Building 72' schooner in Viet Nam

[Lucky Luke]

Dear friends of Woodenboat forum,

Some may remember a thread I had started a while ago and that was named:" Help wanted: building big schooner in Vietnam". This was in an attempt to help the owners of that boat finding a new boat builder to take over after the departure of the previous one. I have now deleted that thread as it mostly led to useless and not that nice comments but no positive action, but as I thought you guys (and gals) might still like to know about this construction, I now start this new one. I just hope that refrain of pen and tongue will avoid reading the same infantile thoughts we had to suffer in previous thread. Please ask questions, and I shall be happy to reply whenever I have a bit of time in hand.

So: eight months have now gone, without much progress and without the ideal boat-builder presenting himself. I have then, with the help of my boys of my design office, and only the Vietnamese crew of shipwrights who built this boat so far, taken over in guiding this nice crew for the continuation of this construction.

But let's start by the beginning:

Two years ago now, the first part of the keel was blocked up on the yard:




On it, then, came the deadwood, placed in the mortise in the keel, and made of two BIG parts:






The stem piece (here: it's template) was actually a super-thick lamination pieces that the builders adjusted with this very unusual scarf to the keel :

[Larks]

LL, it's nice to see this thread back mate and I'm looking forward to seeing the updates. I'm sorry to hear that they haven't found a boat builder, are they still after one - or a Project Manager? Maybe PM me if they are and let me know what you/they are after and now that I am back on the East Coast I'll see if I can get an idea of who is about and doing what, the industry here has slowed down quite a bit over the last 6-8 months so things have changed since your last thread.

(the first couple of pics haven't shown up (red X's) )

cheers
Greg

[Lucky Luke]

The "lamination" of this massive stem was done with six pieces:





and finally the keel laying ceremony saw the complete backbone, with keel, stem, deadwood and stern piece all in place:

[RFNK]

Good luck with this Luke - the process looks amazing. I think it's great that you're leading this project now and I wish you all well. I hope I can see it in the flesh one day soon! Rick

[Lucky Luke]

The frames were then laminated, from red meranti. Since the laminations were quite thick (16mm), and the turn of the bilge with short radius, it was necessary to first steam them in this very classic steam box:



A "grill" had been made, onto which the sections were drawn and the lamination put there for two days to cool down in shape. After cooling, they were glued (by pairs) with PU:



On the keel was added a hog plank, visible here with a different color, and then frames were erected, joined by a floor made of a very hard and dense wood known here as "chicken bone"...!





This was or course a long process, as four days were needed for the lamination of each frame, meaning over a week between preparation, steaming, cooling, gluing, and finally erection! And there are over fifty of them!

So...a year later, the planking finally started.

This planking is kind of a big strip planking, double layer (2 1/2 thick total), in red meranti. It is all PU glued together and to the frames, and then fastened with lag bolts:



The frames were squared to the planking as it progressed and to the stringers and beam shelf inside:

[Lucky Luke]

Then, she slowly started to take shape as the planking went up:





Inside, two stringers and the beam shelf were put in place:





The transom, pierced for four large windows for the massive Master stateroom aft, was planked the same way as the hull, with wider board. The edges of this transom planking were trimmed to be covered later by the hull planking:

[Uncle Duke]

Absolutely wonderful - thanks for the updates! More to come, yes?

[rbgarr]

Can you post profile and arrangement plans?

[Lucky Luke]

It's OK Larks: this team is good, and all they need now is some guidance and a lot of drawings, which I now do with my team and also lots of mails and weekly visits to the yard. It would have been good to find a knowledgeable boat-builder, but the few "experiments" were..well...forget it!

[Lucky Luke]

Can you post profile and arrangement plans?

More is coming, more is coming! Patience my friends: you're going to regal yourselves

[Lucky Luke]

I should actually have showed you those, before the planking started:









You can admire there the massive lamination that is the transom's structure"

[Lucky Luke]

Now, for those who did not follow from the beginning:

This boat will be a close sister-ship of the schooner "Tree of Life", designed by good old Canadian chap: Ted Brewer.

