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Ian McColgin
06-29-2009, 07:00 AM
Arizona may become the 41st state to allow bar patrons to carry concealed weapons. This has been a rather brilliantly played stealth campaign by the NRA's political arm, probably because most folk can't even imagine that rational politicians would vote for such a thing.

PeterSibley
06-29-2009, 07:09 AM
Only in America !

A great combination ,drunks and guns .

Nicholas Scheuer
06-29-2009, 07:19 AM
Wuz reading on MSN yesterday how a gun-toting preacher was allowing guns to be brought to church.

Moby Nick

Joe (SoCal)
06-29-2009, 07:49 AM
I don't need a gun to drink or pray

Tylerdurden
06-29-2009, 08:40 AM
Guns and alcohol don't mix well so I think its stupid but if it is a privately owned establishment I don't think its an issue. It should be up to the owner what he accepts just like smoking.

I don't think many understand how many concealed handguns there are in bars anyway. Laws don't have a thing to do with it.

BrianW
06-29-2009, 10:25 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/rainman.jpg

htom
06-29-2009, 11:17 AM
I have not read the Arizona law, but if it's typical, you're allowed to carry but not to drink while doing so. The idea is that the designated driver is going to carry, while the others don't carry; and not just in bars, but anywhere with a liqueur license, like restaurants and theaters.

Tylerdurden
06-29-2009, 11:20 AM
I have not read the Arizona law, but if it's typical, you're allowed to carry but not to drink while doing so. The idea is that the designated driver is going to carry, while the others don't carry; and not just in bars, but anywhere with a liqueur license, like restaurants and theaters.

Ah, Just common sense. No wonder the story has legs.:rolleyes:

Can't have common sense can we?

LeeG
06-29-2009, 11:48 AM
the sober shooter is supposed to protect the drinkers from predators?

this must be one of the indicators the apocalypse is around the corner.

htom
06-29-2009, 12:06 PM
I believe the idea is that the goblins will stop thinking of those leaving places that serve alcohol as being disarmed victims.

Iceboy
06-29-2009, 12:25 PM
Brian, that is too too funny! Jim....

elf
06-29-2009, 12:45 PM
Jeez. Find a safer bar, fercrissakes.

Arko
06-29-2009, 12:52 PM
Stupidest thing I've ever heard. Well, second to letting people drive a mobile weapon weighing in the thousands of pounds to bars and then allowing them to operate the weapon after consuming. I still do not hear anyone raising hell about that. But, hey, dying by having your body torn apart by a car is not nearly as bad as dying by a bullet. What a double standard.

Captain Intrepid
06-29-2009, 02:30 PM
I believe the idea is that the goblins will stop thinking of those leaving places that serve alcohol as being disarmed victims.

Mmmm. I'm glad those goblins haven't heard that Canadians feel perfectly safe without packing a weapon. We'd just be swimming in violent crime if they ever found out...

John of Phoenix
06-29-2009, 02:49 PM
The RWWs have been working on this for some time. They had to get a republican governor in who wouldn't veto it and now that they have one it's full throttle.

And yes, it's supposed to be no booze for a carrier but... the catch is how does the bartender know who's packing if it's concealed. The out for the bar is they can post a sign that prohibits weapons but again, if it's concealed...

That said, in Vietnam we were required to carry our weapons at all times - mess hall, PX, everywhere. EXCEPT where booze was served.

The sign inside every 1st Cav club read, "Clear your weapons and leave them here."

bobbys
06-29-2009, 03:06 PM
What if it was a Gay bar.

Would my gun have to match my outfit???.

Not that theres anything wrong with that!!!

paladin
06-29-2009, 03:26 PM
Green Beanie Bar and Grill near Nakhon Phanom, Thailand......similar rules but everyone carried a sidearm.....bartender kept a '97 winchester behind the bar......bar had slot machines across two perimeter walls.....signs everywhere in Thai and English....no jackpots paid to non-U.S. forces personnel............it was illegal in Thailand....
Thai Army Colonel....put his entire months salary into the one armed bandits, hits the jackpot, bartender points to the sign, Colonel draws his .45 and starts blasting away.....12 gauge trumps .45 auto......'cause I hit the floor as did all the other guys....the bar was made of cement blocks with a wood surfacing......his "associates" removed the body......
Same bar, different night.....U.S. Army Colonel has a few...goes outside to find he has a flat tire on his jeep....wanders around muttering to himself about no jack....4 of us reach over and lift the quarter panel of the jeep up while another guy takes off the tire and replaces it.....Colonel gets into the jeep floorboards it out the gate, broadsided by BIG Thai Banana truck....

