medieval Smal boats

[damnyankee]

I know there isn't a whole lot of information out there, but I'm looking for information on medieval small boats. Mostly North Atlantic boats, not viking though, ideally english merchant boats that crossed the channel. I know its a bit of a long shot, but I figure some on here can point me in the right direction.

Christopher

[skuthorp]

Hmm, Cogs and Carracks? I think Galleys were in fairly common use as well. But that's the big stuff isn't it? The backgrounds of paintings and drawings of the time might help.
A quick google produced this
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Boats+in+medieval+art&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=
Havent looked at any of it yet but will now.

[Thorne]

Define your time period and any other specs / limitations (size? material? must be English?). Are you looking for specific measurements and materials, written descriptions, drawings, paintings, or ?

[damnyankee]

im loose on the time period... say before 1550 or 1600, and after the fall of the roman empire. In a perfect world some one would have plans to build off of, but because of the lack of that kind of data in general I don't expect that, but would like enough info to get there. No, it doesn't have to be English. Ideally not Viking or Mediterranean. As far as size... I'm not sure. something that can be trailered easily.

Christopher

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I have the distinct impression that in recent years English archaeologists have been digging up small boats by the flotilla. However, some of them have been much, much older. Let me have a think...

[damnyankee]

I have the distinct impression that in recent years English archaeologists have been digging up small boats by the flotilla. However, some of them have been much, much older. Let me have a think...
I would think so too, however I'm not certan where to begin to look, which is why i'm posting here.


Christopher

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Here?

http://www.snr.org.uk/mariners_mirror.htm

[skuthorp]

http://www.archaeology.co.uk/the-timeline-of-britain/the-dover-bronze-age-boat.htm

Wickepedia has some links you could try

[Thorne]

We still need more info here. Lots of links about old boats, but many of them will be too large to trailer, and/or leak horribly if trailer-sailed --- something not done in the period.

Sailing the North Sea or local duckpond? Carrying cargo or just daytripping? Size/weight of cargo and crew?

Very small boats and corracles may have been dragged out of the water at times, particluarly winter, but otherwise period boats lived in their element -- water, ice and mud.

Tell us what you want to do with the boat, how many it needs to carry, plus info on budget, transportation and storage limits.

Most likely one of the faering designs currently in production would work for you and still survive modern boating conditions, trailer-sailing, etc. You'll do a lot of pumping and bailing, but the boat will be 'period' from reasonably authentic materials.
http://www.viking-boats.com/Images/2003_0113Faeringafloat0035.jpg

Here's a late 16th / early 17th C Dutch painting -- the boat in the foreground would work well for a lot of reasons -
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1001/4000928/8302360/111208810.jpg

Dutch boats frozen in the ice -
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/avercamp/ice-landscape-schwerin.jpg

[Yeadon]

This question has johnw written all over it.

[keith66]

Only thing that immediately springs to mind would be the Peter boat used on the Thames estuary and also on the River Medway where it was called a Doble. They were undoubtedly an ancient type, Double ended 18 to 20 odd ft long very beamy clinker boats with a flattish sheer. They set a single spritsail rig with Jib & were fitted with a wet well midships.
I do not think any now survive but lines were taken of by Edgar J March and published in his book Inshore sailing craft of the British Isles.

[Peerie Maa]

Graveny Boat http://ay-avebury.soton.ac.uk/Prospectus/CMA/HistShip/shlect79.htm
and the Bremen Cog http://www.dsm.museum/MA/cog.htm
http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp164/peerie_maa/Brest%202004/26bremencog.jpg

[obscured by clouds]

currach?

http://k53.pbase.com/g3/33/836333/2/102419054.O2vKVjXn.jpg

hardly changed since pre medaeval times

[Canoeyawl]

You might look at this - in WoodenBoat Magazine;
Chapman, Fredrik Henrik, designer: Swedish ship's boat TELKKA,* 60:68

[Woxbox]

If you want a trailerable boat, it could look a lot like this, the Kalmar Nyckel's trusty shallop. This was built to early 17th century practice, but in your stated period of late 16th century, things would not have been a lot different. This boat is 18' by 6' or close to that. It's mostly oak and weighs about 1,500 pounds. And we do trailer it here and there.

Edited to add: On second read, I see you're actually thinking earlier still, pre- Renaissance. That would be a bit more hazy. Shallops like this are pretty well understood, but small boats prior to this period aren't much recorded, and the artwork of that earlier period is not up to Dutch masters standards.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/Woxbox/Sailing2.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/Woxbox/Little_Key_gun.jpg

[C. Ross]

This question has johnw written all over it.

