Nominations for best 12' sailing dinghy design

[keyhavenpotterer]

Johnw, thanks for that. What a nice rule, and what fun it would be to design new boats to it.

Interesting that the requirements to sail, row and tow well lead to such a fast dinghy in strong winds.

Our local Scows were also designed as tenders to the large yachts which anchored off Lymington River, before the River was dredged. They too had to have spars which stowed in the hull. Shame our Scows did not also have the planing ability!

Brian

[johnw]

There is some argument about whether a Penguin will plane. It will when you tow it, which important in a tender.

[Peter Belenky]

The original ad hoc frostbite dinghy assembly diverged into several classes for racing. Class A (with the skegs) had to row, and the spars had to stow inboard. Class B was more of a racer. Then one-designs evolved, including the 10' Class D Dyer Dink, the Alden X class, the BO, the plywood Penguin, the Interclub, etc. If you go to the Interclub Dinghy site there are a few historical articles.

http://www.interclub.org/index.php

[johnw]

The Penguin was originally designed for batten seam construction in 1/4 in. mahogany. It caught on when marine plywood became available and the design proved suitable for the new material.

[Daniel Noyes]

Are there frost bite class rules around somewhere? be interesting to see the forces shaping the class boats

[keyhavenpotterer]

Johnw posted the link

http://books.google.com/books?id=Nk8...age&q=&f=false

Whilst looking at the designs of Alden X-Class Frostbite design, I noticed this rather nice design simply called 12' Dinghy.





Very sweet, quite beamy, quite a nice upturned nose like my Scow, reminds me a bit of the Cornish Cormorant from our Bursleden Blogger.



http://www.aldendesigns.com/dories-d...ers/d0542.html

Brian

[Swidm]

My nomination for best under 12' sailing dinghy is the....drumroll....next boat I am going to build! So far I have built six sub 12' sailing dingies of which I am happy with, in different ways, four of them.

1) There is Gavin Atkin's Mouseboat which is a great 8' paddling and sailing boat with wonderful stability and good V bottom performance for adults and kids alike.
2) Bateau.com's C12 which I have modified past recognition to create "Little Gem" pictured below with all the brightwork. This boat wins in my little fleet for carrying capacity and has been made into a great beach cruiser with the addition of a sleeping platform and dodger. Currently, she is getting another mast-step so I can rig her with a bowsprit and jib for a little more performance particularly low wind but choppy days.
3) My own interpretation of a 12' dory which rows and sails with 2 people onboard and works as a great tender to my bigger boat even serving to take my whole family of 4 to shore at Ft. Pickens in Florida. Enough room to sleep inside though I would beach her first.
4) My newest creation of an open-transom speedster which a flat deck for sleeping on...again onshore. Still working on the rig for this boat.

[Clinton B Chase]

Eric Risch here in West Gardner, Maine has a great just-under-12' dinghy called the Echo Bay Dory Skiff. GREAT boat. Rowed it sailed it built it a number of times. Highly recommended. See pictures here:

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/show...2&postcount=41

She'd be very fast with a standing lugsail or a larger Sprit but I'd want a quick to reef sail, so lug is best. She goes very smoothly through the water, you'd never know there was a flat bottom. When it is time to row, she is a lot of fun to row. This is a rough water boat. The designer, Eric, has done some crossings to islands offshore here in Maine and been in a squall with the boat. Very capable and easy on the eyes, and quick to build, which I appreciate in a boat more and more.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Echo Bay Dory Skiff
thanks Clint.



Brian

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Nice link John, I'll take a longer look. Hey when I checked in this time there was a pop up for "12 foot dinghy club" or some such thing - am I missing something? 12 feet is a great length with lots of possibilities.

[keyhavenpotterer]

12 feet is a great length with lots of possibilities.

My own Scow class, can illustrate just what's possible. Now I am afraid they are currently grp hulls, but they were clinker and plans are now available in epoxy clinker ply as referred to before from Selway Fisher.

These little boats are so endemic on the South Coast of the UK, one wonders what do all the other 50+ years olds race and teach their grandchildren in!

So here is a montage

Christchurch Scows, 70 Scows in their dinghy park



Lymington Scows, John started around 1985 at No 200 and is now well into 400+ numbers. There were 44 boats at last years National Championships.



