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Thread: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

  1. #1

    Default Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Back in the 1990s I lived in Europe and I bought a magazine that I believed was British in origin that had as a bonus for that month, a folding paper model of Nigel Irens' Western Skiff. I stretched it into a full size version and built several with my friend Todd Kirkland in Key West in the late 90s.,using the stitch and glue method with Brunzeel and epoxy.The boat was a huge hit, gorgeous and fast.

    I would give someone a hundred dollars for that magazine today!
    Wish I even knew what the name of it was, internet searches have proved fruitless..

    Anybody know what magazine that was?
    Anybody have line drawings or plans?

    I have tried several times over the years to get Nigel Irens to answer my emails, but that hasn't yielded anything...

    I would really appreciate some help on this...I see where some guy in France sells kits or used to, but I don't want a kit,I already know how to build one..
    Thanks, Scott Church

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Why don't you try contacting all the magazines that could be the right one? You might find someone who knows, before you even find the magazine, it being a small world and all....

  3. #3

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Thats the problem, you cant just google "obscure british boating magazines of the 1990s", really have spent literally hundreds of hours trying to chase down this magazine, I know its not Classic Boat..and I'm about 99 percent sure it wasn't Water Craft...
    Last edited by NigelIrensWesternSkiff; 10-18-2009 at 05:18 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!


  5. #5

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    looks like it says information is available from wooden boat magazine, some french version of wooden boat magazine....hmmmm anybody know whats up?? I know that the magazine I bought back in the day wasn't called Bateaux Bois..how much is twenty four thousand francs in euros? yikes, this must be an old ad..
    Last edited by NigelIrensWesternSkiff; 10-18-2009 at 05:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Don't you think the decent thing would be to contact Nigel Irens himself and buy the plans?

    http://www.nigelirens.com/

    Brian

  7. #7

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    If you had read carefully you would know that I have made many attempts to contact Mr. Irens regarding the Western Skiff, I've been to his website many times and theres no mention of the Western Skiff anywhere...
    I would gladly give Mr.Irens whatever he wants for the plans, he is just understandably way too busy with multimillion dollar oceangoing yacht projects to worry about this little skiff I guess..
    Last edited by NigelIrensWesternSkiff; 10-18-2009 at 01:38 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Perhaps Ed Burnett?

    http://www.burnettyachtdesign.co.uk/

    Brian, with appologies

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Good suggestions, I just now noticed that theres a mobile phone number listed on Nigel's website, I'm going to try to call him tomorrow..
    I appreciate the help, folks!
    -Scott

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Found it on first page of a Google search:

    http://www.payhost.net/modelling/aca...uary_2001.html

  12. #12

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Well, this wasn't the same magazine that I got it from originally..
    BUT.. it will do, absolutely this will do...thanks

    Now, does anyone out there have a copy of Marine Modeller from January 2001 they would like to donate?
    -Scott
    Last edited by NigelIrensWesternSkiff; 10-18-2009 at 05:46 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    is it Chasse Maree
    Boat Designer. Boatbuilder

  14. #14

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    ive just done a search,
    chasse maree bateaux bois nigel irens
    the western skiff is there
    Boat Designer. Boatbuilder

  15. #15

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    bateaux bois magazine maybe wooden boat mag
    so maybe it was an agreement between them
    or another w b mag
    Boat Designer. Boatbuilder

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    This site has lots of info

    http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...n-GBGB291GB303
    Says plans are available from Chasse-Maree

    http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...n-GBGB291GB303

    Brian

  17. #17

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    The magazine you're thinking of is Classic Boat magazine:

    http://www.classicboat.co.uk/cb/home.htm

    They commisioned the design from Nigel Irens. If I remmber correctly, the boat was never provided as a set of plans. It was sold as a CNC cut kit through the magazine. They advertised it for a year or two, and then it seemed to dissappear.

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Hmmm. I'm a bit torn as to what to say here. Probably best to start by setting the scene a bit.

    I was working with Nigel Irens at the time of the Western Skiff project, and it was I that took Nigel's original thoughts and developed the shape, the structure, the kit and the instructions for the boat. I built the prototype which you see in the publicity pics.

