Systems education: where to get it?

[sc2]

I am in the San Francisco area and am starting a search for inexpensive educational resources in the field of marine systems installation and servicing focusing on electricity and hydraulics, not including engine mechanics, which I see as a separate specialty. My goal is to become employed in the field.

I think that I may have tried a thread like this this a while back?, but I've been distracted and without a computer for a while. Now I am seriously looking to get going on this and am considering both online and classroom instruction (federal financial aid is necessary for the classroom option), the thing is that I need to decide soon on a plan of action, the best route to a satisfying job. I feel that surveying would be a worthy addition to round out my education, but not an end in itself.

I have some training in boatbuilding both wood and glass, and have decided that systems is the field that will make best use of my abilities and give the results that I seek: to start out in someone's shop, and eventually to live on a cruising sailboat and take my business with me.

All advice is most welcome.

Thanks,

sc2

[jim shula]

It's at the opposite end of the country from where you are, but here's the link anyways:
http://www.landingschool.edu/MarineSystems.html

[sc2]

Thanks Jim, but Landing's not in my budget. IYRS is interesting, the cost of housing in Newport is prohibitive. I attended The Boat School in Maine for 3 semesters then decided that systems was where the money is and that it would fit well with my natural technical orientation. At present I am unemployed and any kind of cross country move would be very difficult. Online learning is something that I have to consider for financial reasons.

sc2

[TimH]

Do you think thats the best way to make money in the marine business? I used to do wood and glass work but always felt electrical systems was the way to make money.

Skagit Valley College here has a certificate program in it. I might take a few classes that will help me make some cash once I am living aboard and bouncing from place to (tropical) place.

[sc2]

When I was in boatbuilding school our class visited several boatyards in Maine and I asked a foreman at one place which trades pay the best. He said "mechanics and electricians".

I don't feel qualified to say that one aspect of the marine trades is the best in any way, but I believe that to make money you have to go where the money is. My idea is to work for the guys who've got some- the owners of luxury yachts, and I suppose that some owners of successful commercial vessels might also like to add some devices to improve their seafaring experiences. Most of these people I'm referring to will of course have longstanding relationships with shipyards and boatshops so I want to get the training to become employed at those places, where I will gain invaluable experience and also be in a position to hear about cruising boats for sale cheap.

[mmd]

I suspect that you aren't going to be too pleased with my reply; however, here's my thoughts after a quarter century of boat building, boat designing, and boat shop management: Go get a related trade, then do the boatyard thing.

Go take a community college/trade school/whatever program in plumbing, pipefitting, industrial electrics, or electronics so that you have something finite to offer a shipyard. Once employed, suck up every bit of information you can from the craftsmen around you, from sub-contractors, and equipment suppliers. Ask your employer to sponsor you to courses offered by ABYC. What yacht yards and cruising sailors need is flexibility in skills, so take every opportunity to learn what is available to you. In a large yacht yard, the most in-demand guy is the guy who can run wires and install electronics.

While I have been typing this I have been thinking about what the skills were of the guys I most liked having work for me. While diesel mechanics seems to be most prominent, and electrical/electronics seems to be the most in demand at the yards I ran, the people I first went to when a problem arose or when things had to hurry up were guys who know a bit of mechanics, a bit of wood/metal/glass skill, a smattering of electrical, etc. But they all knew how to weld and fit pipes.

When I ran a boatshop in the southern Caribbean, the one skill that was in very short supply was someone who could weld & finish stainless steel. Railings and fitting were always getting bent and broken and there were precious few around who could repair them. We'd wait weeks sometimes for a welder.

Just sayin'...

[Todd D]

If you would consider moving to Washington state, then it would be worthwhile to try to get into the apprentice program at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. They pay you for a 40 hour week and there is a job as a journeyman waiting for you when you graduated. It is a good program. If you finished their electrician or electronics program you would definitely be able to get work in the commercial marine field if you had any desire to leave the shipyard. Trades work at PSNS pays very well.

[Todd D]

Here is the link for the PSNS apprentice program. http://www.navsea.navy.mil/shipyards...ntTrainee.aspx

This program is a very good deal since it pays all school costs AND $33K per year to start.