Ted did a wonderful job designing this boat, who has now circumnavigated few times!!! She has proven as seaworthy as comfortable with her fully enclosed "Baltic trader" style wheelhouse (maybe not the top of elegance, but what a comfort!!!) and also fast as proves her first place in the Antigua race (classics).

Here is "Tree of Life":

[Lucky Luke]

That's all folks for today!

Tomorrow, I have to go to the yard an then to the mill where four logs of Burma teak have been delivered today (5 cubic meters, up to 28 feet long). At least this teak will go on the deck of a beautiful wooden schooner, and not for garden furniture and swimming pool beach
The mill is not used to cutting "quarter sawn", and I will have to direct the cutting, turn the logs on and again....just hope the wood will be good inside: you never know until you have done the first cut right through the heart! With proper milling, however, one can get the best out of a log.

Teak wood, happily, is now planted everywhere in Myanmar (Ex Burma - I have been working there), in many gardens, in "sustainable" forests, but practically no more exists in the mountains. It will not be as good as it had been, but we have to accept that. for tomorrow: I hope not to have bad surprises: it's always a "lottery"!

So, will post you some more this week end !

[Hwyl]

I'm looking forward to seeing the rigging and the systems. Will you use Soectra? Are you going to use turnbuckles/rigging screws or deadeyes and lanyards. I hope she will have a water maker, I'm not sure if I would fit a generator.

I know you are going to make the traditional "lucky Luke" mistake and fit a vang to the gaff.

A tout a l'heure

[paladin]

Luc.....I would have loved to be back there.....all I need is a couple of spare kidneys and lots of young fresh blood.

[novapamela]

I'm enjoying the thread. Thanks for sharing, Luke.

Cheers!

[pdufrene]

Thanks for posting the update Luke. I have really been looking forward to this for a long time. It is absolutely incredible!

[Ian Marchuk]

Merci mon ami....c'est magnifique

[Ian McColgin]

Your leadership is a wonderful benefit for the client and the boat.

Finastkind.

[nedL]

I have been following your progress here (and I think maybe another site?) --- Wonderful project & looks great!! Please keep us updated.

[peter radclyffe]

fantastic

[George Roberts]

lovely boat.

[Russ Manheimer]

Thanks Luke. Looking forward to watching over your shoulder. I had a chance to visit the original Tree of Life after she was launched. I think she had a copper bath tub. Very impressive design.

Russ

[htom]

Wow. Thank you, Luke, and more, please!

[John Meachen]

Inspirational thread,thanks for posting.

[kazeai1969]

Keep those pictures coming...wow!

[Lucky Luke]

PLANKING:
The planking is, like the frames, of red meranti. This wood, rather soft and not resistant to rot and marine borers is normally not much used in boat building, but as it's porosity in the other hand allows it to absorb glue very well, modern techniques change that. The fact that this wood comes (from Indonesian sustainable forests) in long, clear grain logs actually makes it very suitable.
The glue used for both frames and planking is Akzo-Nobel polyurethane (PUR D4). West System epoxy was tested, but did not show any better (and far more expensive!).

The planking is a kind of "double-strip-planking": first planking is 3/4, second 1 1/2:



The rabbet has to be double too. Along the stem, the first rabbet is made deeper by gluing an extra piece, while the second rabbet, for the thicker planking, is cut with adze and chisel the traditional way:





After "adzing" the frames to bevel them and carefully cleaning the previous plank's edge (here by Mr. Trung, the foremen), first planking is presented and adjusted to the previous one by running a saw in between both, ensuring a perfect fit (done here by Mr. Nam, the first carpenter, pulling the saw):

[Lucky Luke]

Second planking, thicker, needs a bit more muscle, hydraulic jacks and wedges:



Finished planking is then glued and fastened with 3/8 stainless steel lag bolts:





Later, this planking will be impregnated with Wesyt System epoxy, and sheated with three 10oz. fiberglass. The "Tree of life", which has much smaller frames and planking, has a kevlar layer between both planking in the forward third of the hull. This was not deemed necessary on this sturdier boat, and anyway not possible with PU but epoxy only.

