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Thread: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

  1. #1
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    Default A Reasonable way to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Every once in a while, a photo of a particular boat is posted on the Forum and without fail, scores of forumites declare how appealing they find this special little craft... I think its about time someone drew up some plans for this wonderful anonymous Scandinavian work boat.

    I'm betting that most here would agree that many folks on the WB forum have fallen in love Russ Manheimer's Scandinavian work boat "Sjogin". http://www.sjogin.com/?page_id=17

    ... and Russ seems to have had little success in finding info on who designed his boat. ... what plans it came from... etc...

    The following comments from Russ's website:
    Sjoginis a small traditional Scandinavian workboat (I assume that she’s a koster type) that we sail in the north end of Barnegat Bay in New Jersey. We keep her in an old fashioned boat yard, David Beaton and Sons in West Mantoloking, near our home.

    She seems to be modeled on a typical clinker (lapstrake) Swedish inshore fishing boat and not one of the more refined carvel types. Sis 22’ LOA, 8’ Beam and draws about 2’9’’. She has a long shallow keel. Also she’s never had an engine. I carry a sweep to scull when needed but otherwise use whatever wind’s available to get in and out of her slip. ...

    ... As far as we know, Sjogin was built in Southern NJ in 1961 by a gentlemen named Gullen (sp?). We have no further details of her builder or designer. While she has workboat roots, her proportions and details suggest she was drawn by a well practiced eye. If any of you can help identify the designer I’d be most grateful. I thought she might be designed by Murray Peterson but his son Bill thought not.

    I don’t sail very far from the boat yard, mostly content to sail near the local marshes and heave to and read. Sjoginhas a great ability to heave to. When on the wind you can remove the tiller, leaving the jib sheet set, and she will come about and settle on the opposite tack for as long as you wish. Or until you run out of Bay!


    Anyway, I wanted to attach some images for review and get some input on developing plans for such a craft ... perhaps as part of an NA's stock plan library. Alternatively, certainly there would be enough interested parties to chip in for such an endeavor.

    The photos attached show a lovely balanced craft with tons of visual grace. I usually don't become so enamoured with a boat design, but this design really has great appeal. I was also thinking she would be even more lovely with a gaff main... and as a gaff/yawl even better. Certainly "Sjogin" does not afford a lot of room below decks... but she is a beauty queen and I bet plenty capable. Additionally, a larger version around 27-30 feet would be quite interesting IMHO... because you would gain the room in the interior but still have a capable and beautiful craft.

    I recently emailed John Welsford about considering developing plans for "Sjogin" and his remarks are interesting... although he initially recommend I look at "Grey Seal", Ian Oughtred's design.
    "Converting" the inspiration of an older classic into a boat built in more modern construction is a somewhat fraught task, in that the boat will be markedly lighter, and just adding more ballast can upset the handling characteristics. Grey Seal for example would not weigh in at much more than half of the classic at the same length, which means that in order to get adequate accommodation she will have more freeboard and coachhouse so spoiling the "look".

    I'l love to have a go at your task, and the way that I do it is to try and slightly accentuate the key visual factors that make the original so distinctive and appealing rather than to completely replicate the original in new materials.
    Of course, John is quite buried in work for the next couple of years... but his comments are of interest here. I was already familiar with Ian Oughtreds "Grey Seal"... and I think "Sjogin" is a bit more appealing.





    In making the case for a designer to spend some time in developing a set of plans for an obviously superlative design, I would say the following.

    I realize that most designers want to design their own unique designs, but staying close to "masterpiece" designs... can certainly result in a much more appealing design... IMHO.

    When designers work on designs of a general "type", perhaps staying closer to extremely successful designs while incorporating modern building techniques would make for more demand of said design. Many classic designs have tremendous appeal, although to build such craft, the would be builder has to contend with getting the design converted to modern epoxy composite building methods... and perhaps deal with some other compromises in space below decks etc. Sometimes,when designs are re-done, much of the aesthetic appeal is lost.

    When you consider that with Alden Yachts still selling their older classic designs for up to $100/foot of length... there must be demand for classic designs from the past.

    Look at the Morris 36, by Morris Yachts... a modern example of traditional type craft from Sparkman snd Stephens... that is just as beautiful as any of the boats from the past. http://www.morrisyachts.com/The-Morris-M36

    Anyway, I was hoping to spark an idea... see if at minimum some plans for Russ's Sjogin could be developed or perhaps someone may read this and realize they know the origin of the plans. Russ is certainly willing to attempt to take off the lines...