Which medieval boat planed first? :D

This is a really fun thread. Carry on.

[ShagRock]

im loose on the time period... say before 1550 or 1600, and after the fall of the roman empire. In a perfect world some one would have plans to build off of, but because of the lack of that kind of data in general I don't expect that, but would like enough info to get there. No, it doesn't have to be English. Ideally not Viking or Mediterranean.

So about 500 to 1500AD...1000 years. Check out other mid-European boats as after the demise of the Roman legions about 400AD in Britain, the Anglos, Saxons and Jutes conquered the eastern sections of the isles (excepting Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall); dividing the place into five kingdoms. The English really aren't so exclusivelly English.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I've sailed and rowed a Dark Ages boat - the SAE WYLFING - the half size copy of the Sutton Hoo ship (c.620 AD) She goes very well indeed.

http://www.maritimewoodbridge.org.uk/images/SaeWylfing-rudder.jpg


I agree with Keith66; the peterboat would be an excellent medieval type to build. Double ended lapstrake boats showing a relationship with the faerings from the Viking period found in Norway, but with sprit rig.

[damnyankee]

Ive been kinda vague on purpose. I'm not really sure what I want.
I'm getting involved (again) in the SCA (society of Creative Anachronism,) and I also want to build a boat. I don't have a place to build one currently, and the budget is an issue, so instead of finding a boat I can build now, I want to find a boat that I want to build later. With something like this its going to take a good deal of research, which is interesting in it self. So, I guess I'll try to say what I want a bit better. I understand that most medieval boats would have lived wet, and as such would make poor trailer boats. So That means I will have to use some modern materials and practices. I'd be wearing a life vest which isn't period anyway. I'm not settled on my SCA persona, which is why ive been vague on time period. Perhaps I would find such an Interesting boat it would influence my persona. I like the Shallop, and I might end up going that route. The Curach might be another good idea.


So, What I'm looking for


I live in Cleveland So I'd like a boat that I can sail and row on the lake in good weather.


Something big enough that two people could camp in it. I figure something this big would mean it could carry a few adults for day trips.


Trailerable with a class I hitch.


Traditional look and building techniques where possible, modern when not.


Traditional materials when economically feasible. Obviously I want a wooden boat, but if I cant use period wood I don't think it will be the end of the world. Same for sails. I figure epoxies will be necessary because its going to spend a good deal of time dry. The ability to mount an out board would be great, for times when I just want to sail.




Christopher

[Thorne]

Sounds like it would be this one, then. Plans from Oughtred. Join the Oughtred Yahoo Group for more info.

http://www.viking-boats.com/Images/2003_0113Faeringafloat0035.jpg

Most SCA boats are Viking-style, so this will fit right in. Pick your personna first, that's my advice.

[wtarzia]

Probably the medieval boats resembled the late Viking ships in any event, especiall the cargo type, knarrs. Skin boats seem to have been mostly an Irish phenomenon (they ran out of trees earlier than Britain, perhaps). Estuary boats, more likely to be preserved in the mud, have bneen recently dug up, but they do not seem to be channel-crossing boats (the deep double-ended Viking type is still the best bet).

If I were you, I would study the images from the Bayeux Tapestry closely, where you can see some boats ca. 1066 from the Norman invasion. As the Normans were Frenchified Vikings (at least the elite were) you might again be back to the basic Norse hull.

Since you set a very early date as the lower boundary (after Romans withdrew), then might not some Roman designs have persisted? And perhaps you need to study the boat found in a Germanic iron age "hoard" deposit, such as the Nydam boat -- a long plank-keel (or keel-less) canoe type boat, but showing the evolutionary basis of the Northern hull. The Beowulf epic depicts sailing craft. The language dates around 800 AD, the basic story patterns perhaps earlier. Beowulf seems to depict the basic Norse boat but details are lacking except for poetic images of the "curved stem."

Of course the good old dug-out designs probably persisted a long while, all over.

[Thorne]

I haven't sailed at an SCA event in decades, but back in the day we used to go out and do the Pyrate Thang on ski boats at certain venues with lakes. Amazing what a sword-waving crew in a small boat can get from thrilled / bored powerboaters -- cold beer was the usual loot...

