Adding complication: sail track

[ricardo de oliveira]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid49/p6b66e4fe97f13fef368bb2c87ab668dd/fcb4d11c.jpg
Which way you choose to go if you're living in a place where nobody's building boats so the stores don't have those kind of goodies for sale and, then, you have to build everything from scratch using raw materials. By the way, this is a sail track and a sail slide for a 20 ft mast.

[Pete Dorr]

Ricardo

How about skipping the track and using hoops ?

If you are set on the track it would depend on what you can get your hands on. One additional track idea is a t track where the sliders go around the track. Kind of the reverse of the t & channel that you show.

Or you could cut a groove in your mast or add pieces of wood such that you have that tube shape.

If it were me I'd go with hoops though.

[Todd Bradshaw]

What type of sail and rig does the boat have? As Pete said, on a mast that small, you may be better off using something more simple, and probably without being able to notice any change in performance unless it's a high-speed, racing design. Adding track to such a small mast will also stiffen the mast noticably, which is sometimes not a good thing.

[brian.cunningham]

What kind of sailing rig are you using?

[Beowolf]

My old Lightning had a track like the one on the right (round). There was a rope sewn into the luft of the sail that would fit into the track. But this was for a 144 sq foot sail on a 27 foot mast.

Later

Jeff

[Keith Wilson]

For small boats, robands (little bits of string tied around the mast) or rope lacing work well, cost almost nothing and take very little effort. Otherwise, routing a groove for the boltrope of the sail before the mast is glued up used to be pretty standard practice; the shape was copied by the first makers of extruded aluminum masts.

[Nicholas Carey]

If you're using track, dont go with the kind you show pictures of -- internal slides. They have a most annoying tendency to jam.

Go with track that uses external cars instead:

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/images_products/312.jpg

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/images_products/315.jpg

Brass sail track and slides is available from Toplicht http://www.toplicht.de (Germany), Classic Marine http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/ (UK) among other places.

Stainless can be had (among other places) from Sail-Rite http://www.sailrite.com/ (US)

Given that you're in Brazil, ordering from Europe might be better -- you'll get metric (12mm) track/slides instead of Anglo (1/2-inch) track/slides.

Ordering it shouldn't be to difficult -- I believe it comes in something like 6 foot (2m) lengths.

5/8 inch (16mm) track runs about 10 Reals per foot from Classic Marine (exclusive of shipping, of course).

[ricardo de oliveira]

Yes, the idea is stiffening the mast a little and get a reefing sistem with a halyard. And I'm not sure if this is going to work nicely with rope laced sails.
It's a cat-ketch rig. The CS17, from B&B.
Laced sails is by far the surest way to go and it's one of the designer's choices. But I'm building the spars myself, birdsmouth way, with a wood nobody tested before ( paraná pine), although it's mechanical properties are in theory very similar to the douglas fir ones.But it's a tropical pine and it's not old growth. "Impredictable" is the right word? I know the track is not the better way of hardening a mast but...
And, being very far from the boat stores and kind of allergic of web+credit card shopping I'd rather build then buy stuff.
Thanks for your time.
Ricardo

[Ian McColgin]

Your ability to layout the grain and glue lines with the bird's mouth construction will give a wonderful mast for this application and a laced on sail is very nice, shippy, and perfectly reefable.

If you've not a reference that shows how to lay the lacing in that one side then the other manner (not a spiral!) I am sure that Todd will post one of his elegant illustrations when the time comes.

G'luck

[Nicholas Carey]

Well if you want to build your own...

Try building a composite sail track of bar stock screwed/bolted to a wooden riser.

First, get stock 5/8-in or 3/4-in slides.

Get brass, bronze or monel bar stock sized to fit your slides...maybe 1/8-in by 3/4-in and the right length for your application. The slides fit onto the bar stock and slide easily.

Mill out a nice piece of mahogany lumber as long as the sail track. It should be about 1/4-in high and 1/4-in or so narrower than the bar stock -- you want sufficient overlap when you stack the bar stock on the riser that the sail slide will slide on nicely without touching the riser.

Drill and countersink the bar stock every 4 inches or so for flathead screws. The size and length you need, of course, depends on your application.