Tom Galyen
06-29-2009, 03:57 PM
I noticed in Ian's starter thread the phrase, "this has been a rather brilliantly played stealth campaign by the NRA's political arm,"

This of course is different than the "stealth campaigns" of the leftist anti-gun nuts who constantly try to illegally disarm honest American citizens in their ongoing psychotic campaign against a tool.

BrianW
06-29-2009, 04:54 PM
I noticed in Ian's starter thread the phrase, "this has been a rather brilliantly played stealth campaign by the NRA's political arm,"

Guess it didn't make the daily headlines in Hyannis. Seems our Arizona resident knew about it though.

"Stealth", it's a selective son-of-a-gun. ;)

ishmael
06-29-2009, 05:12 PM
What was the question?

In most states a permit to carry a concealed weapon is a special license. If you have the license to carry concealed, does that mean you can't stop in for a drink while packing? I didn't know the laws in any state covered this question. I thought if you've got a license to carry concealed you could go anywhere public with it.

Goofy ****e.

John of Phoenix
06-29-2009, 05:24 PM
It's funny that the Earp brothers used to throw cowboys in the Tombstone hoosegow for toting a six gun into the Birdcage Saloon. We're gonna have to learn that lesson again.

CAUTION - THERE ARE SOME PROFOUNDLY STUPID STATEMENTS IN THIS ARTICLE.

Arizona moves to allow concealed guns in bars

PHOENIX (AP) — There was a time in the Wild West that cowboys had to check their guns before they could pull up a bar stool for a drink — rules that protected against the saloon gunfights that came to define the frontier era in places like Arizona.

But a bill moving through the Arizona Legislature has some bar owners fearful that the state is turning back the clock to the Old West. Lawmakers are considering a bill that would allow anyone with a concealed-weapons permit to bring a handgun into bars and restaurants serving alcohol.

The bill gives bars discretion to keep gun-toting patrons out, and anyone with a weapon would not be allowed to drink. But the bill has angered bar owners who believe booze and guns are a recipe for disaster.

"This might be one of the stupidest things that I have heard of," said Mike Nelson, who owns Pomeroy's bar in Phoenix and plans to post a sign on his front door outlawing guns in his bar as soon as possible. "Can you think of a single reason guns and alcohol should be intertwined?"

The bill is part of a nationwide push by the National Rifle Association. Georgia passed a similar law in 2008, as did Tennessee earlier this year in becoming the 40th state to allow bar or restaurant patrons to carry guns.

"These laws are common sense," said NRA spokeswoman Rachel Parsons. "Restaurants are not immune to criminal activity. Law-abiding people — regardless of whether they're in restaurants, cars or homes — they should be able to protect themselves against criminal attack."

One of the bill's sponsors, Republican Rep. John Kavanagh, said it's about time Arizona passes such a law, and that the most important thing is that people carrying guns into bars aren't allowed to drink.

"You don't want intoxicated people with weapons, and this bill continues the prohibition against drinking and carrying," said Kavanagh, a retired police officer in New York and New Jersey. "What is the problem with having a gun in a delicatessen where someone is having a beer with their pastrami two tables away?"

The law would only apply to people with concealed-weapons permits because lawmakers say that type of gun owner has to pass a background check and take an eight-hour course to get their permits, and are therefore safer. More than 127,000 Arizonans have concealed-weapons permits, according to the Arizona Department of Public Safety.

Arizonans are also allowed to openly carry guns — on a belt or holster, for example. But those people would still not be allowed in bars or restaurants serving alcohol if they're armed.

The bill has been approved by the Senate and is now before the House; Republican Gov. Jan Brewer would still have to OK it.

