Timber Point Sloop

[Dub]

Is anyone familiar with a Timber Point Sloop? The boat was the subject of Richard Bode's memoir, *First You Have to Row a Little Boat*. (Good book, I recommend it.) Apparently, the boat was about 23 feet and there were 15-20 made at some point. At any rate, I'd enjoying seeing plans or learning more if anyone knows anything. Thanks.

[holzbt]

The Timber Point class was designed by Cox and Stevens in 1924.This was the big kids boat for the west end of the great south bay on Long Island's south shore.The Greenport Basin And Construction Co. built 25 boats in the winter of 1924-1925. One aditional boat was built in 1938 but I believe this was home built, the stem and transom profiles were not quite right. The downfall of the class for racing came in 1938 when half the class changed to a tall rig with standing backstay. Afterword many were fitted with cuddy cabins and used for cruising.( That was when people could cruise without standing headroom, running water, or even a bunk for everyone on the boat.)Boat #27 (original # unknown) was rebuilt by the owner several years ago and sails out of Babylon, NY. I presently own #13 and sailed her about 15 years ago but she is in need of a major rebuild.Mystic Seaport has the plans including the rig modification.If you contact Mystic the plans may say Islip One Design as that is what the class was going to be called. And,Yes, they do sail as well as Richard Bode claims and #27 is definitely the prettiest boat on the great south bay.

[Dub]

Thanks so much for this information. I was in Mystic this summer for the Wooden Boat Show, and tried to identify this boat in some of their books and literature with no luck. If one of these boats becomes available, please let me know. Until then, I'll have to put it on my growing wish list of boats to build.

[kinstantkarma]

Holzbt,Thanks for the great info on the Timber Point. Shortly after seeing your posted comments,I contacted Mystic Seaport and purchased a copy of the plans from 1924. The cost was $36 for 3 prints. The boat is truly a treasure. I was wondering if you have any photos of #13 or #2, and if so could you post them on this or another web site. And by the way is #13 for sale. As an aside, I grew up on LI and now live on the lower Chesapeake. Richard Bode's book "Blue Sloop at Dawn" which is his first book, is a detailed accounting of his life as a young boy and focuses heavily on his Timber Point. The book has been out of print since the mid 70's. I have 3 copies. All were found on the net. It is my favorite of his 3 books. Thanks again.

[Ed Harrow]

I picked up Blue Sloop at a marine store in Portland, OR last year. Well it is an interesting book, and certainly more detailed than First You Have to..., I prefer the later as it is more distilled, and, certainly from a philosophical viewpoint, it is, IMHO, a much stronger piece. For those with the inclination, ABE.COM is a great source for used books. I have bought several and found the descriptions to match the books condition very nicely, and the individuals with whom I dealt to be pleasant and personable.

[holzbt]

Kinstantkarma, I have not been able to find a photo yet but will keep looking.When I find one I will post it. As for #13 I don't want to sell, in fact I just started clearing out some space around it today. I have the boat supported on the hull and have dropped the keel out. If all goes well maybe I'll have the new keel in this fall.

[kinstantkarma]

Holzbt, Thanks for the reply. Keep working on #13 and hopefully she will sail on the GSB again. But if you ever change your mind don't forget me. I'll wait for a photo. Thanks again!!

[holzbt]

Some photo's can be viewed at http://www.journalistic.com/timberpoint/
These photo's are of boat #27 (original # unkown) and were taken in the fall of 2000. The text with the photo's should say Great South Bay instead of Long Island Sound as the place of his childhood.

[ 03-06-2002, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: holzbt ]

[Roger Stouff]

What a true beauty. Thanks for the pics.

[Art Read]

Oh, my! That's good boat porn! Anybody got a link to one sailing?

[John B]

lovely boats.

[Bill Perkins]

I wonder if the hurricane of 1938 had anythig to do with the decline of raceing . The loss of a few boats might have had a big effect on such a small class .

