Paint your dinghy.

[Candyfloss]

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018548/368295431.jpg

This is where I am up to with my first glued lapstrake project.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018548/368295438.jpg

She is a Des Townson designed yacht's tender, 8ft. long, 4ft wide, built in ply. I want to paint her topsides white to the sheer strake, all the rest varnish.
The question: should I epoxy coat her first, & what paints & varnish are most suitable? Unfortunately here in N.Z. I will not be able to get a lot of the brands you take for granted, so the wider the input the better. Thank you.

[rbgarr]

Try a test patch of varnish on your stem and top several planks where the scarfs are. Not to be a downer, but, it looks like there may be epoxy lines or patches (?) that might not look as good as you hope if finished bright. Or maybe just get them wet with water to get an idea of how they'd look?

Hopefully someone with stain/epoxy/varnish/paint experience will say I'm full of it and give better suggestions for your nice boat.

Good luck!

[RFNK]

You've done such a nice job with this beautiful little boat! I would coat with neat epoxy - two coats. Then add whatever finish you want over that. As the finish wears, you should only need to sand back to the epoxy rather than removing timber. Epoxy finishes look great but with a little dinghy, you might get cracking in an epoxy finish where the hull flexes. Rick

[bob easton]

Why bother with the epoxy at all? Boats were made for many centuries, and lasted for many decades, using non-epoxy finish. If it were mine, I would use only paint (properly undercoated with good primer) and varnish.

Whichever you decide, she's pretty.

[Candyfloss]

rbgar. It is only the sheer strake I will be varnishing, all the rest will be painted. I guess I will just have to live with the scarf scar until I can figure out how to make better scarfs.

Rick. I varnished over epoxy on my Townson 25, & it was not an outstanding success. Maybe I used the wrong varnish, but it peeled off in just one season. I had to re-varnish the cabin sides every season, although the transom fared better. It lasted three seasons, but then the painting fell off too.:eek: These pics are before either of those disasters.


http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018548/369422811.jpg


http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018548/369422806.jpg

Note the family resemblance? Des once said that someone had told him he had only ever designed one boat.:p

[Candyfloss]

Why bother with the epoxy at all? Boats were made for many centuries, and lasted for many decades, using non-epoxy finish. If it were mine, I would use only paint (properly undercoated with good primer) and varnish.

Whichever you decide, she's pretty.

That will seal the end grain in the ply, Bob?

[RFNK]

Rick. I varnished over epoxy on my Townson 25, & it was not an outstanding success. Maybe I used the wrong varnish, but it peeled off in just one season. I had to re-varnish the cabin sides every season, although the transom fared better. It lasted three seasons, but then the painting fell off too.:eek: These pics are before either of those disasters.


Maybe you've been unlucky! I used Goldspar over epoxy on Pipsqueak three years ago and it's held up really well. I still have to revarnish the areas that the boat cover doesn't cover but the cabinsides, coaming etc. are all still great. Rick

[D Happ]

Super newbe here, but shouldn't it be coated with CEPS first, no matter what the finish? http://www.rotdoctor.com/products/cpes.html (CPES)

That sure is beautiful!!

[rbgarr]

CF,

I read your paint/varnish scheme backwards. Good luck!

[Thorne]

Nice boat! I'd be tempted to use several coats of CPES, then hot-coat the final coating of CPES with the paint. Ditto with the varnish -- I've had really good luck varnishing over CPES.

If you are worried about impact or abrasion on the bottom and garboard strake, you might consider epoxy and light fiberglass fabric in that area. Otherwise I wouldn't coat the hull with epoxy -- just adds weight and shouldn't be needed if the ply is good quality and kept painted/varnished.

[oznabrag]

Try a test patch of varnish on your stem and top several planks where the scarfs are. Not to be a downer, but, it looks like there may be epoxy lines or patches (?) that might not look as good as you hope if finished bright. Or maybe just get them wet with water to get an idea of how they'd look?