[paladin]

I have found that weenies on the big luxery boats were the worst for paying the bills. I did that in the Caribbean for a while, and some chartering. They always wanted something done right then, and then give you a bounced check...after a few of those I always asked up front for cash and if they said I'll get it tomorrow or the next day at the bank, I told them to give me a call then. I carried a lot of normal spares with me and if they were used they had to be replaced. The name brand boatyards that had rental/charter boats were the second worse for getting paid....their excuse was we have to wait until the owners pay us but we need the work done now so we can charter the boat.....

[sc2]

Go get a related trade, then do the boatyard thing.

In a large yacht yard, the most in-demand guy is the guy who can run wires and install electronics.


Just sayin'...

This is what I'm talking about. If there is no other way then I will do the industrial electrician route, if I find a program that looks good.

How can I be sure that I get the right training?, that is my question.

Seems like someone should have a straight up marine electrician/electronics program. The naval shipyard thing actually sounds real good to me, if I could get in. Can't tell from the app. what the actual requirements are, never heard of that test before, and some youthful indiscretions might keep me out anyway.

[sc2]

I have found that weenies on the big luxery boats were the worst for paying the bills. They always wanted something done right then, and then give you a bounced check...

Well that's certainly something to think about. Thanks for the advice.

I guess to get started what I really want to do is to get a job installing electrically powered equipment at a boatbuilding shop, and am looking for the quickest and cheapest way to do that. Once I get my foot in the door then the path to advanced training will be revealed.

[mmd]

sc2, the right training is a hazy target; if being the electrical/electronic installation guy is your target, what you need is a firm foundation in basic electrical theory, knowledge of AC & DC electrical systems, a knolwdge of basic electronics, and a smattering of information about PLC's. There may well be a school 'out there' that teaches all of this in a single program, but I don't know of any. Most get their knowledge in increments, using the ABYC Certification Program as the final polish on their qualifications. I woud look for a program in industrial electrician or electronics technology as your first step, then find work in a yard and start taking the ABYC courses and certifications while you work.

I don't know of any single 'silver bullet' programs...

[sc2]

mmd, Thanks for your comments. I guess that I will ask the guys who teach at the local community colleges about non marine-specific courses, but will continue my online search til I think I've exhausted the possibilities there.

[AstoriaDave]

mmd, Thanks for your comments. I guess that I will ask the guys who teach at the local community colleges about non marine-specific courses, but will continue my online search til I think I've exhausted the possibilities there.

MMD is giving you the straight dope here. I am a retired longtime community college instructor (chemistry, and physics allied to technical fields) who watched the evolution of technical programs over the last 30 years ... and you have to be very picky in selecting a program and a school.

With the fight for warm bodies in colleges at every level these days, it is a rare program which has the close ties to industry and which maintains the standards those industries demand. The best route is to get employed as a journeyman electrician-- even as an apprentice you will have a positive cash flow -- and "grow" into the ultimate profession you are after.

At the end of the day, where you end up will depend more on the innate problem solving aptitude you have, and not something you will learn in school. Note this is a longtime teacher saying this; you won't learn the most critical stuff in school.

If it turns out you can't cut it where your heart says you want to be, then taking the apprentice route will guarantee you'll have a career and bucks coming in the door, in any case.

As MMD says ... "just sayin' here"

[TimH]

So how much does a marine electronics installer actually make these days anyway?

I am thinking of taking some classes and getting certified just for a way to bring in some cash while cruising. From what Chuck said you want to see the cash before even getting started.

But considering your average community college course here is $500 and you will need more than a handful of courses to get certified, is it worth it?

If you plan on making your living doing this thats one thing, but just as a side thing...hmm

Also what about getting bonded and/or insured? How much is that? What happens if something fries and the customer thinks its your fault. What if it IS your fault?

So many questions

[BarnacleGrim]

Have you considered working at sea? We just had an electrician cadet sign off last week.

I'm not quite sure about the future of shipyards. There will always be repair yards, but newbuildings seem to come more and more from Asia.

Either way, any decent money will be in commercial shipping, not yachts.

[mmd]

So how much does a marine electronics installer actually make these days anyway?

That depends on how good you are, how much experience you have, what qualifications you have, where you work in the world, and what size boats you work on. All things considered, and from my perspective from a commercial shipyard in north-east North America, I would expect to pay you about $25,000 per year when you start fresh out of community college, and about double that when you have seven or more years experience, know high- and low-voltage AC & DC systems, can program PLC's, and have ABYC certification.