[holzbt]

I've never heard of the hurricane as a reason for the demise of the Timber Point class for racing. The old timers I've spoken to all said it was the rig change. The tall rig was faster which basically split the class in two. Also by that time the boats were 13 years old and newer, faster classes were appearing which were more appealing to the hotshots.

[kcox]

Holzbt, do you still own #13? I myself ordered the plans from mystic and would like to build. The plans look good, but I do have some confusion on the centerboard trunk construction. The bed logs don't appear to be wide enough to through bolt. Trunk walls 1" and logs 1 1/2". Could you post some pics of your centerboard truck if you still have it. Thanks, Karl

[Wiley Baggins]

Originally posted by kcox:
... but I do have some confusion on the centerboard trunk construction...

Centerboard? The photos above (thanks for that link, holzbt) show a boat that appears to have plenty of lateral plane. Is that board (and the added complexity) really warranted?

[kcox]

Wouldn't hurt my feelings any to eliminate the board and trunk, but the plans do call for it.

[Wiley Baggins]

kcox,

Please don't put too much weight on the value of the rationale behind my query. It (the lateral plane) just "looks" adequate to me. Hopefully holzbt will provide some guidance in this regard.

[holzbt]

Neither my boat (#13) or the boat in the link (#27, original # unkown) still has the trunk. #27 has about a 4" thick piece added between the keel and the ballast increasing the draft. It's been quite some time but I used to sail against him and really didn't notice that the extra 4" made much difference between the two boats. The trunk was removed from my boat some time in the 1950's and I believe #27 also had the trunk removed about the same time. The boat built in 1938 still had the trunk the last time I saw it (about 10 years ago) but I can't recall the details. I don't think you would really miss the trunk unless you were racing another TP that had one. If you are interested I could probably figure out the details by studying the plans and my original keel.

[Wiley Baggins]

holzbt,

Thanks for the feedback on the boat's handling without the centerboard.

[kcox]

Did you go through a major rebuild with your boat? Mentioned you could examine your original keel and plans. I noticed, or at least I thought, that the boat in the link you had posted appeared to have a deeper draft than what shows on the plans. Couldn't see the centerboard trunk but thought it was the angle of the pic. Any thoughts on the trunk construction and pics of yours would be greatly appreciated.

[holzbt]

The bedlogs are 1 1/2" x5 1/2" and are drift bolted to the keel. The 1" trunk sides are then drifted to the bedlogs and riveted/bolted to the headledges at each end. There is plenty of thickness for these drifts, you just need to drill accurately. The headledges are notched about 3" into the keel and would be riveted or bolted to the keel timber. The construction plan doesn't show splines in the trunk sides but if you choose to spline them you will need to offset both the splines and drifts. This is so as not to completely cut through the splines with the drift bolts. Another alternative is to rabbet the bedlogs to accept plywood trunk sides which would eliminate all but the bedlog to keel bolts.

[Edward Kauf]

[Edward Kauf]

I have a few pictures what is said to be the last Timber point built, but I don't know how to post them. One shows the centerboard penant. I sailed
on this boat many times, and Only remember using the board once or twice. I would be happy to post the pics if someone could tell me how it's done, I can't seem to get it to work.

[kcox]

Thanks, all. Keep the info coming. I need all the help I can get.

[holzbt]

Due to the number of e-mails I've received about these boats over the years I thought I'd post photo's of some of the drawings. Sorry for the poor quality but that is the best I can do right now.

The tall rig designed in 1937.

The original 1925 low rig.

Lines

Construction

[holzbt]

I've been helping out at the yard up the street on some repair work on Timberpoint #9 recently. A few people who have stopped by have mentioned this thread when told what type of boat it is so I thought I'd give it a bump.

[holzbt]

Timber Point #9 before removal of cabin and repair of stem which corrected the profile back to original.


#9 after some surgery.