Hopefully someone with stain/epoxy/varnish/paint experience will say I'm full of it and give better suggestions for your nice boat.

Good luck!

If one wants to get an idea what it would look like under varnish, one should use mineral spirits, not water. They both evaporate completely, but spirits won't raise the grain or cause the wood to swell.

My 2 cents. :)

[Candyfloss]

Unfortunately here in N.Z. I will not be able to get a lot of the brands you take for granted, so the wider the input the better. Thank you.

Culture clash.:D By CPES I take it you mean a really thinned-down epoxy-based saturation product. We call it Everdure. Is that the same?

If one wants to get an idea what it would look like under varnish, one should use mineral spirits, not water.

Here we go again. What does this mean? Mineral spirits, that is. Meths?, turps?, thinners?, denatured alcohol? isopropal alcohol? What? I'm sure you are right about not using water.

I'd be tempted to use several coats of CPES, then hot-coat the final coating of CPES with the paint. Ditto with the varnish -- I've had really good luck varnishing over CPES.

Hot-coat Thorne? You mean paint over the Everdure with whatever while it is still wet?

[John B]

Hot coating=Wet on wet.

[PeterSibley]

turps.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

By CPES I take it you mean a really thinned-down epoxy-based saturation product.

No. It's its own product -- CPES™ Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer. It uses natural timber 'thinners,' not just pre-fab chemical components, and so it's absorbed by wood fibres far more readily than any thinned-down or heated ordinary epoxies. You don't thin it, it's already like water and goes on just as easily. (I believe it may be called "Multi-Primer" elsewhere, but the original CPES was designed and produced by Syd Smith in the US. It's available here in Oz, but I don't know about NZ.)

If you were using it you'd put it on coat-on-coat, wet, until the wood stopped taking it up. (And it would cost you a packet too, by the way.) You would then have to paint or varnish it in order to protect it from UV degradation.

But given that you're going to paint or varnish anyway, why would you want to use anything underneath? Paint sticks to wood, varnish sticks to wood, and it has for hundreds of years -- you don't need to prime with CPES (or anything else) in order to get the first coat to adhere properly.

The only time in my opinion where you'd want to use CPES would be as part of a rot-treatment project, or if you wanted to 'case-harden' the surface locally (as we do with some of our fittings.)

Mike

[D Happ]

The biggest reason to use CPES with plywood lapstrake is because it seals the short grains that run vertical in the plywood planks.

[Thorne]

Actually you can get CPES from other makers than Smith & Co., I think that West Marine and others have their own similar products. But I use Smith's Warm Weather Formula and have had very good results.

As for using it under paint and varnish, Bob Smalser some and others on this Forum who are quite knowledgeable about the topic have recommended it. Bob used to post images of varnish peeling off wood -- wood was good and varnish was roughly intact -- but the bond between the two had failed.

CPES, particularly when hot-coated with the next layer of paint or varnish, is considered by many to be a good primer/sealer for this use. As an added advantage it seals the end grain in plywood, always the weakest part of that material where water and rot can gain access.

[2MeterTroll]

ok so answer the dogon paint question!:)
i am thinking petit but answer quick cause i need to paint this begger as soon as possible.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Lovely boat... :):)

[RFNK]

I don't know anything about CPES but I know that neat epoxy will penetrate the endgrain in ply to seal it well. For extra penetration, do it in a warm place (not NZ - only kidding!) or heat the wood up a bit with a heat gun. Everdure is just epoxy thinned with a solvent. The solvent evaporates out, leaving you with less epoxy where you want it (IMHO). Paint will chip away from the edges of your planks so it's good to have that extra little bit of protection from epoxy (or CPES presumably). A coat or two of neat epoxy will add negligible weight. It's best to give it two coats as the first will lift the grain. Sand the little lumps off before adding the second coat. Rought sand the epoxy prior to adding your undercoat etc. I use coarse wet and dry for this. Rick

[gavinpascoe]

Hi Candyfloss -

Nice Job! Epiphanes is the closest thing we get to CPES over here. I contacted Jamestown distributors and they can't ship due to some kind of ban on flying out some chemicals. I've had the same trouble trying to get a wider paint pallette than lego-like primary colours.