Marc Peagler, owner of the Silver Spur Saloon Restaurant in Cave Creek outside Phoenix, said he's in favor of the legislation and sees some marketing potential in it.

"I look at it this way — let's just say for a moment you're a crook or a thief," Peagler said. "Are you going to break into a place where you know that there might be 10 to 15 people who are armed? I wouldn't do that."

Peagler, a gun owner himself, said people with concealed-weapons permits aren't people to be concerned about.

"People who carry concealed weapons for the most part are your general law-abiding citizens, and the people who are going to break the law are going to do it no matter what laws we have out there," he said. "If somebody has been drinking and they have a weapon in the car, they're just going to go out and get it."

Frank Murray, owner of Seamus McCaffrey's Irish Pub & Restaurant in downtown Phoenix, said he opposes the law and will prohibit his customers from coming in armed.

"It's kind of like the Wild West days," he said. "We've got enough nuts out on the street walking around with guns. We don't need them in places with alcohol and families."

The Arizona Licensed Beverage Association threw its support behind the bill after some compromises were made this week. The Arizona Restaurant Association has taken a neutral stance, but in previous years came out against most bills that would have allowed guns in bars and restaurants with alcohol.

This year's bill is one of several measures loosening gun laws moving through the Arizona Legislature.

In May, the House overwhelmingly approved a bill that would permit gun owners to keep a weapon out of sight in a locked vehicle in a parking lot or garage. That would override employers that ban weapons on their property.

Last week, a Senate committee approved a bill that would allow Arizonans to carry concealed weapons without state permits, despite objections from law enforcement.

htom
06-29-2009, 06:50 PM
Many or most (I'd say all but I'm no expert) states prohibit the concealed carry of firearms while consuming alcohol, or if your blood alcohol level is above some level. Legal or not, it's a stupid thing to do.

Eventually there will be some "floods of blood on the streets", but so far, they've been caused by those who were unlicensed to carry (and who probably could not get a license if they'd applied.)

Vermont has no prohibition against concealed carry without a permit (or so it's said on the internet!), and it's hardly the place you think of for such things happening.

oznabrag
06-29-2009, 07:55 PM
Many or most (I'd say all but I'm no expert) states prohibit the concealed carry of firearms while consuming alcohol, or if your blood alcohol level is above some level. Legal or not, it's a stupid thing to do.

Eventually there will be some "floods of blood on the streets", but so far, they've been caused by those who were unlicensed to carry (and who probably could not get a license if they'd applied.)

Vermont has no prohibition against concealed carry without a permit (or so it's said on the internet!), and it's hardly the place you think of for such things happening.

I would venture to guess that, more than some other States, Vermonters know their neighbors.

2MeterTroll
06-29-2009, 08:32 PM
. But, hey, dying by having your body torn apart by a car is not nearly as bad as dying by a bullet. What a double standard.


having been shot and hit by a car. i'll take being shot thanks.
hurts less.

ishmael
06-29-2009, 08:41 PM
"Vermont has no prohibition against concealed carry without a permit (or so it's said on the internet!), and it's hardly the place you think of for such things happening."

I've never looked this up, but I used to live on the border with VT, and also had friends there who were hunters and such. The way I understand it OPEN carry is written into their Constitution.

UCanoe_2
06-29-2009, 09:34 PM
So, if Arizona will the the 41st state to allow concealed firearms in bars, doesn't that mean 40 state legislatures have already decided it is OK?

In Virginia, concealed handguns (Sect. 18.2-308, Code of Virginia) are not allowed in establishments licensed to serve alcohol under Sect. 4.1-100, Code of Virginia. I am sure this law is often violated unintentionally. Sometimes it is not obvious that a restaurant is licensed to serve alcohol until you walk in and see their liquor license posted on the wall behind the bar. Also, it is not clear to me what places other than obvious restaurants and bars are licensed under 4.1-100. For example, what about a theatre serving wine at intermission or a vineyard having a wine tasting?

This year bill similar to the Arizona bill passed the General Assembly and was vetoed by the Governor. In the legislature's veto override session the bill lost by only 3 votes.

