Restoration of a Twister [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum

RFNK

07-06-2009, 05:31 AM

The Twister Windrose was given to me last year by a local shipwright who had been given the boat several years ago when its owner of many years became too ill to sail or maintain it. The Twister was built in the late 1960s in Sydney by Johanssen, the same builder who built the folkboat that I completed restoring about two years ago.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/Windrose1.jpg

The Twister was designed by Kim Holman in the mid-60s. Regarded as a 28' boat, Holman actually called it the Holman 27 in the original drawings. It's been a very successful design, winning many races in its day and there have been plenty of circumnavigations and other feats of sailing completed in these boats.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_9646.jpg

This one is built with mahogany planks and superstructure, with a ply deck and cast iron ballast. It has no engine now but should have something of about 10-15 hp. There's rot in the planking and frames in the starboard aft quarter and the top quarter of the transom, the keel bolts seem to have been overtightened so there's probably some problem with keel timber, I'm concerned about the sternpost where the propellor shaft runs through it and, due to a really bad job of fastening teak decking, the deck and cockpit are basically stuffed. Otherwise, just about everything needs to be rejuventated with elbow grease and paint. I'll put all new engine, engine fittings, wiring, electrics, plumbing etc., replace the deck and build a new cockpit, repair all planking and fastenings, replace frames where they're rotten or cracked (several are cracked at the turn of the bilge aft), build or rejuvenate all interior furniture and rigging, and, probably, extend the wings of the floors where these appear to be a little too small around the area just forward of the mid-section. The hull is splined so I'll also replace any suspect splining. I may sheath the hull (full wrap with ballast removed) but I haven't decided yet. that will depend on the state of the planking once I take all the paint off. The mahogany used for this boat seems light and soft so either replacement or sheathing may be an appropriate solution - TBD!

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_9647.jpg

So far, the boat's been set up in our front yard and I've built a steel frame with a brattice cover over it for protection. I've removed most fittings (all high quality on this boat except the skin fittings which are all rubbish!), removed the starboard bulwark and rubbing strip (teak) and bashed out some of the rotten planking to see what it looks like. The next step will be to remove the deck, strip all paint off the hull then remove all planking that seems suspect and any other rot. I'm hoping that the rest of the hull is okay but, well, we'll see. Once the deck is off and all bad timber is removed and it's all shored up, the ballast will come off. I'll probably have to remove the garboards but I'll see how it all looks without paint and ballast. In any case I'll have to spring a lot of planking to repair damage that I think has been done to the sternpost.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/Windroseframes1.jpg

I intend to keep this thread going through the process and to post pictures at each main step. I'm very keen to hear thoughts and ideas about any aspect of this, with the exception of anyone advising that the project is not worthwhile. My time is my own, I want this boat to be practical and beautiful, and I don't care too much how long it will take. I currently work in Vietnam but have months back in Oz at a time and will soon be working back in Oz. It'll cost a lot of money and time to repair this boat but it will be a small fraction of the cost of a new build or purchase of another boat that I'd really be happy with.

All questions about the boat or anything to do with my attempts at restoration are welcome as are any ideas as it all evolves. Rick

Hwyl

07-06-2009, 07:23 AM

Looks like you got there just in time.

I had to look up "brattice" a new word to me.

hansp77

07-06-2009, 08:44 AM

Wow! good luck Rick,
I am looking forward to watching your progress- quite a project, and worthy one at that.
please keep us posted.
Hans.

bucheron

07-06-2009, 09:17 AM

Looks like you got there just in time.

I had to look up "brattice" a new word to me.

so enlighten us!

RFNK

07-06-2009, 07:38 PM

Brattice is any cloth that's used to seal passages in mines. They also use it to cover coal loads in trucks. The brattice that's used these days is just that woven plastic stuff they use for tarpaulins, tent groundsheets etc. but the material now called brattice is a highly quality material than the stuff you buy in camping shops, hardware shops etc. It should last about 5 years under the sun. I'm a bit skeptical about that but hopeful.

A l'eau! C'est l'heure! Unfortunately, not just yet! Khong chua!

Rick

RFNK

07-06-2009, 07:48 PM

At the moment I'm wondering about what material to use for the new planking and frames. Mahogany's too hard to get here and I don't trust the stuff I can get here anyway - although I will probably replace the transom top with it so that I have the option of varnishing the transom. I need a planking timber with similar density to mahogany and I need timber for splines. I also need timber to slice up for laminating frames so it needs to be rot resistant, glue readily and be fairly flexible. For framing I'm thinking of kauri or celery top if I can get it. For frames I'm thinking of jarrah, flooded gum etc. although I'm not sure about their flexibility. For any repairs to sternpost, deadwood etc., I'll use flooded gum for its stability. I'm not sure about new coaming etc. - it depends how much of the old mahogany is really okay. Rick

Larks

07-06-2009, 08:00 PM

Rick, I'm considering getting some African Mahogony trucked down to Brisbane from Darwin before I leave, I haven't done much reasearch yet so am not yet sold on it but am wondering about getting some slabs of it for my cabin sides. Would this stuff be any use for you? There's quite a bit of it up here that's been milled and stacked to dry out at Berrimah and I'm thinking it's the right time of year to truck it and keep it reasonably stable on the way down. I haven't yet chased up to see if it would be any different to what may be available in Queensland though.

RFNK

07-06-2009, 08:21 PM

Thanks Larks, I would be interested and I'm happy to share costs. I won't use it for planking but it would be really handy for the transom and some superstructure. I'll measure up some thicknesses etc. and let you know. Good to see you making some progress on that H28. Good to see yours has a bridgedeck too - I'm amazed at how many boats don't have this important component! What's the planking on your boat? Rick

Larks

07-06-2009, 08:35 PM

The H28 is strip planked in huon pine, resorcinol glued. The cabin sides were also originally huon pine but glassed over and I put the sabre saw through the middle of it before realising what it was so now have a couple of short lengths that I'll recover if I can strip the glass off. I don't know what the deck beams are.
I'll let you know when I can find out a bit more about the African Mahogony as far as cost and freight.

RFNK

07-06-2009, 09:19 PM

Great, thanks. I wish Windrose was planked with huon (or anything other than mahogany!!). I'll be in Tassie in a couple of weeks. Want me to see if I can get some huon? Let me know what you need if you can. I had a big slab of it shipped up a few years ago and it wasn't too expensive. Rick

Larks

07-06-2009, 09:38 PM

Don't tempt me.....I'd be buying it for the sake of buying it at the moment so I'll give it a miss, I have a couple of smallish slabs that I bought through ebay, kiln dried and ends sealed. It's from a guy in Melbourne who's family have a mill and he dries it before seling it. I have his contact if you are interested in it, though it may end up being from the same mill anyway with his mark-up, I don't think there are too many that are allowed to mill it now. Bernadette also had some that she was going to sell, 'not sure if she still has it or not though.

RFNK

07-06-2009, 09:46 PM

Anyone can mill it but you can't cut it down so it all comes from salvaged logs now. There's still a lot of it lying around at the bottom of Macquarie Harbour and the Lower Gordon I believe, and I think that's the main source. Rick

Candyfloss

07-07-2009, 04:06 AM

Good luck with this one Rick. I'm sure she'll come up just beautiful.:)

downthecreek

07-07-2009, 04:10 AM

She'll be worth it. Beautiful little boats and great to sail. :)

shamus

07-07-2009, 07:09 AM

Just a thought: As I understood you, you'll be removing the ply deck early in the process. Are the deck beams/and their connections sound enough to hold her shape if you do this?

Saltiguy

07-07-2009, 08:39 AM

Did you get a survey? Even if it was free you paid too much. There's nothing worse than a free boat. You should have bought a chainsaw instead. It will cost you at least $200,000 to get that mess fixed. No engine? You got screwed - big time. They're NOT called frames - they're called ribs - use the correct terminolgy! If you don't know a rib from a frame, why do you think you can fix a boat? It's going to take you 25 years to fix her and you'll probably go bankrupt and get a divorce in the process and then it will sink at the dock and you'll owe a million dollars to the government for the environmental clean-up. Smarten up! Take the 200 grand you'll save, buy a new boat and go sailing!

Just joking! A parody, of course, of some of the elitist, self-appointed negative backbenchers on the Woodenboat forum who jump in and soil the bed when someone shows their new project. No exagerations either - it's the ACTUAL stuff they say.

Now, finished with the joking, I just want to say she looks like a real sweetie. You'll have a enjoyable, worthwhile and satisfying experience doing the work and while you're bringing her back to health, I'll look forward to the progress. Kudos to you for stepping in to save the little lady. She's a beauty!

RFNK

07-07-2009, 08:15 PM

Just a thought: As I understood you, you'll be removing the ply deck early in the process. Are the deck beams/and their connections sound enough to hold her shape if you do this?

I think so Shamus but I'll be checking this as I go. There's no apparent rot in the beam shelf or any of the deck beams and all fasteners, including those in the hull, appear to be in good condition. I do expect there'll be some damage to deck beams where the previous owner screwed the decking on. If there's any doubt I'll shore her up where necessary. The deck will come off bit by bit.

Thanks all for your encouraging comments! Rick

Candyfloss

07-08-2009, 01:53 AM

My vote of thanks to Saltiguy.:D

Candyfloss

07-12-2009, 03:40 AM

Rick, you making progress here?

RFNK

07-12-2009, 05:01 AM

Spent the last week just mucking around with the other boat, diving and doing domestic stuff, so no! But, I've removed the bulwark and rubbing strip on the starboard side and tomorrow I'll remove the bulwark on the port side and begin removing the deck. Then I'll be able to see the extent of damage to planking and frames, I hope. The sheer plank on the starboard side is definitely stuffed but I'm hoping that's not the case on the other side. I'll post some pictures once I remove a bit of deck. Rick

shamus

07-12-2009, 05:32 AM

Saltiguy :D :D :D

RFNK

07-12-2009, 05:38 AM

Shamus, you in particular will be glad to know that Saltiguy had me hook, line and sinker :D!! Rick

RFNK

07-13-2009, 07:23 AM

Progress today. Although I planned to remove most of the deck, I spent the day instead removing the port bulwark and bow fitting. I managed to get both bulwarks off intact but I probably won't use them again. When I first saw the Twister I thought the sheer looked a bit flat but when I received the drawings from Holman and Pye I noticed that the sheer is actually very fine - almost jaunty. Then I realised that my Twister has bulwarks that actually taper down to the bow and stern - why would anyone want that?

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_9831.jpg

Anyway, the restoration will include bulwarks that emphasize rather than downplay the sheer line.