Epiphanes looks good under the goldspar original varnish. I haven't a great deal of experience, but it's worked well so far with Oregon and Mahogany (http://shemara.blogspot.com/2009/04/varnish.html).

I'm making a glued lapstrake tender also, (Meranti marine ply) and have just completed the fitout. If you can hold off a week or so, while I get the sanding done, you can see how you like my results before you begin.

I wouldn't hot coat varnish over Epiphanes: Two or three thinned hot coats of Epiphanes and then let it cure completely before applying the varnish (I follow the instructions and have good results). I've found that at times if you keep plying on the Epiphanes, the wood soon looks like plastic (I guess this is because mahogany doesn't soak up the stuff very well).

I've just finished the 12th coat of varnish over two thinned coats of Everdure on my Oregon mast - looks awesome. I'll post some pics of that soon as well.

[oznabrag]

turps.

Is that what they call it now?

Edited to add: That is a beautiful boat!

[Candyfloss]

Thanks guys for your kind comments & helpful advice.

Gavin: I'm going up to Auck next week, so I'll drop into Burnsco's & inquire about Epifanes. And Goldspar Original.

Rick: I always thought Everdure was just thinned-out epoxy as well. And the Goo Bros specifically advise against this. And thanks for the rest of your advise.

John B.: If you are still out there mate, can you give me your favourite brands? Epiglass? International? Altex?

[Thorne]

As for paint, as a rank amateur I've had better luck with the traditional oil paints than the newer water-based acrylic latex paints -- but that may just be me.

My personal recommendation is to use a relatively common oil-based marine paint -- I like the Rustoleum line but not sure you can get it down there. That way you can be SURE that you can pick it up nearly anywhere to do touchup or recoating jobs without a lot of hassle.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

rbgar. It is only the sheer strake I will be varnishing, all the rest will be painted. I guess I will just have to live with the scarf scar until I can figure out how to make better scarfs.

p

Is that the only scarf?

If so no problems, Make a short decorative overlay with a swoop to glue on top of that section of the bow all they way to the bow.

it will look like it belongs there, and cover up the scarf nicely.

[aldebaran]

Very sweet little thing.
Most small boats are out of the water a lot of time.
I would use oil based varnish and paint and nothing else.
Its prettyer, cheaper, easyer to work with and very easy to top up with time. A bit of sandpaper, clean the good old brush and here we go.

[gavinpascoe]

Hi Candyfloss - As promised: Here is a link to some pictures of my tender. Meranti ply, a few coats of thinned everdure, with goldspar original varnish over the top. Paint is two pot marine coat on the outside. Single pot brightside on the inside. The strips at the sheer are fiji kauri:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yPDVYWjReQo/SpHSqXmf1BI/AAAAAAAABJI/7V8KKlP0v4A/s1600-h/launch+001.jpg

[Candyfloss]

Thank you Gavin. That is a lovely little boat. I'll have pics soon of my own launching. BTY my name is Graeme.

[jclays]

What were the wooden boats (Plywood) painted with in the 1940's and 50's before the practice of fiberglassing? They sat in water year round and seemed to last a very long time. Would CPES followed by coats of a bottom paint on plywood work on plywood boats that would be in the water for several weeks? Ok maybe 1 or 2 weeks. All the other paints ive seen state "For above the waterline only".