    Initially, the project was developed to form part of a TV series on boats that a local producer was working on. Later, Classic Boat became involved to increase publicity etc. The original plan was for a local boatbuilder to manage and sell kits, however as things worked out, we (in the design office) ended up holding the stock and shipping the stuff around which really wasn't ideal. So, it rather fizzled out on that basis.

    Since then, I have shuffled the design information in to a set of plans of sorts, but Nigel and I don't really market them at all. We work independently of each other now and are both set up for larger things.

    Now to the difficult bit.... It is always nice to hear that one's work is enjoyed and appreciated, but knowing how much was sunk into the project in the early stages it raises certain emotions to hear that someone, at the time, simply copied the work for their own gains without consent. If the boats built were sold with a “designed by Nigel Irens” tag on them the emotions become stronger. With hindsight, it was perhaps naive of us to publish the cut out model but we thought people might find it fun and be inspired to build a boat (either from one of the kits or perhaps some other design they liked). And people wonder why designers are a bit cagey about publishing lines sometimes…..

    So, what to suggest now? Knowing Nigel, and the (financial) history of the project, I can understand him not wanting to open it up again. He isn’t the best of correspondents anyway, and I’m not sure I would know quite what to say either! If Scott would like to get in touch however, I would happy to discuss the options.

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Cocoa,

    It is indeed up to Scott to clarify. As I mention above, I am willing and in a position to help if he wants to get in touch.

    To answer your question, intellectual property exists in published drawings. It could be argued that once placed in the public domain this is anyones for the taking. It could also be argued that the information published was for a model, not a full size boat, and in scaling it up someone would be creating a new design rather than copying an existing one.

    There are others who know more about this than I, but I hope the sentiments that give rise to my post above are understandable.

    As for using the information for one's own amusement rather than commercial gain, whether someone is building a boat for themselves or to sell on for profit, they are extracting benefit from the design information that they use. To put it another way, would it be alright for me to "use" someone elses car to drive myself to work, but not if I take a paying passenger?

    As I say above, it was perhaps naive of us to publish the model templates. If someone is determined to extract information from published material then there is more or less nothing a designer can do about it, other than keep everything under lock and key which would be a shame and a detriment to all. One of the more depressing things about this forum is the average value that seems to be placed on "plans", but this is a larger subject and not one where further discussion is likely to prove rewarding.

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Ed, would you be so kind and post a drawing or sailing photo, so that forumites might know just how pretty this little skiff is. I seem to remember seeing her sailing at Beaulieu when the Wooden Boat Show was held there many years ago?

    Brian

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Warning: thread drift. Having just received a set of Iain Oughtred's plans for the same cost as 2 sheets of BS1088 plywood, they seem like a great value. I would bet 99% of the people here who actually build boats would agree the designer is more than entitled to the small cost of his or her plans.
    Denny Wolfe
    www.wolfEboats.com

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by mcdenny View Post
    Warning: thread drift. Having just received a set of Iain Oughtred's plans for the same cost as 2 sheets of BS1088 plywood, they seem like a great value. I would bet 99% of the people here who actually build boats would agree the designer is more than entitled to the small cost of his or her plans.
    Are you accusing me of thread drift? All I did was ask if Ed might post a small drawing just to illustrate how lovely this little skiff is. I agree entirely with your point about value of plans so I am offended by your comments.

    Brian

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Here you go then. Pics of first trials (with some rather stubby oars). Scanned from prints - seems so long ago now....





    The boat did row and sail very nicely - although the need for performance under oar lead to it feeling a little tender in a breeze by some standards!

