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botebum
07-10-2009, 07:04 PM
A few here asked that I do a thread about the process involved in our shop to make the parts for a timber frame home. I thought I'd take it a step further and tell the story of a post from when it arrives at our shop as a blank piece of timber to its final place in the home of our customer. Knowing that it would take some cooperation from my employer, I talked to him about it today and he loves the idea.
So we begin-
Somewhere in this stack is our friend H-3
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/055.jpg
H-3 is a "Gunstock Post". It has more details than a normal post and will be a show point in a home somewhere north of Toronto.
H-3 has been found and layed out by Ken, the owner of the company.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/058.jpg
He's the big guy in the center and his twin brother is to the right. H-3 measures 8"x12"x22' right now and will be shortened to 19'. This particular frame is all Doug Fir.
Here's some of the layout lines. I'll explain each one as we go through the process of cutting.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/059.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/060.jpg

These guys don't move themselves around so we have "The Nutless Wonder" to help out.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/056.jpg
Once they're on the horses it's all me.

Did you say tools? Here's my cart-
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/054.jpg
1-cleanout router
1-chamfer router
1-8 1/4" Circ. saw
1-16" Circ. saw
1-4"(I think- never looked) Circ. saw
1-Chain Mortiser
Assorted chisels, tape measure, 12" speed square, 6" combo square, etc. You'll meet them all in time.
Tomorrow we'll start cutting

Doug

Pete Dorr
07-10-2009, 07:07 PM
looking forward to this info

switters
07-10-2009, 07:13 PM
damnit, just when I think I can walk away from the bilge because the smell never changes you come up with something interesting.

look forward to seeing it.

botebum
07-10-2009, 07:44 PM
It just occurred to me that some people might think this thread is about a Hummer hitting a phone pole ... not altogether bad:D

Doug

Pugwash
07-10-2009, 07:45 PM
Love it.

Well, you knew I did anyway.

:cool:

botebum
07-10-2009, 07:49 PM
Had to get you back somehow Derek;)

Doug

Pugwash
07-10-2009, 07:55 PM
Dunno.

Kind of looks like a lot of heavy lifting to me. I know we have the wonders of hydraulics, but still.......

:)

Bob Roncace
07-10-2009, 09:00 PM
It just occurred to me that some people might think this thread is about a Hummer hitting a phone pole ... not altogether bad:D

Doug

I certainly did. But the real topic is so much more educational. Please carry on! :)

R.I.Singer30
07-10-2009, 09:34 PM
The sun was out today too.:cool:

botebum
07-10-2009, 10:07 PM
The sun was out today too.:cool:I'm hoping for new pics of the Narragansett job to share but I've not had the time to check the GC's website.

Doug

BrianW
07-10-2009, 10:40 PM
This is gonna be good!

Love the lil'zoomboom...

Glen Longino
07-10-2009, 11:57 PM
Thanks, Doug!

goodbasil
07-11-2009, 01:23 AM
Love that forklift.

So where does the Douglas Fir come from?

MiddleAgesMan
07-11-2009, 01:31 AM
Yes, thanks, and please continue. :)

ChaseKenyon
07-11-2009, 03:50 AM
Doug, way way cool dude.

Just love the size of your sticks compared to what I re-saw for guitars. Violin and cello wood is always split to the grain and then thick-nessed from there carefully to stay in the grain.

Boat wood usualy has a lot of scarfs.

(now I can't spell for beans I were an engjinair not a englush tletcher)


Can't wait for your next installment. then the you tube slide show becomes popular and then the you tube video and then the full length video and the boss promotes you to head of marketing. Then you get to do wood work at home on your boats. It all in the planning. LOL

Really I am looking forward to more. Chase

LeeG
07-11-2009, 04:40 AM
Patiently waiting

Pugwash
07-11-2009, 06:28 AM
Can't wait for your next installment. then the you tube slide show becomes popular and then the you tube video and then the full length video and the boss promotes you to head of marketing. Then you get to do wood work at home on your boats. It all in the planning. LOL



You forgot about the reality TV show, the inevitable embarassing revelation about a murky past, the toe curling public apology, the slide into alcoholism & rehab. (more reality TV)

Stop it now Doug!! before it gets out of control!!!

:D

botebum
07-11-2009, 06:44 AM
You forgot about the reality TV show(eh, maybe), the inevitable embarassing revelation about a murky past(there's more?), the toe curling public apology(apologize? NEVER!), the slide into alcoholism & rehab.(again?)

Stop it now Doug!! before it gets out of control!!!(Out of control? Who? Me?)

:D

Doug

botebum
07-11-2009, 09:15 PM
Let's get started!
First off we get a look at all Ken's layout lines and realize that yesterday afternoon we had a bad case of CSS(can't see ****). I told you that the final length was going to be 19'. Correction- 14'. I was looking at the wrong "C" cut(clear cut through). There's another piece that gets made from the 5' cutoff. So the final dimensions will be 8"x12"x14'.
That's settled, let's make sawdust.
First cuts are the relief cuts. These are for tenons(none on this post), mortises, details, etc. This one's for a motise.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/001.jpg
This mortise has a housing that is exposed to the edge/other face of the timber. You'll see three lines. The one I'm cutting and the two others. The area in the center is the mortise. The one I'm cutting and the outside face are the housing. I don't want to overexplain it but I'm not sure how self-explanitory the pics are. Let me know on this as I go along. The housing will get routed out after the mortise is cut. In this case, a 4"mortise with a 3/4" housing.

