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Thread: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

  1. #1
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    Default Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    I'm trying to get my nerve up to do something that I think is seldom seen in the US.
    Suggestions, examples, encouragement please.

    My neighbor in Brittany for a bit in 2008:
    The draft on this boat was about 2.5 meters and often a couple of workers would be wandering about on her as she sat on the bottom without concern.



    From WBF thread:


    'www.yachtlegs.co.uk'

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    A lot more common in the UK, where 'boat legs' are a fine and longstanding (ar ar ar) tradition. We've had some previous threads on this topic with interesting posts.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    I've done this with Goblin, 12ton Alden 43' centreboard schooner with a 4'-6" draft and with Granuaile, a 20 ton LFH Marco Polo - 6' draft and only 10' beam.

    Firstly, I made legs that get a good three feet higher than ground to gunnel. This was so I could use a chainplate attachmet rather than drive inevitably weaker things into the hull. It also had the advantage of making the legs a bit adjustable to accomodate any variations in either the ground or in how the legs took the ground.

    The legs, simple 4x4's, were attached by having their tops rounded such that a watch tackle could be simply lashed on.

    At the bottom of each leg I inserted a bit of iron rod to stick out a good 6 inches as a ferrel passing through crossed 2x4's that served the same purpose as the baskets on ski poles. The hole through the X needs to be larger than the rod as it's going through at an angle, but it should be small enough that the 4x4 itself shoulders happily on it. You might round this end and relieve the edges a bit for a nice fit. A short tag line between X and pole is good, mostly at the retrieval stage at the end of the job.

    So, an hour (dead minimum a half hour) after high you take the ground and get the boat oriented as you want. Push the pole's ferel through the X and sink the whole in place on the bottom. I'd recommend a little spread - a couple feet outboard of the actual line of the gunnel. Hook the watch tackles to the chain plates, put a fender horizontally between each pole and gunnel, and as the tide settles, adjust the tackles to that the boat's level and the legs are only taking a steadying strain, not holding the boat up.

    This system is easy and versitile but is not suitable for repeated tide cycles. I used it for on the tide hauls where the work could be done in one day or where I did not mind resetting the legs every other tide, sleeping for one low per day.

    I also used it when I took one of the boats up a wee tickle for the night with the plan of drying out sometime during the dark.

    G'luck

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    My mentally rehearsed game plan, if I ever stick on a falling tide and it looks like I am going to dry out is:

    1 )Tie a loop of stout line around the mast loose enough to slide and put two snap shackle blocks on it.

    2) Run an anchor rode through each block and down to the mast base.

    3) Insert two or more docklines between the rope and chain of each rode.

    4) Row each anchor out in the dinghy as far as I can each side and set them.

    5) Attach the spinnaker halyard to the sliding loop and hoist the blocks up to the spreaders.

    6) Lead the rodes to winches and tension to keep the boat upright.

    7) Pray and fret for about 12 hours.
    Roger Long

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    8) and stay on the centerline?
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    As you know, it works because all of the weight is on the keel, the legs or anchors are just to keep the boat from tipping. There really isn't that much strain on them unless things are way out of balance.
    Which comes first," someone asked Ira Gershwin, "the words or the music?" "The contract," said Gershwin.



  7. #7
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    I have also used the anchors spread from the masthead, once with Goblin. Frankly it scared me. We dragged one anchor out to the limit of 300' of chain on the weather side. The equally long nylon rode went to leeward. I ran each (line at the end of the chain) through a block on seperate halyards and back to a fleeted on the rode block on each. Hoisted the halyards and trimmed as hard as we could. Even so, between the cantery on the chain and the stretch in the nylon the thing was scary wobbly. I worried that it could reach a critical point and drag one anchor or the other.

    I happen to run aground a lot - not for nothing I'm Commador of the Kedgers' Club - and I don't worry about letting the boat bilge if I'm on something other than sharp rocks. If it's not an on-shore breeze, I just run an anchor toward shore, hoist it up the mast, and haul to ensure that she tips uphill.

    Granuaile, as you might imagine in a boat that drew 6' with only a 10' beam, was the most uncomfortable. If it was night, sleeping was really improvised against the downhill ceiling. If we wanted to eat, we'd deploy the dink and picnic ashore. Goblin bilged at about 45 degrees, perfectly livable. Marmalade bilges at a most pleasant 25 o4 30 degrees, downright pleasant.

    There are boats where this is not a good idea. They lay over so far that as the water drops it gets over the combing or downfloods through a hatch or porthole. But for most boats, absent rocks and surf, it's just a nap.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    I have also used the anchors spread from the masthead, once with Goblin. Frankly it scared me.
    My boat has such a wide flat keel that it will pretty much sit upright on it's own. Here's a picture of one:



    This was in NC. My worry with the Maine tides is that she will fully dry out and then fall over. The keel is so wide, I might need an anchor set out just to heel her enough to lay down. As long as I'm doing that, I might as well try to hold her up. If she did fall over, the dragging anchor ought to at least cushion the fall.
    Roger Long

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    I want to be sure I understand Andrew's usage in "ALWAYS set the legs whilst the tide is still making."

    Whatever else, you do not want to take the ground at the top of the tide.

    I take the ground after high, while the tide is dropping.

    I am guessing that Andrew preferrs to position the boat with three or so anchors and then settle into place. In this case, it does make sense to position while the tide is rising so you get just so.