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The Beowulf epic depicts sailing craft. The language dates around 800 AD, the basic story patterns perhaps earlier. Beowulf seems to depict the basic Norse boat but details are lacking except for poetic images of the "curved stem."



Whatever makes you say that?

:confused:

This isn't a Norse boat.

http://www.maritimewoodbridge.org.uk/images/SaeWylfing-rudder.jpg

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

So about 500 to 1500AD...1000 years. Check out other mid-European boats as after the demise of the Roman legions about 400AD in Britain, the Anglos, Saxons and Jutes conquered the eastern sections of the isles (excepting Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall); dividing the place into five kingdoms. The English really aren't so exclusivelly English.

"Medieval" means "middle ages". 500 AD was near the fall of Rome and the begining of the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages lasted to, at least, ±1000 AD and maybe a bit later depending on what region you are talking about.
Once you get into the Middle Ages the deforestation of Europe started and the rise of the noble classes meant the wood belonged to the guy with the biggest army. It took organizations like the Hanseatic League that had economic muscle to acquire the trees needed for big time boatbuilding. It was outfits like trading organizations that started advancing ship design toward what we see in the 1500s. Ships like the Baltic Cog and it's predicessors were the state of the art in their day.

[wtarzia]

Whatever makes you say that?

--- The original Old English words are "wunden stefna" or 'ship with a wound or curved stem' from line 220 of the poem based on the Klaeber transliteration. -- Wade

[Peerie Maa]

This is too early, but I expect that boat building tecjhniques evolved slowly.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VKljt2MRsckC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=Barlands+Farm++Boat&source=bl&ots=9KyVo82pcW&sig=mfU5wvDEd6rk7McGC3wv74QzXRI&hl=en&ei=Q2RnSuPDJtGNjAeczsilAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

So if you do not want to go the norse - Saxon clinker built route, this will give you some ideas for the older Celtic = west europe tradition.

[johnw]

Get yourself a copy of Archaeology of the Boat, by Basil Greenhill, and you might find the sort of thing you're looking for.

The early Anglo-Saxon boats tended not to have keels, which means you'd do more rowing than on a viking vessel.

The term 'dark age' has gone out of style, but from the fall of Rome to the Christianization of the vikings wouldn't be a bad way to designate it. By 1550 you're getting more into the Renaissance, so you might want to go a little earlier. On the other hand, some types changed very slowly. There's a 1697 Admiralty wherry in American Small Sailing Craft that could as easily be from 1600 or before, and a 14' yawl boat from 1706 that the same could be said of. I think the wherry type would have been used by medeival gentlmen, so it gives you a lot of flexibility for your character.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_Qk62rRa2hGc/SmdmTyFNRqI/AAAAAAAABBQ/bTJR9tk2Iaw/s720/Top-11.jpg

I've never been to an SCA event, though a couple ex-girlfreinds joined it. Like the French Foreign Legion, it issued them a new identity so they could forget and be forgotten, I suppose.

[obscured by clouds]

--- The original Old English words are "wunden stefna" or 'ship with a wound or curved stem' from line 220 of the poem based on the Klaeber transliteration. -- Wade

The Beowulf saga is the first English poem written +/- 800AD but is set in denmark and particularly the Baltic/Swedish side... so I'd expect to see a more nordic boat depicted, rather than a more Anglo saxon or lower northern sea boat.

Interestingly latest DNA genetic markers show that teh saxons as a race or culture were probaly in the south and east of Britain well before the supposed anglosaxon invasion [which appeares to be mainly Angles and only an elite at that.

one would expect that saxon boats would be on both sides of the channel from post roman times onwards?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

--- The original Old English words are "wunden stefna" or 'ship with a wound or curved stem' from line 220 of the poem based on the Klaeber transliteration. -- Wade

Gewat þa ofer wægholm, winde gefysed,
flota famiheals fugle gelicost,
oðþæt ymb antid oþres dogores
wundenstefna gewaden hæfde
þæt ða liðende land gesawon,
brimclifu blican, beorgas steape,
side sænæssas; þa wæs sund liden,
eoletes æt ende. þanon up hraðe

Then moved o'er the waters by might of the wind
that bark like a bird with breast of foam,
till in season due, on the second day,
the curved prow such course had run
that sailors now could see the land,
sea-cliffs shining, steep high hills,
headlands broad. Their haven was found,
their journey ended.

