Affordable epoxy?

[Pernicious Atavist]

Hi, all. Well, the epoxy patches are on the delaminated BCX plywood hull. Thanks for the suggestion to fill w/ thickened epoxy. I sliced the bubbled layers off with my trusty knife and filled the divots. I was trying to avoid using any at all on this boat, but the !@#$%^! wood wouldn't hold up to, of all things--dew.

Okay, now, for the next endeavor (some would suggest counciling) I'm thinking about maybe a stitch and glue boat. In my experience, epoxy is way expensive. Yes, I West System, but I like the measuring pumps on the cans. So, is there an epoxy that won't make a small boat cost a fortune?

Thanks again! I should have pics of the skiff posted soon. Reckon I should take the pics BEFORE it goes in the water...no telling what could happen once it actually gets wet!

Cheers!

Ed

[imported_Conrad]

www.fgci.com (http://www.fgci.com) The least expensive out there, 7 different grades, even the 1:1 is more than adequate for wood construction. Check the data sheets.

[BrianR]

I second the reference to Fiberglass Coatings in Florida. Unfortunately however, their website is down. If you google them, they'll be more than accomodating when you call. Good luck.

[L.W. Baxter]

I've used TAP Plastics stuff. Costs, if I recall correctly, about $68 a gallon, as opposed to about $90 for the West System. Comes with three speeds of hardeners.

Unfortunately, I don't think it is distributed nationally, but I could be wrong.

--Lee

[capt jake]

Raka, definitely Raka! THey have a quality product taht won't bankrupt you and they are easy to talk to.
Raka (http://www.raka.com/)

[imported_Conrad]

OK- pay attention!! FGCI. No Blush. $25.80 a gallon. $25.80 a gallon 5 gallons, $129.00

Got it?! ;) smile.gif

[ 01-05-2004, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: Conrad S. ]

[Pernicious Atavist]

Got it! Thanks! :D

[L.W. Baxter]

Holy crap! I'll have to look into that! Thanks, Conrad...

--Lee

[chesterm]

Systems-3 is a good product and reasonably priced. Built a nice mahogany runabout using the stuff. Since we have it around we use it for other projects too, like things for our church, neighbors, mothers flower boxes and planters etc. The nice thing about epoxy is there is more time to monkey parts in and out of clamps before it starts to set-up and stick, unlike traditional wood glue. regards, Mitchell

[imported_Conrad]

OK- full disclosure- I buy 5 gallon pails of the 1:1, more than strong enough for wood, and low toxicity. BUT!!!- by the time they ship me 10 gallons, from FLA to SEA, it's up to, oh, $31.00/gallon. :eek: :D ;) :D

[DavesFlatsBoat]

Ed

Take a roadtrip to St. Petersburg and save the shipping and meet some of the nicest people around. On Saturdays they close at 12:00 noon so start early if you want to do a Weekend. Now I like the 2:1 - but I haven't tried the 1:1.

My only complaint - no biaxial tape - cloth but not biax tape and no woodflour.

Dave

On Edit: This is for FGCI

[ 01-06-2004, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: DavesFlatsBoat ]

[imported_Conrad]

Road Trip! :D Ah, those were the days!

I've talked with them a couple of times- always very nice and helpful. The 1:1 is my "main man" glue of choice, but I've also used the 2:1, a bit faster, and the 5:1. The 5:1 has a hardener that causes some sinus irritation if I don't wear a respirator all the time, so it's not as popular around here. tongue.gif But it's physical properties are right up there with the best of them, at a fraction of the cost, if you need the extra umph!

[landlocked sailor]

I have had excellent results with http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html Rick

[Pernicious Atavist]

Road trip....hmmmm...no snow...warm weather...great redfish fishing...3-hour drive...cheap epoxy...hmmmm....
Think I should?

[Woodrow]

Forgive me if this is a lame question,but,I'm bulding a ice boat and wondering if i could use Tightbond glue?(the real nice waterproof stuff) what are the advantages of 2part glue? Also where near StPeat Fl. can a gie buy salvage sail boat rigging? I still need blocks and shivs ect. 9 deg below 0 in NW Wis.

