1/4 replica of schooner Lion of Baltimore

[Zidu]

Hallo everybody,
my name is Dusan Zitny ( Dušan Žitny ). I am from Slovakia. Its a small state in the centre of Europe withoud sea. My city called Ruzomberok its is located 20km far from the Dam Liptovska Mara ( http://www.nizketatry.sk/ciele/lmara/lmara.html )
I am completely new member here and landsman.
But world around water, ships interesting me.
I am owner in common commercially selling inflatable boat Excersion 4, which I upgraded onto sailboat with auxiliary electrical engine this year.
You can see it all on my album there :
http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...nto_The_Water/
All album how i made it you can see there:
http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...able_sailboat/

I know, its crazy, withoud wood ( just seats ) but it works.... :-)

Like that, I have a big dream to build a small wooden schooner with cabin, with two berths at size 17.-18,5 ft long with plane sail till 12m2 ( 130 square ft ) . This is a limit for unincorporated ship in homesters condition.
I know how it sounds. You can say : "next one shoonerman withoud experience...... ", yes you are right.

I am reading and teach myself what and how i can do it just therefore.

I have seen Light shooner page, ( http://www.carlsondesign.com/lscooner.html ),
Folding shooner and single handed schooner by Phill Bolger, but this Isn't that melody of what I could presented.
These light shooners haven´t cabin and surface of sails is bigger than 12m2 ( 130 square ft ).

Just FIRECREST 17'6" most meets my visualization. But its dory used playwood. It hasn´t hull made with strip planked wood.
Nice information got me Roger Long with his Pinky 17, but it´s not a schooner.

I saw these nice pictures on the internet. But nothing more.

1/4 scale the replica Lion of Baltimore:





Unknown scale the replica Little Morrissey :


And next the replica Spirit 2 ( Spirit of Enterprize ??? )


and very nice made the replica Maryland Federalist


It show me, its posibble to do it. But i have no idea what is it made inside. Drawing, plans of orginal ships not show me, what i have to do realy sailing replicas of Lion or Morrissey.

Please, have somebody from you some superior photographs with detail construction and look inside to these replicas?
Thanks for all.

Dusan

PS: all pictures of my replicas you can see on my Photobucket : http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...f%20Baltimore/

[outofthenorm]

Hello Dusan. Just to add to your dream, have a look at this link. The gallery shows some of the build photos.

Small 74-Gun ship

[peter radclyffe]

will you use slovakian oak for the framing, we used it for steamed frames, what planking, larch

[NealmCarter]

Dusan, I bought the "lion" decades ago. She was built by Peter VanDyne as a land display for the first ever boat show in Annapolis. When seen by Shaeffer (Mayor of Baltimore) at that time, a light bulb went off in his head..and he was inspired to build a full scale vessel... The Pride of Baltimore. The boat that started the hole make-a-replica "tall ship" thing. ANYHOW. I spent alot of time designing the rig thats in the boat now. I added a stainless steel centerboard, and even had a Vire inboard installed. The biggest problem I had was sailing the boat ! I`m full scale and the boat was less than 1/4 scale. If I had a crew of midgets it would have been easier. The boat was sailed under the name ~Copper Head~. I donated the vessel to the foundation that has renamed it ~Lion~, but they cant sail it at all...so its back to the original idea of being a mobile , land display ........ sorta pisses me off.

[Zidu]

.... The gallery shows some of the build photos. Small 74-Gun ship

Wow This picture got me :

I thought, that of such dreamers arent too much. How i can see, i was failing. It is a waste of, It isnt a schooner ( but very good looking small boat ) because it must to be difficult at transport.
Thanks for this link outofthenorm.

I am found this page : http://www.aqsim.Com/littleleon/ on similar model ship.

You Tube video there : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkJW7...layer_embedded
Coincidentally, its name is Little Leon , but brigantine, not schooner

[Zidu]

I spent alot of time designing the rig thats in the boat now. I added a stainless steel centerboard, and even had a Vire inboard installed. The biggest problem I had was sailing the boat ! I`m full scale and the boat was less than 1/4 scale. If I had a crew of midgets it would have been easier.........

Hmm, it sounds not good. I think the same trouble with light schooner without crews in middle part.....
Please,NealmCarter, can you give me any photos of stainless steel centerboard used on Cooper Head - (Lion )?