Now stack the bar stock on the riser. Using the holes drilled in the barstock for layout, mark and drill the riser for the screws you'll be using to fasten the barstock to the riser and the spar.

Mark the centerline on the spar and drill the spar for your screws. Assemble the whole composite and screw it to the boom.

Your new sail track should be a T-shape in cross section. Something like this (nothing like a quality drawing tool!):

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: fixed;">+----+--------+-----+
+ \ / + &lt;---- Bar stock
+--+---+----+----+--+
| | | |
| | | | &lt;---- wood riser
+---+----+----+</pre>[/QUOTE]Note that you might have to hollow the side of the riser that mates with the spar to match the curvature of the spar.

There you go. About as easy as it gets.

[SailBoatDude]

Building a track, external of the mast, seems a bit heavy and this stick isn't very big. I'm not sure I'd want the added weight on the stick, when a stamped track (read much lighter then solid stock screwed down on more material) has got to be simpler and lighter. Mail order could solve your can't find a ship's store/on line paranoia problems and this track is readily available most everywhere. The external cars on a track is less prone to jam and they jam when you need them most, trying to shorten down 'cause you waited to long already. 1/2" track will do or 12 mm to everyone else in the world.

Since it's a cat ketch is it a free standing rig? If it is, the spar dimensions will be bigger then a stayed rig and a sock style, hoops or lacing may be a better way to go. All could be rigged with halyards and work fine. Most rigs with stays have some support for the mast dependent on the main sail and jib in opposition which provides support for the stick. The practice of dropping the main on a ketch or yawl is not recommended for long periods by mast builders.

Also on unstayed masts, the bend is designed to spill when wind strength gets above a practical limit for the sticks. This is a safety feature, intended by all designers of free standing rigs of typical construction. I'm not talking about the composite sticks come of rage lately, but solid or built up masts. The point I'm getting at is, increasing the stiffness of a stick, designed to spill wind at a certain wind strengths, seems to me, that you may be asking more of this stick then was intended by the designer or could be absorbed by the additional stiffening. She may turn out to be quite stiff and hold to a blow (that would have normally been spilled off) capsizing the boat or breaking the sticks.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Here is the design:
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17.htm

After looking at the rig, there is no way on Earth I would seriously consider putting tracks on those masts. It just isn't needed and stiffening-up the masts of sprit-boom sails can rob you of the ability to tension the snotter to flatten and de-power the sail in a blow. I'd use lacing, robands or Jack Dillon's rope-hoop-style fasteners with toggles (there is a photo in one of the recent "mast hoop" threads in B&R.

[ricardo de oliveira]

Sailboatdude: it's not paranoia. It's about having a poor Reais(our currency)/US Dollar rate...
Todd: I insist in this track issue 'cause I'm afraid of having the rope hoops or lacing getting jammed at the mid mast connection.
Thanks for your attention.
Ricardo

[SailBoatDude]

Hoops and lacing are very forgiving on this style of rig. The rig can be tensioned, reefed and brought down with ease. The sloppy nature in which they hold on to the sail and stick makes jamming in these sizes a mistake on the operator rather then the selection of the sail attachment techniques. If you want a track, you can put one on, but there will be some costs to bear other then the money spent. Weight aloft is something designers and racers for centuries have been trying to chip down, the lower the better in most cases, not being able to depower the rig, because of the lack in effectiveness of it's snotter, small craft are subject to balance and trim changes much more so then larger boats.

As much water as there is in your country, there has to be an outfit to carry most of what you need. A quick search for me on "sailing needs - Brazil" netted over 900 hits just now. One of these places should, or could know someplace, who will help you get the parts you need without taking the currency exchange hit in the wallet. What do the local wind baggers or builders do? Stop down at the shore and talk to owners, shipwrights, marina yard crews and the like. These are the people who will do you the most good in regard to local availably for parts, hardware, etc.

What does the designer think about all this?