Next we drill all the holes for the hardwood(white oak) pegs that will hold the joints together once assembled. Some go all the way through while others are "blind" because they end in an opposing mortice or an outside wall. Nice little allignment tool, huh? You can get one for yourself for around $300.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/002.jpg
We set the depth stop on the drill to only allow the tip of the auger to come through the other side.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/003.jpg
Then we drill from the other side to finish the hole. It really looks like Aunt Minnie's ass when you forget to set the depth and blow out the other side. I've managed not to forget(yet) but I've seen the results.
Now for some big boy fun! "C" cuts! These are cuts that go through the tmber. Cut offs. Big boys need big toys. The 16" Circ saw-
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/005.jpg
We enter at a high angle and drop down into the cut. This helps to allign the saw for a square cut.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/006.jpg

As the blade starts to come through the top of the stock we give a hard push to finish to minimize breakout and drop the waste as a whole.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/007.jpg
Cont'd

Doug

botebum
07-11-2009, 09:21 PM
Before you all start in on me- Safety glasses are required in the shop and I'm a Number One offender. I always use them when routing but otherwise leave them alone. I badly need glasses and can't see my line with safety glasses on. With luck the bigger checks that come with travel will allow me to afford glasses soon.
Please notice that I do use hearing protection at all times.
Back to the subject at hand.

Doug

Joe (SoCal)
07-11-2009, 09:30 PM
Damn now that's a circular saw :eek:

botebum
07-11-2009, 09:39 PM
The two cuts on the left are relief cuts and the one on the bottom got squirrely on me but that's on the adjoining piece and I can fix it when I get to that piece. It's a tenon shoulder IIRC and no wukkers(ode to Shane). The larger cut is my "C" cut and shows a really fine entry.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/008.jpg
But ... a fine entry does not guarantee a fine exit-
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/009.jpg
The culprit? Me. Gotta' check the saw for square a bit more often.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/010.jpg
This is how we get to see Aunt Minnie's ass.

With a few deft turns and some midget acrobatics we tune up the saw and glance around to see if Ken is watching. Yup. Lookin' right at me.
Cont'd

Doug

botebum
07-11-2009, 09:48 PM
So where does the Douglas Fir come from?West coast US I believe.

Doug

Paul Girouard
07-11-2009, 10:50 PM
West coast US I believe.

Doug

Yup around Washington / (Oregon I'm pretty sure has some) , here coastal / west side of the Cascades and up into BC.

I wonder if your stock didn't come from BC ? Smalser's can more than likely tell by the wood grain :D Ya that's a lil joke.


Big saw,,,,, NO GUARD!!! Yikes don't put that bad boy down till it's done spinning:eek: :eek:

They're lighter than a guy would think , at least the few beams saws I've rented , Makita??

Lets get to the fun stuff with routers , come on Dougie , hurry up:D

Nice thread , keep-er go-in!!!!:cool:

botebum
07-11-2009, 11:08 PM
My middle finger is holding the guard up. I keep it up till it clears the tailing edge of the timber. Usually, I am concentrating on the line so much that I forget to let it down at all. It is a Makita and I'm slowly getting used to it. The weight isn't bad but I don't remember being as out of shape as I was when I started this job. Everything is heavy when you have to do it all day. My mind is there and my body is beginning to follow. When I was in RI I managed to turn my entire body into a patchwork quilt of bruises from having to use my entire body to do what a person in decent shape could do with upper body strength alone. As I've said before, this is a young man's game and I'm 45. I'm pretty proud of myself, my boss hasn't ****canned me and Tonya thinks I look "hot". Did I mention that Tonya thinks I look "hot"?

Doug

Glen Longino
07-11-2009, 11:27 PM
Did I mention that Tonya thinks I look "hot"?

She's lying to you just to keep you working, dummy!:D:)

botebum
07-11-2009, 11:31 PM
Did I mention that Tonya thinks I look "hot"?

She's lying to you just to keep you working, dummy!:D:)Don't you have a goat that needs tending?

Doug

High C
07-11-2009, 11:37 PM
Very, very cool. I love seeing this.

I live in a timber frame house...really nice old pine timbers, 8x8 posts, some 8x3 joists and whatnot. But my joints are crude, simple notches and visible nuts and bolts (5/8") holding it all together.

My house was framed with a wrench. :D

botebum
07-11-2009, 11:52 PM
Very, very cool. I love seeing this.

I live in a timber frame house...really nice old pine timbers, 8x8 posts, some 8x3 joists and whatnot. But my joints are crude, simple notches and visible nuts and bolts (5/8") holding it all together.

My house was framed with a wrench. :DMy house was built by retarded farmers that made level land tilt and a house to match. It lists on three sides so they put the fourth side up just to keep it all together. The floors are rotten because they got tired of sweeping dirt and threw down some boards to hide the mess. The house is a faded yellow color because they hated the stock color of asbestos siding and invited all the neighbors to come over and drink enough sweet tea to stand on the eaves and piss down the sides. Learn to love your bolts. It could be staples.
When I have the joy of pushing this house over I'll hire my company to put up the new one ... even if they were to can me tomorrow.

Doug

bobbys
07-11-2009, 11:56 PM
Very nice job, I have the 16 inch Makita but cant afford a new blade, I have my Slicks from the boatyard when i worked there.

Please continue im your no.:) 1 fan

Glen Longino
07-11-2009, 11:57 PM
Don't you have a goat that needs tending?

Doug

How did you know that?:eek::)

High C
07-11-2009, 11:58 PM
My house was built by retarded farmers that made level land tilt and a house to match. It lists on three sides so they put the fourth side up just to keep it all together. The floors are rotten because they got tired of sweeping dirt and threw down some boards to hide the mess. The house is a faded yellow color because they hated the stock color of asbestos siding and invited all the neighbors to come over and drink enough sweet tea to stand on the eaves and piss down the sides. Learn to love your bolts. It could be staples.....

:D I know yer lying. There ain't no tilted land in Brunswick County, 'cept maybe the sand dunes. ;)

Cool gig....

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 12:04 AM
Did I mention that Tonya thinks I look "hot"?

She's lying to you just to keep you working, dummy!:D:)



God I wished I'd said that:D :D

Nice one Glen ya arsehat:D

botebum
07-12-2009, 12:07 AM
How did you know that?:eek::)I'm psychotic ... I mean psychic ... n uh no ... the first one.

