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View Full Version : Greetings on ' the fourth'.



Syed
07-04-2009, 08:33 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Fourth_of_July_fireworks_behind_the_Washington_Mon ument%2C_1986.jpg/250px-Fourth_of_July_fireworks_behind_the_Washington_Mon ument%2C_1986.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fourth_of_July_fireworks_behind_the_Washingto n_Monument,_1986.jpg)
Independence Day


Syed

Hwyl
07-04-2009, 08:56 AM
Thanks Syed, hoping to mail my citizenship papers tomorrow

elf
07-04-2009, 08:58 AM
Hey Gareth, are we all invited to the swearing in? Boy, can we make that into a party!

Hwyl
07-04-2009, 09:03 AM
It's not a done deal.

skuthorp
07-04-2009, 09:40 AM
Happy 4th of july all.
Coincidentally I'm reading an account of the military campaign Howe vs Washington in 1776-7 around the NY area.

Captain Intrepid
07-04-2009, 12:19 PM
Happy birthday, my American cousins!

S/V Laura Ellen
07-04-2009, 12:27 PM
Enjoy your day!

http://wolcarolina.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/american-flag-and-fireworks.jpg

paladin
07-04-2009, 12:30 PM
Remember the Alamo......

ishmael
07-04-2009, 12:55 PM
Thanks, Syed. For all its faults, it's still a pretty damn good country. I'm glad to have been born and to live here. Our creed gets muddled, but we always seem to make it right again.

"We hold these truths to be self evident. That men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights."

Syed
07-04-2009, 02:19 PM
Thanks, Syed. For all its faults, it's still a pretty damn good country. I'm glad to have been born and to live here. Our creed gets muddled, but we always seem to make it right again.

"We hold these truths to be self evident. That men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights."

East or west, home is best. :)

botebum
07-04-2009, 03:09 PM
You're all invited to my house for fireworks and beer. Bring fireworks and beer:D
Thanks Syed. I hope that someday your country can live in peace. Mine too.:(

Doug

bamamick
07-04-2009, 08:02 PM
Thank you, Syed. You are truly a gentleman.

Peace be with you, ol' buddy (I AM from Alabama, after all).

Mickey Lake

Stiletto
07-05-2009, 01:17 AM
Best wishes to all on your National Day.

Syed
07-05-2009, 04:30 AM
You're all invited to my house for fireworks and beer. Bring fireworks and beer:D
Thanks Syed. I hope that someday your country can live in peace. Mine too.:(

Doug

A very safe invitation ;) and very meaningful wishes, thanks. :)

Robbie 2
07-05-2009, 04:55 AM
Happy Birthday to all my imaginary American friends.:)

boatbear
07-05-2009, 05:33 AM
Happy Independence day, 'mericans. And well done, for shaking off the yoke of english tyranny. If we have a tea party here in Oz, you are all invited.

Rigadog
07-05-2009, 06:34 AM
Remember the Alamo......

Remember the Maine...

oznabrag
07-05-2009, 08:24 AM
Remember the Maine...


Remember the cooler!

Art Read
07-05-2009, 08:24 AM
"Coincidentally I'm reading an account of the military campaign Howe vs Washington in 1776-7 around the NY area."

Jeff Shaara?

Captain Intrepid
07-05-2009, 05:32 PM
Remember the Alamo......

Ah yes, part of the war where illegal immigrants took over part of Mexico? :p

ishmael
07-05-2009, 06:16 PM
"Coincidentally I'm reading an account of the military campaign Howe vs Washington in 1776-7 around the NY area."

Jeff Shaara?

I've not read that book, but he, like his father, is pretty good at the historical novel. An eye for detail and for getting the facts straight. If you haven't read "The Killer Angels" Michael Sharra, about Gettysburg, have a look.

When I lived in Baltimore I spent a fair amount of time wandering that battlefield. It was an hour away, and Gettysburg is a pleasant town for a visit. A bit touristy, but who can blame them?

Looking down or up that hill, where the flower of the Confederacy withered when Pickett charged, takes more than a few moments to ponder. I kept asking myself, "What was Lee thinking?" He'd seen the affect of strong emplacements on troops in the open, yet he chose this. Some sort of last chance gambit? If we don't do it now we won't?

A peculiar failing in an otherwise stellar military career. His right hand, General James Longstreet went to him and said,"General, we can't beat them here, let's maneuver." To which Lee replied, "No, the enemy is there and I'm going to attack them."

bamamick
07-05-2009, 06:21 PM
Jack, it is just my opinion, but 'the Killer Angels' was magic, magic that the father caught while the son doesn't seem to be able to. I have read several of Jeff's books, and they seem to plod along. They are alright, but they are not riveting, as was the original.