I am thinking of taking some classes and getting certified just for a way to bring in some cash while cruising.

It is very difficult to get the required experience from merely taking a few courses and "cruising around". You need to pay your dues in the trenches. I wouldn't hire you to do work for me without your having a history at someplace that you worked full-time at. Think of it this way - would you hire some guy who just drove into town with a toolbox in the back of his truck to do engine work on your car because he took a few courses at the local college, but has never worked as a mechanic? Sorry; there's no "easy road".

But considering your average community college course here is $500 and you will need more than a handful of courses to get certified, is it worth it?

If you want a career, definitely. If you are just chipping, not likely.

Also what about getting bonded and/or insured? How much is that? What happens if something fries and the customer thinks its your fault. What if it IS your fault?

Nobody will bond or insure you without education, experience, and certification. Even with those in-hand, bonding and insurance is expensive. Early in your career it is best to work for someone else who is bonded and insured. When you have a few certificates on the wall and a few years of working in the trenches behind you, then you can consider striking out on your own and look for B&I. Without all of the above, your best bet is to be honest with your clients and tell them up-front that you are not bonded nor insured. Some will accept the risk, some will walk; that's life.

It's all about paying dues, and it ain't just applicable to musicians...

[willmarsh3]

...when you start fresh out of community college, and about double that when you have seven or more years experience, know high- and low-voltage AC & DC systems, can program PLC's, and have ABYC certification.

Michael, when you say "program PLC's" are you referring to this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program...gic_controller

[mmd]

Yup; them are the critters. Many shipboard systems use PLC's to control their operation, and large yachts with complex environmental controls are rife with them.

[TimH]

I paid my dues working in marinas 20 years ago for 25k
Thats why i went back to school and got out of it.

Probably best just to save up before hand and not even think about working once I am on my trip.

[mmd]

Sorry, TimH; I confused you with one of our younger members for a moment.

If you are planning to go to the Caribbean or South Pacific, take a course in TIG welding, buy a good portable (bench) welder, and practice welding stainless tubing. A good stainless welder is always in demand, and they don't ask for credentials...

[TimH]

Sorry, TimH; I confused you with one of our younger members for a moment.

If you are planning to go to the Caribbean or South Pacific, take a course in TIG welding, buy a good portable (bench) welder, and practice welding stainless tubing. A good stainless welder is always in demand, and they don't ask for credentials...

Now that might be a good plan. I will look into it.
Thanks MMD

[SV Papillon]

If you have a background or education in a marine school, you may want to consider trying to get on a boat as a unlicensed engineer or oiler. I work in the AK factory trawler fleet, provided you have no ideological objection to the work, it is a great opportunity to get a education in most of the above items. Technicians and engineers are in short supply, most of the originals were from europe and alot are retiring. There used to be a suppply of interested people who wanted to work there way up from the prossecor pool but the general pop of processors tend to be recent immigrants who are career processors now.

On our boat a entry level oiler or tech would be exposed to all of the following or more:

Electrical power generation, Electronics PLCs integrated automation, Refrigeration, Welding(tig, mig, stick), Diesel opreration and repair, Low pressure and High pressure hydraulics, reverse osmosi plants 300 ton per day, etc etc etc

For someone who wants to learn it can be a good opportunity, plus you get paid and have no living expenses. I never recommend individuals for my employer however I would be happy to PM you a list of good companies to work for.

Jake

[seedy]

If you want to see what offshore is like, this might be a good place to start. http://sailopo.com/

I also kinda wonder whether just going out there and learning to troubleshoot firsthand during deliveries might give you a bit of seasoning that no class can offer. Not saying certain skills and classes aren't important, saying that this might be a way to make a connection that you wouldn't otherwise make, while learning what can happen from the client point of view.

[sc2]

... and you have to be very picky in selecting a program and a school.

**************************************************
The best route is to get employed as a journeyman electrician-- even as an apprentice you will have a positive cash flow

**************************************************
you won't learn the most critical stuff in school.



As MMD says ... "just sayin' here"

Thanks, Astoria Dave-

I agree with all of that: 1. a careful, well informed choice of college programs is essential ( I've been to enough CC's to know that they vary from mediocre to excellent); 2. to be accepted as an apprentice electrician would be a great start; and 3. I figured the school part is just to get the job, advancing after that is a whole different thing.