Doug

botebum
07-12-2009, 12:10 AM
:D I know yer lying. There ain't no tilted land in Brunswick County, 'cept maybe the sand dunes.There is too and I have the moat to prove it! I guess that also proves that a man's hovel is his castle:cool:

Doug

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 12:12 AM
My middle finger is holding the guard up. I keep it up till it clears the tailing edge of the timber.


Ah I see that now, good way to do it.



My mind is there and my body is beginning to follow. When I was in RI I managed to turn my entire body into a patchwork quilt of bruises from having to use my entire body to do what a person in decent shape could do with upper body strength alone. As I've said before, this is a young man's game and I'm 45.

Stick with it IF your bodies any good at all it will adjust. Might take 3 or 4 months ,and a bottle or two of ibuprofen. When I had to change jobs due to the cabinet shop I was working at getting very slow , almost closing then getting sold finally a few months later, I was about your age the first few months of every day up and down the ladders , hauling stuff where hard. But I adjusted , do you do the Glucosamine / conjointin thing?? That really help me out with the joint pains.






Did I mention that Tonya thinks I look "hot"?





Like Glen said she's lyin like a rug:D:D
In a non-sexual 'rug' kinda way!

Glen Longino
07-12-2009, 12:12 AM
God I wished I'd said that:D :D

Nice one Glen ya arsehat:D

Thanks, Paul!:)
I woudn't have said it to just anybody, but I knew Doug could handle it!
Hey, don't you think he looks "hot" just like Tonya said?
No? I figgered!:rolleyes:

dhic001
07-12-2009, 12:17 AM
Hey Doug,
This looks like its going to be an interesting thread, thanks for posting. However, some of us aren't that good at visualising what you are making. Any chance of showing us an example of the finished product, and then 'this is how we get from the lump of timber to the finished product'? Would help those of us who aren't so experienced or knowledgeable.
Daniel

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 12:18 AM
Here's a question , is there a rhyme or reason this post is a "H"?

Like are all posts "H's" and all beams something else?

Is it a standard or more part of how this company does it/ computer program system for the frame ??

Like a stud is a X , a Trimmer's a T , a cripple is a C and so on in 'regular' platform framing.

dhic001
07-12-2009, 12:25 AM
Here's a question , is there a rhyme or reason this post is a "H"?

Like are all posts "H's" and all beams something else?



Isn't the H3 the treatment of the timber? Certainly that what it means here. Here H3 would be treated, but not enough to be buried, H4 is for stuff going in the gound, and H5 for stuff in the water (wharves etc). I'm assuming its a worldwide system?
Daniel

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 12:26 AM
Another question what the MC (Moisture Content) of your beam and post stock?

Is it something you guys try to control ? Or is it "it is what it is " when it comes off the truck?

I'd guess it's AD stock , maybe not??

Is it FOHC spec'ed?


I just did a lumber take off for my real job , it's a outhouse , beach bathroom , sort of post and beam-ish. 6"x 12" beams and ridge , 4"x10" rafters all D. Fir #1 and better FOHC , and two 10" x 10" x 8' Cedar post also FOHC. I was surprised they found those , the Cedar post where $1,000.00 a pop:eek:

Nice bath house I hope we get the job.

Had some 3" thick D. Fir doors I'll get to make as well if we get it. :cool:

Sorry for the questions but ................it'll keep your thread treading water for awhile ;)

botebum
07-12-2009, 12:35 AM
First of all-
Reguarding Thread Drift- Thread drift is allowed, encouraged and desired on this thread. It takes time to organize photos and work out the prose so it works in a way that can be understood by the losers that want to make my thread their playhouse. It helps me if you waste a bunch of time abusing me while I ponder what the next tidbit of wisdom I choose to share will be. It also helps keep the thread where I can find it and my ego to a dull roar:D
Second- My wife loves me and I love my house- 2 stupid people and one inanimate object. It could be worse. My house could be a wooden boat:eek:
Third- You can talk crap about me, my house and my wife but my kids are out of bounds and my wife will kick your ass if you talk bad about her. My dogs are fair game too but they bite worse than the wife.
That's all the rules I can think of right now. I'm going for a beer. Carry on.

Oh no ... wait!
Rule Number 4! Scot has to be nice to me and not ban me as long as I can keep this thread going.
There, done, beer.

Doug

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 12:35 AM
Isn't the H3 the treatment of the timber? Certainly that what it means here. Here H3 would be treated, but not enough to be buried, H4 is for stuff going in the gound, and H5 for stuff in the water (wharves etc).



I'm assuming its a worldwide system?





Could be I don't recall ever seeing that on our treated stock , it's either PT ground contact , or what we call Sunwood, which is for decking on exterior decks , so it doesn't have the dig marks, where the stuff is injected. We(USA) recently changed that as well from the old arsenic based PT to a ACQ , copper somethin somethin type treatment.

Which really seems to have been a bad idea as the new stuff , the ACQ eats metal even the ZMAX stuff seems to be corroding.

botebum
07-12-2009, 12:42 AM
Hey Doug,
This looks like its going to be an interesting thread, thanks for posting. However, some of us aren't that good at visualising what you are making. Any chance of showing us an example of the finished product, and then 'this is how we get from the lump of timber to the finished product'? Would help those of us who aren't so experienced or knowledgeable.
DanielHere's a pic of the house we did in RI. Shoot me a pm and I'll find the links for the thread and a website that show/tell more. Give me till tomorrow night to answer but I'll be happy to get it done for you.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Narragansett/004.jpg
Doug

Pugwash
07-12-2009, 12:46 AM
Paul, You might want to actually think about what you're asking in those first three questions...:rolleyes:


Doug, when Tonya says "your hot" it means you need a bath, i.e. "you are a sweaty bar steward".

Yes that is a big ass saw, and of course you need to hold the guard up to start that cut. Who doesn't know that?

:D

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 12:46 AM
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/058.jpg









This photo answer two of the questions , one of mine and one from Daniel.

