. Crazybird has quite a bit of lead in her bilge with no ill effects. What say ye?
What are the dimensions and weight of Rowan's main mast? Wood type?
I can't speak for James' spar, but my C.Y. fore mast is similar in size and made of solid New England/New Brunswick spruce. Not the fancy Pacific NW stuff. I don't know what it weighs, but even an old phart like me can handle it. As long as I grab it near the middle for balance, it's eay to step and take down. The wee mizzen mast is near weightless. Hope that helps.
Last edited by Venchka; 04-28-2010 at 11:03 AM.
I'll have to look that up on my plans. . . .I'll get back to you.
James, while you're at it could you also measure the weight of the yard? Inquiring minds want to know.
I'd be real surprised if estimated weights for the mast and yard are in the plans and if they are, we both know how optimistic Iain is about weights of things. For instance, show me a Caledonia Yawl that weighs 340 lbs. Useful information would be the actual weights of your spars.
Last edited by kenjamin; 04-28-2010 at 01:55 PM.
I'll show you a before picture of a stack of plywood that weighed 340 pounds, give or take. Then show you an after picture of a finished boat that comes closer to 900 pounds.
My mission in life: Stamp out the Internet Myth that a Caledonia yawl hull weighs 340 pounds.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Okay, found the info I'd written down. I used top-shelf air-dried Sitka Spruce for the foremast, a solid spar of two laminations. I used a solid spar instead of a hollow spar to keep the diameters down for less drag--plus I had suffered a catastrophic dismasting in Angyapik with a hollow spar than had crumpled at the partners, so I was feeling a bit gun-shy about hollow masts at the time I built it. 17' long, tapering from 2 1/4" at the top to 4" at the partners, where it changes to a square section tapered back down to the step.
Rowan's solid spruce foremast complete with leathering, halliards and parrel hoop--in other words the entire weight you need to lift in order to step the mast--weighs 22lbs 3oz.
The yard is a birdsmouth hollow spar of sitka spruce with red cedar end plugs.
The weight of the yard is 5 lbs 6 oz complete with leathering, peak outhaul control hardware and hoisting roband. That means the two of them together weigh a total of 27 lbs 9 oz.
Does that help?
Just for fun ... my 15'3 birdsmouth spruce spar without any of the accouterments weighs 12 pounds. It's probably 1 3/4 at the top, and 3" at the partner, with douglas fir plugs.
Wow ! Spruce is extremely light ! James could you give me an idea what the same spars would weigh in fir ? What I'd call oregon pine ,
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Hi Peter: I just weighed my caledonia yawl mast. It is birdsmouth constructed and is Douglas fir. It weighs 21.2 lbs. without the halyard and parrel beads.
Thanks Robert , I have quite a good stash of Mt St Helens fir ....your weight seems just fine .
Last edited by PeterSibley; 04-28-2010 at 07:04 PM.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
but comfortable cruising in a stinkpot is out!
Good thread by the way!
Did any of you happen to see this video that turned over after (super)yeadon's clip of James rowing Rowan? I thought it was very exciting to see her making such a great rate of knots with such ease.
Back to Rowan, James - what do you consider the capacity of Rowan (not the coast guard number, what you would sail with) to be and what would be your best guess at the rowing draft ( board up) when so loaded?
I enjoy sailing her best with one to four people aboard. I have fit a ridiculous number of people in her at a time for short jaunts upon occasion though. . . seven full grown adults I think it was, shuttling Pacific Challenge Judges out to the committee boat. . . .plus I don't remember how many as the midnight water taxi at Port Townsend last year. But I think that four adults with gear is a practical comfortable maximum for any more extended cruising.
Draft while rowing with four has still gotta be no more than a foot, probably 8-10 inches I'd guess. Nothing much to speak of. Effortlessly beachable.
Thanks James. That tells me that such a boat could be taken out on a pond or lake.
Have you ever used Rowan on such a body of water?
Sure! Small, boring lakes are just not as much fun as tide rips, miles of open fetch and the chance to see whales and seals, but I've taken Rowan to plenty of lakes and rivers too. She's much bigger and more seaworthy than necessary for small water, though. If protected water is really what you're mostly after, you might be more satisfied with a smaller, lighter, cheaper boat.
I am going to have to say, as usual, you are not wrong. BUT(BUTT?), just like I did not need a punt that will stand tragic overloading to mow down bluegills with my trusty three weight, I have no need for a boat as seaworthy as Rowan for at least a few seasons if my oxygen supply lasts that long.
I do however like having a boat under me with more capability than I need. Perhaps after effect from riding the Nimitz as a young man. One adventure I dream of is sailing up the Delaware to the Canal, and then down the Chesapeake to Smith Island, Yew Island, Tangier, etc.... Or even crossing the mouth of the Bay to Cape May N.J.
I have done the latter in a kayak, and have to say that at least a nice double ender will be needed before pulling that particular stunt again.
Almost at the point where I want to build a model, perchance an activity for the winter months.
I noticed that one outfit is selling a Sooty Tern Kit. What would be your price point for such an offering before you decided to work from plans?
I'd recommend you build it yourself from scratch, regardless. This is still simple, epoxy-using, plywood boatbuilding after all. Oughtred's plans are very complete, and you really don't need a CNC cut package for a boat like this. These boats look much harder to build than they actually are. A bona-fide traditional lapstrake boat is way harder.
I might have to add a set of plans to my library. I am curious, do you now and/or did you ever build models?
Here's a 1 1/2 inch:1 foot scale model of Oughtred's Wee Seal design built via the carved lifts method and set up for radio control. This is a boat I seriously considered building before deciding that I personally preferred either smaller open boats I can row, or boats large enough to have a fixed ballast keel, inboard diesel and a wood stove inside, and not so much this in-betweener size.
And here's a shot of the mechanisms, the steering quadrant and the sail sheeting servo arm: