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Thread: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

  1. #1
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    Default Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    The San Francisco Great Pelican is a well know scow, purportedly stable and tough, a simple single chine flat bottom scow an 8 foot beam and flare comparable to a banks dory to the sides:



    Goshawk is Paul Fisher's version, also 16 x 8 feet, but with a multichine firm bilge roundness to the sides. Don't know if any have been built but it looks like a very shapely and handsome craft for its type. Goshawk also carries a little more ballast and keeps the CB out of the cabin area.





    Any opinions on one over the other?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    I don't like the tumblehome on the Fisher design...it may look good to some eyes, but reduces the ultimate stability. When I reworked my son's boat, I extended the sides upward and raised the edge of the cabin line giving more internal volume, dropped the keel along the centerline approx. 6 inches to a shallow "V" and made a flat about 6 inches wide along the centerline, made a deeper housing for the centerboard, and added ballast to almost equal the increased displacement...then increased the sail area by 15%......
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
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    Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    Quote Originally Posted by paladin View Post
    I don't like the tumblehome on the Fisher design...it may look good to some eyes, but reduces the ultimate stability. When I reworked my son's boat, I extended the sides upward and raised the edge of the cabin line giving more internal volume, dropped the keel along the centerline approx. 6 inches to a shallow "V" and made a flat about 6 inches wide along the centerline, made a deeper housing for the centerboard, and added ballast to almost equal the increased displacement...then increased the sail area by 15%......
    Chuck, I have the line drawings of Chelaydra. Did you ever come up with a table of offsets and a sail plan?

    PS - I don't think there is any tumblehome on the Fisher design's hull. That's just the cabin side. The multichine side looks like it would provide more initial stability but maybe not slide off a big wave as easily?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    I'd have to say I like the original a little better. It looks to me like the Fisher design has the cabin all the way across-- no side decks. Might make going forward a bit of an adventure.

    On the other hand, the centerboard-like drop plate in the rudder is a great idea, isn't it? I'm inclined to steal it immediately-- if my barndoor rudders on the cartop cat don't work out.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    Disregard the cabins. You can make almost any changes you want to a cabin including leaving it off completely provided you have an ounce of common sense about it. I'm only interested in comparing the hull forms.Thanks.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    If you build it right then you can run the cabin as far forward as you like, make a nice hatch in the forward cabin top....no reason to go forward in any kind of weather, even for anchoring...
    Jim...Yet...I did make a complete set of offsets etc for Chelaydra....even so far as computer offsets for full scale frames including the cabin arrangements.....and yup on the sail plan....didja wanna set? Send me a a large envelope, self addressed, with about $2 in postage and I'll run off the paper.....do you need all the construction drawings?
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
    ..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
    Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
    Live your life so that whenever you lose, you're ahead."
    "If you live life right, death is a joke as far as fear is concerned."

  7. #7

    Default Re: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    I'm pretty ignorant about this stuff, but I don't think the Fisher hull form is really a great improvement functionally. It may make for a slightly faster boat, but you lose displacement and stiffness, as well as simplicity of build, which is a selling point of the original design. It's prettier, though.

    I have to admit that I've long been a fan of the original. There was one sitting in a vacant lot in Destin a few years ago with a For Sale sign, and I was mightily tempted.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    Quote Originally Posted by paladin View Post
    If you build it right then you can run the cabin as far forward as you like, make a nice hatch in the forward cabin top....no reason to go forward in any kind of weather, even for anchoring...
    Jim...Yet...I did make a complete set of offsets etc for Chelaydra....even so far as computer offsets for full scale frames including the cabin arrangements.....and yup on the sail plan....didja wanna set? Send me a a large envelope, self addressed, with about $2 in postage and I'll run off the paper.....do you need all the construction drawings?
    Chuck, I'll mail you a self addressed postage paid envelope tomorow. Don't know if I'll need all the drawings. I would need to know where you figure the frames and bulkheads ought to go, and some scantling suggestions for the frames and plywood. The cabin I will design myself. I'm about a foot shorter and a hundred pounds lighter than you so I won't need all that extra space. My first idea is to build it as an open boat, just a foredeck and side decks, with a tent to be 'pegged' onto the side decks. At some point further down the road I may put a hard top on it. But for now a really big, open, stable platform for camp cruising the pnw gulf islands in summer is what I have in mind. And yes, there is a very real chance I will actually built it having spent years looking at every conceivable option for a larger pocket cruiser. A beamy, stiff sailing scow with a couple junk sails sounds like the right boat. Added bonus is that it will match the dinghy I built last year. Isn't that what they say? Build the dinghy first?

    PS - Don't know if I hung on to your mailing address. Can you send me a PM?

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    Default Re: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    Quote Originally Posted by slidercat View Post
    ... I don't think the Fisher hull form is really a great improvement functionally. It may make for a slightly faster boat, but you lose displacement and stiffness...
    I would have thought just the opposite. Adding some roundness to the bilges would increase volume and buoyancy when heeling, would it not?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I would have thought just the opposite. Adding some roundness to the bilges would increase volume and buoyancy when heeling, would it not?
    I don't think so, though maybe I'm wrong. Rounding off a corner decreases volume, just like 8-siding a mast (just finished one) and it's volume out at the edge, where it could contribute to stiffness if it were still there. If you take the idea to its conclusion, you end up with a semicircular hull, which has no form stability at all. A box boat has the maximum form stability among monohulls.

    I might be misunderstanding you, but when I was drawing Slider, I went with hard chines and flat bottoms because if I'd used an extra panel to soften the turn of the bilge, I would have found it even more difficult to get sufficient displacement in fine 16 foot hulls.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Great Pelican 16vs Goshawk16

    Quote Originally Posted by slidercat View Post
    I don't think so, though maybe I'm wrong. Rounding off a corner decreases volume, just like 8-siding a mast (just finished one) and it's volume out at the edge, where it could contribute to stiffness if it were still there. If you take the idea to its conclusion, you end up with a semicircular hull, which has no form stability at all. A box boat has the maximum form stability among monohulls.

    I might be misunderstanding you, but when I was drawing Slider, I went with hard chines and flat bottoms because if I'd used an extra panel to soften the turn of the bilge, I would have found it even more difficult to get sufficient displacement in fine 16 foot hulls.
    I see what you mean. Not what I meant. The difference in volume between single hard chine, multi chine, and round depends on where you draw the straight or round lines, eh? I'd post pics but first I'd have to draw them.

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