I've been out of work, and this area is lagging behind most of the country as far as job creation, so while I think I will give the IBEW a call ( I joined when I had a job installing telephone and data lines) I'm not getting my hopes up for the apprentice thing yet.

I talked to WyoTech in Daytona today, that's a marine mechanics program. It's not what I really want- but according to the guy I spoke with there is a considerable amount of electrical/electronics included and of course it is all marine oriented. I don't see myself working on engines for the rest of my life, but if there isn't a focused electrician program then maybe this would be the best way to get into the industry? According to the financial aid people there I could do it, but it's a huge decision due to the amount of debt I'd end up with.


P.S. I wish I knew how to use multiple quotes in one reply so I could answer everyone at once.

[sc2]

If you want to see what offshore is like, this might be a good place to start. http://sailopo.com/

I also kinda wonder whether just going out there and learning to troubleshoot firsthand during deliveries might give you a bit of seasoning that no class can offer. Not saying certain skills and classes aren't important, saying that this might be a way to make a connection that you wouldn't otherwise make, while learning what can happen from the client point of view.

Yes. I love to travel and this would be good. They do pay crew, not just the skipper, on deliveries? Not that I wouldn't go anyway if I could afford to.

How much experience on the water is needed?

[Hwyl]

P.S. I wish I knew how to use multiple quotes in one reply so I could answer everyone at once.

Hit the quotation mark thingy in the first post and the the quote when you get to the last post.

[sc2]

Hit the quotation mark thingy in the first post and the the quote when you get to the last post.

Sorry I don't quite see what you mean, I don't have much experience with this stuff and I kinda need to be led through this one keystroke at a time.

[Hwyl]

Sorry I don't quite see what you mean, I don't have much experience with this stuff and I kinda need to be led through this one keystroke at a time.

See the three Icons at the bottom right of this post, one says quote and the one next to it has quotation marks, big versions of these".

Well if you want to quote 4 posts, you hit the quotation marks in the first 3 and the quote mark for the fourth. It's easy, but does not always work, you are overthinking it.

The other thing you can do is cut and paste what you want to quote.

[Hwyl]

Hit the quotation mark thingy in the first post and the the quote when you get to the last post.

Sorry I don't quite see what you mean, I don't have much experience with this stuff and I kinda need to be led through this one keystroke at a time.

Like that

[sc2]

Ok, I got it, I wasn't logged in when I first looked at the icon(s).

[BarnacleGrim]

If you have a background or education in a marine school, you may want to consider trying to get on a boat as a unlicensed engineer or oiler.

That's great if you just want to see what life at sea is like. But as a career plan I'd recommend against it. More and more unlicensed positions are given to Filipinos, and working up the ranks just takes too long. A nautical academy can give you a valuable head start towards chief engineer, even if that involves doing mechanical work as well.

[seayou7]

There is an organization in your area teaching sailing and cruising. Might find a job swabbing decks till they need your hidden talents. Check out www.ocsc.com.

[TimH]

canvas work seems like something that would be in demand also. Sailors always need canvas work of some sort done.

[AstoriaDave]

canvas work seems like something that would be in demand also. Sailors always need canvas work of some sort done.

That's one side of the equation. Out here, it is a tough proposition to make a go of it. The investment in decent equipment is substantial, as you need to be able to bend tubing, as well as have good sewing machines. We have a history of three failed canvas operations locally, within the last ten years.

[TimH]

Ok, so I need a tig welder, a sewing machine, and a tube bender

Better start thinking of a larger boat

[willmarsh3]

We had a lady here who did canvas work. She did a really good job on my sail cover. I had to wait 4 months for her to get to it because she was in such great demand.

[sc2]

There is an organization in your area teaching sailing and cruising. Might find a job swabbing decks till they need your hidden talents. Check out www.ocsc.com.

I just finished requesting their brochures, thanks seayou7.

canvas work seems like something that would be in demand also. Sailors always need canvas work of some sort done.

I agree that custom canvas work should be lucrative, if one could afford the equipment and had the skill.
I heard when I was at school in Maine that there was a shortage of sailmakers and lofts.

And thanks to Hwyl for showing me how to use multiple quotes.

[rbgarr]

http://www.marinetech.org/about/index.php