OK :)

My point was that the Sutton Hoo ship pre-dates the Norse ships by two hundred years - there is no reason to ascribe to the Vikings the perfectly adequate shipbuilding skills of the Anglo-Saxons. ;)

[johnw]

I have it. You build a miniature xebec and become a corsair raiding the northern coast for slaves.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shire/6423/Ships/xebec.jpg

There are lines in Architectura Navalis Mercatoria, and Dover has come out with a cheap version of that book.

[johnw]

Gewat þa ofer wægholm, winde gefysed,
flota famiheals fugle gelicost,
oðþæt ymb antid oþres dogores
wundenstefna gewaden hæfde
þæt ða liðende land gesawon,
brimclifu blican, beorgas steape,
side sænæssas; þa wæs sund liden,
eoletes æt ende. þanon up hraðe

Then moved o'er the waters by might of the wind
that bark like a bird with breast of foam,
till in season due, on the second day,
the curved prow such course had run
that sailors now could see the land,
sea-cliffs shining, steep high hills,
headlands broad. Their haven was found,
their journey ended.

OK :)

My point was that the Sutton Hoo ship pre-dates the Norse ships by two hundred years - there is no reason to ascribe to the Vikings the perfectly adequate shipbuilding skills of the Anglo-Saxons. ;)


It's almost a distinction without a difference. From Wikipedia:


Origins (AD 400–600)

Main article: Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_invasion_of_Britain)
The great 8th century Anglo-Saxon historian, Bede (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bede), identified the Anglo-Saxons as the descendants of three Germanic tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples): [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo_Saxons#cite_note-4)


The Angles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles), who may have come from Angeln (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angeln), and Bede wrote that their whole nation came to Britain [6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo_Saxons#cite_note-5), leaving their former land empty. The name 'England' or 'Ænglaland' originates from this tribe. [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo_Saxons#cite_note-6)
The Saxons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons), from Lower Saxony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Saxony) (German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Niedersachsen, Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)). The Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language) and Scottish Gaelic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic) words for English people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_people) (Sasanach/Sasannach) and England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) (Sasana/Sasainn) and the Welsh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language) word for English people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_people) (Saesneg) come from this tribe.
The Jutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutes), from the Jutland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutland) peninsula.



So the Anglo-Saxon invasion included Jutes, who were from where? Present-day Denmark. Not that Angeln was far away from Denmark, either.

[wtarzia]

My point was that the Sutton Hoo ship pre-dates the Norse ships by two hundred years - there is no reason to ascribe to the Vikings the perfectly adequate shipbuilding skills of the Anglo-Saxons. ;)

--- My point is that the Northern shipbuidling tradition is probably of the 'horizon type' such that people within walking and sailing distance and whose languages are close to mutually intelligible probably share the same stages of ship-evolution. The early Germans were probably doing the same thing as the early Danish and Swedes, etc. If we wanted to go back further, we could bring in the Norse Bronze Age ship carvings -- the earliest (I think) attestations to ship building in the north, and say that the plank tradition started there. But that would be pushing the archaeological record too far, most likely.

However, the Nydam ship predates Sutton Hoo, for that matter.
Todd (1975, 187, The Northern Barbarians -- unfortunate title!) introduces these finds as follows: "The most celebrated cult places of the early Germans are the rich and in many respects well preserved votive deposits which have been recovered from peat-bogs in Denmark and Schleswig. [The four main deposits at Thorsbjerg, Nydam, Vimose, and Kragehul comprised] ...masses of war equipment both Roman and German, two complete ships, elaborately decorated personal ornaments, clothing of outstanding quality, Roman imported goods and hundreds of more humdrum objects in pottery, wood, and leather. " I would not feel too bad calling it the northern ship building tradition. But I think I strayed from the thread insofar as I misread the original intent: the poster was asking about small boats, and most of the types we are discussing aree of the large type. Then surely the best boat for him is the Norse type in the 15-30 foot range. There's a beautiful reconstruction of one in the Irish National Museum I saw a few years ago, but I forget its supposed provenance. It resembles the one you posted the picture of. -- Wade

[wtarzia]

...Interestingly latest DNA genetic markers show that teh saxons as a race or culture were probaly in the south and east of Britain well before the supposed anglosaxon invasion [which appeares to be mainly Angles and only an elite at that. ...