This "double-strip-planking" method could be used for much smaller boats too. The cross grain gluing reinforces the planking, perhaps not as well, but in a much easier way than adding a couple of diagonal veneers.

[donald branscom]

What is the LJB on the back of the workers clothing?
Reminded me of LBJ prison during the Viet Nam war. Stacks of steel shipping containers where they would put soldiers who refused to fight.

[Saltiguy]

Thank you for showing this build. It's a privilege to be able to see something like this, and your efforts are most appreciated.

[Lucky Luke]

What is the LJB on the back of the workers clothing?
Reminded me of LBJ prison during the Viet Nam war. Stacks of steel shipping containers where they would put soldiers who refused to fight.

Not prison thing at all!!!

LJB stands for: Laura Jane Boatyard

[Lucky Luke]

I'm looking forward to seeing the rigging and the systems. Will you use Soectra? Are you going to use turnbuckles/rigging screws or deadeyes and lanyards. I hope she will have a water maker, I'm not sure if I would fit a generator.

I know you are going to make the traditional "lucky Luke" mistake and fit a vang to the gaff.

A tout a l'heure

Hi Hwyl,

RIGGING:

Standing rigging will either be galvanized or stainless steel, but (normally) spliced and served. Since I shall have to do ....quite some, I hope we can find good galvanized one: I quite hate splicing a 7 x 7 stainless steel !!!

No lanyards and deadeyes but galvanized turnbuckles!

Stays which will receive a sail with piston hanks (staysail, flying jib...) will be 1 x 19 S.S. with swage terminals (imported). The jib may be roller furling (???)

Metallic running rigging will be 7 x 19 S.S., spliced (with the splice served in S.S. wire)

"Textile" running rigging will be modern platted ropes "spliced" with the special hollow needles. All whipping, "Turkish hat" aso... the old classic way but with modern materials.

Blocks will be good old wooden ones with stainless steel fitting and bronze sheaves. A LOT of them!

SYSTEMS:

Besides main engine, basic toilet system, fresh water and grey water and bilge/ fire pumping, other systems will be installed gradually, as the money comes. Generator (12 to 15 KVA) will be necessary as soon as the air conditioning, and then the water maker will be installed. Then bow thruster, electro-hydraulic for winches, black and grey water treatment, all that will come later.

A "vang" to the gaff..??????? whatzit? Preventers you mean?

[RFNK]

Later, this planking will be impregnated with Wesyt System epoxy, and sheated with three 10oz. fiberglass. The "Tree of life", which has much smaller frames and planking, has a kevlar layer between both planking in the forward third of the hull. This was not deemed necessary on this sturdier boat, and anyway not possible with PU but epoxy only.

Luke, what's the purpose of the fibreglass sheathing? I have a splined hull Twister I'm restoring (see Restoration of a Twister thread) and have been debating whether or not to sheathe the hull with glass. I know it's common practice to sheathe a strip-planked hull but what will this do for the schooner? Is it to reduce maintenance, strengthen the hull, improve waterproofing? I'd value your opinion on this. Rick

[Flitch]

Hey Rick,
You should have a look at this link which any shipwright amateur or pro will appreciate... (http://1930schoonermistress.com/home)
Especially look at "Memory Monday 15 - 19 and also read "Covering Wooden Boats with Fiberglass" by Allan H. Vaitses. I'm as tempted as you are...
Flitch

PS Lucky Luke - Great Thread! Please keep the pics and commentary coming!

[RFNK]

That's a really interesting link Flitch - thanks!! Rick

[Lucky Luke]

Luke, what's the purpose of the fibreglass sheathing? I have a splined hull Twister I'm restoring (see Restoration of a Twister thread) and have been debating whether or not to sheathe the hull with glass. I know it's common practice to sheathe a strip-planked hull but what will this do for the schooner? Is it to reduce maintenance, strengthen the hull, improve waterproofing? I'd value your opinion on this. Rick

Hi Rick,

The intent of the fiberglass sheathing is double: one is to allow to build a thicker epoxy barrier (West System: keep the wood dry) and one is to make the hull more resistant against scratches. This epoxy barrier will be protected against UV by polyurethane painting (Awlgrip?), which is what will need maintenance, not this sheathing.