The post is not FOHC as you can see the end grain, and they are not treated stock.

dhic001
07-12-2009, 12:48 AM
Here's a pic of the house we did in RI. Shoot me a pm and I'll find the links for the thread and a website that show/tell more.
Doug

Thanks for that Doug, its definitely impressive stuff, far more solid timbers than in our timber framed buildings. When I asked about the finished product, I was really meaning the finished joint, so we can see where all these cuts are heading for, if you get my drift. if it can't be done, thats fine, I'm sure all will be revealed by the end of the read.
Thanks,
Daniel

oznabrag
07-12-2009, 12:50 AM
Rule Number 4! Scot has to be nice to me and not ban me as long as I can keep this thread going.


Don't sell yourself short, Ol' Son!

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 12:52 AM
Paul, You might want to actually think about what you're asking in those first three questions...:rolleyes:

No time for that puggy what we need is answers:D


Doug, when Tonya says "your hot" it means you need a bath, i.e. "you are a sweaty bar steward".

Glen's slam was way better:rolleyes:

Yes that is a big ass saw, and of course you need to hold the guard up to start that cut. Who doesn't know that?

Lots of folks, most missing body parts. Another lil joke, but I missed his finger on the guard.

:D



Which first three questions Puggy?

Got shut-er-down, thunderstorm rolling in :eek:, one of the maybe three we'll get this summer. Very rare around here. See ya all later.

bobbys
07-12-2009, 12:54 AM
Don't sell yourself short, Ol' Son!.

O great now i cant call botaboom a poo poo head till this thread is over:D

botebum
07-12-2009, 12:56 AM
Here's a question , is there a rhyme or reason this post is a "H"?

Like are all posts "H's" and all beams something else?

Is it a standard or more part of how this company does it/ computer program system for the frame ??

Like a stud is a X , a Trimmer's a T , a cripple is a C and so on in 'regular' platform framing.I hope I get this right and if I'm wrong I'll correct it later. Bents(fully framed stands/walls) are lettered from left to right across the drawing from "A" to "Z", omitting letters that can be easily confused with numbers(I and O for example). This post would be part of Bent H and be post position(not part) 3 in that bent. Think of the plan as a grid. In that grid we have our bents. Going perpendicular to the bents are position numbers. One bent may have posts in positions 1,3 and 5. The next bent may have an open area and only have posts in positions 1 and 5, spanning position 3. The first bent would contain posts A-1, A-3 and A-5. The second bent would contain B-1 and B-5. I hope that's right and I hope you all can follow what I'm saying.

Doug

Glen Longino
07-12-2009, 01:00 AM
I had a book, lost to a friend! I think the title was "The Timber Framed House".
Lot's of great pictures of buildings and technical photos of joints.

botebum
07-12-2009, 01:05 AM
.

O great now i cant call botaboom a poo poo head till this thread is over:DPlease refer to rule number three.

Doug

botebum
07-12-2009, 01:14 AM
I encourage you all to ask questions about everything. As many of you know, I'm new to this and learning as I go. You may ask the question that I didn't think to ask Ken(he's gonna' get sick of that but it's his own fault for hiring someone who has to know everything). This is a learning process for me and I'm just sharing it with you. If I don't know the answer I'll tell you that and try to get the correct answer ASAP.
Thanks for all the interest.

Doug

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 01:23 AM
I had a book, lost to a friend! I think the title was "The Timber Framed House".
Lot's of great pictures of buildings and technical photos of joints.



Tedd Benson wrote that one, I've got it right here on my desk. I don't think he went into the why a part is labeled like Doug just did.

I think I get that general method Doug. Thanks!

dhic001
07-12-2009, 01:27 AM
Now we've got the question of H3 dealt with, does this timber have any treatment on it, or is the frame purely untreated timber?

The reason I ask is due to our leaky house syndrome here in New Zealand. For the last few years (maybe 15) houses have been built using untreated timber frames, and various forms of modern claddings. Unfortunately, those claddings, combined with a lack of eaves on new houses, have let water into the framing timbers. The lack of treatment meant the frames have gone rotten. A huge number of very new homes have had massive repairs done to them, and good number have been ripped down completely. I hope this isn't happening elsewhere in the world.

Daniel

botebum
07-12-2009, 01:30 AM
When I asked about the finished product, I was really meaning the finished joint, so we can see where all these cuts are heading for, if you get my drift.I neglected taking pics of the joinery in the house in RI(my first erection:o) because I was not involved in the cutting process and was more concerned with keeping up and figuring out what I was supposed to be doing. This is the first house I've cut. Due to the gods I've managed to get my passport in plenty of time to be a member of the team that erects it in Canada. I hope to get the pics and share the knowledge I gain with you all on this home. I plan to get some joinery pics as we go. It can get hectic on site but Ken is enthusiastic about my doing this thread so I'm confident that I'll be able to make it all work.

Doug

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 01:34 AM
Zealand. For the last few years (maybe 15) houses have been built using untreated timber frames, and various forms of modern claddings.

What was under them for house wrap? Felt , Typar, Tyvek, do you guys have those?



Unfortunately, those claddings, combined with a lack of eaves on new houses, have let water into the framing timbers. The lack of treatment meant the frames have gone rotten.

It would seem odd to use treated inside , the issue in this case is keeping the water out.





A huge number of very new homes have had massive repairs done to them, and good number have been ripped down completely. I hope this isn't happening elsewhere in the world.



We've had some issues with the wrap being crap combined with inside moisture not getting out. Lots of condo's and apartments had a lot of work done in my town and general area a couple of years ago.

We did a couple of repairs locally mainly due to poor house wrapping techniques , poor workmanship. One involved Tyvek , one was a cheap wrap with a local lumber yards name on it.

dhic001
07-12-2009, 01:43 AM
Sorry Paul, I can't really answer your questions. Yes there is something between the outside skin and the frame, generally known as 'building paper', but beyond that I don't know. Yes, the problem is with the water getting in, but once it got in, it can't get out, and the untreated timber goes to mush very quickly. For a number of years treated timber had been used for framing, which meant the frame was still solid, even if the cladding went. My parents bay window suffered from a leak for years, when we pulled the cladding off, the frame was still solid, which would not have been the case using untreated timber.