[NormMessinger]

The hull of your boat is, what?, about a third of the cost of the completed project? Epoxy is a fraction of that third, thus not a big factor in the overall cost of the boat. There has to be a reason some of the goop mentioned above is so cheap. What are they diluting it with? Ya want to risk it?

Actually, it probably doesn't matter what you do. It's just a boat and you can swim, eh?

[alteran]

Woodrow, Titebond is carried at Menards. Not sure about Titebond II but I will look next time I go to Rice Lake. They do carry Gorilla glue. If you are near there you might also try Rainbow Home center.

What sort of ice boat are you building?

Al.

[Woodrow]

Norm, as it hopefully goes this ice boat will never see water, only ice.My question still stands.Woodrow

[Pernicious Atavist]

Norm, was that to me? I think Woodrow thought you were addressing him.
I'll check on the epoxies, but while patching my !@#$%^! plywood hull yesterday I realized how much epoxy it would take to cover a boat, must be a couple hundred bucks for a 16-foot skiff, right? That just seems exorbitant to me and I think there has to be a more affordable, yet good quality, product out there.
Anyway, I sail the Indian River and if the boat disintegrates, I can just walk home...the longest swim to shallow water is only a couple hundred yards, if that....

[NormMessinger]

Just giving you another perspective, Ed but mostly needling those for whom Cheap is the most important factor. I don't know of any objective tests for comparing epoxy so the cheap stuff may be just as good as WEST.

If one really wants to go cheap, plastic resin glue is the ticket. Good enough for Culler, too.

Titebond II, Gorilla glue, or Plastic Resin for the Ice Boat, in my opinion. Users choice.

[DavesFlatsBoat]

Woodrow check out Horne's Marine Salvage in St. Pete: LINK (http://www.salvagemarine.com)

Norm - the technical specs for FGCI's 2:1 epoxy are equal to or superior to System III's 2:1 - so perhaps West & System III are picking your pocket. FGCI - great customer service - do a search on the board - and a quality product a an affordable price. Gee something must be wrong.

[Chalk]

I am using US Composite epoxy.... US Composites (http://www.shopmaninc.com/epoxy.html) ..I know several other builders that have used it with great success....It was the cheapest I could find....

[High C]

West and System III are clearly pocket pickers, the usual deal where stuff labeled "Marine" costs twice as much.

You oughtta see what stuff labeled "Aviation" costs, eh Norm?! :eek:

[Pernicious Atavist]

thanks as always, norm! and chalk, flats, et al. okay, i'm on the road 'til tomorrow so i'll check with you guys then.
woody, it's warm here. i'm wearing a linen suit and will have to run the a/c on the road today...shucks...winter bites, huh..... ;)

[Woodrow]

Altran, this boat will be a copy of a "Iceflyer".Its only about12 ft long 20in wide whith a 9 FT board.Regarding glue,the gie who is going to help build the boat (in his shop)thinks the titebond2 will work fine.But most of the DN's and Nites are glued whith what?West-2part? It may be hard to talk a cabnetmaker into a stinky glue when he says the other stuff will work fine.Also a lot of people are asking"arnt you overdoing things a bit",I alwase say ,"if its worth doing,its worth overdoing" Woodrow

[cs]

I've used System 3, US Composites, Bondo brand, and RAKA and for the money I've settled on RAKA.

I will warn you though I've had bad luck with US Composites. I've got a cheap canoe I did that it didn't hardly kick worth a crap. In fact I need to strip all the epoxy off and re-do it.

Chad

[alteran]

Woodrow, I know a place to ask but don't have time to find it right now. Will post it later today.

Al.

[Magnus]

Look at the specifications too. I got in a non-blushing and low temp epoxy that is water clear, but it is about half the strength of system 3 on the spec. sheets. Still stronger than polyester resin, and works good, but should have checked it out a bit more if I wanted extra strong. It is a lot easier to avoid cracks if it is right the first time.

[alteran]

Woodrow go here and you will find some ice boat information that may help you.

http://www.iceboat.org/

http://cerebus.winsite.com/DNboard/DNmain.html

http://www.network54.com/Forum/151343#

The last one is a bulletin board that might be a good place to start.