Removing the bulwarks and rubbing strip has shown what I think is probably responsible for some of the rot in the planking and frames:
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_9829.jpg

The photo shows teak decking fastened through glass sheathing into the ply deck. The sheathing finishes at the edge of the ply rather than being wrapped over the gunwale, so moisture is held against the edge of the ply deck and the sheer plank by the rubbing strip. In the photo you can see that there's actually little damage to the plywood but you can see a rot hole in the mahogany plank. This is worst in the aft section of the starboard side, the starboard forward section seems okay. I haven't taken the rubbing strip off the port side yet - fingers crossed! Rick

Hallvardur

07-14-2009, 04:03 PM

Good luck, and i wish you many happy working hours on this beauty.

Hallvardur.

RFNK

07-14-2009, 07:37 PM

Thanks Halvardur! Iceland is a place I'd really love to visit! Rick

RFNK

07-16-2009, 02:20 AM

Here's one of the two backstay fittings I've just removed from Windrose:
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_9833.jpg
Doesn't look like a bad fitting does it? :)

Well, underneath is the sad story: :mad:
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_9835.jpg

Seems to have been perfectly designed to trap moisture. Notice that the mahogany transom is completely rotted away (only the top section though, thankfully), the mahogany plank is also rotten but the plywood deck - it's the bit under the teak bulwark and faux coverboard - is still okay, albeit a bit black! I'm replacing the whole deck anyway but it's actually amazing how well the plywood has survived given the way it's been treated on this boat.

Deck removal has commenced. I'll send some pictures when it looks more interesting!

By the way, there are many areas with damage around fastenings below the waterline. My usual practice would be to rout out that patch and grave new timber in using epoxy glue. Given the number I'll have to do though, I'm thinking of just cutting a round trench (12mm depth) with a forstner bit and gluing large plugs (about 40mm diameter) in with epoxy glue. The new fastener (copper rivets or SB screw) will then run through that. Can anyone think of a better way? Planks are about 25mm thick. Rick

peter radclyffe

07-16-2009, 12:59 PM

Candyfloss

07-16-2009, 05:03 PM

RFNK

07-16-2009, 10:04 PM

Got a router with a copy collar Rick? Nobody else on this forum uses that term, but it's the only one I know it by. Make a jig by cutting a hole in a piece of ply, center the jig over your damaged area & stick it on with hot glue or tacks. Fit a 45 degree cutter in your router & rout the edges of your now-beautiful hole to 45 degrees. Make plugs to match the same way & glue them in. You can practice on scrap till you get a perfect fit. I love my router.

Yep, that's pretty much the way I do larger patches, except I use a little Makita trimmer with a pattern bit. So, I can make up a template for both the holes and the plugs - I hadn't thought of that. Great idea, thanks! Rick

kazeai1969

08-03-2009, 03:26 AM

I know you've been busy diving but....(bump) - looking forward to following this thread!

RFNK

08-04-2009, 06:33 AM

I've just spent a couple more days on the Twister. The deck and companionway are now gone along with the cockpit and galley. The good news is that all the deck beams are excellent and very strong. The bad news is that the starboard side of the cabin has rot in its aft end and in a line about .3m at the deck so I'll have to replace a bit of that. The coaming was shot too but I expected that. So, I now have a great big empty boat-shaped shell in the front yard. I still have to remove the sheer planks, all skin fittings, a bit more interior furniture, the propellor shaft (there's a problem there), any other suspect planking, the front hatch and I have to take the sheathing off the cabintop and check the condition of the cabintop. I'll try to take it right off so I can make sure there's not rot where the ply joins the mahogany sides. I have to have an ear operation tomorrow but on Thursday I'll take some pictures of current progress. Rick

RFNK

08-09-2009, 05:47 AM

If destruction can be called progress then here's some progress. these are shots of Windrose with all but a small section of deck at the stern removed and otherwise pretty much gutted. There are still quite a few skin fittings etc. to remove and I'll remove the rest of the interior furniture too over the next few days.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0644.jpg

The lack of any beam across the boat at the back of the cabin worries me. I'll install a bridgedeck here. This will provide two strong beams, adding a lot of lateral strength and stiffness.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0649.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0642.jpg

All the oregon (douglas fir) deck beams, the stringers and sheer clamps are in good condition and all joints seem strong.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0643.jpg

The back end of the starboard cabin side is rotten but this will be easy enough to fix. The cockpit is wider than the cabin so the coaming actually goes past the cabin side a little, so I'll just take that forward a little more than the original to cover the new timber I'll grave in.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0648.jpg

There are three laminated beams under the mast but they depend on the plywood bulkheads for bracing. I'm going to arrange a couple of ring frames - not exactly sure how yet - to strengthen this area of the boat. This, along with the strong bridgedeck, will be the only real structural changes I'll make to the boat.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0650.jpg

Tomorrow I'll remove this propellor shaft etc. and see whether this damage to the stern is as bad as it seems!

Rick

Larks

08-09-2009, 06:14 AM

Now how satisfying was that mate???:D Great work!!

Gezzunder

08-09-2009, 09:46 AM

Thank god you've started before me, now I'll get to watch and learn :)

I've an old shipwright's manual from the RAN (back when they had shipwrights) which lists timber uses. For planking, it quotes Spotted Gum and Tallowwood having the highest strength & weight, then Sydney Blue gum, Blackbutt and Yellow Stringybark, followed by Messmate, meranti and the various pines.

For framing, it lists (in order) Ironbark, Grey Box, Grey Gum, Mountain Grey Gum, Stringybark (white better than brown), Tallowwood and Blackbutt

http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/cps/rde/dpi/hs.xsl/26_5509_ENA_HTML.htm maintains a nice listing of timber and it's properties which seems to say the old boys knew their stuff.

I'll be keen to watch your work, commencement on my project starts as soon as I finish rebuilding the tupperware Schwarbrick that sidetracked me. Seeing as how I put my foot through Genie's deck when I was on her this morning, I'd better get moving :(

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/darcydugganx/CIMG1325.jpg

Sniper

08-09-2009, 03:52 PM

I'm following your restoration with interest. I have a wooden Twister of a similar vintage in the UK so I am keen to see how you tackle some of the jobs. I'll be particularly interested to see how much work the stern post requires and how you go about it.

Good luck!

Candyfloss

08-09-2009, 04:11 PM

Does it have to be a bridge deck Rick? I hate bridge decks. This worked fine for me.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018548/367380427.jpg

Right with you on the ring frame at the mast tho.

RFNK

08-10-2009, 12:27 AM

Does it have to be a bridge deck Rick?

Yep, the bridgedeck will strengthen the hull, support the rear of the cabin, create a true self-draining cockpit, provide a seat/table/counter up against the cabin out of the weather and allow the cabin to be sealed with just one washboard. The only disadvantage is that you have to step over it to get into the cabin. We find this no inconvenience at all on the Folkboat.

Thanks Greg, and yes, it was satisfying getting all the rotten stuff out but there's still a bit to go.

Re the stern post - there's a floor that goes over this section so i'll have to remove that before I can really get at the damaged section. I'll do that this week. I've got a few more weeks to go before I head back to Vietnam for a few more months so hopefully I'll really know what I'm up for re planking etc. by then.

I've also been thinking about how to get the ballast off. I'll jack the whole boat up by the ballast, prop it all up then lower the ballast enough so that I can get a stilson wrench into the gap and twist out the bolts (hopefully). That way I won't have to jack the boat so high or be jacking up the hull without the support of the ballast.
Rick

Larks

08-10-2009, 01:25 AM

Rick, I've given up on the African Mahogany - unless you are still keen. I'm going to go for the Fijian Mahogany, at $4k (+GST) it's quite a bit cheaper and more accessible than the African at $4.5 to $6.5k that Osama quoted. Plus I've still not heard back from him after a couple of reminder emails - he can't be too fussed about making any money.

Candyfloss

08-10-2009, 04:55 AM

Obviously I'm not going to shift you on this one Rick. Crawl in & out of your Hobbit-hole for the rest of your life if that's what you want. Just joking.
Next. Your fix for the rotten cabin coamings is to scarf in some new timber at the coaming/bulkhead join, then hide it by extending your cockpit coaming forward, ('cos the cockpit coaming is wider than the cabin), joining the cabin coaming in a nice curve, just behind the cabin window, right? Actually, even if the cockpit wasn't wider than the cabin you could make it so by boxing your coamings. Makes a lovely, comfortable place to sit when sailing to weather, & a great place to keep the winch handles etc.

RFNK

08-10-2009, 05:40 AM

Your fix for the rotten cabin coamings is to scarf in some new timber at the coaming/bulkhead join, then hide it by extending your cockpit coaming forward, ('cos the cockpit coaming is wider than the cabin), joining the cabin coaming in a nice curve, just behind the cabin window, right? Actually, even if the cockpit wasn't wider than the cabin you could make it so by boxing your coamings. Makes a lovely, comfortable place to sit when sailing to weather, & a great place to keep the winch handles etc.

That's about it. The original arrangement is like this anyway and I think it's smart. All I'm doing really is just bringing the coaming a little bit further forward and, as you suggest, I can probably create some sort of storage in doing so - I hadn't thought of that. I'll draw it up and see how it looks.

Greg, I think the Fijian might be a safer bet anyway. I'm still not sure of how much I'll need etc. anyway yet and it might be a while before I really know.

Gezzunder (are you sure you want to be called that - we had one when I was a kid ...?), the `old time' boatbuilders in this part of the world prefer flooded gum to spotted gum - spotted gum's a bit unstable compared to flooded gum they tell me. I'd actually like to use flooded gum to replace some of the mahogany planking but I'm worried that even though it's stable it might `show' against the mahogany after a while - not sure yet. I am going to laminate new frames with flooded gum though and I'll use it to replace any floors I might need to replace. Rick

Candyfloss

08-10-2009, 04:22 PM

I should have peered more closely at your first photo. I'm off to paint my dinghy. Last coat on the hull today. I'll post pics.

Gezzunder

08-11-2009, 10:13 PM

Gezzunder (are you sure you want to be called that - we had one when I was a kid ...?). Rick

It's a play on words :) I'm a submariner, live in a sewer pipe, gOezzunder the oggin.. gettit? :D

RFNK

08-12-2009, 03:09 AM

Thanks, it always was a play on words - only the original `gezzunder' gezzunder the bed at night in case you .... need to go!! :D

Genie's beautiful!