Open carry of a handgun in a restaurant serving alcohol is legal in Virginia.

Concealed carry in restaurants is legal in West Virginia, which honors Virginia resident concealed handgun permits. So Virginians can carry concealed in W.Va., but not in their own state. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?

For more information, see the Virginia Citizens' Defense League.
http://www.vcdl.org/

BrianW
06-29-2009, 09:53 PM
It's funny that the Earp brothers used to throw cowboys in the Tombstone hoosegow for toting a six gun into the Birdcage Saloon. We're gonna have to learn that lesson again.


Frank Murray, owner of Seamus McCaffrey's Irish Pub & Restaurant in downtown Phoenix, said he opposes the law and will prohibit his customers from coming in armed.

"It's kind of like the Wild West days," he said.

The "wild west" analogy. That's been a losing argument since Florida started the 'shall issue' trend over 20 years ago.

I see it still is one of the favorites, despite the glaring inaccuracy.

Krunch
06-29-2009, 10:11 PM
"Vermont has no prohibition against concealed carry without a permit (or so it's said on the internet!), and it's hardly the place you think of for such things happening."

I've never looked this up, but I used to live on the border with VT, and also had friends there who were hunters and such. The way I understand it OPEN carry is written into their Constitution.

htom is correct. Vermont and Alaska allow concealed carry without any kind of permit or license.

http://www.nraila.org/images/rtcmaplg.jpg

ishmael
06-29-2009, 10:22 PM
"htom is correct. Vermont and Alaska allow concealed carry without any kind of permit or license."

Far be it from me to argue, but are you sure you aren't confusing right to carry with right to carry concealed?

Krunch
06-29-2009, 10:26 PM
"htom is correct. Vermont and Alaska allow concealed carry without any kind of permit or license."

Far be it from me to argue, but are you sure you aren't confusing right to carry with right to carry concealed?

Yes.

http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/VTSL.pdf

John of Phoenix
06-30-2009, 10:40 AM
The "wild west" analogy. That's been a losing argument since Florida started the 'shall issue' trend over 20 years ago.

I see it still is one of the favorites, despite the glaring inaccuracy.
Innacurate? The idea of gun totin' cowboys throwing back whiskey at the saloon is a Hollywood fabrication.


Tombstone Ordinance No. 9:
"To Provide against Carrying of Deadly Weapons" (effective April 19, 1881).

Section 1. "It is hereby declared to be unlawful for any person to carry deadly weapons, concealed or otherwise [except the same be carried openly in sight, and in the hand] within the limits of the City of Tombstone.

Section 2: This prohibition does not extend to persons immediately leaving or entering the city, who, with good faith, and within reasonable time are proceeding to deposit, or take from the place of deposit such deadly weapon.

Section 3: All fire-arms of every description, and bowie knives and dirks, are included within the prohibition of this ordinance."
The OK Corral was as much about illegal weapons as anything else.

ishmael
06-30-2009, 11:04 AM
I stand corrected, Krunch, Vermont does allow concealed carry as a matter of law, not special license.

Good for them! I don't think it really matters much if you carry a gun in a holster under your vest or in one on your hip. I've never carried either way. I take that back, I've been out hunting occasionally and target shooting. Never felt the need to pack all the time.

I did have a friend once who was in the jewelry business, moving expensive stuff and money around almost daily, and he packed. He learned how to use it, which should be the determining factor. Good training.

Vermont, the times I've spent there, was always a very peaceful place.

Memphis Mike
06-30-2009, 11:36 AM
I have not read the Arizona law, but if it's typical, you're allowed to carry but not to drink while doing so. The idea is that the designated driver is going to carry, while the others don't carry; and not just in bars, but anywhere with a liqueur license, like restaurants and theaters.

Tell that to the dead guy that got shot here in Memphis not long ago outside a restaurant by a drunk permit holder.

They were argueing over a parking place.

paladin
06-30-2009, 11:39 AM
Unless things have changed...I carried the Browning concealed in Alaska all the time I was there....and when I went out of town or flying anywhere I carried a Ruger Super redhawk under my parka....and a .444 in the plane......
In Okiehoma, carried openly, but general rules are not in Church or any government building or where alcohol is being served.