Al.

Do you have lakes where you are that are snow free enough to sail now? I think Wissota is but I haven't been by there for a few weeks.

[alteran]

Woodrow here is one more. A step by step for an iceflyer. A nice site.

http://davidwoodward.com/iceflyer/

[NormMessinger]

"You oughtta see what stuff labeled "Aviation" costs, eh Norm?! "

You got that right. But I understand. Those guys have to make their boat payments. But seriously folks... The shop rate at my FOB is $35 an hour. Phyllis overheard a conversation the hair person was having on the telephone with a guy that wanted his head? hair braided in corn rows. The price was $50 an hour and plan on half a day.

[alteran]

Norm, do you know where there is a school that would teach me how to do that hair braiding?

Al.

[warthog5]

Well I don't like high priced epoxy and I don't like pumps.
I live in Fl. so I have to pay Fl sales tax from FGCI.
I only use their 2 to1 epoxy. They say do not use the 1 to 1 for lamianting.

I pay $40.00 a gal buying 3gal at a time. 1 of those is the hardner.
This includes shipping and tax.

I use the spring loaded spouts that I get from a auto paint store for the lid's on the 1gal can's.They use the lids for mixing their base colors. This allows me to pour VERY small amounts if needed.
I use little graduaded pill containers for as small as 7.5ml amounts.
Everything is measured.
The 30 to 45 min potlife is a plus too.

[RodB]

I've used about 20 gallons of System three (using all three hardeners, Fast, med, and slow) on a 18 foot shallow water skiff (stitch and glue). I have worked in high heat, cold, high and low humidity, and have had no problems. I have purcased 5 gallons for $180 or 2 1/2 gal for $125. I think one gallon is $46.00. System III is significantly less than West and also less than MAS. I used what my designer (who has tried most epoxies and built over 60 boats) recommended and have never looked back. I figure the work/labor and materials are too valuable to waste by using anything that might cause problems later on.

I am sure there are many epoxies out there that are great but no one to date has done thorough comparison tests on the many brands, it seems the reviews are all anecdotal from folks that have used several brands and have picked one brand to stay with. I would use any product that offered superior qualities and am always interested in objective information along these lines.

I would be interested in some objective test parameters and procedures that would allow differentiation of the properties of adhesion and longevity of the many epoxy brands. Perhaps someone will do scientific comparison tests someday...

RB

[DickB]

RAKA, located in Delray Beach, FL is in the process (they've said) of relocating to Ft. Pierce, FL so they'll be within a dedicated boat builder's bike ride from your location. Call them, email them and get the scoop. BTW I've used their epoxy with excellent results.

[NormMessinger]

As my mother used to tell me Rod, all great minds run along the same track. A former? Forum member, Paul, who sells epoxy, a little too agressive for The Forum rules, perhaps, ran some tests which "the chemist" (RIP) shot down with technicalities and obfuscation (which is to say I had trouble understanding that masked figment) so my preconcieved misconceptions remain; ya get what you pay for but ya don't want to pay too much which is the appeal of System Three. (Now spelling asside, let's see ya diagram that sentense.)

[High C]

I seem to remember The Chemist once saying that there were really only three epoxy manufacturers in the US, and that these brands were just relabeling the same stuff, or words to that affect. I'm a Raka fan, myself, especially their non-blush hardener.

We haven't heard from The Chemist in a while, though. Anyone know what he's up to?

[imported_Conrad]

Well, everybody gets to have their favorite, no problem with that. But I'll toss my $.02 in one last time. ;) I've used West (20 years ago), System Three (when it first came out), Raka (saw it at the PT. Townsend show, the "latest and the greatest") and misc. others. I can read a data sheet, understand tensile and compressive strengths, flexural modulus, tensile elongation, and critical temperature. I have enough money to buy any epoxy I want, as much as I want, and not even give it a second thought ( sorry, but it's a factor here). I've probably gone through 40-50 gallons of various FGCI epoxies, in all seasons, with stupid hired help, and NEVER had a batch not kick, or fail in any way. And it also pleases my Scottish ancestors by being the least expensive. :D

If I wanted to live in Florida, I'd buy the company. ;)

If you want to toss out your money, buy some other brand, and support their lifestyle, not yours! :eek: smile.gif :D

[ 01-07-2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Conrad S. ]

[High C]

Originally posted by NormMessinger:
"the chemist" (RIP)Uh oh, what'd I miss Norm? :(

[Donn]

"the chemist" hasn't posted (under that handle) since September 8.