Rick

RFNK

08-13-2009, 06:01 AM

I've removed the floor that spans the bottom end of the sternpost so that I can get at the damaged timber around the propellor shaft. The shaft, copper sleeve, bearings have all been removed now along with every skin fitting. I've removed some of the starboard sheer plank - it's not easy as it's all glue to a packing strip that runs between the plank and the sheer clamp. I've also begun preparations for removal of all damaged planking. To do this I've had to remove the aft half of the starboard bilge stringer - really tedious because every screw is difficult to remove. They're still strong but the slot breaks out on about every second screw - really annoying! Anyway, the next step will be to grind the tops off all copper fastenings that hold the planks to be removed, punch out the fastenings and remove the planking. Then I'll know how much planking I'll need. I still think most of it will be in the starboard quarter but there are a few other patches here and there where I'll need to replace sections. I'll keep butts in adjacent planks about three frames apart, as a rule but I'll put in longer sections if it starts to look a bit weak. I'll post some more pictures when I've finished removing starboard planking. Rick

Candyfloss

08-13-2009, 05:02 PM

I would seriously like you to have one of my dinghys Rick. My flatmate is flying to Brizzie in a few weeks, maybe he could carry it in his hand luggage. No? Any other suggestions? I don't think the New Zealand Yachting Federation will give it Category (something about lacking a liferaft) so I probably won't be able to row it across. All this red tape makes the simplest things so difficult. I know, I'll hide it in a shipment of apples. Oh, no. Aussie doesn't accept NZ apples. Some bug they imagine we have & they don't. Actually, will they accept NZ furniture? (throws hands up in dispair) It's too hard Rick!
Seriously, good work mate, & don't let minor considerations like making a living interfere with the imporant stuff like building boats.

Gezzunder

08-13-2009, 06:55 PM

RFNK

08-13-2009, 09:30 PM

OK Gezzunder! That's a good tip and, no, I hadn't thought of it! I'll give it a go - all these old screws are driving me crazy! And, yes, I'll try to post more photos!

Candyfloss, last time in NZ we bought a bag of fresh apples, nice and crispy, but after a couple of days they were soft and floury. A few weeks ago in Tassie, same time of year, we bought a bag of apples and after 8 days they were still crispy! I love your dinghy (actually, it seems to me that almost anything to do with boats from Godzone is pretty good!!) but you can keep your buggy apples! :D Rick

Candyfloss

08-14-2009, 03:53 PM

Obviously they saw you coming (or more likely, heard you) & got out the apples they put aside for tourists. AUSSIE tourists.
My tip for recalcitrant screws: hit it with a hammer. Or rather, hit the screwdriver with a hammer. This will loosen the grip the rust/gunge has on the screw & make it possible to remove. Mostly.

Larks

08-14-2009, 08:56 PM

I may be telling you to suck eggs, but it's the little things we sometimes miss being told, besides, someone else may not know it.

When removing a screw, give it a little turn to drive it further in, this breaks the grip the timber has formed on the thread and allows for easier removal.

When you're restoring an old boat, remember that a camera is my best friend.

Having spent a weekend a few weeks back removing and breaking screws on my H28 (including tapping the screw driver with a hammer to break the "seal"), this is one of those somewhat annoying "light bulb" type moments when you realise, "oh, I'd heard that before and forgotten all about it". 'Wish I'd remembered to try it.

I also spent a lot of time going from screw to screw and back again to let them cool to try and avoid breaking too many, the celery top pine certainly held on to them, likewise with the nails. I have ended up with a few broken ones still in there. I'm tempted to just leave them there and sand/grind them nice and flat before I reseal the beams and relay a new deck, what do you reckon?? I don't see them ruining any timber, the biggest problem may be striking one when I relay the deck.

hansp77

08-14-2009, 09:20 PM

has anyone tried an impact driver for removing these screws? By this I mean a powered tool, not those hand punch things you hit with a hammer..
I got myself an AEG 18v cordless number a month ago and have been very impressed with it. Two days ago I was building/installing a big desk/bench top thing and was driving screws through timber, mdf and chipboard- at the time in question I was using some cheap random bronze coloured (but not bronze) screws we had at hand because they were the right length for the application. The impact driver punched them in and torqued them up one after the other easily and with no problem- then the battery died, and I realised my other was flat, so had to switch to a regular cordless drill. Immediately on this exact same application I snapped/sheared three of these crappy screws in a row- had to stop and get some other screws.
I really don't understand the mechanics of it exactly, but using an impact driver for screwing and unscrewing I no longer shear things, I no longer strip the head of the screws nor damage the heads of my bits.
I wish I had this to try when I was attempting to remove seized screws from my boat. I am not too sure it would have done much for some of the really large gauge screws (such as the ones holding my toe-rails down), but for most other things it definitely would have helped- and worked better/easier than the big manual hand punch impact driver thing I was using.

Larks

08-14-2009, 09:56 PM

Hans, I use a range of different drills and tek guns for screws in the building game and probably wouldn't have a screwdrive if not for needing them for mechanical work and the boat work. On the boat I find them OK for removing some of the bigger screws and the ones that would come out easily enough but find they do strip heads and shear screws pretty easily. Some of my tools probably have just too much torque for the job and I found that I snapped off too many screws that just got too hot so I went back to the handraulic approach for the harder ones.

I've also found that they are pretty dastardly for installing new stainless screws unless you are particularly careful, they strip the heads pretty easily and again the stainless screws just can't seem to handle the heat from the friction of too much torque (for want of a better way of describing it) depending on the timber and any pre drilling that you might have done.

hansp77

08-15-2009, 12:39 AM

Larks,
when I bought this impact driver, I honestly thought it was going to have a bit more torque. It is listed as having 165nm. Whatever that number means(:rolleyes:) it has enough for most of my needs, but starts 'impacting' a lot earlier than I was suspecting it would. Whatever the case, torque-wise I suppose mine is a pretty weak one. I can't conceive of any screw that I could not easily remove by hand that this thing would shear or strip- yet at the same time it will easily drive or un-drive with no damage to screw or bit, a screw into/out of something that my regular drivers (electric and hand) will likely fail at (by shearing, stripping the head, damaging the bit, etc).

I know what you mean about stainless steel- Using normal powered drivers, cordless and corded, I damaged many a big and expensive stainless screw on my deck rebuild (screwing down the toe-rails and then the bronze runners on top of that)- an expensive and annoying process.

RFNK

08-15-2009, 07:23 PM

Obviously they saw you coming (or more likely, heard you) & got out the apples they put aside for tourists. AUSSIE tourists.

And they wonder why we don't want their apples sent over here! Imagine which apples they'd ship us if we did :eek: !

Well, I tried the tip with the problematic screws but it's not working in this case. The problem is that the heads of the old bronze screws are too soft around the slot. I scrape the slot out etc., hammer the driver in etc. but, while it works most of the time, about every 5th screw or so just ends in tragedy. I think I've tried every method - just not the one that works yet! But, as I will be doing a heap of fastening etc. anyway, I'm going to try Hans' method too - Hans, could you post the model number etc. on your driver please?

Spent yesterday helping a friend with an old Alan Payne Sydney to Hobart boat (Serenade) and we're taking our Folkboat out for a spin today so the current task of removing paint from the starboard side to inspect all planking will have to wait until tomorrow. Rick

hansp77

08-15-2009, 10:35 PM

Hi Rick,
here is a link to the AEG impact driver I bought.
http://www.vektools.com.au/lithium-cordless-impact-driver-p-7243.html
This is exactly the same tool I got, but a different colour (ie, the link is of the new orange range instead of the old blue range I got)
I got mine at close to 50% discount (approx $200 off IIRC) from Total Tools (preston store (http://www.totaltools.com.au/Stores/default.html?s=VIC&a=store&id=preston))- there are a number of tool retailers who have been doing big discounts on the old colour AEG range. The preston store had a good pile of them still, last I was there- so if you wanted to contact a local Total Tools to see if they had them, they might be able to get one sent up- or just buy directly from the Preston store (if they still have them).
(another option, if total tools still has them, then you can always try to convince bunnings to match the price on the new orange range- a couple of weeks ago my local Bunnings was matching the price for the new Orange coloured AEG belt-sander to the price of the discounted old blue belt sander that JustTools had on sale- I had already bought the blue tool:rolleyes:)
Of course just about all the tool brands, cheap to expensive, are now doing versions of these compact Li-Ion impact drivers. Any of the decent brands are no doubt as good as eachother IMHO. Even a cheaper Ozito version or something might just as well do the job (but even the Ozito isn't all that much cheaper than the discounted AEG price).
It is not a cheap tool, but it is a very useful one IME (if say for some reason it too did not solve your problem). I only use my bosch cordless drivers now for drilling- once you get used to it, I find the impact driver is simply superior for driving and undriving screws (if a little noiser and sometimes slower- when it has to do a lot of impacting). The saving in bits that I will not ruin alone will start to add up soon:D

Of course (sorry for stating the obvious) as you are having particular problems with the slotted heads of your screws, whatever solution you go for will no doubt rely on having a perfectly fitted flat head bit/screwdriver. If you can't find one off the shelf that fits perfectly then I would be carefully grinding one up to match. I hate trying to remove old seized flat head screws- all the big thick long ones I have mentioned on my toe-rails were such- I got a few out, the rest I had to cut through horizontally through the deck (that luckily was getting removed). Nightmare.

EDIT- here is an ebay auction of the exact one I have http://cgi.ebay.com.au/AEG-BSS18LI-18v-Cordless-Impact-Driver_W0QQitemZ290337693977QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_ Power_Tools?hash=item439979a119&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
Starting off at a bit more than I paid- I think I paid $230-40 (can't check as I put the receipt through the washing machine in my shirt pocket:o)

Larks

08-15-2009, 10:47 PM

Rick, what will you do with the busted ones? What's the concensus on leaving them there?

Candyfloss

08-16-2009, 04:07 AM

Busted-off bronze screws? Leave them there? No problem. Except that according to Murphy's Law they will be exactly where you want to put the new ones.

RFNK

08-16-2009, 04:11 AM

Greg
I always try to get them out. Usually I drill the head off so that joint can come apart then I remove the remains of the old screw with Vise-grips. I don't like leaving them in as they play havoc with routers etc.

Thanks Hans for info re the AEG - I'll see how I go. Rick

08-16-2009, 05:16 AM

Hi Rick,

Nice project you have there, I can see why you like them folkboats.

re the screws, maybe this helps.

Tom

http://www.xs4all.nl/~steeft/inhoud/w660.htm

RFNK

08-16-2009, 05:21 AM

Thanks Tom
In the end, I think this is the only method that will work for the most stubborn screws, and it's fine as long as the part being removed is wide enough so that the replacement plugs are practical and still look okay. Rick

Candyfloss

08-16-2009, 05:46 AM

Sorry Rick, you've lost me. I thought you were removing the planking. Which means taking the broken-off screws out of the frames, & stem & transom, presumably. So why do you need a router? And who will ever see them?