BrianW
06-30-2009, 12:27 PM
Tell that to the dead guy that got shot here in Memphis not long ago outside a restaurant by a drunk permit holder.

They were argueing over a parking place.


Handgun Permit Holder Kills Somebody, Police Say
By Jeff Woods in Law and Order


Ever since Tennessee enacted what was immediately derided as the "Wild West" handgun permit law, letting supposedly law-abiding citizens go armed just about everywhere, gun nuts and their lapdogs in the legislature have contended that their critics' fears were unfounded. Not one of the tens of thousands of people with handgun permits have ever committed a crime, they have argued. Most recently, Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey went on at great length in this vein, mocking the media for raising questions about the law. It's likely to be expanded this session to allow people to go strapped into saloons and state parks.

Well, proponents of tighter gun laws finally have their Exhibit A. In the Memphis suburb of Cordova, a guy in a Hummer got into an argument with a guy in a Yukon Denali outside an Italian restaurant. One giant SUV was parked too close to the other. So the guy in the Hummer went back to his car, came back with his gun and killed the other guy with a point-blank bullet to the chest, police say.

Ray Coleman, who has owned a state permit to carry a handgun since 2006, is charged with second-degree murder. "While maintaining his innocence," his lawyer says, "he's regretful and sorry that the man lost his life."

So he wasn't actually carrying at the time. He had to go get his gun.

Sad story though.

BrianW
06-30-2009, 12:30 PM
Innacurate? The idea of gun totin' cowboys throwing back whiskey at the saloon is a Hollywood fabrication.

The OK Corral was as much about illegal weapons as anything else.

See the quote about the Memphis shooting above. It also mentions the "Wild West Theory". It's not about the past, it's about today.

Even the one case above does not substantiate that theory.

John of Phoenix
06-30-2009, 01:09 PM
The "Wild West Theory" is a fallacy. They outlawed pistols, rifles and knives precisely because people couldn't handle them. Like the story above.

Pistol Packing Cowboys is a fallacy.

BrianW
06-30-2009, 01:20 PM
The "Wild West Theory" is a fallacy.

Okay, that was my point too. :)

ishmael
06-30-2009, 01:25 PM
"Tell that to the dead guy that got shot here in Memphis not long ago outside a restaurant by a drunk permit holder."

We'll never outlaw idiocy or hot-headedness. It can be very tragic, but it's just the human condition. To elaborate is no avail.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
06-30-2009, 01:34 PM
Permit?
Gangsta's don't need no stinkin permit!

paladin
06-30-2009, 02:53 PM
Relatively recent history......my great grandfather and then my grandfather were peace officers in Indian Territories.....and after retirement served as Deputy Sheriff in Oklahoma in the years just before and thru WWII and the Korean War. Granddad was too old for military service and the young guys were going off to war.....While serving as Sheriff in Webbers falls he had a deputy, relatively young guy named John Owens, who became a gunsmith in later years. After granddad passed away old John told me that granddad always brought the guys in, and after the first 4-5 years never had to fire his gun...when granddad went after them they gave up....a couple would escape later but they didn't want granddad to be on their trail. John told me that a couple fellers made the mistake of trying to ambush him, and he got them and beat the crap outta them with his old Colt, Granddad was about 5'6" and may have weighed in about 150.....
Growing up he said that when the passed all the laws regarding firearms back east (East of the Mississippi) that only the crooks had guns...west of the Mississippi if someone decided to rob anyone, his own neighbors would gun him down or stand around and watch him hang....He always commented while watching westerns on TV that there was more shooting and killing on tv in any one night than really happened outside in a year. He also got a few laughs over the mid 50's western show "Wyatt Earp" as in real life Earp was granddads size and he had met him on several occasions.

Memphis Mike
06-30-2009, 05:54 PM
So he wasn't actually carrying at the time. He had to go get his gun.

Sad story though.

You need to do your research and find out the details. The whole point is the guy had been drinking. Is this how a permit holder should act?