This is possible on a quite rigid boat like this one, new, and where the planking is expected to be very stable. It does not practically add any rigidity to the planking which, with the structure, is very powerful in comparison to this three little layers of glass!

On your boat, this would be very prejudicial. The planking WILL move, and part from any sheathing. This will be causing voids, and subsequent rot. What will be good for you, as far as epoxy treatment is concerned, and specially for whatever planking/ structure will be preserved is to stabilize / impregnate them with CPES (or International Everdure, or Oil Beckers ....or any low molecular weight epoxy formulated for wood impregnation). They do not do miracles, but they help! No rigid sheathing.

Good work you are starting with this boat! I will comment on a few things when I can afford the time. Keep the idea of the bridge deck!

Luc

[RFNK]

Thanks Luc, sounds very logical to me, greatly appreciated! Rick

[Scratchee]

Luke...

Where are you in Vietnam?

[Concordia...41]

Amazing progress! Thanks for updating the Forum after the other thread derailed.

- M

[Candyfloss]

My thanks also.

[Lucky Luke]

Luke...

Where are you in Vietnam?

Home + office are in Thu Duc, outskirts of Saigon. This boat is being built in Vung Tau, 1.1/4 hours away by fast ferry.

[Hwyl]

Hi Hwyl,

RIGGING:

Standing rigging will either be galvanized or stainless steel, but (normally) spliced and served. Since I shall have to do ....quite some, I hope we can find good galvanized one: I quite hate splicing a 7 x 7 stainless steel !!!

No lanyards and deadeyes but galvanized turnbuckles!

Stays which will receive a sail with piston hanks (staysail, flying jib...) will be 1 x 19 S.S. with swage terminals (imported). The jib may be roller furling (???)

Metallic running rigging will be 7 x 19 S.S., spliced (with the splice served in S.S. wire)

"Textile" running rigging will be modern platted ropes "spliced" with the special hollow needles. All whipping, "Turkish hat" aso... the old classic way but with modern materials.

Blocks will be good old wooden ones with stainless steel fitting and bronze sheaves. A LOT of them!

SYSTEMS:

Besides main engine, basic toilet system, fresh water and grey water and bilge/ fire pumping, other systems will be installed gradually, as the money comes. Generator (12 to 15 KVA) will be necessary as soon as the air conditioning, and then the water maker will be installed. Then bow thruster, electro-hydraulic for winches, black and grey water treatment, all that will come later.

A "vang" to the gaff..??????? whatzit? Preventers you mean?

You are going to be busy with splicing. It looks like a lot of equipment going in, watermakers have taken away one of my chances to be a curmudgeon skipper. It hurts to say "Use as much water as you like". Instead of "are you trying to recreate Niagara falls in there".

You and I have argued about Vangs before, a line from the end of the fore gaff to the mainmast to take out the twist.

[shamus]

Brilliant thread: Thanks Luke.

[Lucky Luke]

WOOD BUTCHERS:
If you build in wood, you have to cut trees!

As I told you a few days ago, I had to go to the mill to guide the milling of the teak logs that had been bought for the (future) decking.

Of course, I did not go in the forests of Burma to fall down the trees, but all starts by choosing you logs. This is a lottery! There can be, with teak grown in forests, big black areas that can make a whole log un-usable. Nowadays, we do not have this oily, close grain teak full of silica but also less bad surprises with trees that have grown in plains and had been looked after. Many individuals and logging companies are planting teak in Burma (Myanmar) today and less is cut in forests, happily.

The difficult choice at the lumber yard between dozens of logs :



At the mill, I decided to cut in thick boards the width of the deck planks first, which will later be cut at the yard in order to be quarter-sawn, and have the mill cutting only the central planks at the final thickness (plus 4 mil for machining). Here is a sixty years old log, the smallest one I had bought:



This one is a hundred years old!