RFNK

08-16-2009, 06:42 AM

Graeme
The sheer plank is screwed to a packing plank between the clamp and the plank. The rest of the planking is fastened with copper nails/roves except for the ends etc. In talking about removal of screws, I'm talking more generally - removal of fittings, bilge stringers, coaming etc. etc. The plugs and graving I'll have to use on the hull will be to repair damage around fastenings, replace planking where skin fittings have been, etc. etc. There are a lot of fastenings with worm damage around them so I was looking for a neat way of making plugs to repair that damage. Your chamfered plugs and way of producing them seems really smart to me - so that's what I'll do. For the larger patches, I'll make up a jig to make graving patches of a more traditional diamond shape - using the router etc. Rick

Candyfloss

08-16-2009, 08:14 AM

Thanks Rick. I"ll try to keep up.

RFNK

08-16-2009, 08:37 PM

Here's a picture of the Alan Payne Serenade our friend has here at Lemon Tree - we had both boats out yesterday so there's also a picture taken from Pipsqueak. It was a beautiful winter's day but not much wind.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0760.jpg

Serenade is 35', planked with WRC with bronze floors and unglued, laminated and steamed frames. A very light, very fast boat built in the 1950s. Her sister, Nocturne, took line honours in the 1952 Sydney to Hobart race in light conditions.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0676.jpg

Rick

Candyfloss

08-17-2009, 03:21 AM

She's beautiful Rick. Golly I can't remember the last time they had a light-weather S to H. Or one that was won by such a tiny boat!

RFNK

08-24-2009, 07:42 AM

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0813.jpg

There's been a bit of progress this last week in between sailing and a few other distractions. The Twister has had just about all topsides paint removed from the starboard side and quite a bit below the waterline. I use a heatgun and thin bladed scraper for this - my favourite way to remove paint, and then I sand with a sander/polisher (a sort of slow angle-grinder). This was all in aid of finding suspect planking. The starboard side is the bad side but it seems that the rot is confined to the sheer plank where it meets the deck and several planks in the starboard quarter. The rest of the topsides look pretty good and I'm hoping that the port side only has a little bit of rot where it meets the transom. I've cut out the rotten planks in the starboard quarter topsides - in the photo below you can see the sheer plank is gone, the second plank is rotten too but the third plank is good. The two planks below this one are rotten and then it's all okay. Although I've cut the splines I won't actually remove the planks until I've installed the new frames. Some of the lower planks will also need to be replaced where they can't be patched up properly but this is due mainly to worm damage and poorly installed skin fittings. I'm worried about the stern around the propellor shaft still so I'll try to clear some of that out over the next week or so.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0814.jpg

Today I removed all of the starboard sheer plank. This was a big job as it was fastened from both sides. There's a board between the sheer plank and the clamp/beam shelf and the plank was fastened with screws running through to the clamp and screws running from the clamp into the plank as well. The uppers go through the clamp, backing board and into the plank while the lowers go through the clamp and the frames and into the plank. Removing these was pretty laborious but made much easier by the tips from Hans and Gezzunder. I bought a new AEG cordless hammer drill (not the same model as Hans' but also on special!) and the hammer driver technique for removing the old bronze screws worked really well. I also tightened every screw before undoing, following Gezzunder's tip, and this made a huge difference. Thanks!!

Later this week we have to antifoul Pipsqueak so the Twister won't get too much attention this week!

We went sailing yesterday but didn't take Woody, the smallest crew member, as we had another guest aboard, so he was pretty put out. But, to top off a perfectly lousy day for him, as soon as we got home SWMBO hit him with the dreaded BATH. This is what one really p***** off dog looks like.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0820.jpg

I'll post a picture of the structure behind the sheer plank next time. Rick

hansp77

08-24-2009, 09:25 AM

Gday Rick,
good to see the progress.
Just for interest- the tool you bought, do you actually mean a cordless hammer/drill driver (ie, with a keyless chuck, hammer and non-hammer settings, and likely a clutch), or the one I was talking about being a impact driver (minimal settings if any) ? Both quite different tools and actions...
Of course if it is working for you, then it does not really matter- so that is where the 'just for interest' part comes in;)
If you are using an impact driver, then I can fully picture how it would be working... basically the tool tries to spin the bit in the direction you want it to, and then once it reaches a certain level of torque begins to 'impact' the bit counterclockwise a few times a second...
If you are using a hammer/drill driver, with the hammer setting as you seem to describe, then it gets a little more interesting... it would be hammering down through the screw as it is also turning it counterclockwise. I would assume that you would also be using the clutch when doing this- which when properly tuned to the job at hand doesn't work all that differently to a impact driver... Interesting solution if that is the case,
anyway,
thanks for the update,
Hans.

Gezzunder

08-24-2009, 11:13 AM

Larks

08-24-2009, 07:52 PM

I think they may be a bit different to a rattle gun. Hans, I've assumed that by an impact driver you mean the same as a Tek Gun, you need to put some pressure on the screw to engage the clutch. You can essentially adjust the torque setting and when using them for driving in tek screws they torque up and start impacting when the torque reaches that setting.

RFNK

08-25-2009, 04:18 AM

Yes, what I'm using is a cordless drill with a hammer drill setting rather than an impact driver. I think it's working because the hammer actually hammers the driver into the slot a bit so you get better contact as it turns. I didn't really think this would work - i thought it would just destroy the old screw heads but it seems to work really well as long as you put a bit of pressure on.

Last night we had a few big gusts from the west and one tore the cover off the shelter, so today I had to take the cover to the canvas repair guy for some reinforcing. Rick

hansp77

08-25-2009, 05:33 AM

Larks and Gezzunder,
not a rattle gun and not a tek gun, though sorta similar but different to both;)
this is a 'impact driver'- which from what I can tell is what they are called the world over.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KawwrzAXIqI

an excellent little tool for driving and undriving screws- saves your bits from destroying themselves just as much as it saves your screws from being destroyed and or sheared. On anything but the finest work (small thin screws, soft timber) I get a much easier achieved perfect result than a normal corded or cordless drivers.
It has a very fast rpm until it reaches a certain level of torque when it begins impacting- this is particularly great for anything self tapping, metal or timber.

Anyway, enough about that- the real story seems to be Rick and his hammer un-screwing technique:cool::D
Sounds great, keep up the good work.

Candyfloss

08-25-2009, 06:58 AM

Or Rick do you mean just an ordinary battery drill with the torque selection set at a low level?

RFNK

08-25-2009, 05:45 PM

Or Rick do you mean just an ordinary battery drill with the torque selection set at a low level?

It is really an ordinary battery drill but it has a `hammer' setting which is hammer and maximum torque rather than less torque. I'm sure Hans' tool would be better but the drill works well. The down side is that if it does jump out of the slot it damages the screw head quite a bit - it sounds like Hans' driver doesn't do that.

I think I'm pretty well set up for removing old bronze screws now. This is what I do: I clean out the bung/putty/paint etc. with a small screwdriver to expose the screw and slot. I then use a screwdriver bit in a `brace 'n bit' and slightly tighten the screw to break its grip. I then unwind it with the brace and bit. If the screw head slot is too shallow, damaged etc. then I scrape out the slot a bit more with a hammer and smaller screwdriver and use the hammer drill to remove the screw. If all this fails then I expose the screw head with a chisel and remove the screw with vise-grips.

I've got a lot of boatbuilding and house renovating ahead of me so I'm going to get Hans' recommended driver one day. That and a splining saw blade are all I really need now I think.

I've pretty much decided to sheath the hull. Too much of the planking is good to justify re-planking but there's a lot of surface damage below the waterline so it's going to be patchy. I'll use the very strong glass and wrap it right around the hull after removing the ballast. I'll create epoxy collars for the keel bolts prior to glassing. This approach will provide a lot of extra strength to the hull as long as it's done properly. There are a couple of sections of the hull where the wood seems a bit dark so I suspect there could be oil/diesel in that timber. I'll epoxy a patch of glass on those sections one day just to test the adhesion after I see if it can be `dried out' with the heat gun. I'm replacing most of the frames with laminated frames - I'm still not sure whether to refasten with screws or nails and roves. Opinion seems to be divided on this question. The big advantage of the screws is that I can do this job alone. If i was using sawn frames, there'd be no question, I'd be using screws. But with the laminated frames, it's more debatable. Any advice on the advantages and disadvantages of screws vs nails would be appreciated.

It's really windy today so it's likely I'll go for a sail at some time but I also plan to do some shoring up of the cabin and deck as so much structure has been removed now and then I'll get on with exposing and cutting through splines where planking needs to be removed. Still on the starboard side! Rick

Gezzunder

08-26-2009, 08:20 AM

Just went and bought one of these 'impact drivers'. Seeing as how I already had the Ryobi +1 series of saws, drill/drivers, routers etc I bought their matching impact driver.

It is a little beauty! There's no downward impact, just a continual rat-a-tat-tat when torquing the screw. Kind of like when you've got a seized nut and bolt and you tap the spanner/wrench to ease it off. The longer you hold the impact driver, the higher the torque on the screw.

The Ryobi only seems to handle up to m8, the Makita looks to go a bit bigger - but costs just a lot more.

And I thought my cordless trimming router was going to be my favourite tool!

floatingkiwi

08-26-2009, 08:40 AM

Hey Rick. You sound like you have it licked but my two pence worth. The screws holding the floors in place in the folkboat were decomposed to various degrees and I found that armed with some good HSS bits I just hollowed them out and if the remaining outer didn't spin out at the same time, a pair of 2 to 1 pliers plucked them out like ripping molars from a sperm whale.
Cheers mate.

JimJ

08-26-2009, 08:43 AM

rat-a-tat-tat when torquing the screw
The blokes who did our kitchen renovation had those. Don't know what brand but they were not cheap.

hansp77

08-26-2009, 10:19 AM

Just went and bought one of these 'impact drivers'
…
And I thought my cordless trimming router was going to be my favourite tool!

LOL, they're a good little tool eh?
How many volts is your Ryobi? Li-ion or Nicad?
My AEG is the 18v Li-ion, like the makita in the youtube vid I linked, and packs a fair bit of power (though for really big long screws into hardwood, I wouldn't mind another one with a bit more punch).
Before I had owned and used the tool a lot- I would have found it hard to justify buying one at full price, but from approaching $500 RRP down to just over $200 I got it for, it seemed a good buy- and it was! I love it.