--- The Romans hired a lot of German mercenaries. But these Germans stayed in Britain for so long they had ample time to settle in, marry, raise kids and grandkids, and commincate with relatives across the channel, so that I am not at all surprised that their DNA is well mixed and predates a less welcome immigration. Makes me wonder to what extent the invasions pitted 'cousin against cousin' and 'boat building tradition against boat building tradition' ;-) -- Wade

[obscured by clouds]

--- The Romans hired a lot of German mercenaries. But these Germans stayed in Britain for so long they had ample time to settle in, marry, raise kids and grandkids, and commincate with relatives across the channel, so that I am not at all surprised that their DNA is well mixed and predates a less welcome immigration. Makes me wonder to what extent the invasions pitted 'cousin against cousin' and 'boat building tradition against boat building tradition' ;-) -- Wade

actually I think it was pre-roman the Belgae were a germanic tribe which Julius Ceaser thought were present both sides of the channel 'their language differs little from one another' and the Romans called that part of the channel from the narrowest point west to the Solent area as the 'saxon shore' but I digress. I suspect that the boats used would be a fairly consistent type all the way from here up into Jutland.

Stephen Oppenheimer's very interesting books on the peopling of the world and in particular the British Isles opens up a whole new vista of ancient seafaring, particularly if you believe in Cunliffes assertion of a pre-neolithic Atlantic trade route from Iberia up the west coast and over to scandinavia.

but what do I know - a mere dilletante :D and welsh to boot!

[johnw]

Pre-neolithic? That's more than 35,000 years ago. Neanderthals were still the population of Europe.

[zertgold]

http://www.macau-traveltips.com/pics/portuguese-caravel.jpg
Portuguese Caravel - in use as early as 1440.

[zertgold]

This artist, Peter Monamy, lived between 1681 and 1749. I believe the below is form 1730, but it shows a lot of smaller craft:
http://www.encore-editions.com/Nautical/Nautical1x/Peter_Monamy_-_The_Fleet_at_the_Nore_Preparing_to_Sail.jpg

[zertgold]

Here are some dutch boats from 1680:
http://www.encore-editions.com/Nautical/Nautical3x/William_van_de_Velde_the_Younger_-_The_Gouden_Leeuw.jpg

[johnw]

There's a very good book on caravels:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1844860140/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=304485901&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1557507554&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0G2Y6ZVVB5VYYM9JRV5F

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518E7H30HNL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[Woxbox]

I think the conundrum is this: from what boats did the shallop develop? It is clearly different from the Norse boats, but from what I have read, no one can say with certainty what its predecessors looked like. The replica I showed above is carvel below the waterline and clinker above. Interesting and the result of some careful research. One thing for sure, no one can tell you with certainty that any boat you build is wrong, but can you say that it is right?

[wtarzia]

actually I think it was pre-roman the Belgae were a germanic tribe which Julius Ceaser ...

--- Yes, but the Romans post-conquest hired pacified German mercenaries as well. There are archaeological studies of their communities showing the differences between them and their Roman and native British assemblages, ie, the evidence of Roman-british-Germanic ethnicity. [ note added later: These people were called the "Foederati" Germans I believe, though I may have the spelling wrong. The 'federated' German ethnic groups]. -- Wade

[wtarzia]

Pre-neolithic? That's more than 35,000 years ago. Neanderthals were still the population of Europe.

--- I think he means that hunter-gatherer pre-agricultural/pastoral economy of Europe, wherein dug-out canoes (or skin boats) might be used for long-distance coastal communication. Pre-Neolithic in Europe means anything a little older than ~2500 BC, not necessarily back to the Neanderthals. There was also an article in Current Anthropology fairly recently about even older coastal migrations before the Pacific drained into the ice sheets to explain Human expansion out there -- simple watercraft were posed as the way to cross the Wallace Line, etc. -- Wade

[johnw]

Ah, so neolithic hunter-gatherers as opposed to neolithic agrarian societies. Got it.

Neolithic hunter-gatherers settled Australia 30,000 years ago, and there was no land bridge, so I'd say boats have been with us for a while.

[Bruce Taylor]

--- The original Old English words are "wunden stefna" or 'ship with a wound or curved stem' from line 220 of the poem based on the Klaeber transliteration. -- Wade

When used of objects, "windan" usually suggests twisting, looping or braiding, as in ""wunden gold" (gold twisted into rings), "wundenfeax" (braided hair), and "wundenmael" (for which Klaeber gives "sword with curved markings'...presumably, decorative meanders). That makes me want to speculate that the kenning "wundenstefna" (usually rendered simply as "curved prow") is meant to evoke an ornamental curve, like the carved volute of the Oseberg ship (or possibly a meandering decorative motif, like the zoomorphs on the animal headposts from Oseberg). There may also be a hint of swift arcing movement (as in "waelspere windan," Maldon 322, and "hremmas wundon" 106).