The problem is probably due to a number of factors, mainly design (lack of eaves, flat roofs etc), new materials (cladding) and a lack of treated timber.

Daniel

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 01:49 AM
These timbers are "green". Supposedly freshly cut, although that's not necessarily the case as these have required some excess of sanding due to weathering.
As far as exposure and rot- These timbers are not exposed to weather after installation inside the home. The eaves overhang the timbers significantly. There is a covered porch area on this home and I'll ask Ken about treatment of the timbers re-guarding;) that. At this point I don't have an answer for you.
We do oil the wood with a stain/oil mix before installation. I haven't memorized the recipe we use but I can get it.
I'll try to get Ken to log on to the forum so you could direct some of your questions towards him. As said, I'm learning and some questions posed go beyond my immediate ability to answer. Other than that maybe I can build a list of questions and "interview" him. He's a pretty busy guy so I'll have to go with what works best for him.



Very understandable , just do what you can , when you can. We don't want to get you fired , well not just yet any-who:D

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 01:54 AM
The problem is probably due to a number of factors, mainly design (lack of eaves, flat roofs etc),


new materials (cladding)

Any of the Hardi products??





IMO using treated in that way is sort of counter productive as water getting in IS the main issue.

I can see that yes it may work out, but what about the chemicals released inside the building? And other PT issues I may be over looking.

Yes, we've make houses so tight that they never dry out once they get wet.
And they rot quickly that way.

Interesting that using PT inside is a common practice down there.

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 01:58 AM
If you spell-check me one more time I'm gonna' strip you naked and toss you into a gay pride parade.

Doug



Bring it on big boy!!:D

dhic001
07-12-2009, 02:00 AM
Quite probably some of them are Hardi products Paul, certainly they did a lot of advertising on national tv. Beyond that I can't really answer your questions, I don't know enough about it. Oh, and the timber used in framing isn't decent stuff, its crappy plantation grown pine.
Daniel

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 02:02 AM
Oh, and the timber used in framing isn't decent stuff, its crappy plantation grown pine.




Our PT is also mainly a pine and it's sure is crappy as well.

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 12:07 PM
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/011.jpg
I had set the big saw for maximum cut and used the 8 1/4" saw to finish from the other side. This caused the misallignment to be 3/4 of the way across the face. If I had set the big saw to cut just over halfway through and then used it to finish from the other side, the misallignment would have been minimized and met at the middle. Did I explain that well enough? The result was a heavy 1/8" "shelf" about two+/-" from one edge of the face. Here's a shot of Ken saving the day-

Cuts like that are tough , I think your cut 1/2 way deal would have worked better , maybe even with 1 deg. of angle set on the saw to put a slight inner bevel angle so the edges met before the center touched . Of course that would only work from one side of the cut UNLESS you had two saws that angled / tilted opposite , OR maybe that shoe on the big saw MIGHT have enought slop to allow for a bit of over 90 deg. angle.

Describing angles is a PITA in written form. Most carpenters look at angle from a 0 to 90 prespective maybe the speed squares and the way tools are set up makes our minds think that:confused: Rarely will you hear "Make that a 345 degree cut!" We or I at least mainly think 0 to 90 , maybe I'm not writing this right either , but you may get what I'm so poorly attempting to write / say??



He's an artist with tools, most likely because at some point he's made my mistakes and learned how to fix them.

YUP!



Even after Ken's help I was left with some clean-up work to do with the mallet and chisel.




The satisfaction of seeing a fine curl roll off the edge of your chisel can't be accurately described in words-
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/016.jpg

A little fine tuning with my $5 Florida flea market Stanley #110 and she's purty as a speckled hound dog.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/017.jpg
Cont'd.



The joint or the block plane? Is that the new Barr chisel? Nice work BTW.:cool:

David G
07-12-2009, 01:41 PM
b'bum -

I just opened this thread, after skipping over it due to Hummer misconception. Great topic!

I've done a tiny bit of that sorta work. People shouldn't make light of how physical it is. I'm on the short side, but at the time was: young; fit; stocky; strong; athletic, and stubborn. It wore me out at first. New muscles being called into action :eek:

Keep the foto-essay comin'... it's bringing back fond memories.

BTW - your H3 designation comes - as you described - from the most common method of laying out a structure where rows of support posts are involved. In architectural drafting, they're called Column Lines. So your thread is about a single column, designated H3. It is - presumably - in the Third line of columns when viewed from one side (elevation) of the building. It is in the "H" (probably 8th) line of columns when viewed from an adjacent side. Usually, one corner is set (arbitrarily, I believe) by the draftsman as the Origin. The column in that corner would be designated A1.

So... you've warned us about insulting your dogs. And your wife. And your kids. And I'd never insult someone who's got the moxie to strike out in a new direction and learn a new set of skills to augment his existing knowledge... and who has the good judgment to pick something so interesting. That lets you out. So... what does that leave us? Perhaps you wouldn't be offended if I insult Mr. Girouard? He's a fellow sawdust junkie, an old swabbie, and... I know he's tough enough to take it :p

Seriously - I'm loving this thread. Interesting fotos. Good captions. I could use a bit more detail, but then... I'm keenly interested in the process - to compare it to my own experience - and so may be in the minority there.

Cheers,

Paul Girouard
07-12-2009, 04:53 PM
#1: Perhaps you wouldn't be offended if I insult Mr. Girouard?

He's a fellow sawdust junkie, an old swabbie, and... I know he's tough enough to take it :p

#2: Seriously - I'm loving this thread. Interesting fotos. Good captions. I could use a bit more detail, but then... I'm keenly interested in the process - to compare it to my own experience - and so may be in the minority there.