Sorry for the thread drift Rick:o
(p.s. is your aeg the 18v Li-ion cordless hammer/driver drill? If it is- If you are thinking of getting an impact driver as well, then if I was you I would seriously consider trying to track down one of the same ones as I got before they dissapear- so you get the benefit of interchangable batteries/chargers- the new orange range would work fine for that as well, but around twice the price:eek:-
Preston total tools, had a big stack of them? otherwise no doubt there will continue to be a few 'new' blue ones on ebay for a while)

RFNK

08-26-2009, 07:52 PM

Hans, I've done just that. New Lambton Electric Motors are getting the driver you bought in for me for just over $200 so I'm pretty happy about that! As you say, I'll be able to use the Li-on wotzit batteries with the drill as well, and vice versa, of course. The chuch on the AEG drill is just amazing - so grippy and easy to use!

No work on the Twister today - Pipsqueak's coming out for antifouling so that's the task for the next couple of days. I'll raise the boot top while I'm at it. Rick

hansp77

08-26-2009, 09:50 PM

sounds great Rick,
I am pretty sure you will be happy with the tool. Having 4 batteries and two chargers should be very handy as well. These batteries don't seem to give up many warning signs before they simply STOP- which is nice because they keep punching at nearly full strength until the last, but then they can suprise you and leave you with no batteries...
How much did you pay for the hammer/cordless if you don't mind my asking? Where from? Is it the blue or the orange range? I haven't seen them down here on sale (Bunnies had them a while ago but I missed out), and it is coming time for me to replace my much abused 14.4v blue bosch one that is on its last legs. I've been really happy with all the blue AEG stuff I have bought- I am sure the one you have is great too- and would like to take advantage of having both the tools sharing batterys and chargers...

now, back to boat stuff,
that raising of the boot top- I need to know about that.
My boat Altair, before our ownership, lived its live in a sheltered marina berth- it had no bootstripe as such...
I just copied the old waterline for the antifoul. Now that she is out in the comparitive open on a swing mooring, with the extra waves and wind I am getting and constantly battling scuzzy algae and growth line above the old waterline onto the topsides... So, do I just raise the antifoul waterline accordingly next time I repaint? I use ablative coppercoat and was sort of worried how well this stuff stands up with constant wetting and drying (from the evidence on my boat it seems to crack a little on the waterline).
We are long overdue for a haulout and I have to solve this one next time (when it warms up a little).

RFNK

08-27-2009, 05:22 AM

Hans
The hammer drill I bought was also on special and, like the driver, is the older, blue range. It was $245 - normally quite a lot more, and I got it from New Lambton Electric Motors in Newcastle. I'm getting the driver from them so if you can't find the drill anywhere else, let me know and I can pick one up from them if they have any left.

The local boatyard `Cove Marine' sells antifoul called Altex and everyone around here seems to use it. There don't seem to be too many problems with the bit of antifoul that is in and out of the water cracking up. It seems that you really need to have antifoul well above the waterline to avoid those ugly bits of algae building up and I think the boot top looks good. The only trick to painting the boot top that I know of is that it shouldn't be quite level. If it's level it looks like it's sloping down a bit at the front and back so it's better to paint it with a slight downward curve (slightly raised at each end) and then it looks just right. Rick

RFNK

08-27-2009, 05:30 AM

Dramas with Pipsqueak (Folkboat) today :(. We took her out just to quickly antifoul and raise the boot top a bit and found a patch of rot by a starboard chainplate fastening. The boat is supposed to go back in on Saturday to make way for another boat being slipped but we really need to chase the rot right out so it's all high drama at the slipway at the moment. Finding good quality ply in a hurry is a bit of a problem here in the back of nowhere! Anyway, hopefully tomorrow I'll find some and then we can see how quickly we can get it all watertight and protected.

On a slightly better note, a lovely old wooden trawler was slipped beside us today. Planked in flooded gum, built in the early 60s and with owners who really like the old wooden boats. They plan to burn off all the old hull paint tomorrow but I'll see if I can climb aboard and snap a few shots. Rick

Candyfloss

08-28-2009, 03:59 AM

I was told that the boot top for a 30-35ft boat should be an inch wider at the bow & 1/2 an inch wider at the stern than in the middle. How you achieve that I have no idea. In fact I gave up trying to draw a waterline on my dinghy.
Sorry to hear about your problem with the Folkboat. Best of luck with that.
Make sure that boat next to you doesn't set fire to Pipsqueak too!

hansp77

08-28-2009, 06:03 AM

Best of luck with Pipsqueak Rick,
suprise rot is not a nice thing:(

Regarding the tool,
I've been looking around at a couple of shops locally and the price you got seems like a really good one. Do you by any chance have the model code for it, just to make sure it is the one I am thinking of? There seems to be a lot of slight differences...
Is it the 18volt, lithium-ion batteries one?
What I would consider doing is seeing if the place you got it from would just post it down if I pay over the phone with a CC, as it is still a long way cheaper than what I can get down here.
No great drama's,
I'll be heading down to Wye River for a week on sunday(:):):)) so will probably have to figure it out when I get back.

RFNK

08-30-2009, 07:26 AM

Hans
The driver I've ordered has Li-Ion batteries but the drill I bought has Ni-Cad batteries.

Graeme
It's easy to raise the boot top at the ends. If you mark the line with a batten you just raise it the required amount (i.e., a little bit) at the ends and mark the line accordingly. If you use a laser level, just put a batten at the height you want at the ends and fair the line in to the level line - easy.

With the dinghy, I'd cheat and just put it in the water with a bit of sawdust on a calm day. Then mark the line with a pencil, then fair in the slightly higher ends with a batten.

Pipsqueak's all repaired now :) - photos later. We replaced about 900mm of planking in two planks due to old damage from leaky chainplates (to do with the old teak on ply disaster :mad:) and we also found and filled an old worm hole. She'll go back in the water tomorrow night at high tide. It was raining burning paint from the trawler next to us yesterday but they're good guys and it's been interesting to hear about the history of their boat. Photos of that later too! Rick

Gezzunder

08-30-2009, 07:42 AM

Thinking about the laser...

When marking your waterline with a laser, you should be able to tilt it upwards 1 or 2 degrees so the center is on your waterline, the ends will be higher. Beauty of a laser is you should then be able to step back and check the look.

I haven't done this yet, but it makes sense

RFNK

09-08-2009, 05:13 AM

Folkboat repairs, visitors and the need to sail! got in the way of Twister work over the last 10 days or so, so not much progress.

Here's a picture of Pipsqueak all patched up and one with her new friend, the Bodalla Star (which one would you rather go to sea in?):

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0830.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0839.jpg

This is a couple of shots showing the arrangement behind the sheer plank of the Twister. The frames rise to a backing board which fits between the sheer clamp and the sheer plank right along. The oregon sheer clamp and the oregon backing are both in good condition except for one short section of rot in the backing (about 20cm in length) and a couple of linear splits in the sheer clamp near the bow on the good ol' starboard side. There was an epoxy and glass repair to the deck and the sheer plank in this spot so it looks to me like the boat may have banged a pole or something here at some point.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0827.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_0828.jpg

I'll be able to put just a few more hours into the Twister this week but on Saturday it's back to Hanoi for a few months. I hope to use some of the spare time to plan out the new cockpit and cabin arrangements. Rick

Candyfloss

09-08-2009, 04:13 PM

I bags not the trawler.

You'll keep in touch from Hanoi Rick?

RFNK

09-09-2009, 02:46 AM

I will. I'm taking the inside measurements with me so I'll probably float a few ideas around and see what people think and I'll be looking for ideas from others of course! Rick

09-12-2009, 08:12 AM

Hi Rick,

Sorry for mistakenly calling your Twister a Folkboat. I realized that after breaking my head over Kerry's drawing. The above pics make it even more evident. :o So much new stuff to learn for me in a different language makes it easy to slip up....

Looking forward to see your ideas for cockpit lay out.

Btw, may I ask what field of work you are in? Friends of mine did engineering work in Vietnam too. Mainly installing HUGE diesel engines or turbines.

RFNK

09-13-2009, 04:06 AM

Cookie, easy mistake to make as we do also have a Folkboat and the 2 boats are a bit similar. I'm an educational consultant working on a project with the Government of Vietnam and the World Bank - nothing to do with boats unfortunately! It looks like I'll be here for a few more months and then probably head back to Oz. I'm not sure what I'll be doing back in Oz but it's most likely that it'll be in educational administration. I'd be happy to conti nue with consultancy work overseas but SWMBO is not too keen! and, of course, I have one boat to maintain and another to rebuild, so I need to get busier with those. Rick

RFNK

09-30-2009, 10:24 PM

This is a post just to bump this thread up a bit - purely out of self-interest! as I'm always keen to hear ideas about possible directions with this one. I've been back in VN for a few weeks now so there's been no progress on the restoration except for a bit of thinking about the interior layout, cockpit and, of course, the big question about the basic strength of the hull and the best way to deal with that. Rick

Gezzunder

10-01-2009, 05:23 AM

C'mon mate, nothing stopping you from posting drawings of your ideas :)

RFNK

10-01-2009, 05:43 AM

C'mon mate, nothing stopping you from posting drawings of your ideas

Except that I don't have any ideas yet :rolleyes:. I brought a pile of old WB magazines back to HN with me this time and I've been going through those. I will throw in some scanned images or something from a couple of those soon and I will try to be more productive as well! My drawing skills are crap too so that doesn't help! Hmm, now what other excuses can I think of ... Stay tuned! Rick

floatingkiwi

10-01-2009, 07:45 AM

Candyfloss

10-01-2009, 03:40 PM

Yep.

RFNK

10-14-2009, 03:13 AM

Treading water restoration-wise in Vietnam has me finally thinking about the interior layout and cockpit layout for the Twister. I know the topic of interior layout has been done to death and it's easy enough to find plenty of great ideas in older posts but, if anyone would like to throw any more pictures or ideas in at this stage, I'd be most grateful! With a 28' boat, the interior options seem fairly limited to me - a few berths, a galley, a head, some storage space, a navigation area, bookshelf but is this really so? What good ideas have people come across?

As far as cockpit layout goes, the Twister has a traveller behind the cockpit (thank goodness), I'm definitely going to build in a bridgedeck, but what layouts are people particularly happy with? All ideas gratefully accepted!!

Shouldn't be too hard to improve on the `original':

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_3772.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_3778.jpg

Rick

Candyfloss

10-14-2009, 03:15 PM

No takers?

Not too much you can do in a 28 that ain't been done before.