[Alan H]

Might I suggest the birlinn? A birlinn is the Hebridean Galley, active from the 10th - 14th century in Scotland.

some links..

http://www.mallaigheritage.org.uk/exhibit/galleys.htm

http://www.birlinn.org

As a complete and total aside, I imagine Vingilot to be a birlinn of light colored wood, with a small cabin. Had I unlimited resources, both $$ and time, I'd commission one.

Instead, I will build a much smaller daughtership, distantly related in shape, if not construction techniques. I may not pay the Valar a visit, but I'll settle for the other side of the Bay and a quiet achorage.

[obscured by clouds]

Pre-neolithic? That's more than 35,000 years ago. Neanderthals were still the population of Europe.

er not quite.... maybe I should have said post Ice Age [or last glacial maximum] but certainly by the end of the late paleolithic there seemed to be a significant amount of journeying along the western european seaboard emanating from the Iberian refugia [as shown by the main groupings of mDNA along the Atlantic coast]. I'm sure further archaeological finds of a boat type nature will reinforce this fairly solid hypothesis.

[wtarzia]

Ah, so neolithic hunter-gatherers as opposed to neolithic agrarian societies. Got it.

Neolithic hunter-gatherers settled Australia 30,000 years ago, and there was no land bridge, so I'd say boats have been with us for a while.

--- I am not sure that 30,000 YBP (years before present) people can be called Neolithic. That is closer to the Paleolithic. Neolithic is more of a term applied to the European "stone age" and implies a pre-metallic culture that has adopted agricultural, or at least horticulture and perhaps pastoralism. The Neolithic thus traces these economic developments as they went through the Near East and Europe. The Neolithic in one part of Europe might go back say 6,000 YBP and in the fringes (last to feel waves of new ideas) as late as perhaps 3,500 YBP (do not quote me on these dates; no doubt I am wrong to some degree). However, terms aside, I do agree that some kind of watercraft existed around 30,000 YBP to cross the Wallace Line and get to Australia eventually. -- Wade

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

When used of objects, "windan" usually suggests twisting, looping or braiding, as in ""wunden gold" (gold twisted into rings), "wundenfeax" (braided hair), and "wundenmael" (for which Klaeber gives "sword with curved markings'...presumably, decorative meanders). That makes me want to speculate that the kenning "wundenstefna" (usually rendered simply as "curved prow") is meant to evoke an ornamental curve, like the carved volute of the Oseberg ship (or possibly a meandering decorative motif, like the zoomorphs on the animal headposts from Oseberg). There may also be a hint of swift arcing movement (as in "waelspere windan," Maldon 322, and "hremmas wundon" 106).

wundenstefna gewaden hæfde
þæt ða liðende land gesawon,
brimclifu blican, beorgas steape,
side sænæssas; þa wæs sund liden,
eoletes æt ende.

I think we ought to explain that in epic poetry, a "kenning" is a descriptive phrase used, rather often, in the interest of:

(a) giving the poet a chance to draw breath and remember what comes next

(b) espescially in North European alliterative epics, like this one, keeping the metre.

The listeners are expected to know the allusion.

Homer's "wine-dark sea" is probably the most famous kenning - (were the ancient Greeks all red/green colourblind?)

Anyway, we've got a wound, or wended, or wound up, or curved, or curving, stem, or prow, or stern, or sternpost, here (it need not be a prow, because in another poem, rather later, Christ is referred to as "steoran ofer staefnan")

Which leads one to think that Anglo-Saxon ships were double-ended, as indeed the surviving remains indicate that they were.

An interesting survival of "wunden / winden" is found in the Thames estuary where we still speak of a sailing vessel "wending" when she goes through the wind.

(we now return you to your regular programming...);)

[damnyankee]

Because its such an interesting book, I've started re-reading "To Rule the waves" By Arthur Herman. Tudor Sailors did some freaking cool things, especially during Elizabeth's reign. AS much as it makes some Scadians cranky, I'm really leaning toward a very late period persona, a contemporary of Frobisher or Hawkins. This puts me in the 1560-1580 range, which makes that shallop even more appropriate. Thanks for your input guys, its amazing the amount of experise in this group.

Christopher

[Bruce Taylor]

[B]
An interesting survival of "wunden / winden" is found in the Thames estuary where we still speak of a sailing vessel "wending" when she goes through the wind.