#1: Go for it you side-steppin beach creature , AKA sand crab / civilian.:D


#2: Ya it's a good-in, the spellin not the best but we can over look that eh Dougie:D

peter radclyffe
07-13-2009, 12:40 AM
thanks for showing us

David G
07-13-2009, 01:03 AM
#1: Go for it you side-steppin beach creature , AKA sand crab / civilian.:D

OK, here goes ---- Paul... you're funny lookin', got webbed feet, and yo mama wears corks. Oh poo. None of those are insults around these parts. Funny lookin' even puts you way above average for the Bilge, eh? :p You even got the crab part right. My sweetie tell me I'm a Cancer = Crab! She brings that up periodically... for no particular reason I can think of :rolleyes:

I guess I just can't work up the proper vigor unless inspired by serial idiocy. I'll just have to settle for pleading... More Pictures Doug, Please!!

pcford
07-13-2009, 01:30 AM
Didn't Smalser start a post and beam house for himself...It was a nice looking place if I recall. Wish he talked more about that than his suspect pontifications relating to boats.

J P
07-13-2009, 03:15 PM
Nothing like mortise machine chips in the olde socks, eh?
As a fellow timber framer I always enjoy a peak into another shop. Enjoying the thread.



Oh, and the timber used in framing isn't decent stuff, its crappy plantation grown pine.
Daniel

Daniel, I think the use of the word “timber” is a little different in the US and NZ. What we call timber framing isn’t considered “conventional” framing here. It varies, but generally in the US “timber”, as a construction material, usually refers to larger sizes of solid wood, say 4 or 6” and greater, while smaller sticks, e.g. 2x4’s, are called “lumber”, or stick framing. In NZ you call all solid wood framing lumber “timber” don’t you? In my first wanderings over there I remember getting excited seeing all the references to “timber framing” only to discover it could mean any old treated 4x2 radiata pine or what have you. The old roof of the Stone Store in Kerikeri is an example of what we’d call timber framing. Nice one too.

J P
07-13-2009, 03:29 PM
I hope I get this right and if I'm wrong I'll correct it later. Bents(fully framed stands/walls) are lettered from left to right across the drawing from "A" to "Z", omitting letters that can be easily confused with numbers(I and O for example). This post would be part of Bent H and be post position(not part) 3 in that bent. Think of the plan as a grid. In that grid we have our bents. Going perpendicular to the bents are position numbers. One bent may have posts in positions 1,3 and 5. The next bent may have an open area and only have posts in positions 1 and 5, spanning position 3. The first bent would contain posts A-1, A-3 and A-5. The second bent would contain B-1 and B-5. I hope that's right and I hope you all can follow what I'm saying.

Doug


I’m a real stickler (prick-ler) about good clear identification labeling. It would really be a bummer to have, say, an upper floor girt get assembled into a bent bassackwards and not be discovered until after the bents are up and braced off. Oops, joist mortises on the wrong side. I’ve heard of things like that happening.

Another ID system we’ll use is an “X/Y/Z” grid. X and Y being left/right, up/down in plan, and Z is vertical height. Pieces are identified by where they are located to the nearest foot from 0/0/0. So a beam might be labeled “14/12-24/9”, or a post “14/12/0-9”. The hyphenated numbers show which axis the piece is in. We circle the number that represents the end that is labeled to get the endo orientation. One advantage of this system is any piece not on a “grid” can be uniquely ID’d without having to come up with odd in between references like “C.1/A.a” or something similar.





Doug, if you don't have one already, keep a lookout for a rebate plane (AKA rabbet or carriage maker’s planes). Handy for cleaning up tenon cheeks and such.


These cheater safety glasses take a little getting used to but they don't cost that much. Certainly cheaper than an eye injury.
http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/cheaters.html



Coupla Q's:

Do those metal sawhorses stain the wood if the timbers are sitting there a while?


Did you shorten that beam saw cord? ;)

Larks
07-13-2009, 08:52 PM
Did you shorten that beam saw cord?Someone did. Not me. I actually like the length though. Short enough to stay handy and long enough to not get hung.

Actually the cord looks pretty normal for any building site - I haven't seen too many that haven't been sawn through and replugged. Mines about 8-10" long. I'd like to see a saw with no cord of it's own but just a plug for an extension lead - actually I reckon all power tools (non battery ones) would be better off for it. You pretty well always need asn extension lead anyway and they'd be much easier to pack away.

J P
07-13-2009, 10:47 PM
Did you shorten that beam saw cord?Someone did. Not me. I actually like the length though. Short enough to stay handy and long enough to not get hung.

Actually the cord looks pretty normal for any building site - I haven't seen too many that haven't been sawn through and replugged. Mines about 8-10" long. I'd like to see a saw with no cord of it's own but just a plug for an extension lead - actually I reckon all power tools (non battery ones) would be better off for it. You pretty well always need asn extension lead anyway and they'd be much easier to pack away.

8-10" long? You're almost there with the cordless. ;)

I have a Bosch worm drive saw that has that direct connect cord feature. Seemed like a good idea but I'm not completely sold on it yet. Not all cord ends fit, especially replacements, which most of my cords get eventually. I ended up just dedicating a new cord to the saw. You'd think we could standardize a more streamlined plug end design, and maybe even ones that stayed plugged in. The friggin things might as well be treble hooks the way they catch on things.


Looking forward to the rest of the story of post H-3.

Paul Girouard
07-13-2009, 11:46 PM
I have a Bosch worm drive saw that has that direct connect cord feature. Seemed like a good idea but I'm not completely sold on it yet. Not all cord ends fit, especially replacements, which most of my cords get eventually.

Yes thats a issue with some tools the way they set-up the plug receiver.


The friggin things might as well be treble hooks the way they catch on things.

Well unless you're on a roof then every air hose, electrical cord. or what ever NEVER gets hung up, they fall all the way to the crawlspace:D Mr. Murphy never sleeps.


Looking forward to the rest of the story of post H-3.



Ole H-3's gonna be around awhile, I hope!

J P
07-14-2009, 12:37 AM
Ole H-3's gonna be around awhile, I hope!

There can be quite a bit of labor in a gunstocked post but Doug's probably going to have more time in tending this thread. :)

I was wondering if this is a "live" presentation with H-3 being sort of a work in progress?