"
After shooting Robert 'Dutch' Schwerin Jr. in front of his three children, Coleman "fanned the gun in a circle so as to threaten all present" and made threatening remarks to Schwerin's son and a bystander who was offering him aid, said the Circuit Court lawsuit filed by attorney Gary Smith."

He shot and killed an unarmed man in front of his children.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/jun/22/suit-filed-cordova-parking-lot-shooting/

BrianW
06-30-2009, 06:20 PM
You need to do your research and find out the details. The whole point is the guy had been drinking. Is this how a permit holder should act?

I suspect lots of permit holders drink.

As far the the research... it appears he was not carrying when he was drinking, but rather left the gun in his truck.

In any case, I'm not trying to defend his actions. Sounds like a very bad guy to me. Hope he rots in jail.

paladin
06-30-2009, 06:26 PM
How many drunks have been shooting other folks in Alaska lately?
As everyone should know, if you are carrying so is the other guy, and his friends.......

ishmael
06-30-2009, 07:01 PM
I think everyone needs to be implanted with a chip. It will not only carry all your personal data, it will be interactive. So when you do something stupid like brandish a gun for no reason, or go to get behind the wheel with one too many drinks, it will shock you into unconsciousness. That way, we'll have obviated all the vagaries of life and everyone will be safe. Oh, and live forever.

Krunch
06-30-2009, 07:07 PM
I think we should just outlaw lawlessness.

And murder, rape, robbery and the rest.

We'd have it kicked, then, by golly!

Memphis Mike
06-30-2009, 07:27 PM
You know what I wish? I wish all of the NRA lobbyists and the Republicans that are pushing this idiotic legislation would all rear back on their own guns and stick their collective thumbs on the trigger and yank. Thrown in the irresponsible gun shop owners and those that put on the traveling gun shows and we got er licked.

ishmael
06-30-2009, 07:47 PM
"I wish all of the NRA lobbyists and the Republicans that are pushing this idiotic legislation"

Which legislation is that?

Memphis Mike
06-30-2009, 08:01 PM
"I wish all of the NRA lobbyists and the Republicans that are pushing this idiotic legislation"

Which legislation is that?

Did you even read the original post?

Krunch
06-30-2009, 08:11 PM
Please tell us why this legislation is such a bad idea, Mike.

Many states have had similar or equivalent laws for years without blood running in rivers in the streets.

On the other hand, a lot of innocent good people get robbed and murdered every year in restaurants that serve alcohol.

Please tell me how preventing licensed, law-abiding people from having firearms to defend themselves in such situations will do any good, or prevent any of the many murders that occur in liquor-serving restaurants every year.

ishmael
06-30-2009, 08:21 PM
Sure, I read the original post. It was a paranoia about the NRA. So?

2MeterTroll
06-30-2009, 08:23 PM
cause drunk and stupid are equivalents?

BrianW
06-30-2009, 08:27 PM
and stick their collective thumbs on the trigger and yank.

Remember to squeeze the trigger, letting it surprise you when the sear breaks and the firing pin drops. Yanking leads to poor marksmanship.

:)

BrianW
06-30-2009, 08:29 PM
Many states have had similar or equivalent laws for years without blood running in rivers in the streets.

Apparently 40 of them, or 80% of these United States. Hardly ground breaking legislation.

Just as the NRA pushes its agenda, so does the other side. Nothing new here folks... move along. ;)

Krunch
06-30-2009, 08:44 PM
Apparently 40 of them, or 80% of these United States. Hardly ground breaking legislation.

While I appreciate your support, to be fair, I'm talking about right-to-carry-concealed-firearms laws that allow permit holders to do so in establishments that serve alcohol.

It's not 40 states, but there are several.

And (gee, big surprise) it's no more a problem in the local bar and grill or the local family restaurant that serves alcohol than it is anywhere else.

Why?

Because law-abiding, peaceable people who apply for a permit, submit to the background check, pay for the training, and jump through every other hoop that the bureaucrats put up ... don't pose a threat to anybody, and never did and never will.

Whether it's CCW in a bar, in a car, on a boat, with a goat, in the house or chasing a mouse, good people don't threaten anyone, and the simple fact of having a gun doesn't make them into homicidal maniacs.