[Todd Bradshaw]

If the designer is any good, he's probably not too keen on the idea. It looks to me like the normal rig may not even use halyards in the first place. This isn't uncommon with small, high-aspect sprit-boom rigs. The sail is laced to a tapered mast and furled by dropping the sprit and either wrapping the sail around the mast or rolling it from the clew end so that it can lie furled up against the back of the mast, as on a Dovekie. In use, this is never going to be a system like a Marconi with jiffy-reefing installed. Reefing is always going to involve unshipping the boom to lower the sail and then reattaching the boom, readjusting the snotter and bundling up the excess sail along the foot. A track is not going to make any of that easier and will be interfered with by the snotter tackle surrounding the mast.

This seems to me to be another instance of builders buying proven designs, second-guessing the designer before even building the boat and making changes to the rig - whether they have the technical expertise to do it or not. No insult intended Ricardo, but I think this change, as simple as it might seem at first, is a lot more involved than you might think and I don't give it much chance of improving the rig or how it works.

[Bayboat]

Ricardo, Todd is right. One of the cardinal rules of boatbuilding is to stick to the design, or consult the designer if you want to change something. If you don't like the way the designer has the boat rigged, go to a different design. I can't see why you would have any trouble with the sail laced to the mast. The quickest way to reduce sail is to slack the outhaul and bunch the sail against the mast. If you lace the sail permanently to the mast, you can run a light line from the masthead down to the partners; this is used to wrap the sail in a spiral, holding it against the mast. Or you can just wrap the upper part of the sail and go with the lower part until the wind slacks off. Or if you want to reef using reef points, of course you will need a halyard, and robands of light line or the rope hoops suggested by Todd will work fine. Your unstayed birdsmouth mast should be stiff enough without running a piece of metal up it. Ordinary sail track would not be much of a stiffener, and anything heavier might add more weight to the mast than the designer allows for.

[Nicholas Carey]

Ahh...a sharpie rig. Why didn't you say so?

Having racked up not an insignificant number of hours in a [larger] sharpie, I can pretty safely assert that lacing is all you need.

And if you lace it properly, it won't jam on you.

Reefing a sharpie is a little different than other rigs. For starters, the reef point are vertical and parallel to the mast. You have to dump sail, then tie in the reef points as you hoist the sail. Since This shortens the luff, before you can do this you have to release (or at least ease significantly) the snotter (The snotter being the line the controls the sprit, both as sprit halyard and outhaul).

And...Ihave a hard time seeing a snotter rigged in conjunction with a sail track -- it would not be a happy marriage, I'm thinking.
Two resources you'll find useful:

1. Reul Parker's The Sharpie Book, and
2. Brian Toss' The Complete Rigger's Apprentice.
Build the rig as-designed. You'll probably like it. Just remember...if you don't like it, it's easier to convert from a laced on sail to a track than the other way 'round. Worst case, you need to install some more grommets in the luff in addition to the sail track. Removing the track means a lot of holes in the spar to repair. And sharpie masts are usually free to rotate -- something that won't set well with a track.

[ricardo de oliveira]

Yes, I understand completely the point of keeping things easy and to stick with the designer, and Graham Byrne is the perfect one for hearing inexperienced and "creative" builders like me. He even suggested me a sistem with a hardwood carved track and a rope along the luff, if I dare.
Graham first choices are,for sure, lacing or a sail with a pocket in the luff. And the last option would be my choice if I had choose an alloy mast. It's easy to roll such a small sail around the mast for reefing, right? But now I finished with a beautiful wooden mast and I don't want to hidden it in a luff pocket. And my fear about lacing is just because I have never faced one in my life.
I have a connection with a (very) harwood pin already fitted and I'll build a fiberglass sleeve about 2,5mm thick around the connection area. If I carve a 2,5mm rebate in the mast the sleeve will remain flush with the mast surface avoiding any problem with the lacing get jammed etc etc etc.Right? Doubt is: Am I doing a mistake reducing the thickness in 2,5 mm of the mast wall in the connection area?
About the chances of getting used parts around here I insist: it's hard, very hard. When I tell the "salty" guys at the marina I am building a cat-ketch rigged small sharpie out of wood is the same as saying I'm planning to go to the moon with my bike. A sail boat here is 99% a thing made of plastic, white, sloop rigged and named like "Monkey Bussiness" or similar. We are good around here making music and female swim suits. Building "strange" wooden boats like Graham ones are sci-fiction stuff...
And thanks again for your attention and ideas. I'll promise I'll improve my English so your ears doesn't hurt.