Paul Girouard
07-14-2009, 01:12 AM
There can be quite a bit of labor in a gunstocked post but Doug's probably going to have more time in tending this thread. :)

I was hoping we'd get photos of it in place. Doug's set-in to become a international timber framer , he said this is a frame heading to Canada and he's on the erection team.

Wonder why timber framer need a team to get a erection?But I think thats a question I shall leave alone:D




I was wondering if this is a "live" presentation with H-3 being sort of a work in progress?



From what I understand Doug's cuttin by day, posting by night. So if thats "live" thats what we're gettin.

I think the ole fella's a lil tired at the end O the day so the posting might be a bit slow, gettin old he is :D

P.L.Lenihan
07-14-2009, 04:49 AM
I encourage you all to ask questions about everything.
Doug


Whenya comin' ta Qweebec,ya woodchuckin' varmit? :D:D

Cheers!


Peter

P.L.Lenihan
07-14-2009, 08:25 AM
Peter, Ken is geographically challenged. He said Maryland when he meant RI and he said Queec when he meant Toronto. He said Colorado once but I think he probably meant China:rolleyes::D
Off to work.

Doug

What a shame Doug,going from one monoculture to another like that.:) I'll keep my fingers crossed so that the next time the boss says something like Saskatchewan, he'll really mean Quebec....the culture(not to mention the women) are really different.....in the nicest way possible,wink,wink,nudge,nudge....

Just don't get me started with stupid Toronto jokes. Have a good day at work and I'll console myself with some fabulous pictures and very interesting on going lessons in something I know dick about.

Cheers!


Peter

David G
07-14-2009, 11:16 PM
I want my money back!!! :rolleyes::D;)

oznabrag
07-15-2009, 01:07 AM
I want my money back!!! :rolleyes::D;)


By the time the paperwork is finished, and you get your money, this thread will have outstripped your wildest expectations.

Now, do you really want your kids to know that you were the guy who whinged for a refund on this, or do you want them to be proud that you stuck with it, and brought them to the glory of post #H-3?

Here, have another beer while you think about that! We got barbecue just on the other side of the bar, over there, so make yourself at home and don't expect too much too fast, eh? :p

David G
07-15-2009, 01:13 AM
By the time the paperwork is finished, and you get your money, this thread will have outstripped your wildest expectations.

Now, do you really want your kids to know that you were the guy who whinged for a refund on this, or do you want them to be proud that you stuck with it, and brought them to the glory of post #H-3?

Here, have another beer while you think about that! We got barbecue just on the other side of the bar, over there, so make yourself at home and don't expect too much too fast, eh? :p

I'll have you know that I came to this thread to Get Away from strippers and expectations :p I still want my money back! Every penny I ever paid that Non-performing Woodchuck. No... cancel that. I want Double My Money Back ;)

Though, now that you mention it, a beer sounds good... and I haven't had any barbecue in a few days. OK, we'll call it good.

oznabrag
07-15-2009, 02:05 AM
Wait a minute...Get away from strippers?

I'm confused.:p

David G
07-15-2009, 10:18 AM
O'brag,

I'm getting old. An older fella like me can only have so many girlfriends (plus a wife) before he gets to the point where strippers are just a distraction, doncha know :rolleyes: (And... if you believe that line, I've got some oceanfront property I'd like to sell you. Expensive, but worth it!. Comes with hot & cold running strippers)

I can feel the crowd getting antsy. They want an end to this nonsense, and a return to the marvelous, up from humble beginnings, story of good ol' Post H-3!!! Just trying to fill dead air space while b'bum recovers enough to post his next report. Timber framing Really Is hard work, folks.

Cheers

oznabrag
07-15-2009, 10:21 AM
O'brag,

I'm getting old. An older fella like me can only have so many girlfriends (plus a wife) before he gets to the point where strippers are just a distraction, doncha know :rolleyes:

Cheers

Yes, I do know! :D

Bruce Taylor
07-15-2009, 01:14 PM
Glad I stopped by, today! Fantastic thread, you horrid little man.

botesbabe
07-15-2009, 09:27 PM
Doug wanted me to let y'all know he is sorry he hasn't updated this recently, but he has been beat when he gets home and tonight he had to go help our neighbor take care of some nuisance deer. He will update soon. All I know is he loves his job, and that makes me happy! :)

Paul Girouard
07-15-2009, 10:35 PM
So this job is close to home , the shop work part of it? I missed it if he posted where the shop is located on the other thread.

J P
07-16-2009, 02:32 AM
Doug wanted me to let y'all know he is sorry he hasn't updated this recently, but he has been beat when he gets home ... :)

Well, maybe after his beat'n ... ;) ... an he's got the garden weeded ... an those nuisance deers are delt with ... maybe the ol' boy will have some time to tune up his chisel. :)

dhic001
07-16-2009, 03:54 AM
Daniel, I think the use of the word “timber” is a little different in the US and NZ. What we call timber framing isn’t considered “conventional” framing here. It varies, but generally in the US “timber”, as a construction material, usually refers to larger sizes of solid wood, say 4 or 6” and greater, while smaller sticks, e.g. 2x4’s, are called “lumber”, or stick framing. In NZ you call all solid wood framing lumber “timber” don’t you? In my first wanderings over there I remember getting excited seeing all the references to “timber framing” only to discover it could mean any old treated 4x2 radiata pine or what have you. The old roof of the Stone Store in Kerikeri is an example of what we’d call timber framing. Nice one too.

JP, I think you've just hit the nail on the head. Yes, down here wood is refered to as timber, "lumber" not being a word we use at all. Its an awful long time since I was in the Stone Store, so can't comment on the roof framing, will have to remember to look when next in the area. Maybe I'll steam up there in a few years time, tie alongside and go and have a look.
Daniel

oznabrag
07-16-2009, 08:20 PM
I'm having the worst luck! I just about finished an entire post and hit the freakin' keyboard somehow with the heel of my hand and lost it!:mad:
Give me a few and I'll redo it.

Doug

When that happens to me, I can usually hit the 'back' button, and all is restored.

Great thread, Señor!