Interesting! By "going through the wind" you mean tacking/coming about, right?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Tudor Sailors did some freaking cool things, especially during Elizabeth's reign. AS much as it makes some Scadians cranky, I'm really leaning toward a very late period persona, a contemporary of Frobisher or Hawkins.
Christopher

Try Sir Richard Grenville?

Taking on fifty-three Spanish ships with one ship, and causing enough damage to sink fifteen of them - seems to fit the bill!

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/renaissance/revenge/default.aspx

[damnyankee]

Try Sir Richard Grenville?

Taking onfifty-three Spanish ships with one ship, and causing enough damage to sink fifteen of them - seems to fit the bill!


Yep, hes obviously very cool too. However, an SCA persona is not some one who did exist, but could have existed.


Christopher

[damnyankee]

There's a very good book on caravels:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1844860140/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=304485901&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1557507554&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0G2Y6ZVVB5VYYM9JRV5F

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518E7H30HNL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg
I have the series mate on the Alert Naval Cutter. Its a great series.

Christopher

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I think the "pinnass" in which Davis explored his Strait, leaving his (slightly) bigger vessel fishing for cod on the Grand Banks, to pay his backers, might be a very interesting little vessel.

Actually, I think John Davis was the greatest of all the Elizabethan navigators.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Davis_(English_explorer))

[zertgold]

If that is the period your are interested in, don't forget to look up Grace O'Malley. (Gráinne Ní Mháille). She had a good round of beating on the English, and other old fashioned piracy.

[wtarzia]

... I think we ought to explain that in epic poetry, a "kenning" is a descriptive phrase used, rather often, in the interest of: ...

--- The formula or kenning was also probably a cognitive unit of reality, so to speak, not to disallow its function for the oral-formulaic poet. Not all ships would have the wound stem of the Oseberg ship, for example, but the general curve of ends of these boats might be construed as such. These stem-stern shapes are the kind favored in surf-landing boats or in boats accustomed to sailing in breaking seas, since the curve can fit the shape of a following wave and reduce the chance for digging in and thus loss of maneuverability leading to a broach (the Hawaiian canoe hulls are an example) -- this does not seem out of place for the northern tradition of relatively shallow-draft boats making beach landings. So 'wunden stefna' may call up all other times such stems resonated in both poetic and maritime reality for beachable sea-boats. And that is all that I can squeeze out of this phrase, damp-dry ;-) -- Wade

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Interesting! By "going through the wind" you mean tacking/coming about, right?

Right!

She wears (gybes) or she wends (tacks).

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

--- The formula or kenning was also probably a cognitive unit of reality, so to speak, not to disallow its function for the oral-formulaic poet. Not all ships would have the wound stem of the Oseberg ship, for example, but the general curve of ends of these boats might be construed as such. These stem-stern shapes are the kind favored in surf-landing boats or in boats accustomed to sailing in breaking seas, since the curve can fit the shape of a following wave and reduce the chance for digging in and thus loss of maneuverability leading to a broach (the Hawaiian canoe hulls are an example) -- this does not seem out of place for the northern tradition of relatively shallow-draft boats making beach landings. So 'wunden stefna' may call up all other times such stems resonated in both poetic and maritime reality for beachable sea-boats. And that is all that I can squeeze out of this phrase, damp-dry ;-) -- Wade

How extraordinarily well put!

Please accept my congratulations (and I am going to nick, and re-use "cognitive unit of reality"!) ;)

[flatwater]

I know this is an old thread, but I second the suggestion of the Graveny boat. The original was about 13 meters, which is a lot more than you have in mind, but the style and methods could probably be downsized to provide something suitable for reenactment purposes. Graveny is described at length, with numerous illos, in Basil Greenhill's "Archaeology of the Boat."
I've tried to upload an image of the lines plan, but no matter how small I compress the file (down to 22 KB), the forum application keeps telling me that I've exceeded my limit. Since this is the first time I've uploaded anything to this forum, that must be wrong. If anyone can help with this, I'll be glad to try uploading again. Thanks.
Also from the same source, check out the Somerset Turf Boat, which is probably little changed from the Medieval period.

[john welsford]

From the Shorter Oxford dictionary --Nautical "wend". Turn ( a ship, a ships bow) to the opposite direction.

John Welsford


Interesting! By "going through the wind" you mean tacking/coming about, right?