Seems your companionway bulkhead is pretty well forward on this boat, giving you a long cockpit, but a cramped accommodation? So your insistence on a bridge deck might be forgivable. But I think it will make access to your headsail winches a bit awkward. You might have to move them back a bit. And the coamings are too high. And you need to tilt the winches forward a bit. They must override horribly. Can you fit the diesel tank in the bridge deck? Then you'll have room under the cockpit seats for some serious storage, or for quarter berths. I love quarter berths.

Just some ideas to get the ball rolling.

Oh, & whatever you decide on the interior, I hate centerline tables with dropdown leaves. I'd rather eat off my lap. As you probably do on the Folkboat.

Candyfloss

10-14-2009, 03:25 PM

One outrageous solution I saw but never experienced was a U-shaped dinette forward, across the boat, facing the companionway. You would have to climb over it to get into the v-berth, but hey, you only do that once a day, & it sure gives you lots of options!

RFNK

10-14-2009, 09:50 PM

Thanks Graeme, plenty of good ideas there! I'll certainly be moving the fuel tank forward and I will consider quarter berths. The boat wasn't in sailing condition when I got her so I don't know how the winches and other fittings were but all reports I've heard were that she was a dream to sail. The coaming does look high in the photo but it's not actually all that high, and it is comfortable. Rick

Larks

10-14-2009, 10:32 PM

I can't add much Rick because I'm still doing the same as you for the H28, but here's the thread that Peter started (which you've probably sen anyway), it has some great interiors and I particularly like "Little Jim"

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93792&page=2

also this one, where I aspire to the likes of the Newport 29 in post #75:

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92317

what's your headroom like?

RFNK

10-14-2009, 11:58 PM

Thanks Greg, they're great resources that's for sure. And I agree re Little Jim and the Newport 29 - both beautiful! Headroom is good in the Twister - I can stand up! Of course, headroom in the average drainpipe is good compared to headroom in the Folkboat so maybe I'm just easy to please. Thanks for bumping Peter's thread. Rick

10-15-2009, 11:54 AM

Here are some pics of the cockpit of my 27’er. Just for ideas and discussion. It sure is not perfect and I have to rebuild it completely as the wood is as rotten as an over age french cheese.

http://diver.webs.com/4.bmp

http://diver.webs.com/DSC01482.JPG

The storage box you can see in the cockpit coaming is an interesting idea, but doesn’t work, because it collects water.
Hatches in the top/seat are nice for accessibility, but are a sure leaker. It caused a lot of trouble on my boat. :mad:
Hatches in the cockpit/bench sides could be an option, but is less practical for accessibility and could leak as well….I really have to find a proper solution for this, as the storage compartments are not accessible from the cabin because the bridge deck is connected to a bulkhead.

In case you are wondering; the thing you see in the middle of the bridge deck is for lifting the centre board.

RFNK

10-15-2009, 09:38 PM

Thanks Tom but the pictures aren't showing for some reason - just little red Xs. Rick

10-16-2009, 02:52 AM

Hi Rick,

I think the server is too busy. Let me know of the problem persists. Then I’ll upload the pics to photobucket or similar.

Larks

10-16-2009, 03:01 AM

Cookie do your coamings have drain holes outboard? Those hatches can be quite handy for your sheets as long as they do drain, I can unerstand them being a pain if they simply collect water. Also the seat top hatches can work great if they have a gutter around the lip inside which simply drains into the cockpit. Here's a link to a picture of one type of set up - not quite what I have in mind but it'll give you the idea:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uNlKy795HNgC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=cockpit+seat+hatch+drain+setup&source=bl&ots=CeWQEePqKr&sig=okev5Z1jjTHu-z-XS6eutLpJBOY&hl=en&ei=0RnYStGuOoy8sgOckuSLBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

RFNK

10-16-2009, 04:30 AM

That does look like a really good idea Greg! I still can't see the pictures Tom but the internet has been off and on here all week so that could be the problem. Rick

10-16-2009, 04:39 AM

Hi Larks,

Thanks for the link.
There is a bit of a gutter underneath the hatches, but they are not placed at a 30 to 40 degree angle as prescribed in the drawings you linked to. The “afschot” angle is maybe 10 degrees, which is not nearly enough, hence the leaking.
There are no drain holes in the coaming boxes and I am a bit hesitant to make any as they are often forgotten when painting. A lot of rot can start in those tiny hidden areas.
Not sure whether the boat would benefit from extra stiff cockpit coamings, but that might also be an argument for not having storage boxes built in them.

RFNK

10-16-2009, 04:49 AM

I can't see the pictures Tom but is there any reason why you can't make the drain holes big enough to paint inside? It also helps them to dry quickly. Rick

10-16-2009, 04:51 AM

If I make the drain holes bigger it might wash out the goods it contains along with the water :(

Larks

10-16-2009, 04:58 AM

You shouldn't need a particularly big drain hole, about the size of a pencil or your little finger, lined with a bit of epoxy or paint to stop any rot and to stop it being painted over later you may even fit a small stainless clam cover on the outside

http://us.binnacle.com/p5635/MIDGET-CLAM-SHELL-VENT-STAINLESS-STEEL-(1-1/4-X-1-1/4-X-5/8)/product_info.html

10-16-2009, 10:53 AM

That could work, but when the boat heels and the water hoses over, those little channels on the higher/windward side could send a nicely continuous stream of water to your butt.

On the hatches, when you install the drip gutter at a 40 degree angle, the hatch has to cover pretty much the whole bin, otherwise the gutter would block access to the rest of the storage compartment.

Don’t wish to sound like I'm teaching granny to suck eggs, but one has to think these things through very carefully....

Candyfloss

10-16-2009, 03:21 PM

Here you go Rick. Can you see these?

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018548/376159594.jpg

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/22018548/376159295.jpg

10-17-2009, 10:04 AM

I think I have a solution for draining the coaming box: instead of letting the water out at the other side of the coaming, you can let it drain into the cockpit with a hose, kinda like shown in the book Larks posted a link too.

Thanks Larks (and Rick), your remarks and link got me there :D

RFNK

01-01-2010, 05:44 PM

Well, back in Oz now for two weeks and it's been raining almost constantly :mad:. We've had some nice sailing on the Folkboat though so not all's lost! Have a new bandsaw ready to install and a I brought a Fein Multimaster and a few other bits and pieces back from Vietnam, the brattice cover has protected the Twister beautifully so it's all go here if the weather ever improves! Not sure if or when I'll be returning to VN at this stage but I should have at least a month to fix up the shed a bit and continue hacking away at the Twister. Rick

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_4691.jpg

RFNK

02-22-2010, 06:11 AM

Planned progress over the last couple of months has been extremely limited - by work on the Folkboat, lots of sailing :) and I've rearranged the shed again and built a fairly big new workbench. Nevertheless, there has a been a little bit of progress. I've removed the two planks at the turn of the bilge on the starboard side to gain access to the sternpost where it has some sort of rot (more like breakdown of the fibres) where the propellor shaft enters the interior. The sternpost is a massive structure, made from two pieces of timber that looks like mahogany laminated so that each side extends from the top of the transom to the keel. I'm planning to use flooded gum for the repair, if I can get nice dry stuff. I'll cut the old sternpost from its upper side near the bottom of the transom in a straight line down to the point where the sternpost meets the knee and glue a new single piece in. I'll make it a bit higher than the old sternpost to provide more timber around the shaft.

I've also removed a couple of frames from the same area. Tomorrow I plan to remove a section of one more plank so there's better access to the area of the sternpost where I plan to cut. I'll take some pictures of all this when I remove that section of planking.

I also removed some steel floors that had been built in at some point in this boat's history. There's quite a bit of damaged timber around the SS fastenings for the floors so I assumed there must have been corrosion in the fastenings but .... not so. I'm guessing that an earlier set of floors and fastenings may have caused the problem but I really don't know. Someone might know so here are some pictures:

These are the floors, obviously put in to accommodate a water tank

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_5272.jpg

And this is an example of the damage caused, presumably, by fasteners

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_5276.jpg

Rick

RFNK

02-23-2010, 03:52 AM

This is the sternpost exposed with a line marked where I'll cut it away to glue on a new piece. You can see the damaged front of it - it's built with two pieces laminated side by side. It seems to me that the propellor shaft must have had a fair bit of vibration and that's destroyed the timber where the shaft enters the interior. it doesn't seem to be rot.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_5291.jpg

Rick

Larks

02-23-2010, 04:48 AM

Sorry Rick, but I feel so much better seeing photos of your hull:o

RFNK

02-23-2010, 05:15 AM

That's OK Greg! I keep changing my mind about the best approach! At this stage, I think I'll replace all suspect planking with strip planking. It's very compatible with a splined hull and I should be able to achieve fairer curves at the tight turn into the bilge using this method. I'm replacing most of the frames anyway so why not? I can get back at you though - my gaps in the keel aren't as big as yours! :D

Oh, some good news too - I've removed a couple of frames and they've retained their shape perfectly, no spring back at all. This is great as it means I'll be able to use them to set up a jig for the new frames, except for the problem, cracked part, of course. I'll be replacing about 40 frames so this is a real boost! Rick

Rick

rufustr

02-24-2010, 04:01 AM

Bump.

OK.

Time for an update Rick.

:cool::cool::cool::cool:

RFNK

02-24-2010, 05:39 AM

OK, I'll take some pictures of the latest bit of hacking tomorrow :D Rick

RFNK

02-25-2010, 04:30 AM

Here's the bit of sternpost cut away. You can see how it's split through along the glue line. If you look carefully you might also notice that the screws fastening the stern gland were also ridiculously close to the edges. The new piece will need to be wider to accommodate this although I'll be using a different type of bearing - a sealed one!

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_5293.jpg

This is the sternpost with the offending part removed. You can see how a void remained when the two sides were laminated - this couldn't have helped! The crack at the bottom of the picture is actually checking in the knee - not actually too bad but I'll dig it out a bit later and fill it anyway.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_5294.jpg

This is how it looks now. The area for the new section to be glued and fastened on has been cut and planed and the void along the glue line has been dug out and squared off. I'll glue a spline in here, with the grain running at about 30 degrees off the grain of the sternpost. The area has been contaminated with diesel so prior to gluing I'll need to wash it all down with acetone and see if that removes oil from the surface. I may glue a bit of wood on as a test first. I have a bit of time as I don't have the timber to replace the section I removed yet!