Timber Point #27 (original # unknown)


Timber Point #13

[holzbt]

[RodB]

Edward kaulf...

email the photos to me and I will post them...

rodbrink@yahoo.com

this is a great design

RodB

[StevenBauer]

He hasn't posted in over two years, he might not see this Rod.
I would love to see more pics of these beauties, though, too.


Steven

[RodB]

oops..... love this design...

R

[Yeadon]

I'm reading this book right now (First You Have to Row a Little Boat, by Richard Bode). The book is alright, but that boat, well, that's pretty nice. I'll be bookmarking this boat under my "favorite designs," which is a pretty long list at the moment.

In the book, Richard Bode describes how the boat has a shoal draft keel, plus a centerboard that drops down a foot or so to provide more lateral resistance. I had a similar set-up on an old Watkins 23 I used to own in Florida. Great set-up ... really helpful in knowing when you're about to go aground.

[dpetrzelka]

Beautiful lines on that boat!

[johngsandusky]

I used to see her all the time. That's Carl at the helm.

[RodB]

Love this design... more pics please...

RodB

[holzbt]

I've gotten PM's looking for info and the search function leaves a bit to be desired so I thought I'd bump this up.

Timber point #9

[dskira]

I've gotten PM's looking for info and the search function leaves a bit to be desired so I thought I'd bump this up.

Timber point #9

This is adorable pictures. Thank you.

[holzbt]

A pair of TP's at Bay Shore YC probably 1925 or 1926.

[wingnut247]

Thanks for the bump Holzbt.

I have been looking for plans for this work of art. I have contacted Mystic Seaport Dot Org... couple times. I hope that with the recent discovery (to me) that this boat goes by another name (Islip One Design) that they will be able to track them down. And now I see this design on their site in the library of Cox and Stevens Designs.

Does anyone know of someone scratch builting on of these since 1938? (Hopefully documented it)

I would be interested in any information pertaining to construction... materials (wood types, fasteners...), hardware, rigging and so on. (For the original or reproduction)

Also, boat "detail pictures"... close ups of parts and places not normally seen in a snapshot would be useful.

It would be great to find someone, with original brass hardware, that would be willing to have casts made (and new parts made) so the most authentic replica(s) could be constructed.

I am a west coaster... but I will be in New York City and Washington DC for about a week in the spring I might be able to break away to peek at a boat if there is an example in the area. I have a bit of vacation time in the summer... and might get out that way too.


Thanks again for the bump

[holzbt]

I've updated some links to show the plans and some more photos.

[holzbt]

Timber Point #9

[urbanboatworks@mac.com]

holzbt Great job on the restore. did you go sailing yet

[holzbt]

Timber Point #26, believed to be built 1937 or 1938 in Islip, NY.










The profile is slightly off from the originals and the centerboard is totally in the keel with no trunk above the keel as the originals had.

[johngsandusky]

Thanks Roger. #9 is a beauty. Any hope for #25?

[holzbt]

#26 is at the museum. The paperwork shows that the boat arrived with the spars and sails but I was there yesterday looking for them with no luck. The keel is so rotten the ballast keel has pulled the bolt heads through and it's hanging down several inches. It's pretty much a basket case. You might be able to re use most of the planking but I think you'd be replacing most of the rest of the boat. It would be slightly more appealing if it had the rig and sails.

[johngsandusky]

Thanks. I have enough boats to maintain and store now. It would be nice to see someone save it, but it's probably too far gone.

[holzbt]

1937 Timber Point Class newsletter. If you read the letter, 5. f. proposes raising the centerboard trunk height 6 inches. Every old timer I spoke to when I was younger mentioned that these boats has a habit of filling through the trunk and sinking while being towed. I guess this was the fix.

[wingnut247]

Wow Holzbt! Stuff like that newletter really is gold. Got any more of that kind of thing?

Also, the sail logo on number 9... is that original design?

Thank you so much.

[holzbt]

This is scanned from the 1961 SBCC yearbook. The original was quite small so the clarity is a bit lacking but the original coaming layout can easily be seen.

[holzbt]

Scanned from 1958 SBCC yearbook.