[john welsford]

Can I suggest that you get your hands on "Architectura Navalis Mercatoria" By Chapman.
It is a book by the first man to really develop the science of drawing boat lines, and building from design. First published in 1778 it has a large number of very good line drawings including the little boat mentioned as featuring in WoodenBoat, and others all the way up to full sized East Indiamen and Frigates.
Published by Adlard Coles of London, my copy has no ISBN Number .

It includes in its many vessels shown, a range of small boats from 10 Swedish Feet (0.296 Metre) upward, and has many which will have been centuries old at the time of writing so will be well within the time frame required as well as being of a practical size for a building project.

There are lines drawings, plus in some cases construction details.

I particularly like item number 10 on plate L which is a 25 ft Greenland Whaleboat for four oars and the 22 5/12 ft Norway yawl on the same page.

For those interested in the techniques and history of marine design, Chapman was among the first to use Simpsons Rule for calculating displacement from cross sectional areas, and there is a section explaining the origin and development of this rule and the drawing methods that allowed it to be used.
As an aside, Chapman also used a very simple model towing tank.

John Welsford


I know there isn't a whole lot of information out there, but I'm looking for information on medieval small boats. Mostly North Atlantic boats, not viking though, ideally english merchant boats that crossed the channel. I know its a bit of a long shot, but I figure some on here can point me in the right direction.

Christopher

[David Cockey]

Consider a curragh or coracle if you're interested in an "ancient" small boat whiich is relatively simple and inexpensive to build, and is suited to living out of the water and being trailered or car-topped. They go back to pre-history, and were formerly common in Britain and Ireland. While most are close to round or square, others had more of what we think of today as a boat shape. Construction is relatively simple - lash together a basket like frame and cover it with fabric or hides.

[wtarzia]

Consider a curragh or coracle if you're interested in an "ancient" small boat ...

--- Indeed. And you can visit this interesting site -- http://sites.google.com/site/boynecurrach/home (http://sites.google.com/site/boynecurrach/home) -- to see what a modern builder is doing with them on a river that only recently saw the end of their use in subsistence activities. I visited this place a few weeks ago on a bicycle trip (a few details on the thread in people/places, "newgrange curraghs"): the corracle/curragh is alive and well (of course, on the west Coast they still use them for racing. The new book, "Traditional Boats of Ireland is a fine source with more about them and wooden-plank boats of ireland too. The north coast boats include Norse-derived designs which may also interest you (interesting exercise in what features are being maintained in small boats deriving from medieval times?). -- Wade

[Thorne]

I've tried to upload an image of the lines plan, but no matter how small I compress the file (down to 22 KB), the forum application keeps telling me that I've exceeded my limit. Since this is the first time I've uploaded anything to this forum, that must be wrong. If anyone can help with this, I'll be glad to try uploading again. Thanks.


Here’s how to post photos on this forum:

First - don’t attach photos. Only a tiny version will display.

Second - Post the photos on the web. Use your own website, or a free image hosting service like www.flickr.com, picturetrail, photobucket, etc.

Once posted on the web, right-click the photo to copy the URL (web address).

{For Flickr only: view the image by clicking on it. Then click the small link named ALL SIZES with the magnifying glass icon. Once the larger image is displayed, scroll down and you'll see two options for linking the image on websites. Select and copy the second one -- or just right-click the enlarged image to get the image location.}

Always test first by pasting the photo URL into the location field (http:// ) of a web browser and see if the photo displays.

Third - once posted on the web, try this procedure while logged in to this Forum:

1. Click the “User CP” link in the browser window in the top left of the menu bar.

2. Click the “Edit Options” link about halfway down the left column.

3. In the “Misc Options” at the bottom of the next page, select “Enhanced Interface” from the pulldown list.

4. Once this interface has been selected, in any “Reply” window you can click the “insert photo” icon --> a little yellow square icon with the stamp in the upper right corner, the mountains in the lower center. http://woodenboat.com/forum/images/editor/insertimage.gif

5. Once the little dialog box titled “Please enter the URL of your image” comes up, paste the URL of the photo in the field.

TROUBLESHOOTING:
If unsure of the procedure, test first by pasting the photo URL into the location field (http:// ) of a web browser.

Remember, the PHOTO URL will end in .jpg, not .htm or html. URLs ending in .htm are the page that the image is at, not the photo location itself. If the photo URL ends in other code, try deleting everything after the “xxxxxx.jpg” part of the URL to get it to display on web forums.