As I say, this is just my opinion.

Mickey Lake

oznabrag
07-05-2009, 07:06 PM
I kept asking myself, "What was Lee thinking?" He'd seen the affect of strong emplacements on troops in the open, yet he chose this. Some sort of last chance gambit? If we don't do it now we won't?

A peculiar failing in an otherwise stellar military career. His right hand, General James Longstreet, went to him and said,"General, we can't beat them here, let's maneuver." To which Lee replied, "No, the enemy is there and I'm going to attack them."

Lee was probably thinking that, if he were less of a gentleman (and had the time), he would like to beat J.E.B. Stuart to death with his fists.

Phillip Allen
07-05-2009, 07:20 PM
It's not a done deal.

you may be in trouble...I think they require a photo :)

ishmael
07-05-2009, 07:20 PM
General Stewart (Stuart?) was, by all accounts, a bit of a dandy. Oiled ringlets of hair and such. A fine horseman, and a smart fellow. But I don't think the horse troops would have impacted this battle much, even if he had reported back on time. If he'd ridden in when appointed, reported a major force, The Army of the Potomac, on the move, Lee might have maneuvered away from Gettysburg. Hard to say. He didn't.

oznabrag
07-05-2009, 07:39 PM
General Stewart (Stuart?) was, by all accounts, a bit of a dandy. Oiled ringlets of hair and such. A fine horseman, and a smart fellow. But I don't think the horse troops would have impacted this battle much, even if he had reported back on time. If he'd ridden in when appointed, reported a major force, The Army of the Potomac, on the move, Lee might have maneuvered away from Gettysburg. Hard to say. He didn't.

Not even close to 'on time'.

Lee told him that he must not, under any circumstances attempt one of his famous 'rides around the enemy', but he did it anyway. For 3 days he left Lee on the move through hostile territory with no eyes or ears.

Not only that, but he found the enemy, two whole armies of them, and led them straight back to Lee, who, up to that point, had been almost miraculously undetected.

Stuart was, as you say, something of a dandy and a ballsy horseman and a leader of men and a great favorite with the ladyfolk, but he was a self-aggrandizing, egotistical nitwit when it came to following orders. That is why Lee gave him a direct order not to do what he ended up doing.

This left Lee in a geographical position not of his choosing; it left him constrained to engage with an enemy of much greater strength (though this was the norm in that war); and it left him engaging enemy officers who were well beyond the immediate control of their bumbling, timid superiors.

It is my opinion that, if it were not for Stuart's insubordination, Gettysburg would not, could not have happened. It is also my opinion that, if it were not for Stuart's insubordination, Lee's campaign into the North would have been a deadly blow to the US.

Washington was his for the taking, in my opinion.

ishmael
07-05-2009, 08:08 PM
I hadn't remembered that Stuart was that late. Not doubting you, I had forgotten. A bit of a glory hound. If Lee hadn't needed him he'd have ended up before a courts martial.

Interesting to chew on. Though it happened a century and half back it still impacts us today.

J. Dillon
07-05-2009, 08:33 PM
Back to the 4th.

It sure was a miracle that the upstart revolutionaries won the war considering all the defeats we suffered during the conflict. It seems to me that British General Clinton not backing up Cornwallis at the battle of Yorktown and letting the French sail in that really won it for us.

I understand General Clinton was with his mistress too much and ignored Cornwallis pleas for reinforcements. Sex was part of our victory.;)

Also ole Ben Franklin was influencing the right people of both sexes in Paris.

JD

ishmael
07-05-2009, 09:43 PM
Interestingly, Lee pulled back, retreated, on the evening of the third and the day of the fourth. Meade, not thinking much about attack, let them slink away to fight another day. A more aggressive man would have gone after them.

It was a huge defeat. The end of the Confederate dream. But the war might have ended right there if Meade had garnered his forces and gone after them on Independence Day.

ishmael
07-05-2009, 10:01 PM
"Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect,
but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in."

John Kennedy.

bamamick
07-06-2009, 05:21 AM
thread drift.......but it might be worthwhile to remember that Stuart had been nothing but a lieutenant in the US Army. He was still a very young man. Obviously he was capable or Lee would not have given him command of an entire corps, which he did later on. It is obvious to us that he made a mistake in the early days of July, 1863, but my question is why did Lee not send people out to find him and bring him in, or at least check with him? Did he trust Stuart that much to have left the fate of the entire operation on that one man's judgement?

iirc Stuart was killed at Yellow Tavern later in the war.

Mickey Lake