I find some poetry in this picture.....:



The boards were then stacked under cover at the yard, by thickness, where they will stay for their first 3, 4 weeks. After that, since teak is one of the few timbers which like drying in the sun (and it gives it a nice color too!), the boards will be taken to the open spaces of the yard when the rainy season will be finished.

[paladin]

Luc......consider Xynole fabric in the epoxy rather than glass....far more abrasion resistant than the glass will be, and less chance of impact damage, and may be a bit less expensive......and personally, I like working with it better than glass.

[Candyfloss]

I'm just trying to get my head around the math here.
My best guess at a half-girth would be about 12ft. 2/3s of that for an average for the boat leaves 8ft. Assuming the cloth is 4ft wide, then 20 widths for the length of the boat, allowing for overlaps. Then three layers of it, & 2 sides to the boat is 8*4*20*3*2= 3840 feet of cloth, or 1.17 KILOMETRES of cloth. And I'm probably way conservative in that estimation. But first we have to bung all those fasteners & longboard the boat, rightside up.
I suddenly feel very insignificant.

[SunshineBridge]

Excellent thread, most impressive. That you make the time Luke to share this is fantastic. Thank you.

[Lucky Luke]

Luc......consider Xynole fabric in the epoxy rather than glass....far more abrasion resistant than the glass will be, and less chance of impact damage, and may be a bit less expensive......and personally, I like working with it better than glass.

Good you mention that, Chuck, since this is a decision that will have to be taken quite soon.

I had simply never heard about this stuff till I saw it mentioned on the "Building the Suzan" thread, where I was impressed by how cleanly it was wrapping and bending around tight curves.

I have never been too keen on these sheathings, as I had really bad experience with fiberglass over wood: a no-no! Epoxy, bonding much better and keeping some flexibility changes that a lot, but I still feel concerned about the rigidity of the fiberglass itself, specially when using woven roving. So, although ted Brewer specified 3 x 10 oz/sq.yd. layers, meaning quite some WR, I rather prefer CSM, impregnated with much epoxy, and a few more layers.

Using a thin polyester like Xynole would mean also many layers to achieve the prescribed thickness, but it's qualities may allow to reduce that (...????). One trouble with these polyester reinforcements, though, specially if there are many layers meaning an un-even final surface is that it could only be sanded slowly and by hand...and this is a large boat! There will be enough sanding "upside down" already! Cost of (American) Xylene over (Chinese) CSM is also quite a concern!!!

Finally, I would add that West System (we use their epoxy) advises CSM as perfectly suitable (better if stiched, but unavailable here), and does not mention Xynole or other, as far as I know.

[RFNK]

Luc
You might want to have a look at this other thread too as it contains some data published from a test of various sheathing fabrics
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103348

The relevant issue, I think, is that xynole requires a lot more epoxy for saturation. If you put 2 layers of xynole on this boat you'll need a great deal more epoxy than you'll need if you use woven glass (if I'm reading the data correctly). The situation with the chopped strand you're planning to use may be entierly different, of course! Of course I have no idea whether this would be a significant problem or not but I think the question of the choice of fabric should take into account the differences in amount of epoxy required. If I was building such a big boat, I think I'd be consulting directly with the Gougeon Bros for advice re choice of fabric etc. Or someone who's used to building on this scale, like you Luc!!

The other thing that I'd be looking at, based on methods used by boatbuilders near my home in Oz, would be using peel ply as you do the glassing as this should massively reduce the sanding required (I have this picture in my head of Vung Tau being covered in fine white dust - instead of the more usual fine brown dust which covers Viet Nam ). Since you're planning to use CSM you're probably planning to do this anyway. I'm actually quite surprised you're going with CSM - I don't see any of the guys building largish strip planked boats in Oz using this. I'd have thought that you'd achieve much better bonding and strength with double bias.
Rick

[Candyfloss]

CSM is going to gobble up epoxy.