[CapnJ2ds]

Hi Candyfloss - As promised: Here is a link to some pictures of my tender. Meranti ply, a few coats of thinned everdure, with goldspar original varnish over the top. Paint is two pot marine coat on the outside. Single pot brightside on the inside. The strips at the sheer are fiji kauri:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yPDVYWjReQo/SpHSqXmf1BI/AAAAAAAABJI/7V8KKlP0v4A/s1600-h/launch+001.jpg
That's a pretty little dinghy, Gavin. That's the RPNYC boatsheds at Oriental Bay, right? Alladin's caves when I was a small boy visiting relatives in Wellington!
And do I understand you also own the old "Shemara"? Another pretty little keeler, and I remember her as being a smart sailer too. For my money Royden Thomas was one of our gifted amateur designers who never got the attention he deserved.

[CapnJ2ds]

Yer good ole treewood does well with ordinary traditional paints, but I think plywood needs the more modern stuff on the ends and edges at least.
I've used 'Everdure' on ply a fair bit, and for things like ply edges use it as a sort of 3-part thing; 1 part A, 1 part B, 1 part 'Everdure' thinner, put on wet-on-wet until it stops going in. Just about any paint will stick to it, after it's cured.
Having said all that, a friend once built a plywood pram dinghy. A couple of years back he caught the bow of it round a pole while shifting berth and pulled the bow transom out. He was a bit annoyed to find the bow was quite dozy as were several other spots. Annoyed that is until he remembered that he'd built the boat out of ordinary construction ply - forty years ago! It had been used hard, quite well looked after, but only painted with house paint.

[jclays]

Seams will be taped and epoxied. Id just rather not sheath the whole boat. Finishing a 12ft skiff and looking to build a 16/18 footer over the winter. Plywood is marine ply A/A grade.

[John B]

Thanks guys for your kind comments & helpful advice.

Gavin: I'm going up to Auck next week, so I'll drop into Burnsco's & inquire about Epifanes. And Goldspar Original.

Rick: I always thought Everdure was just thinned-out epoxy as well. And the Goo Bros specifically advise against this. And thanks for the rest of your advise.

John B.: If you are still out there mate, can you give me your favourite brands? Epiglass? International? Altex?

Hi Graeme, varnish wise, I've used goldspar over the years, deks olje, cetol, everdure and currently have Riada's cabin coamings wooded for uroxsys ( which is a polyurethane similar to coelan).
I don't have experience yet with the uroxsys so I can't really endorse it can I.

For a ply dinghy I think I would get a good two pot seal coat of a product like cpes or everdure for a really hard base sealer. Then you have a choice , go traditional with a good varnish thats easy to touch up from year to year and provides the UV protection.Or bite the bullet and say right, that top strake isn't going to take any wear ... two pot bright it until its shabby and paint it out after that. I did the everdure and varnish to waione's cockpit and it lasted about ten years with touch ups. The problem is with that process is that when its faded and its time to wood it again , its absolute hell to get off and you take so much with it.

Re that scarf in the bow , you know , you could run the top strake bright until just before it and then scollop it up and paint out the front foot. You often see that as a bulwark/ rail detail on larger boats and it would completely remove it visually.

edit: that is one beautiful little dinghy BTW... I love it.

[Candyfloss]

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018548/371810574.jpg

Pretty much what I have decided on John. I went with Altex, mostly because when I phoned them they were very helpful & I could buy direct from the factory at a good price. So two coats of sealer, eight coats of Turps-thinned varnish, keep it under cover. Thanks for your help & interest.

[John B]

Sheesh, are you clairvoyant or summat.:D Or am I .

Thats exactly what I'd imagined.!

[smcafee]

I have a small dingy that I epoxied first (West System) before I varnished on the inside and painted (oil house paint) on the outside. Inside looks great and is holding up fine but I rinsed with water and sanded to make sure ai got rid of all the blush ( waxy stuff prevents sticking). On the outside I was in a rush and didn't rinse, juust sanded, and paint didn't stick real well in all the spots. Next time I'll be sure and rinse with water to get rid of all the blush.
Yours looks great.