Here I am pottering from Keyhaven to Yarmouth and up the river Yar.



Pictures of the trip here

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2784884...7622431684741/

Across the Solent the Yarmouth Scows like some colour



and the Beaulieu Scows have the best hull, so the new Lymington Scows was based on it



and further west, at Bosham, the Chichester Scows have a champagne party every time a new boat joins the fleet, which is now up to 70 boats having started in 2000.



So, that's a lot of sailors having a great time and passing skills onto their grand kids.

Brian

[Candyfloss]

Only 10ft 6, but a lovely little hard-chine dinghy.



Flying Ant by Kiwi John Spenser.

Sailed very competitively in Aus. Not so much in NZ.

[Daniel Noyes]

and further west, at Bosham, the Chichester Scows

Wow I would swear that was a photo on the Essex river Ma.
gues thats why they called it New England... Is Newbury England any where near you guys?

Newbury Ma.

yes thats a New England stone wall in the back ground at the edge of marsh and woods, and some bird boxes, we have these nasty biting flies called green heads that swarm during the summer

Dan

[keyhavenpotterer]

Hi Dan, Newbury is just an hour north of us. Very nice place.

Swallow Boats designed a very sweet 12' dinghy called the Trooper, but it is only available as a kit, but would be a very nice build if plans alone were made available.





http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/content/view/128/

Brian

[keyhavenpotterer]

The other new 12' design is the Cornish Cormorant, by Roger Dongray and Seashell Boats, again no plans but such a boat from plans could be really good. Possibly Vivier's plans are closest. Roger has a nack of designing boats which appeal to people and sell well. His 19' Cornish Shrimper is now at over 700 sold.

This 12' dinghy is a bit "bigger" than the Trouper and looks like it would make a super dinghy cruiser. What would be nearest with plans available. A smaller Welsford Navigator?



http://seashellboats.co.uk/cormorant-dinghy/

Brian

[Steve Paskey]

The other new 12' design is the Cornish Cormorant, by Roger Dongray and Seashell Boats, again no plans but such a boat from plans could be really good. ...
This 12' dinghy is a bit "bigger" than the Trouper and looks like it would make a super dinghy cruiser. What would be nearest with plans available. A smaller Welsford Navigator?

Welsford's Houdini is 13'2"with a beam of 5'10". Scaled down by 8%, the hull would be quite close, but with fewer chines.

[Sailing Dreams]

Selway Fisher's Petit Brise at 12'4' makes a very nice yacht tender something I hadn't realised when I first saw one - she just looked like a pretty, capable and really useful dinghy

Max

http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/20...tit-brise.html

[Eric Hvalsoe]

The other new 12' design is the Cornish Cormorant, by Roger Dongray and Seashell Boats, again no plans but such a boat from plans could be really good. Possibly Vivier's plans are closest. Roger has a nack of designing boats which appeal to people and sell well. His 19' Cornish Shrimper is now at over 700 sold.

This 12' dinghy is a bit "bigger" than the Trouper and looks like it would make a super dinghy cruiser. What would be nearest with plans available. A smaller Welsford Navigator?



http://seashellboats.co.uk/cormorant-dinghy/

Brian

This is a refreshing antidote to the agonizing thread RE Carl Cramer's rant against overpriced GRP dinghies. There you'd think the world was coming to an end. Here you seem to be portraying a healthy sailing dinghy population with good sized fleets and skills being passed on to newer generations. Admittedly Carl's thread is to some degree about marketing, wood vs grp.

[keyhavenpotterer]

The Mirror Dinghy Class is now over 70,000 sail number. It's a great boat and a huge majority of UK sailors began their sailing in one. Yet even this class has allowed things to get out of control.

Wooden kits are still available at £1500, but they now allow GRP boats produced by the finest dinghy builders in the UK. The price? £4800. This is just like the Optimist. If you want to race, then this latest super fast version will be essential. It seems wrong to me, but the Class makes it's own rules. The super keen minority I guess.

However, to me at least, this leaves a huge marketing hole that needs filling, as long as people still feel like building!

Our Scows prove 50+ year old's still like to race as long as the boat is a bit more forgiving than they may have raced when younger. However Scows are also very expensive.