Captain Intrepid
07-16-2009, 08:56 PM
When that happens to me, I can usually hit the 'back' button, and all is restored.

Great thread, Señor!

When I write really involved posts, often I'll write em in a word processing document first, and then just copy and paste em in.

And ditto on the thread, tis ruddy fantastic.

Flying Orca
07-16-2009, 09:04 PM
Nice thread, Doug, glad I checked it out.

oznabrag
07-16-2009, 09:09 PM
So...These mortisers are hand-fed? Do they get massages, too?

oznabrag
07-16-2009, 09:26 PM
No wait.

I think maybe I hit the 'forward' button.

Yeah, I think so. When the forum software 'deletes' my draft, I'm pretty sure that all I have to do to recover my draft is to click 'forward'. It's pretty annoying, and I think it may have to do with new posts to the same thread, but I ain't no Techie!

David G
07-16-2009, 09:49 PM
b'bum,

Looking sharp. Thanks a lot for these!

Paul Girouard
07-17-2009, 12:22 AM
Nice job Doug. :rolleyes:

Did you take care of some of the deer problem the other night?

I've had that lost post issue , the back arrow just sends me back to a post forming page with no text , like when you first hit the post reply deal. I'm thinkin hitting the forward arrow would do no any thing good either :confused: , but IF I remember next time I'll give it a try.

What a pisser to lose all those photo's and text, glad you hung in there Doug.

oznabrag
07-17-2009, 12:57 AM
Do try that thing with the forward-arrow Paul, I just had it happen again a couple minutes ago. I think the forum software gets a glitch if someone replies (maybe even views) a thread you're trying to write a response to.

I think the software bumps you back to what the thread was before you started your reply, so if you go forward from there, you see your composition.

Software glitch.

'Iss jess like cahbindrih, fellahs; If ya cain' cheat it to suture-self*, ya might just as well go home' :D

*SutureSelf! The Auto-Surgical Kwikkymart! Wounded in a gangland firefight?!?! No Problem! SutureSelf has all the answers! From Sterilization through Incision, Excision, Recission and Decision, SutureSelf has all the options!

Trust SutureSelf, Today!

[void where prohibited, do not bet on this system as there are no guarantees, actual surgeons extra.]

That'll be $250. :cool:

J P
07-17-2009, 07:21 PM
The Protool is a brute that works fast, the mortise doesn't require much chiseling afterward, but can only go about 5" deep. The Makita can go a bit over 6", works a little slower and the mortise requires some attention after. Tonya said "That's the one for me!" I didn't even know she knew what a chain mortiser was:o

Doug

If you need to go in deeper the mules of chain mortisers offer 8” and 12” plunging capacity in 1 1/2" and 2" thickness. Then there's the slotters but that's getting into a different type of joinery. I know the SwissPRO offers the the 8 & 12 options (have an 8” one) and AFAIK the SwissPRO, Mafell and Hema/Protool chains are compatible but I’m not sure if the bars are. We also run a couple Mafells and it sure looks like the SwissPRO bar will fit them but haven’t actually tried that. But you can always just bore and chisel as needed for the occaisional deeper mortise.

Bar and chain for these things are about $800! So use the proper lubricants. And you definitely want someone who knows what they’re doing when it comes to sharpening. We had one get fugdup. I’d love to know how many hours are on our oldest Mafell, they are real workhorses.

These chain mortisers can be awkward (hard on your back) to use when they are up near belly and chest height so we use little step benches to stand on when doing a bunch of mortises. That way you can use your upper body to better advantage with the plunging action. We‘ll also use shorter horses sometimes if there’s really a lot of mortising to do.

J P
07-17-2009, 07:27 PM
This housing is exposed on one side.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h92/botebum/Timber%20Frame/Toronto/034.jpg
We rout as much as we can and still have something for the router to ride on then pop out the last bit with the chisel. You can just see the ribbon of wood curling off the closed part of the housing. That's about as close as I try to get to the relief cut. A few seconds with a chisel is all it takes to clean it up. When you get too close and bump the side ... there goes Aunt Minnie again.
More tomorrow.

Doug

Are you using a top bearing pattern bit?

A simple and handy router mod is to mount them on a larger sled/base so they can span over those housings. Some of our bases are about 12” x 28” piece of 3/8” thick clear plastic with wood stiffeners/handles running down the long edges. Wood being about 1 ½” tall x 1 ¼”. We also do a lot of work in rough sawn, rough reclaimed, and old hewn materials where you can’t just run a tool base on the surface of the timber. For square rule type of work we’ll set up jigs on the sides of the timbers to run the routers on. That’s why the bases are so long.

Captain Intrepid
07-18-2009, 09:58 PM
Have a good trip to Toronto! Make sure to have some good poutine, gravy et cheese curds is something delicious to behold.

oznabrag
07-18-2009, 10:22 PM
I'll get the thread caught up, but, as said, I've got to scoot out of here around 5:30 to get an early start so I'll have some time with Tonya and the girls tomorrow.

Doug

We'll wait. Life comes first!

J P
07-19-2009, 01:10 AM
We're leaving early Monday ... and there's still some wood to be cut, I worked till 8 last night ...

Boy, do I know that story. I think there's lyrics for a song there. ;)

If per chance you are in, or near, Guelph, there is a 144 ft. span covered bridge over the Speed river that the Timber Framers Guild built in '92.
http://www.tfhrc.gov/structur/pubs/04098/appe.htm

Geez! it's been 17 years! When not working on the bridge ... I recall that there was this most excellent pub in town ...

There are some really nice old timber framed barns in that country too.

ChefCarl
07-28-2009, 08:02 PM
bump

switters
07-31-2009, 01:31 PM
I know, kicked out of Canada, now going to the blueblood upper crust of America.

But what happened to H-3?

I picture it there, all lonely, in bad lighting, half carved, trying to curl up in a fetal position, whimpering the way gigantic posts do when neglected.

switters
08-22-2009, 05:52 PM
@#$##@!!wtf happened to H-3?



happy ending?
burned up in a fire?