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_5297.jpg

I also got the first quote for all the flooded gum I'm going to need to replace planking and build new frames - $1300! Erk! :eek:

Rick

RFNK

02-26-2010, 06:57 AM

A block of mahogany 1m x 150mm x 150mm to replace the shaft log section of the sternpost will cost me .... $260! Yikes! So, looks like I'll be using PNG rosewood (one of my very favourite timbers) instead. I can get 75mm x 75mm rosewood so I'll just laminate that up, at about a third the price of the mahogany. The rosewood should be more durable, glues well and seems very stable so, hopefully will be suitable. Rick

RFNK

03-12-2010, 03:01 AM

Got the new shaft log in. It's a bit bigger than the old one to accommodate the different style of shaft bearing I'm going to use:

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_5580.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_5579.jpg

I also made up a jig for laminating new frames. I've put an old frame into the jig so you can see how it will (hopefully) work:

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_5581.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_5582.jpg

Progress is slow but it's nice to start adding rather than removing! Rick

shamus

03-12-2010, 09:14 AM

I like the jig Rick.
I admit to having a few doubts about this project when you were telling me about it, but you're making good progress.
Making a new toerail myself, and that seems quite enough of a job to me!

Candyfloss

03-12-2010, 02:24 PM

That's clever, Rick.

How important do you think springback is? I mean, the ribs hold the planks in shape & the planks hold the ribs in shape.......

RFNK

03-12-2010, 04:34 PM

I'm sure springback is an issue but these laminated ribs will be fairly solid (about 40 x 40mm) so I'm not expecting too much. They'll all be bevelled to fit after lamination so hopefully there'll be enough leeway in the process for a good, tight fit. Rick

RFNK

03-14-2010, 05:19 AM

Well, I hope expectations weren't too high regarding progress on this project. Next week I have to return to Vietnam for a while - not sure how long this time but the Twister will have to wait a bit longer unattended. Sorry! Rick

RFNK

09-05-2010, 12:18 PM

No progress - just bumping! Happy to report though that the brattice cover has survived recent winds (seems to have been the windiest late winter in NSW for a long time) unscathed. Rick

Larks

09-05-2010, 04:45 PM

What's the story Rick? Been a bit slack haven't you mate!!!!??

RFNK

09-05-2010, 08:17 PM

You could say that but it's just a bit tricky trying to work on a boat in Oz while living in Vietnam! I haven't been home since March. Rick

Larks

09-05-2010, 08:36 PM

You could say that but it's just a bit tricky trying to work on a boat in Oz while living in Vietnam! I haven't been home since March. Rick
That's a long stint. When are you home next?

RFNK

09-05-2010, 09:28 PM

I don't expect to be home until early January. Rick

Lucky Luke

09-05-2010, 11:12 PM

I don't expect to be home until early January. Rick

That will give you plenty enough time to pay us a visit ;)

RFNK

09-06-2010, 12:28 AM

I will, I will, thanks! Rick

RFNK

02-19-2011, 06:17 AM

OK, back from Vietnam now and working in the Land of Oz, it's time to resurrect the Twister restoration and this thread. This summer's been really sunny and windy here in New South Wales - we've had floods up in Queensland and also down south in Victoria but here in the middle it's just been hot, dry and windy for the last couple of months. Great for sailing and we've been out on the Folkboat at just about every opportunity. But now, it's Twister time. First of all, we' had to level it up fore and aft so we used the ol' tube of water arrangement and that seems to have worked well. I used the old boot top as the reference so we'll just have to see later on how level that really is.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_7541.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_7544.jpg

Then we levelled it up across the beam and improved the props.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_7551.jpg

So, framing's next. I intend to use PNG rosewood to make up the laminates for the frames. Hopefully the wood'll be here within a week or so.
Rick

Larks

02-19-2011, 07:22 AM

Nice to see you back at it Rick. Do you want me to chase up that timber source up in Bris?

kazeai1969

02-19-2011, 08:21 AM

Welcome back!

floatingkiwi

02-19-2011, 11:05 AM

Excellent. Say, where the heck has this thread been? Whatever, it is good to see Twister, getting attention.

This is a cool shot.
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_4691.jpg

RFNK

02-20-2011, 02:09 AM

Thanks fellas! Yes Greg, if you have a good source for PNG rosewood or flooded gum up there, that would be great. I'm after dry boards suitable for planking, in 4 x 1 or wider (but they don't need to be wider), in lengths of about 4m (a bit shorter is okay, a bit longer is also good but I don't want to pay a premium for length.

I should mention that it's still going to be slow going on the Twister as I'm working full time again and I also have a house to paint! Anfd there are distractions - had a great sail yesterday!
Rick

Allison

02-20-2011, 04:16 AM

I should mention that it's still going to be slow going on the Twister as I'm working full time again and I also have a house to paint! Anfd there are distractions - had a great sail yesterday!
Rick

No excuses Rick! We want pics of building work, no more skiving off with holidays to Tassie and sailing on the weekends!:D

RFNK

02-21-2011, 05:20 AM

Holidays in Tassie give me a chance to see Able Mabel, the only other Twister I've actually seen in Oz. She was built by a guy in Tassie about 10 years ago (maybe less) and he did a great job:

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_7866.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_4024.jpg

Inspiring!

Rick

Larks

02-21-2011, 05:22 AM

And for sale. I had a good look over her with a friend who was quite interested in her, she's lovely (but I think she's a bit small for him and his family).

RFNK

02-22-2011, 04:29 AM

Larks

02-22-2011, 04:38 AM

Yep, great boat but if I really had my druthers I'd go for something about 34' I reckon. But, we have this one and I think for a couple it should be great and there's no doubt about their seaworthiness. Ours is heading for Tassie or the GBR or maybe even the Land of the Long White Cloud if I get brave enough, or maybe all three! How would you say the room inside Able Mabel compares to the H28 Greg? I'd say she'd be a bit roomier as she's a bit deeper and has a smaller cockpit. What did you think?
Rick

I was actually a bit surprised that she seemed so "pokey" inside, the H28s all seem more spacious in their various layouts. My friends have three very young children and the five of them would fit reasonably comfortably into a H28 but we looked at Able Mable with that comparison in mind and it just didn't seem to have enough space for them all. Though that may have been the layout and I didn't get any shots inside her to remind myself why she seemed so pokey.

RFNK

02-22-2011, 04:55 AM

Hmmm, well this is Mabel's interior, from the last WBF:

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_3995.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_3997.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/IMG_3998.jpg

Unfortunately I didn't take a whole of cabin shot. It didn't feel pokey to me but then, after a Folkboat, nothing else seems pokey!!
Rick

Larks

02-22-2011, 05:01 AM

Sorry Rick, Pokey is probably the wrong word, I just found her that little bit smaller than I'd want for myself and too "cosey" for my friends family. But I think that forward bulkhead and narrow doorway doesn't help. I reckon you could do away with that, have a porta loo instead of a head and open up the bow to the cabin a bit more.

RFNK

02-22-2011, 05:10 AM

No apology required! I don't want our boat to be pokey so any of your ideas on how to make it less so are most welcome! Those bulkheads are under the mast step so they're needed for strength. However, I'm going to be putting in a series of ring frames (so to speak) in that area so I should be able to widen that entry to the forward berths I think. I probably will install a toilet though as we want this boat set up for cruising and I think Trace's tolerance for the bucket might be wearing a bit thin.
Rick

maxwaterline

02-22-2011, 06:13 AM

Rick, some quick comments. Laminated ribs are good, but messy to do. Could be better to laminate in situ, do every second rib. Fasten from outside with chipboard screws through existing rivet holes till glue sets. Predrill for screws, use pine blocks on inside as "nut". Drill correct size for copper nails, some WD40 sprayed in hole before nail being driven in helps. Minimum 5 laminations to minimise springback but there will be a little. Laminated ribs will be harder to spring into place if not perfect, some fairing may be needed. Back up any glued heavy section timbers with metal fasteners. That plank damage near fasteners looks like some electrolysis damage, possibly rusted steel/iron floors replaced with stainless floors. Would be concerned about boat strength in aft area, maybe laminate some "bridle" pieces across the top of the stern post to land on top of ribs, use longer nails through both and a couple of srews to attach to the sternpost. Re room inside, Ghost is probably similar to Twister, typically english, deep but not so wide. American boats seem to have more room due to greater beam. I do like the standing headroom in Ghost for the full cabin length, which I dont think a standard H28 has. A compression post will free up room forward, if cabin extends forward of mast.

Cheers for now
Adrian

Twister

02-22-2011, 08:05 AM

Good luck with that restoration - a big job but you seem to have the energy and enthusiasm to carry it through.

I have a Twister - a 1967 composite boat built by Upham's of Brixham, Devon.

They are fine boats. I have had mine for 14 years and have no desire to change to any other boat.

Have you joined the Twister Class association, by the way? You would be very welcome.

http://www.twister.org.uk/index.html

RFNK

02-23-2011, 05:33 AM

Thanks Adrian. I quite like laminating though and I don't find it too messy. I'm going to use the jig I made up to form the new frames and then fair them in. I'm going to replace about half the frames - all frames from the mast back. The frames will be substantially thicker than the existing steamed frames and I'm going to fasten the planking with screws into the new frames rather than copper nails. There is a cabin forward of the mast, in fact there's quite a lot of room up there, so I don't want to use a compression post. I'll be setting up several ring frames (almost) near the mast so I'll just see whether I can reduce the restriction caused by the current bulkhead arrangement. I think the stern area is pretty strong so maybe it just looks a bit light in the photos. I'm sure you're right re the damage to planking and frames from those metal floors. They were installed to accommodate a water tank. This is the original design but I don't know whether the floors that were there were original or not. I'm not sure yet what I'll do about replacing them.

Twister, great to have you on this thread - I hope you'll be able to answer a few queries as I go with this! I have contacted the Twister Association and did get a response. I'll dig out the old emails and see what it was.
Rick

RFNK

02-28-2011, 02:10 AM

Well, I just picked up 45 metres of 100 x 38 PNG rosewood from a supplier in Sydney. I'm assured the stuff only comes from certified suppliers in PNG, which should mean that the timber mill supports sustainable logging and supports local landholders - I hope so! This should be enough to do most of the frames, if I don't mess too many up! So, I'll be looking for planking timber now - either PNG rosewood or flooded gum, I think. So, I just need to finish painting the front of our house and I'll then be able to spend a bit of time making up the new frames.
Rick

Larks

02-28-2011, 05:46 AM

RFNK

03-01-2011, 12:50 AM

I'm not sure how the price compares as I don't have prices from up your way. As far as sizes go, they seem to be able to supply a large range and the lengths are good - up to about 4m.
Rick

Larks

03-01-2011, 04:42 AM

Sorry Rick, I thought I sent you the cubic meter price from the guy in Bris'?? He had 125mm x 36mm; 100mm x 36mm and 75mm x 25mm in 3metre lengths at $3500.00 per cubic metre.