[paladin]

Just as a bit of information, Peter Van Dyne is a neighbor. He has not designed or built boats in a couple of decades. He owns a business making carbon fiber parts for aircraft.

[John Smith]

These are all quite fascinating. I wonder, however, when the novelty wears off, how well they sail.

I do admire those with the talent to build them.

[NealmCarter]

Paladin, The little Van Dyne double-ended schooners were great, dont you think?..I`ll bet he still has the molds.

[Steve Paskey]

Hello, Dusan: If I understand you correctly, you want a schooner with a strip-planked hull and a cabin that has a total sail area of no more than 12 square meters (130 sq. ft).

I've never seen any design that matches your description. However, I know that Paul Fisher has designed numerous strip-planked boats, and that he's very good at devising alternate rigs for his designs. I would e-mail him with your requirements and ask whether one of his existing designs can be modified to suit you.

[Zidu]

Hello, Dusan: If I understand you correctly, you want a schooner with a strip-planked hull and a cabin that has a total sail area of no more than 12 square meters (130 sq. ft)....
I would e-mail him with your requirements and ask whether one of his existing designs can be modified to suit you.

Ahoy Steve,
Yes you are right, but the size is not such critical. The larger Firecrest 17´6´´ is the most approach of my visualization.

First moment i am going to test something little, next time i will try to test a bigger project.
To increase, it is possible all the time, but reduce and abide principles of building, especially stability, it doesnt simple.
I will be very gladly if you help me with your e-mail.

There are mine comparison size various model of little schooners:


Thanks
Dušan

[Zidu]

Ahoy

With permission from Michael ,I want to share out about correspondence with him.

....You can post my answer.Regards, Mike

There you can find quantity information that are gived me answer on my questions.

09.11.2009 12:03 from Michael Bosworth
Ship´s company : http://www.shipscompany.org/musicians.html
Home page :
http://www.shipscompany.org/chantysingers.htm#sings
Boat section :
http://www.shipscompany.org/SC-Boats-D.htm

Mike wrote :

We have intent of making LION uaable for both display on land (which we do now with her) and at sea (close inshore).

She (before we adopted her) was sailed and was rigged for operation on the water.

She has a hole in her stern deck (to starboard) through which a small 5 hp long shaft outboard motor can be dropped to provide power. If using an outboard within view of the public, we'd cover the engine with an insulated box made to look like a period barrel or something....haven't made that yet, we only made a couple transits under outboard power to test.

She also has a propeller and shaft but no engine currently installed, we gave much thought to an electric propulsion (internal) iwth gas-emergency outboard power, but money limitations for the project (we have other boat projects with higher priority for us) caused us to stay with a borrowed outboard.

We altered her masts to have tabernacles, ie a sort of hinged mast at the deck, for easing the time and effort to raise and lower the masts for transporting on the road. This has been very successful and useful.

As mentioned before, we are sewing new sails, we didn't get much that was useful when we adopted her.

She has a fiberglass hull and deck, with wooden masts and spars and fittings.

She has no interior fittings for the crew....just two hatches that can be lifted up and stowed below decks for the crew to stay mostly hidden, except for their head and shoulders, to maintain the impression from a distance of a full sized schooner. These deck openings are....
between fore and main mast.....large deck hatch, and in operation we'd anticipate having one or two crew there to handle lines and raise sails.
aft of the main mast.....smaller deck hatch, for the captain, who would steer, operate the outboard, and handle the sheets for the main.

We would ballast her to an appropriate waterline, with lead if available or with concrete if lead were too expensive for us (likely)....

I don't have photos handy, but I'll look around and see what we do have, and also look for an opportunity for our unit photographer to take comprehensive photos for you. However, the display season is over for us, so new photos, if they ever come, wouldn't come until middle of next year.

Her trailer is rather tall to accomodate her hull lines. Not easy to transport by road or to launch, but possible.


12.11.2009 19:44

Dusan,

Good luck on your small schooner dream and project.

I know many of those schooners on the link you sent....