I did however at a recent show, meet a number of sailors of this age who built a Mirror in their youth, carried on through bigger dinghies and yachts, but now with the kids gone and wife not so keen, were looking for something to build again. So, they have the time and money - just what is needed! Traditional looks appeal too.

Could we work up a 12' ply lug rig design. Like the PDR guys an open class but quite restricted to keep it fun.

So, 12' like a Scow but a bit more performance, (ie planing before a force 7!), but not too much.
Lug rig about 70 sq ft.
Mast no longer than hull.
Hull single chine ( the GP 14 is a very popular dinghy and is good looking on the water)
Build from plans or self jigging kit.

A new version for new materials of the Frostbite class if you would.

I can picture it in my head, very frustrating. Like the SigneT with a straight stem more traditional looks and lug rig. Perhaps a 12' Goat is closer. Iain Oughtred after all races a 29er skiff. He might be tempted if asked. And others.

Would need a restriction on minimum waterline beam to avoid all the designs ending up as lug rigged National 12's, Cherubs or foiling Moths!

Brian

[Wiley Baggins]

Uffa Fox drew a "Junior Redwing" somewhere in the vicinity of 12-feet plus, but I don't see it online anywhere. I think it had a low aspect sloop rig. The design might be worth looking at if the folks at http://www.uffafox.com/ have it tucked away somewhere.

[Steve Paskey]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Gifford Jackson's lovely, v-bottomed Marisol Skiff. Plans and book available from WB. The book on building her is a treasure, with wonderful drawings and many interesting ideas.

[Steve Paskey]

Could we work up a 12' ply lug rig design. Like the PDR guys an open class but quite restricted to keep it fun.

So, 12' like a Scow but a bit more performance, (ie planing before a force 7!), but not too much.
Lug rig about 70 sq ft.
Mast no longer than hull.
Hull single chine ( the GP 14 is a very popular dinghy and is good looking on the water)
Build from plans or self jigging kit.

A new version for new materials of the Frostbite class if you would.

That's a grand idea. Would love to see someone come up with a design and plans. I've been intrigued by the comradery of the PDR crowd, but the boat doesn't much appeal to me.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Nice You tube launch here of a Marisol Skiff. Quite deep sided. Need to get past 4 minutes to the launch though!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtrP6jXlAk0

Brian

[keyhavenpotterer]

That's a grand idea. Would love to see someone come up with a design and plans. I've been intrigued by the comradery of the PDR crowd, but the boat doesn't much appeal to me.

Thanks Steve. Just by chance the "Rant" seems to have come to the same conclusion.

So a 12' lug rig simple build.
Rules?
Sheet and a half of plywood long
Only allowed X number of sheets - would that be 4?
Central flat floor panel and two strakes per side.
Minimum width for central panel. Max and min for gunnel beam
70 ish sq ft of sail.

Group of 3 designers develop and publish the rules. Storer for the Southern Hemisphere, Oughtred for Europe and you choose for the USA!

Then we need the men already ranting about costly boats at Wooden Boat to do something and have a competition. All entries which meet the class rules would be winners.

Brian

[keyhavenpotterer]

It seems very sterile to try to define a boat in restrictive numbers. Perhaps a "Best" design has to be defined by what it brings to the sailor.
Thinking about our Scows, they bring so much to many older sailors,

companionship
fun and safe racing well into their late seventies
endless technical learning
a boat to teach grandchildren
a boat to lend to your adult kids whose busy lives allow just the two week summer holiday sailing
aesthetic pleasure of the design
joy of sailing in lovely surroundings

Perhaps the design competition could ask for these deliverables and the designers do the numbers.

Brian

[MattL]

What is that round sail in the back? Is the skipper behind the sail?

All the boats presented so far are terrific, I think choosing best would be an impossible task. Thanks for all the great photos and comments.

[Terry Haines]

If numbers count more than esthetics then it has to be the Optimist and the PDRacer. Of course, my all-time favorite TV show was "Never mind the quality, feel the width" ...

[Terry Haines]

I know, I know, but imagine getting nearly 4 hundred people to actually build one ...