    On weight distribution...Sjogin seems to be quite bare inside and I wasn't thinking all that heavy. If you build her glued ply lap, couldn't you add some weight back with making her absolutely encapsulated, maintenance free and sealed very well... heavier scantlings in framing, etc.....plus add some cabinets etc that would get her back to a weight of the original? I had read that boats like Sjogin were not all that heavy with cedar strakes...? I figured some real bright members here would have some good input... and I know Russ would be all for getting some basic plans developed for "Sjogin".







    Russ gives us some size scale here...




    Continued ...
    Last edited by RodB; 02-01-2010 at 11:40 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"












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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"



    The inside of "Sjogin"... sure makes one think of building traditional....







    [IMG][/IMG]



    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 02-01-2010 at 11:40 PM.

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    I think it's a great idea. Maybe Micheal Mason has time. He's done drawings of Elly, another Kosterboat. See the articles about her in Woodenboat #58, 150, 162. She's in that 28 - 30 foot range, I think.

    Elly:



    Steven

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Sounds great.....

    RodB

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    sjogin is elegant
    Boat Designer

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    Default Re: A Reasonable way to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"





    Grey Seal's primary disadvantage is running the
    cabin forward of the mast , a great advantage accomodation wise but not aesthetically ....I have to admit to liking blunter stems too .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Elly;


    Earl
    "Always keep an edge on your knife,son..."

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Another Sogin fan here so bear with me. I think finding a designer who can put aside all his thoughts and prejudice about what makes a good design is impossible. Everyone I've spoken too wants to make their own "improvements" thus loosing the character of the boat. What seems to be needed is someone with an historical preservation background and the ability to take accurate dimensions to reproduce Sojins lines and details. Then, using books such as Gerr's Elements of Boat Strength we could likely determine how to put her together using modern construction techniques.
    When the last tree is cut
    When the last river is dry
    When the last fish is caught
    Only then will Man realize that he cannot eat money.

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Steven, thank you for thinking of me. Sjogin is indeed a pretty boat. Unfortunately, I'll be busy for the next fifteen to eighteen months on another project. Maybe it could be a project that can be squeezed in between the end of that and before The End Of The World As We Know It in 2012... <grin>

    Michigangeorge, I disagree with your opinon that a designer cannot be found who will accurately record an existing vessel. If that is want you want, and are paying the designer, then he/she must honour the client's request or risk a lawsuit. Most changes to an original traditional design are motivated either by a specific client's demands (commissioned design) or the designer's opinion of what is most likely to sell on today's market (stock portfolio design). Now, if you ask the designer to make compromise decisions to accommodate modern materials & construction materials, then things may well subtly change. Finally, having done several 'historic recreations' for both period-correct and more modern construction techniques, I can assure you from hard-earned experience that you will need much more than Dave Gerr's excellent book to "put her together using modern construction techniques" and maintain her looks, stability, and seakeeping characteristics. The necessity to maintain displacement, weight distribution, and structural strength using different materials and techniques is sometimes, well, fussy.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Looks to me like she was retrofitted with more ballast - seems odd that the balast profile so departs from the general keel profile . . . or not.

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Rod,

    Needless to say I'm deeply appreciative for the work on the photos and the contacts with John Welsford and Francois Vivier. And for this thread of course. And for everyone's comments over the years, both here and on my Blog.

    As mentioned before, I think Sjogin was designed by a professional or a very talented amateur. While it’s clear she’s based on a Scandinavian fish/workboat, possibly one of the Kosterboat types, her various elements all work together especially well. And even though I curse each time I hit my head on a deck beam, I wouldn’t change a thing. (Except conclude Sjogin was designed for folks of shorter stature.)

    I would dearly like to have a set of plans for Sjogin if for no other reason to play around with a gaff yawl set up. I expect though I'll stick with the knockabout rig for it's pure simplicity. Pull out the tiller when on the wind, watch as she heads up, falls off and looks after herself thereafter.

    John Brady of the Independence Seaport Museum in Philadelphia is planning a workshop on taking off lines. I hope to take the course and do some preliminary lines work this summer. If I get industrious I may have a stab at doing the plans myself. I made it through half of the Westlawn course and should be able to produce something useful.

    Regardless, it does my heart good to see my little hooker fussed over.

    Thanks again,

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Russ,

    This book (edited by Lipke, Spectre and Fuller) will give you many ideas and tools for the process:

    Boats- A Manual for Their Documentation
    Published in association with the Museum Small Craft Association The first complete guide to measuring, recording, and preserving this important part of our cultural heritage, "Boats" provides advice from America's leading boat builders, architects and engineers, cultural historians and folk life specialists on how to care for boats and chronicle their individual histories. Extensively illustrated, bursting with time-saving hints and helpful assistance, and formatted to facilitate use in the field, "Boats" covers the waterfront: from simple pencil and tape measure to sophisticated computer-assisted documentation. For the curator of major maritime collections to the weekend sailor, this book offers step-by-step guidance for understanding and documenting sailing vessels.
    "When I was a boy with never a crack in my heart."