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Ed,
    many thanks for the photos.
    I also too interest in the plans of the western skiff some time ago, but I did not receive an answer from Nigel Irens side. Thanks for the background information, though.
    I still am interested in plans or something in that direction in order to work from there. I am fascinated by the little displacement of this design.
    Alternatives such as the ABER design by F.Vivier share the same length and lug rig configuration, but with a light ship desplacement of 220 kg it is a completely different breed of boat.
    In conclusion, I also would be happy if some sort of documentation regarding the skiff could be made available at a fair price.
    Best regards.
    Detlef

  25. #25

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    As my partner on the project, Todd Kirkland will verify, our "knockoff" western skiffs were never built for profit and was simply an extension of my paper model that evolved naturally as a cheap and easy boat design we could build, the model templates proved irresistible to me in hindsight, the resulting boats were stunning, yet none survive as far as I know, we built them very light and to be quite honest we didn't know what the hell we were doing. But the chance to do it again, right this time would be great. Todd Kirkland has contacted me recently about moving out here to California and he would like to build Western Skiffs again..
    -Scott Church

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Ok, well, anyone wanting to discuss the possibilities is more than welcome to contact me off forum.

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Brian, Easy there, I was meaning MY post was thread drift as I introduced Oughtred and the Arctic Tern.
    Denny Wolfe
    www.wolfEboats.com

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelIrensWesternSkiff View Post
    As my partner on the project, Todd Kirkland will verify, our "knockoff" western skiffs were never built for profit and was simply an extension of my paper model that evolved naturally as a cheap and easy boat design we could build, the model templates proved irresistible to me in hindsight, the resulting boats were stunning, yet none survive as far as I know, we built them very light and to be quite honest we didn't know what the hell we were doing. But the chance to do it again, right this time would be great. Todd Kirkland has contacted me recently about moving out here to California and he would like to build Western Skiffs again..
    -Scott Church
    I'll be forthright and say you absolutely should not build these boats without paying the designer. It seems to me you could create a win win situation easily, if you just took your blinkers off.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    I wouldn't dream of ever building another one without it being officially blessed by the team that created it, as in fully licensed and all due monies paid.

    My intention was to create a brouhaha with this thread, and I believe that I have succeeded..

    -Scott Church

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelIrensWesternSkiff View Post
    My intention was to create a brouhaha with this thread, and I believe that I have succeeded..

    -Scott Church
    Get thee back to the Bilge where you belong
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Piracy is never a pretty business...my apologies to anyone whose sensibilities I may have offended..I wanna go straight, really I do!!
    -Scott Church

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    My jury is out on the piracy issue.

    Have done some freelance content writing, so I am a bit sensitive to intellectual property issues.


    To me it looks like this. A designer looked at a classic design and engineered a version thereof that plans were drawn for. No question that's their work.

    They put a model in a magazine to promote the plans. Somebody takes the model and from that designs and builds their own full size boat...... I'm having a hard time seeing the beef in this Wendy's commercial.

    If the magazine article or model cut out had specified that the designer specifically forbid the end user from using the model to make a full size boat and the end user knew that before paying for the content, then it's more of a discussion to me.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    If there was any fine print in the magazine that said I didn't have permission to build a full size boat I didn't see it, so basically, how did this happen??..

    Too much information was released !
    You gave us the formula!
    But I'm grateful you did, for
    what made the birth of the bootleg boats possible was here we were given the bulkheads along with the hull panels and thats what made it so easy to put together, it was almost magic, the end result was so breathtaking, and everyone would always say "Who designed it", and we would always say something like, "Why Nigel Irens, of course..." and feel lots of pride,
    BUT THIS WAS NEVER A FOR PROFIT VENTURE! only made two, maybe three..all destroyed..we used inferior materials too!
    So we had what we needed to build the basic shell..
    What we didn't have was any full size plans at all, and here over a decade later thats something I want to use when I say that I want to do it "the right way" I hope this thread encourages people to want to build one of these of their own, too!

    (Also if asked I am willing to pay a licensing fee in reciprocity for now destroyed hulls 1, 2 and 3. I love this design!)

    -Scott Church

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    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Scott,
    I noticed a one line reply from Ed Burnett, who is associated with Nigel Irens. Have you contacted him?

  35. #35

    Default Re: Nigel Irens' Western Skiff, need drawings,plans, anything!

    Hello Rob,
    Yes, I have sent Ed Burnett a note, hopefully we can get our hands on some official plans, no more pirate ships!
    -Scott Church

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