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Keith Wilson
07-02-2009, 11:22 AM
Check this out; a long memo, but it's absolutely fascinating to read. (http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/frank-luntz-the-language-of-healthcare-20091.pdf) It's by Frank Luntz, a conservative consultant and pollster, and it describes in great detail the language he thinks Republicans should use to oppose health care reform - while claiming that they support reform, of course. He acknowledges that a considerable majority of Americans think major change is needed, and concentrates on trying to make them afraid. Orwell would be proud.

Tom Montgomery
07-02-2009, 11:54 AM
Republicans almost have fear mongering down to a science.

Isn't it interesting that one of our Canadian forumites -- Nanoose -- listed their single-payer health care system as one of "The Top Ten Reasons We Love Canada?"

John of Phoenix
07-02-2009, 12:01 PM
Republicans almost have fear mongering down to a science.Almost?

Fear, hate and lies.

Krunch
07-02-2009, 12:11 PM
So...liberals don't also spin through the selective use of language? :confused:

These "talking points" memos are probably Washington's single largest product.

Captain Intrepid
07-02-2009, 12:12 PM
Republicans almost have fear mongering down to a science.

Isn't it interesting that one of our Canadian forumites -- Nanoose -- listed their single-payer health care system as one of "The Top Ten Reasons We Love Canada?"

It really is beloved. There are problems with it, but any politician who'd dare suggest anything different, for example the rich being able to pay extra for preferential treatment, would be burned at the public stake.

Keith Wilson
07-02-2009, 12:17 PM
So...liberals don't also spin through the selective use of language?I never said that; of course they do. It's just interesting to read such a clear explanation of how to use language to obscure what you're really advocating and make rational discussion more difficult.

Keith Wilson
07-02-2009, 12:50 PM
Fear works both ways, and I'm sure the other side knows that very well. Examples: If it can happen to her, it can happen to you. What if you get laid off? What if your employer decides to drop health coverage? What will your children do once they graduate from college?

I don't think the techniques described in the memo will work this time. But it does show why much public political discussion is so meaningless.

Popeye
07-02-2009, 01:21 PM
propaganda is nothing more than saying it over and over again

right or wrong does not matter , repeat the same message enough times and people will eventually line up and say the same thing

Glen Longino
07-02-2009, 01:24 PM
propaganda is nothing more than saying it over and over again

right or wrong does not matter , repeat the same message enough times and people will eventually line up and say the same thing

Like "Jesus Saves"?:rolleyes:

Popeye
07-02-2009, 01:26 PM
one example amongst many glen , the door swings both ways

Glen Longino
07-02-2009, 01:34 PM
Do you have an example of the door swinging the other way?

Popeye
07-02-2009, 01:36 PM
yes i do

Glen Longino
07-02-2009, 01:51 PM
wonderful!:D

Popeye
07-02-2009, 01:55 PM
on another thread , uncle dork is staring at his monitor and it hasn't changed any

i think he just isn't trying hard enough

PeterSibley
07-02-2009, 05:39 PM
Keith ,quite remarkable to see it in the "flesh ' ! As you say , not a word of rational argument , perception is all 1

BTW ,even our most conservative governments don't try to remove Australian Medicare ! It is much loved ...any attacks are strongly resisted .

peter radclyffe
07-02-2009, 05:46 PM
propaganda is nothing more than saying it over and over again

right or wrong does not matter , repeat the same message enough times and people will eventually line up and say the same thing
deksolje

JimD
07-02-2009, 05:53 PM
Republicans almost have fear mongering down to a science.

Isn't it interesting that one of our Canadian forumites -- Nanoose -- listed their single-payer health care system as one of "The Top Ten Reasons We Love Canada?"

At the heart of the Republican fear strategy is that if you're not careful with health care reform you'll end up like Canada. How's that for terrifying?

Keith Wilson
07-02-2009, 06:00 PM
. . How's that for terrifying?I would be absolutely ecstatic if we ended up with a system just like Canada's. They spend about 10% of GDP on health care; that would mean we'd save $1.44 trillion per year, which is about 45% of the '09 federal budget. It's also more money than is collected in individual income taxes from everybody in the whole USA. And everybody in Canada has health insurance. Pretty good deal, if you ask me.

JimD
07-02-2009, 06:29 PM
I would be absolutely ecstatic if we ended up with a system just like Canada's..And everybody in Canada has health insurance. Pretty good deal, if you ask me.

You'd give up your freedom for a little health care? And you call yourself an American!