Bolger light schooner....I worked with Phil Bolger on and off on US Navy projects (3) from 2003 to 2009 (until his death a few months ago). His hard chine schooners are much easier to build (with plywood) than the other designs, and will perform well. However, out of the water they do not have a traditional rounded hull shape. For a first project, a Bolger schooner would be a good approach, especially if you preplanned that the Bolger mast and sails would eventually shift over to your ultimate 'rounded and more complex hull' schooner. This would get you on the water much sooner and cheaper.

Federalist. Owned by Alexandria Seaport Foundation orginally, but turned over to the spin-off newer organization National Maritime Heritage Foundation (NMHF) which I helped found and was a board member on for years. NMHF converted Federalist three masted sqaured rig to a two masted schooner, with much faster raising and lowering of the sail rig. That became the....

Little Spirit. I think in theory either of the two rigs can still be used, but the schooner rig is used almost exclusively because its so much easier to put up. Like the Lion, there are no interior bunks or outfitting....just an operating cockpit.

Lion. Already spoke about her. I am no longer active with NMHF, concentrating on Ship's Company which owns and operates....
- Resolution II. 50ft traditional wooden hulled schooner, eight berths.
- Lion. Fiberglass hulled, wooden spars, quarter scale replica of Pride of Baltimore I (the one that sank, and was replaced by current, larger Pride of Baltimore II). You can see my friend Steven Lampredi who works on and operates the Lion....she is kept at a small museum in Fells Point, Maryland.
- two ship's boats....14ft Jollyboat and 16ft Chester Yawl. Both are primarily for rowing (each have four oars) but Jollyboat also has a lugsail ketch rig and can be sailed....we might make a sail rig for the Chester Yawl this winter. My friend Steve Jones and I built the Chester Yawl from a Chesapeake Light Craft kit this past year.

There is enough room below decks for a tight low berth or two....however, not enough height below a flush decked schooner of this size for even sitting headroom.....you'd have to have a cabin trunk or higher hatch cover to gain sitting room, I think.

Our intention is to eventually get Lion back to being either a land display (which we can do now) or a sailing display (which we are working on...mostly Steven Lampredi). The delay in doing so is due to lack of funding and the fact that Ship's Company has other projects (Resolution, Chester Yawl).

You can post my answer.

Regards,

Mike

Other pages :

The search for The Lion of Baltimore
http://www.mahsnet.org/projects/lob/img0.html
http://bannekerdouglassmuseum.blogsp...baltimore.html


Once more thank you Mike.

I shall patiently to wait for photographs.



Zidu/ Dušan

[Timo_N62.9_E27.7]

Dusan,

here is another alternative:


It is a schooner by Paul Riccelli, 18´3" LOD, 14´11" LWL. I have recently received the plans and I am just starting the build. I think this is the smallest schooner there is with a cabin. The sail area is 207 sqft, that is 18.6m2 for us in Europe .

I will be building epoxy glued clinker but Paul has a strip planked version as well.

[outofthenorm]

Dusan, where did the 20 ft Lynx Replica plan come from. Do you have a link?

- Norm

[Zidu]

Dusan, where did the 20 ft Lynx Replica plan come from. Do you have a link? - Norm

@outofthenorm : it´s my little mistake. It shows you real plan of Lynx reduced to 20 ft. Replica of Lynx ( or similar schooners Lion, Pride of Baltimore II, Morrissey ....) are my dream only...

More about Lynx and it´s ( his ) drawing plans you can find there :
Home page of Privateer Lynx : http://www.privateerlynx.com/
Photo gallery : http://www.privateerlynx.com/sail/photogallery.html
Drawing : http://www.privateerlynx.com/begin/design_pd.html
Lynx video trailer : http://www.privateerlynx.com/sail/index.html

Pride of Baltimore II
Home page : http://www.pride2.org/index.php
You can buy Pride Of Baltimore II Plans (6 Sheets) MSPL2120 $33.99 from Shipways for a model of Pride of Baltimore 1:64 Scale (MS2120).
http://www.historicships.com/Plans/PlansMenu.htm

There you can see other nice schooners : Prince de Neufchatel, Bluenose, Elsie, Drapper Tom, Newsboy, Sultana....
http://www.historicships.com/TALLSHI...ipwaysMenu.htm

But be careful, so you can easy fall in love with these marvellous shapes of privateers like me....

Dušan

[Zidu]

It is a schooner by Paul Riccelli, 18´3" LOD, 14´11" LWL. I have recently received the plans and I am just starting the build.