RFNK

03-01-2011, 05:16 AM

Thanks Greg. I don't remember seeing that. Anyway, it was a bit dearer than that but not too much! I'm pretty convinced that they got it from a kosher source so I don't mind paying that bit extra.
Rick

RFNK

05-17-2011, 09:14 AM

Just bumping this up. I'm wrapped up in work and shed and house renovations at present so the Twister remains on hold. Lots of ideas developing though!

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/P1000781.jpg

Rick

RFNK

09-23-2011, 05:04 PM

No progress to report except the wind ripped the cover to pieces so I'm about to put corrugated steel sheet up there instead! Just bumping this up for Euro.
Rick

09-23-2011, 05:22 PM

You've had some wild weather down that way I believe.

RFNK

09-23-2011, 08:57 PM

A bit. You guys up there are lucky you live in a light wind area |:)
Rick

09-23-2011, 10:57 PM

That's why I made my sail bigger than the 303 sq ft on the plans.:D

RFNK

10-28-2011, 12:20 AM

Bump for Sayla but some progress to report soon!!
Rick

RFNK

11-08-2011, 04:15 AM

Bump for Jargo. Check post #135. Let me know if you need a closer view.
Rick

PeterSibley

11-08-2011, 04:35 AM

RFNK

11-08-2011, 04:42 AM

I haven't been looking Peter. I've been rebuilding and extending the shed and we've just started on house renovations. When I get back into the boat project, I'll be replacing frames for quite some time so there's no hurry. As part of the shed extension though, I'm building some timber racks at the back so I'll be able to store planking etc. At the moment, I just have nowhere to put long planks so it's probably a good thing that I don't have the planking yet. I think I'll take a trip up north when I am ready to get some planks though. At the moment, I'm sort of chasing some fairly big slabs for kitchen benches - I'd like to use blue gum if I can get it in big enough pieces. Any dark brown wood would suit though I think.
Rick

PeterSibley

11-08-2011, 05:21 AM

Ask Cockatoo Creek Timbers ... he has a wide bandsaw and specialises in that sort of thing .

Cockatoo Creek Timbers Mount St, Dundurrabin, NSW 2453
Clarence NSW, Clarence Valley, Mid North Nsw Coast
p: (02) 6657 8122
Website - none provided
Email - none provided | Directions

Re the gum ,when you need some ask me , there are a few decent mills up here and i may be able to help.

Peter

RFNK

11-08-2011, 07:35 AM

Thanks Peter - that's great!
Rick

11-08-2011, 03:33 PM

Flooded Gum is nice if you can get a mature tree.

PeterSibley

11-08-2011, 04:33 PM

Mature trees are pretty thin on the ground but one even 30 years old will yield good timber .I've got a few here I planted 30 odd years ago that are going to come down soon .They're 18 to 20 inches through at head height and should be good .

I don't think flooded gum is as flexible as spotted gum but the regrowth stuff you will get is a lot lighter ,almost like meranti sometimes .Not very durable by hardwood standards though, so don't make fence posts from it ! :d

RFNK

11-08-2011, 11:09 PM

Flooded gum is a very stable wood for boatbuilding. Spotted gum is much less stable. Whatever I use has to be compatible with the existing splined mahogany hull so spotted gum isn't an option as it's too unstable and too different in density from the existing planking. I'll probably sheath this hull anyway so maybe the stability of spotted gum wouldn't be that important then but I'd still have a problem with density (weight) as I'll have a lot more new planking on the starboard side than the port side. My current intention is to use flooded gum. If good planks become available at any time over the next year or two then I'll certainly be chasing them!
Rick

PeterSibley

11-08-2011, 11:59 PM

Flooded gum and mahogany would be a good match, especially the much lighter regrowth we see now .
Any idea of thickness x width x length ?

RFNK

11-09-2011, 12:08 AM

Duncan Gibbs

11-09-2011, 01:01 AM

PeterSibley

11-09-2011, 04:06 AM

I think so too. I don't want to run planks full length so 4m lengths would be good. Thickness about 25mm dressed to allow for fairing. Width will vary but some should be about 250mm or even wider, while 200 should be fine for most. I think I'll need about 30 lengths but 40 wouldn't go astray.
Rick

Those sizes will be easy enough to find I'd say but wider than 250 might be fun.Were I you I'd start sniffing around for small mills than have a supply of gum logs .

11-09-2011, 05:42 AM

Flooded gum will take impressive curves. I bent my stringers and chines through compound curves towards the stem and all without steaming. It impressed me.

RFNK

11-09-2011, 08:04 PM

Why on Earth would you want to sheath the hull Rick?

My view is that you would go the whole nine yards and sheath the thing inside and out and make sure every point where water could make ingress or be trapped bullet proof so it just cannot happen, or you just do it the old fashioned way and let the timber be timber. Seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem.

Once I get milling (soon I hope) I may have a reasonable idea of how much FG I have up here. This is old growth stuff taken from a development site, so it's dense and should come off the saw reasonably straight. I want to use some for Erica for the inner diagonal layer, but may well have a bunch to spare at the end.

The sheathing will be very strong, designed to strengthen and stiffen the hull. It will be a full wrap of the ouside, with ballast removed. The hull is already splined so it's equivalent to a strip-planked hull. I won't go into all the reasons why strip-planked hulls are usually sheathed these days but it's the opposite of wanting timber to do what timber in and out of water wants to do! I'll use two layers of double bias. Apart from wanting a stronger, stiffer hull (the boat was designed for racing, I'm not interested in racing - just cruising), I also want a hull that can take antifoul designed for glass boats. It's much more durable and effective than the AF available for timber boats - this has environmental, financial and time-related benefits.

I cannot agree with the idea that a hull should be sheathed on the inside and the outside. I think moisture is more likely to be trapped in this sandwich and mahogany is unfortunately prone to rot. I'll oil or varnish the interior so that I'll always be able to see what the timber's up to, and I'll set up all the interior so that it's clear and well-ventilated.

I've listened to the various views on this topic and have heard very good reasons to take a range of different approaches, from very knowledgeable and experienced people. I respect them all but I'm not going to load the donkey, chook, pig etc. on my back and fall into the river, so I have to make a choice. I know what I have and what I want and I believe that sheathing done correctly is the best option. Even if I was going to replank the whole boat, I would sheath it. This boat was built by one of the best boatbuilders in Sydney in the 1960s. After 50 years, there are some problems with the methods used and the materials used. I intend to learn from that and improve the boat with modern materials and methods. I'm not going to steam in the new frames as I know they'll crack again. I'm not going to have a ply deck with sheathing that doesn't go right over the gunwhales, as this causes rot, and I'll ensure that there are no holes in the deck that water can penetrate (as this ensures rot!). I'll strengthen the hull through stronger frames and sheathing, and use sheathing to protect the existing mahogany that I won't be replacing (all mahogany that is rotten or suspect will be replaced) as mahogany is very soft - not suitable for the hull of a cruising yacht in my opinion.
Rick

Larks

11-09-2011, 10:07 PM

There's a lovely old Norman wright yacht in the yard at work at the moment, Oregon planked hull. The hull is in sound condition but the owner has been bothered that when he hauls it out the guys washing down the hull seem to be cutting into the timber more and more each time with the pressure wash. So he is glassing the eXterior this haul out, as recommended by wrights. They told him that they've done it countless times to older boats and as long as the timber feels and looks nice and dry it's fine to glass. They say not to glass the inside of it.

PeterSibley

11-09-2011, 10:16 PM

Is that the bloke I meet while I was visiting that day Greg ?

A pressure wash on Oregon sounds like a horrible idea !! :(

Larks

11-09-2011, 10:24 PM

Is that the bloke I meet while I was visiting that day Greg ?

A pressure wash on Oregon sounds like a horrible idea !! :(
I don't remember whether you met him or not Peter, his name is Bill. You met mark who owns Catersons now and he is working on Bills yacht but I don't think it was out at that time

Candyfloss

11-10-2011, 02:56 AM

Glass it on the outside, keep it dry on the inside. Sounds like a winning formula to me Rick.

Duncan Gibbs

11-10-2011, 03:08 AM

Fair enough Rick; sounds perfectly reasonable.

RFNK

11-10-2011, 05:30 PM

Glass it on the outside, keep it dry on the inside. Sounds like a winning formula to me Rick.

Hope so!
Rick

Duncan Gibbs

11-10-2011, 10:54 PM

Hey Rick, PM me your phone number if you want to talk Flooded Gum.

RFNK

12-09-2011, 05:00 PM

We put tin up on the roof of the Twister `shed' recently:

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/Windroseshed1.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/Windroseshed3.jpg

OK, it's not an ideal shed but it's nice and cool and should last long enough.

The other shed's what's been taking most of my spare time lately. It's now looking like this:

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/Shed3.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/Shed2.jpg

And, as we need to have multiple projects in train, the house currently looks like this:

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/rfnk/House1.jpg

Rick

Duncan Gibbs

12-09-2011, 06:12 PM

Hey! You and yours are just like SWIMPAL and I! :D:D

RFNK

12-11-2011, 07:05 PM

As in, too many projects happening all at once? Probably! Well, the boat shed is now set up pretty much how I want it - all the clutter under it is from the demolition of the bits of the house we're changing, so that's temporary. I will build some steps up to the boat deck too later on. The work shed is set up inside how I want it now - I'll post a picture of that if anyone's interested and over the next few weeks I hope to put some windows in the back wall, set up timber racks outside the back wall, and complete the drainage. The house is a fairly major project - I have a friend who's a builder doing most of the new framing and foundations but I'll be doing all the cladding, finishing and interior, including a new kitchen and upstairs bathroom. But I'm going to do the hpouse and boat in parallel to avoid letting either go for too long and also to avoid getting too sick of the one job. So, once the work shed is finished early next year, then I should be able to start work on the Twister again.

Duncan, I'll come and get the timber from you once I have the racks set up at the back of the shed. This should be in January. However, let me know if you need any help with that timber before that and I'll get up there.

For those who don't know, Duncan's letting me have a stack of flooded gum (for planking), silky oak (for the kitchen in the house) and white mahogany (for floors etc.) from some logs he's having milled. Duncan lives up the road from me, about 400 miles away, so I need to arrange a trailer or truck to get the timber home. It's green so Duncan needs to rack out all the timber he's cutting and I'll need to rack out my part of it back at home.

Rick