[paladin]

Darn...maybe I shouldn't say this........but......The same U.S. Chemical plants that sell bulk resin in the U.S. have plants in Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines...I can buy the exact same resins over there......ship by Kon Tiki to the U.S. and still save half....you just gotta need a lot to justify the trip and wait.....MAS included....

[Pernicious Atavist]

dang, conrad. i live in florida, and i'm looking for a new position...buy the company, hire me as your v.p., and i'll keep you posted on how it's doing! :D

[Woodrow]

My frend works at the airport building air frames . He said he would let me have all the "vinyl ester" i need to glue up a hull for ice boat.Has any one ever herd of vinyl ester?Woodrow.

[warthog5]

Sure Woodrow It's high end polyester and yet diffrent. It's not epoxy.

[John Bell]

Vinylester is a laminating resin for compsite fiber construction. It's an simply improved form of polyester resins. I'm nearly certain it does not have the bonding and adhesion properties of epoxy that are required for wood/epoxy construction. It may (emphasis on "may") be OK for glassing over wood. However, I'm positive epoxy would be the better choice.

[Woodrow]

John and Warthhog,thanks,so i'm looking for West System 105 and 205?I would get the stuff from RAKA or FGIC but after shipping UPS,,big deal. Woodrow. I miss the water,even a ore-boat would be ok.

[Bill Perkins]

Rod here are the most interesting comparative tests I've seen . They're ongoing .

http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxtest.htm

[High C]

The better, i.e. more expensive, fiberglass boats are now built with vinylester, instead of polyester resin. It's mo' bettah, stronger, more waterproof, and doesn't have that awful polyester stink. It does not have the adhesive properties of epoxy, though.

Designer Peter Stevenson prefers it to epoxy for fiberglass cloth covering on plywood.

Besides, all boats built with polyester resin will eventually sink. :eek: ;)

[RodB]

Bill Perkins,

Thanks for the epoxy test site, I read it all and saved it for future reference. I am mostly interested in the long term properties like withstanding the stresses and strains of a boat in use over time. I may want to clearcoat something someday , but for now I just want a predictable quality product that I can count on to not only hold my boat together without cracking, but also really "encapsulate" the wood in my boat whether glassed for exterior use or just double coated (areas not exposed to sun and weather). Naturally I would paint it all. . I guess all of them will probably do what I require. I am quite comfortable with Sys III but I probably will try the MAS and Raka someday just for the experience, etc...

RB

[Mark Van]

I built my 39 foot houseboat using FGCI 1:1 resin, as a glue, and for fiberglassing. I was very pleased with the product. It was not picky with mixing ratios, and it cures slower than West System slow hardener. As to the technical qualities, if it can make a glue that is stronger than the wood, it is good enough. Perhaps you get 10% better performance with epoxy that costs twice as much, so what?

[Chris Ostlind]

There has been an infrequent, but quite in-depth, discussion of purchasing epoxy and hardener at the Yahoo Multihull Boatbuilders group:

multihull_boatbuilder@yahoogroups.com

50 gallon drum purchases directly from Shell as well as hardeners in various mixes for whatever your boatbuilding needs might be. I'm quite certain that guys like Paul Oman and the rest buy their chemistry in this fashion and you can as well with a little footwork.

Start with a search of the Yahoo site and you'll be amazed at what you can get for yourself at extraordinary prices.

Chris

[warthog5]

Originally posted by Woodrow:
John and Warthhog,thanks,so i'm looking for West System 105 and 205?I would get the stuff from RAKA or FGIC but after shipping UPS,,big deal. Woodrow. I miss the water,even a ore-boat would be ok.You didn't quite get it. Raka, System 3, Mas and Fgci have their own epoxy. It is not West System.