[Sailing Dreams]

I posted some of my favorites from the thread on my blog -

http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/20...afternoon.html

and got a reply from Patrick about the Lynaes Dinghy

http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/20...es-dinghy.html

well worth having a look at his flickr site

max

[keyhavenpotterer]

Some pictures of the building of a 15' Lynaes dinghy here

http://vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/index.php?id=1277&L=1

It seems this little dinghy from 1820 was so sea worthy it became the father to the later famous rescue boats.







What a beauty!

Brian

[Steve Paskey]

It's a bit over 12 feet -- 12'10" to be precise -- but I'd include Joel White's Pooduck Skiff in this discussion. And it's a shame there isn't a 12-foot version of Joel's 9'7" Martha's Tender. (The MT has a v-bottom and a single chine.)
.

[Steve Paskey]

I know, I know, but imagine getting nearly 4 hundred people to actually build one ...

For anyone who's confused about this, Terry's referring to a post I deleted noting that 393 hull numbers have been issued for the PDRacer. All things considered, that's impressive!

Incidentally, according to the class web site, the Opti fleet numbers over 130,000.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Thank's Steve for including Joel White's Pooduck Skiff. I love his work, my most favourite of all designs being Lala.

Clint also likes his Shellback at 11'2". Quote "I have sailed the boat in up to 25 kts without reefing and can ghost along in a zephyr. Quite a fun little boat." Just what this thread is about.



http://www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com/8.html

Brian

[Clinton B Chase]

That shot was on Squam Lake in NH in a cove protected from the very breezy main lake. I love sailing my Shellback, using it primarily for sailing these days. The ri

[AnalogKid]

I'm not saying it's the best, but when I came to ask myself this question, I chose the Rhum by Paul Fisher. As designed it's 11'6", but I intend to increase the plotting lines from 305mm to 320mm spacing, and it'll come out pretty much bang on 12'.

For me, its all about compromises. I need a boat that's small enough to store. One that can be rowed, motored or sailed. One that can be operated in a semi-sheltered harbour or towed to other beaches or lakes on occasion. I want to learn to sail in it and fish from it. And it would be nice to have a good looking boat as well.

For the sailing experience, I was keen on the gunter rig with jib, so I can practice all the skills I'll need for a bigger boat should I ever be in the position to put a keeler on a mooring. I may also try it with a free standing balanced lug rig as a quickly rigged alternative for an after-work sail in the summer. The double chine shallow V hull seems to me to be a good compromise between the single chined, easily built stitch and tape boats ad the more graceful ply lapstrake boats that would take too long to build. Yes I want to build my own boat, but I also want to sail it.

Cheers,
Andy.

P.S. I don't think I've seen one boat on this thread that I wouldn't happily own.

[fish948]

joel whites pooduck skiff 12ft 8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEBACCkI-g

[Clinton B Chase]

Good call...that video shows off the Pooduck nicely...a better boat for getting family aboard...but cartopping becomes tougher.

Looks like the mast is nice and stiff even with the chute up!

[lvergara]

...I like the sound track on that video, no ... music, just the wind and water....

[keyhavenpotterer]

Just a thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread which has been a real pleasure to follow. We found many lovely epoxy clinker dinghies but never quite found that very special hard chine design. As a final post and suggestion:

no one from Aus posted the Gwen 12, yet what I read are stories of great affection and even that Iain Oughtred designed and campaigned a national Championship boat in his early years. This design, along with the Cherub seems to have been an important milestone in the eveoution of the lightweight modern dinghy.



Brian

[Clip]

Loved building and sailing my Selway Fisher Coble,

[Steve Paskey]

Two more designs that are worthy of mention in this thread:

First, John Welsford's "Golden Bay dinghy," a 12'9" single-chined design with a lug sail:
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...tnet/index.htm

Second, Harry Bryan's "Daisy," a 12'6" dory-skiff designed for construction in lapstrake cedar (no plywood):

www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/daisyplan.html

Here's a photo of Daisy ..

[dks71]

Thanks all for posting these great designs and pictures. I would just like to offer a hearty handshake to keyhavenpotter for posting a picture with wooden boats and a green mohawk!

[LongIslandBoy]

Gotta agree with Clint re Joel White's Shellback. Great little boat

[Clinton B Chase]

There is actually a little bit of a one-design thing going on with the Shellback. Last year, in Brooklin, was the first (hopefully annual) Shellback Nationals! There is a thread here on the subject.