    -W. B. Yeats

  14. #14
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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Thanks Dave, it's on its way.
    Hove to off Swan Point......

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    I'm not a sailboat person and Sjojin prompted me to compliment, and not being a sailor had me questioning myself as to the validity of my eye for not knowing what makes for a good design.

    What is it that Mike Fonville calls it, "Profile lust"?

    First time I got caught by such a condition, I ended up married with children and divorced. The second time, a Simmons sea skiff. Lastly, it has been a woman in NJ that strikes that same nerve and if not for the fact that she is practical and good for me as well, I'd begin to think I may need professional help, or that there was no help for me at all.

    Beautiful boat, Russ.

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Much of what is appealing with Sjogin can be attributed to the builder’s skills. They are traditional techniques that are lost in most modern builds. I think "Grey Seal" or any number of small sailboats could benefit from close study of the construction details as a whole.

    When Sjogin was built, it is likely that the “plans” were just a set of lines or moulds, and every single construction detail, the number of planks, the shape and lining off of the planks, the length of the rebates, the heights and profiles of the stems, the attachment of all the "furniture" (house, rails, the taper of the rails, chocks, tiller, shape of the rudder and etc.) were a decision carefully made and executed by the builder.

    Obviously Sjogin's builder was an artist and a genius, he had the vision from the beginning.
    A simple glance at the craft will tell even an inexperienced eye this fact. An experienced eye will know the man was a genius. I submit that it is not the "plans" that make this boat so appealing.
    Three cheers to Sjogin’s builder.
    He would have made any boat “A thing of beauty and a joy forever”

    (A study of K. Aage Nielsons work will reveal this attention to detail, it is not common, but he was trained as builder first, then a designer).

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Roger Long used to specialise in recreating older boats too. He recreated a very fine Friendship sloop "Rita" for a friend of mine.

    http://www.rogerlongboats.com/Boats.htm


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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Russ,

    How about a brief synopsis on Sjogin ... from sailing behavior to sea motion, etc. A summary of her characteristics would be appropriate here...

    Canoeyawl...

    Thanks for the input... excellent post! ... you are so right, the small details all add up to an incredible craft. I would ask, is there any reason why a modern epoxy composite (glued ply lap) version of this design could not be just as stunning while maintaining the vital characteristics?... perhaps overbuilding her on purpose to maintain the weight distribution of the original.

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 02-02-2010 at 01:26 PM.

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Quote Originally Posted by RodB View Post
    I would ask, is there any reason why a modern epoxy composite (glued ply lap) version of this design could not be just as stunning?

    RodB
    maybe you could get close, but not sure about 'just as' . . .

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Close...
    But there are no "short-cuts"


  21. #21
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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    This book (edited by Lipke, Spectre and Fuller) will give you many ideas and tools for the process:

    Boats- A Manual for Their Documentation
    Published in association with the Museum Small Craft Association The first complete guide to measuring, recording, and preserving this important part of our cultural heritage, "Boats" provides advice from America's leading boat builders, architects and engineers, cultural historians and folk life specialists on how to care for boats and chronicle their individual histories. Extensively illustrated, bursting with time-saving hints and helpful assistance, and formatted to facilitate use in the field, "Boats" covers the waterfront: from simple pencil and tape measure to sophisticated computer-assisted documentation. For the curator of major maritime collections to the weekend sailor, this book offers step-by-step guidance for understanding and documenting sailing vessels.
    __________________
    Sure hard to find this book for less than $95... ???? Still looking.

    R

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    List your interest here: http://www.paperbackswap.com/book/de...+Documentation

    I've been surprised how often I get responses from people interested in swapping books with me.
    "When I was a boy with never a crack in my heart."

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    I think Russ is a lucky man to have such a nice boat and Sjogin is lucky to be in the hands of an owner who appreciates her.The aft end of the cockpit coaming is beautifully matched to the shape of the stern.

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Quote Originally Posted by RodB View Post
    Sure hard to find this book for less than $95... ???? Still looking.
    R
    "Boats: A Manual for Their Documentation" will be made available by the Museum Small Craft Association as a PDF on a CD very shortly. We're working on the distribution details.

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Eric,

    Don't know why the ballast has that shape. It's let into the keel about three inches but is still the lowest point on the boat. If it had been made longer for the same weight I'd have a few inches more under my keel. Then again it's probably better the way it is for her motion.

    CY,

    Thanks for the observation. I imagine that if she didn't have that look she wouldn't have been so well loved and perished long before now. I've been fairly successful in keeping the original proportions when making replacements. The trim on the house and the cockpit are my work. Most of everything else is original. (Though the rub rails are 20% dutchmen.)