Gonzalo
07-03-2009, 05:33 PM
I will fight to the death to have an insurance company bureaucrat deny me the health care coverage I paid for!! And you Canadians would too if only you knew how good it feels!

Hey, losing your coverage when you are unemployed, that feels good, too. I'm glad I live in the U.S.A., where we do everything better than any one else.

James McMullen
07-03-2009, 08:52 PM
The fact that stuff like this often works is exhibit A of the inherent problem at the heart of democracy. People with average to lower than average reasoning skills seriously outnumber the people with way above average reasoning.

coelacanth2
07-03-2009, 11:43 PM
At the risk of public excrutiation, I have several patients who hold dual Canadian/American citizenship, and who hold the Canadian system in almost total contempt. One of them is in the health care field - she is her ENT husband's insurance browbeater/office manager and can detail the problems far better than I could, seeing as her family is still stuck up there. (At the risk of being a bit snide, if you want a good look at public health, look at British teeth:eek::D). According to this lady, Montreal has far fewer MRI units than little Dover here, which is part of the reason for little things like 4 to 6 month waits for tests. Yes, a lot of this IS anecdotal but why do so many folks cross the border for sophisticated diagnostics? Managed care WILL mean rationing and the chestnut about the efficiency of the Post Office with the compassion of the IRS may just play out.

Milo Christensen
07-04-2009, 07:59 AM
I would be absolutely ecstatic if we ended up with a system just like Canada's. They spend about 10% of GDP on health care; that would mean we'd save $1.44 trillion per year . . .

So, you'd be ecstatic if 8% of the economy just went poof by legislative fiat? Ecstatic if unemployment went up by some 20 million laid off medical workers? Ecstatic?

elf
07-04-2009, 09:50 AM
They're not medical workers, Milo. They're paper pushers. They don't serve the medical needs of the patients, they serve the adminsitrative needs of the doctors and those needs are entirely created by the insurance system here.

30% of the cost of health care in the US is incurred by meeting the administrative requirements of some 180 different insurance companies nationwide.

The good part for most of those workers is that they have some really useful skills which port to other industries - like computer skills, office management skills, anger control skills, interpersonal skills.

Eliminating that expense for health care providers will open the door to more satisfying work for those office personnel. They have marketable skills.

elf
07-04-2009, 09:54 AM
British teeth is British diet.

Most American health insurance doesn't cover dental anyway.

How a population can expect to be healthy without dental care always amazes me, but the American system is largely predicated on that assumption.

elf
07-04-2009, 09:58 AM
You'd give up your freedom for a little health care? And you call yourself an American!

Freedom to not be able to afford to get sick. Great.:rolleyes:

Freedom to spend 45% of annual income on health insurance with a deductible 4 times what you have in the bank at any one time. Great.:rolleyes:

Freedom to permit the automobile industry to go down the drain from the weight of its legacy burden, a huge part of which is health care. Great.:rolleyes:

30% of the cost of health care in the cost of pushing paper. It's really stupid.

Milo Christensen
07-04-2009, 10:29 AM
. . . 30% of the cost of health care in the US is incurred by meeting the administrative requirements of some 180 different insurance companies nationwide. . . .

So, we'll save money by requiring 45 some odd million Americans to buy health insurance, many from some variation of the 180 different insurance companies nationwide. Please explain this.

What part of any of the legislation making it's way through Congress deals specifically with reducing the administrative requirements? Aside from the huge new element added to the IRS to check that you have a policy and fine you if you don't.

Flying Orca
07-04-2009, 10:34 AM
At the risk of public excrutiation, I have several patients who hold dual Canadian/American citizenship, and who hold the Canadian system in almost total contempt.

As long as we're being anecdotal, I have dual citizenship, and I think the Canadian system is vastly superior. It's much less expensive, and it covers everyone.


According to this lady, Montreal has far fewer MRI units than little Dover here, which is part of the reason for little things like 4 to 6 month waits for tests.

Depends on the urgency of the test. Non-life-threatening matters may have longer wait times than urgent tests.


Yes, a lot of this IS anecdotal but why do so many folks cross the border for sophisticated diagnostics?

"So many"? It's a very small number of people who both can afford to do so and choose to do so.

(edited to add this quote from the Denver Post article I linked in another thread)


Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it.While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.
There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one. In the U.S., if an insurance administrator says you are not getting an MRI, you don't get one no matter what your doctor thinks unless, of course, you have the money to cover the cost.
Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.
Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.

Nicholas Scheuer
07-04-2009, 10:36 AM
Very timely reading, Keith!

I've got a neighbor who has all of the "consevative" words and phrases down cold.

Thanks.

Moby Nick