    This might be expecially useful if you have made a grid - which might be not much more than a couple of weighted logs laid athwarships of the vessel's resting place - to keep the keel from sinking deeply into the mud.

    I'm not known for such patience and where I've wanted a grid, I just pushed the logs under and guyed them to stay about right when we hit the dirt.

    It may depend on local conditions. When I take the ground deliberatly to do some work, it's in places with lots of room and it really didn't matter if I had to position myself with any exactitude. If you're in a narrow crowded tickle, it's another matter.

    Do not count on the legs if it's really soft mud and you're using a grid. Unless you land the legs on the grid, there will be trouble even with a biggish ski pole basket on the ends of the legs.

    If no grid, the chances are the keel and the legs will have similar levels of sink down. Point is, you always need some sort of basket on the end of each leg and it's a problem if it's too small or so weak that it breaks and folds under the strain.

    The strength issue is why when making a 2x4 X type basket, I lay them one over the other, not notched together. The notch is a weak spot.

    G'luck

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    Hope this pic works. This is laid out for a stuffing box repair. With the gentle slope of the beach helping, we're at a pleasant 15 degrees. The bilge at this point is on the bottom.

    http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs180...._7666934_n.jpg

    OK Emily, obviously I have a step to learn for the pic to simply appear here and not a click away.
    Last edited by Ian McColgin; 01-21-2010 at 12:03 PM. Reason: Question to my PhotoGuru

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    Hey Ian,

    We watched 'Golden Boys' last night. Not bad. Hemingway and Carradine had some chemistry!

    We were guessing they couldn't film earlier in the fall because of summer business. It looked cold in many of the scenes.
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    Here's the photo Ian.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    Thanks bunches for the feedback so far. This posting is mostly about getting up my nerve to use LEGS and the responses are very helpful. Legs have been on my list for along time and with what with the falling economy, the rapid demise of reasonably priced haul out facilities and the desire to travel and be self sufficient, well you get the picture....

    Another source: (James Baldwin)


    ATOM articles: http://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/articles.htm
    Give boat legs: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-m...some-legs.html
    Last edited by George Ray; 01-21-2010 at 12:50 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    I have a photo taken of my Dad, long before I was on this Earth. He is standing beside his about 30 ft knockabout sloop , high and dry, held upright with lines to something, port and starboard. He needed to do some work on the bottom. It can be done, but be careful.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ahp View Post
    He needed to do some work on the bottom. It can be done, but be careful.
    I wouldn't recommend the anchor method for a planned haul out but, if you aren't carrying legs (and I don't know where I would put them on my boat), it may be better than laying down on an unknown bottom in a grounding emergency.
    Roger Long

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    ALWAYS set the legs whilst the tide is still making.
    Now, if you do THAT, musn't you count on the next tide being equally high? Not that I've ever used legs, but I have grounded. It would seem waiting for the water to go a bit would provide some wiggle room. No?
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    uffa fox did it with a 60 ft gaff cutter , sorceress, a tree one side, an anchor the other, without legs

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I agree with Ian - ropes from the masthead are "not on". Far too much stretch.
    Prezactly!

    I tried it (once!) with my Gazelle. She got a tad out of balance and the anchor rode just stretched (very quickly it stretched!) and the boat went splat, chine down in the soft mud. No damage except to my pride.

    Before I released the rode I sighted up the unstayed mast and saw it was about 3 feet out of column at the top. When I had all but the last wrap off the cleat the tension ripped the line out of my hand to the tune of a swarm of angry wasps.
    Goat Island Skiff and Simmons Sea Skiff construction photos here:

    http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w...esMan/?start=0

    and here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/37973275@N03/

    "All kings are not the same."

  20. #20

    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    A slight side question..... doesn't any one fit boats with the plates anymore? My dad had an old Lachance bros cruiser from Trois Riviere that had two plates installed slightly above the waterline that took the tide legs. The legs were such that they floated up and could be removed when the tide came in. On that boat they were galvanized with a slot for the legs, and backed in behind with what was really a large butt block.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    Hull fittings like that were always more common in Europe where the boats dry out every day, the boat can be moored in a regular place with a more or less level bottome allowing for the legs to be fixed, and the legs can take care of themselves through the tide cycles. That's why those systems show guys from the gunnel to near the bottoms of the legs - keep them aligned fore and aft.

    The system of attaching at the chainplates is more flexable regarding the bottom, easier to improvize (I've used booms), and does not involved screwing an ugly plate on the boat. You don't need guys since you plant the poles on the ebb as the boat takes the ground.

    The disadvantage is that it's good for only one tide unless you do some additioal rigging. Unlike the plate attachment which only needs guys fore and aft, a leg tied to the chainplates needs some attention athwartships to keep it from swinging away when the boat's floating.

    G'luck

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Careening "Standing Upright" ??

    The use of "Legs" is very common here, and even more so in Brittany. Here many boats spend the whole winter beached on legs.
    The most common method of attachment is a hole through the topsides into which the leg is bolted, the hole may go through to a pad or bearer on the inside of the hull which is fixed under the beam shelf to spread the load.On the outside the hole can be in a plate let in to the topsides which can be threaded to accept a plug used when the legs are not fitted, or in smaller boats a cork often suffices. Chainplate attachment is also used.
    Many cruising boats carry their legs around with them for use in out of the way places such as the Scilly Isles or drying harbours.The legs usually have a pad on the botton to avoid penetration.

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