I think the Shellback is great but when it comes to performance sailing it is not going to go like, say, a Gartside Riff, a true sailing dinghy. The Shellback is more of a sail-and-oar 12-footer (actually 11'2" footer). But, as I look out my window at my Shellback under about 2' of snow (just from the last two days!) I look forward to sailing it more than anything.

Cheers,
Clint

[Clinton B Chase]

There is actually a little bit of a one-design thing going on with the Shellback. Last year, in Brooklin, was the first (hopefully annual) Shellback Nationals! There is a thread here on the subject.

I think the Shellback is great but when it comes to performance sailing it is not going to go like, say, a Gartside Riff, a true sailing dinghy. The Shellback is more of a sail-and-oar 12-footer (actually 11'2" footer). But, as I look out my window at my Shellback under about 2' of snow (just from the last two days!) I look forward to sailing it more than anything.

Cheers,
Clint

[James McMullen]

Alas, I find 12' to be an awkward size for me: too big to make a convenient, stowable ship-to-shore dinghy, too cramped, slow and unseaworthy for serious open boat cruising. My two choices have boiled down to a 9' pram for the dinghy--the biggest I can fit on deck, and my 20' Rowan for a beachable yet seaworthy open sailboat than can fit a couple of people and gear for a week easy, yet still a blast to sail solo.

My favorite 12' sailboat I ever built was the Bolger Instant Catboat, but it too has its flaws--not being much for rowing home when the wind fails especially.

12' is a hard size for my useage. Why did you settle on this particular length?

[keyhavenpotterer]

With such a long list of wonderful 12' designs preceding your post James, perhaps this thread illustrates that 12' is a really popular size.

Bigger than a 9' tender, which I have and love dearly - perfect tender size - and smaller than your needs for "serious open boat cruising" 12' just makes a great day sailing size for a keen sailor who sails alone, or with less experienced crew or grandchildren.

For me it's to do with the human scale. My 90kg can keep on top of the boat choose what happens. It cannot bite me, or give me a hard time, it's not too big if it blows up.

I have raced and sailed my 11'6" Scows for eight years in everything that has come along, yet when I sail a bigger dinghy such as the Oughtred Gannet I owned, I found I would not use her if the forecast was bad, reefing is such a hassle. Being overpowered is horrible and can trap you and bite you on the bum!

By the way James, do you know anyone who has built a Gannet?

Brian

[Clinton B Chase]

I think 12' is also a great messabout size, knocking around small areas in decent weather. I also think when in a class, it'd be a great one-design size. Beam is a huge factor James....have you seen a Gartside Riff. That is a big 12'er.

[James McMullen]

I know that 12 footers are popular--I've built several myself including several that have already been mentioned here: Bolger Catboat, a Bolger Cartopper, a couple of Bolger Teals, a Chamberlain dory-skiff, the Catspaw dinghy/Columbia Lifeboat tender, two CLC Sassafrass 12 canoes. . . .plus my bro built a Shellback that I've spent quite a few hours in.

Every boat is a compromise. A 12-footer is an in-between size. What I'm saying is that the compromises of a 12-footer haven't seemed to work out for the best for myself in my own situation right now, so I was wondering what the circumstances were why the OP was particularly interested in this size? Everything from kayaks to rowboats seem to be mo' betta when you stretch 'em out to at least 16' from my experience, so I was wondering if there was a particular storage requirement or something for why the focus on 12'.

[Clinton B Chase]

Cartoppability would be a big one...the Shellback, John Brooks' Ellen -- which would make a great one designer -- and others have a beam good enough for cartopping about 4 1/2'. For rowboats, a cartopper means you really don't go vary fast because you need length but not beam, but for a sailing dinghy, like Riff, put a nice big sail on there with some beam and you can have a boat for a Dad and 2 kids to go out and still be able to store it without huge space requirements, carry it around easily (because these 12 footers are not going to weight too much) and maybe cartop it if the rack is wide enough and/or the beam is not too much. So, I would say handling on land is hugely a plus. Once you are above 12' and certainly 14' it gets difficult fast to move them around on dry land.