Wow, it sounds nice Little bit more than 12m2 but good idea.
Can you show more from your build ?
Please give me link to Paul Riccelii plans, I have big trouble to find it on google...

[Roger Long]

I just remembered this boat and can't believe no one has pointed you to it yet:

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sa...ceOakland.html

I understand your problem on the size having helped someone in your part of the world get approval to build this boat:

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/Boats.htm#Macumba

Those of us on this side of the big pond don't appreciate enough our freedom in this regard. American readers, just think if you could not build a boat over 18 feet in length without submitting the plans to the U.S. Coast Guard for approval just as is done with commercial craft.

In the case of the skipjack, I sent a letter saying that is was a near replica of the boats used to dredge for oysters year round for decades and therefore should be safe for lake boating when not towing an oyster dredge over the side. This letter sent in along with a copy of the plans secured the necessary approval but this might not work with every country or even with a different inspector in the same country. It was also dependent on my design being very close to the traditional type.

[outofthenorm]

And speaking of Atkin, there is also Pocahontas.

Link to Pocahontas - Atkin

[Zidu]

@Roger Long. >thanks, i know this Oakland. It´s nice, good, but little bit bigger than i need. But his cabin ( especialy, larger cabin shows, how it possible to do )
I scared to interfere in strukture ( clipped in LOA ) whether make him smaller. It can completely turn his nautical facilities with these changes.

I saw Macumba too. It was first time i wrote to you. Very much like Macumba is schooner Pogo. But he has an open cockpit.
http://georgebuehler.com/pogo.html

Those of us on this side of the big pond don't appreciate enough our freedom in this regard. American readers, just think if you could not build a boat over 18 feet in length without submitting the plans to the U.S. Coast Guard for approval just as is done with commercial craft........

@outofthenorm> can you explain how it possible to make ships like 74 gun ship ? What limits are in UK ? Has The HMS Belleisle her own register number ?

[Timo_N62.9_E27.7]

Dusan,

my build is still in the starting phases, nothing to show yet

[Zidu]

Ahoy,
on the gad with internet I reinvented this interesting page :
http://daisygracebaycruiser20no1.blogspot.com/

The progress of builing Daisy Grace ( http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/content/view/156/ ) showed me interesting decision and at the same time give me a message to another and more interesting page :
http://sailingmargherita.blogspot.com/

Beautiful lines of Shilling ( Margherita ) voodoo me in like manner how privateer Lynx.
Shilling ( Margherita) has quite proper cabine for two adult persons close her size 17 ft LOD. Propably for three therein unfeatured example. Her Interior outfit is poor, but with dimension 17 ft LOD it is fair.
I think, won't be till such a basic problem to change her rigging from gaff rigged cutter to shooner looks in like manner how Firecrest 17 ft 6'' with flat sail 130 square feet.

Shilling (Mergherita) SPECIFICATIONS
LOD 17' 00" (5.22m)
LOA 20' 03" (6.18m)
Beam 6' 06" (2.00m)
Draught plate up 12" (0.37m) plate down 3' (0.92m)
Sail Area 168 sq.ft. (15.60 sq.m.)
Trailing weight approx. 1165 lbs. (530 Kgs)


The only big problem with semi replica of Lynx ( Pride of Baltimore, Lion..... ) will be his low heigth above water-line.
Unfortunately, to receive high trunk shape of Shilling in such way deeply into water, it will be difficult, maybe impossible.
I will try to re-count possible of water ballast tanks, but it can be way to hell. I can find inspiration with Daisy Grace and her water ballast tanks.

Im going to do first step - to book The study plans of Shilling, showing main construction details :
http://www.willowbayboats.co.uk/prices.htm

In conclusion, you can appreciate those royal lines :
















Zidu/Dusan

[dld]

America Junior
The overall length of this little packet is 25 feet 8 inches; the water line length, 21 feet 6 inches; the breadth, 8 feet 6 inches, and the draft, 3 feet 3 inches
Plans for America Junior are $125
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sa...icaJunior.html

[Zidu]

America Junior ... is 25 feet 8 inches....

Thanks dld, i know this great plan. Atkin has good idea how to do. This Junior is sharpie and little bit larger, but still beautiful...