    I'd love to ask Mr. Gullen what he had in mind when building Sjogin to make her just so. He was Swedish and sailed on sailing ships when that was the way it was done. The story is that he wanted to build a boat that reminded him of home and produced this one boat. I don't think he was a builder but who knows. He died a few years after building Sjogin.

    Rod,

    Sjogin's deceptively tender. When you step on her rail she heels a strake and a half but that's about it. When pressed in a full sail breeze she'll wet her rail. Regular water on deck calls for a reef.

    In light air she hates a slop as would any fairly light, beamy boat. Given a bit of breeze she'll smack through a light chop and remain pretty dry. When pushed she shows her age and will leak for a while. As a result, most of my sailing is in light to moderate airs.

    Paul,

    It would take work to duplicate that patina. No reason you couldn't build a replica. I had a post on the real deal here. It's all straightforward woodenboat building with a bit of plywood thrown in. Sjogin's house sides and cabin top are 1" fir ply of remarkable durability.

    Thanks all,

    Russ
    Hove to off Swan Point......

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    I have to say, having been on Sjogin, a lot of the charm of the boat emanates from the unfinished, exposed backbone, frames and planking, visible in the cockpit and inside the cabin. There was one plank seam, back near the rudderpost, that had a most appealing way of weeping just a bit, on certain points of sail.

    A lovely boat, elegantly simple and wonderfully detailed.

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    List your interest here: http://www.paperbackswap.com/book/de...+Documentation

    I've been surprised how often I get responses from people interested in swapping books with me.
    Thanks... I found a copy for around $50... on Biblio.com its on the way.... a good addition to my library from the reviews I have read.


    Rod,

    Sjogin's deceptively tender. When you step on her rail she heels a strake and a half but that's about it. When pressed in a full sail breeze she'll wet her rail. Regular water on deck calls for a reef.

    In light air she hates a slop as would any fairly light, beamy boat. Given a bit of breeze she'll smack through a light chop and remain pretty dry. When pushed she shows her age and will leak for a while. As a result, most of my sailing is in light to moderate airs.
    Thanks for the detail Russ...

    Rod

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    There was a guy with a 3D laser surveyor's tool at the Mystic Small Boat Meet last June. He said if he set it to a low accuracy like one eighth of an inch it could scan the shape of every boat on the beach and record it's shape in very little time. I seem to remember that maximum accuracy was very high.

    I believe the Dupont shipyard at Mystic might have one of these things.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/derijonesassoc

    http://www.gmat.unsw.edu.au/snap/pub...harvey2006.pdf

  29. #29
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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    For me the appeal of building Sjogin would lie in reproducing her as faithfully as possible, using traditional methods. For this a set of lines along with some construction and scantling details, like the ones that Chapelle made, would be enough. Surely any attempt to modernize her would lead us back to Grey Seal, which is a fine design, but she's not Sjogin.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Russ's "Sjogin" is one of my favorite boats on this forum. Some boats have all the right pieces and details but just don't quite work for some reason. But "Sjogin" just has the "WOW" factor. Every detail and feature just seems to flow into the next effortlessly. In an understated way this is one of the most elegant boats I've ever seen.

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    I think, personally, that the entire lines could be taken from that boat in one day, and enough information can be gleaned in one day tto make a similarly beautiful boat. If you know the materials used without diassembling and testing, an extremely accurate copy can be made. Chuck took the lines from 4 or 5 differnt Herreschoff 12 1/2 and made the plans so accurate, that they are virtually perfect designs, more so than some other copies on the market.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    What a post.


    Love hurts.
    basil

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Quote Originally Posted by holzbt View Post
    Russ's "Sjogin" is one of my favorite boats on this forum. Some boats have all the right pieces and details but just don't quite work for some reason. But "Sjogin" just has the "WOW" factor. Every detail and feature just seems to flow into the next effortlessly. In an understated way this is one of the most elegant boats I've ever seen.
    Well said !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    Sjogin looks remarkably similiar to a boat Colin Archer designed: a 22ft dayboat for himself. There's been one built recently called Sagitta II. The owner/ builder's website built in Norway is:

    http://www.skarp.no/sagittaII.htm

    I think it might be this design built with a small cabin added and sloop rigged rather than the gaff cutter original. Plans are available from Norweigan Maritime Museum for about £70. There's been a post before by Oyvind Snibsoer on the Woodenboat forum with pictrures of it on the water. A beautiful boat with integrity and history.

    http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88425

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    Default Re: How to get plans developed for Russ's "Sjogin"

    I think you might be onto something there ....
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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