We've heard these predictions about "wild west shootouts in the streets over traffic improprieties" for 30 years now in the dozens of states that have liberalized their CCW laws, and the predictions haven't panned out anywhere.

Violent crime rates have fallen in the states that have liberalized concealed carry laws, and they have fallen faster than in non-CCW states and faster than in the U.S. as a whole.

BrianW
06-30-2009, 08:51 PM
While I appreciate your support, to be fair, I'm talking about right-to-carry-concealed-firearms laws that allow permit holders to do so in establishments that serve alcohol.

It's not 40 states, but there are several.

Just going with the info in the original post...


Arizona may become the 41st state to allow bar patrons to carry concealed weapons.

If it's inaccurate, I wouldn't be surprised.

pila
06-30-2009, 09:21 PM
So now, all the bar tenders in AZ will have to get the traditional sawed-off double barreled shot gun to keep behind the bar:D

Memphis Mike
06-30-2009, 09:30 PM
"While I appreciate your support, to be fair, I'm talking about right-to-carry-concealed-firearms laws that allow permit holders to do so in establishments that serve alcohol.

It's not 40 states, but there are several.

And TN is now one of them. The gov. vetoed the bill but the Republican majority overrided it.

The good news is bar and restaurant owners here have the right to refuse CCP holders. I'm hoping that good sense prevails.

ishmael
06-30-2009, 09:39 PM
There's a great scene, I think "Terminator I" where the Arnold character has already stripped a man in a bar of his clothing. He's getting ready to ride off on a Harley, and a quintessential bar keep comes out brandishing a double barreled shot gun. "'Sorry son, I can't let you take a man's wheels." Ahhrnold, immune, walks up to him and snatches the shotgun, put's it in a scabbard at the side of the Harley, and zooms off.

Cartoons.

Memphis Mike
06-30-2009, 10:09 PM
There's a great scene, I think "Terminator I" where the Arnold character has already stripped a man in a bar of his clothing. He's getting ready to ride off on a Harley, and a quintessential bar keep comes out brandishing a double barreled shot gun. "'Sorry son, I can't let you take a man's wheels." Ahhrnold, immune, walks up to him and snatches the shotgun, put's it in a scabbard at the side of the Harley, and zooms off.

Cartoons.

Well it's something you don't really need to be concerned with. Nor some of the other posters on this thread. Me? I'm quite concerned.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
06-30-2009, 10:21 PM
Makes ya wanna move back to West Virginia eh?
Crack heads shootin each other a few blocks away from where I live this week.
Five shootings in six days, two dead.

ishmael
06-30-2009, 10:38 PM
Mike,

I don't want to make light if you've got violence in the neighborhood. I'm sorry that's happening.

I've been lucky and have never had to deal with it.

Keep your powder dry.

Jack

Krunch
07-01-2009, 06:19 AM
Well it's something you don't really need to be concerned with. Nor some of the other posters on this thread. Me? I'm quite concerned.

I'd be more concerned about the bad guys who already carry guns into your bars and restaurants all the time ... than about the prospect of one or two good guys being armed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis

2MeterTroll
07-01-2009, 10:11 AM
Oddly the bad guys are probably safer to have guns at the bar. they know that shooting someone is serious business and frankly there are not that many bad guys around.

its the odd idiot that thinks there are criminals of every corner; most folks are opportunists. if it looks like there is little chance of getting nailed they might do a crime. on the other hand the places you find habitual criminals is behind the steering wheel, breaking speed, passing, parking, &c. laws.

so if you are looking for criminals the bar or diner is not the place to go.

Krunch
07-01-2009, 10:44 AM
Oddly the bad guys are probably safer to have guns at the bar. they know that shooting someone is serious business and frankly there are not that many bad guys around.

You can't be serious...

We have plenty of experience where only the bad guys are armed.

Trust me: It doesn't work out so great for the sheep.

By your reasoning, there should be rampant orgies of shooting by "idiots who think there are criminals of every corner" at NRA conventions. Yet...not a single shot. :eek:

2MeterTroll
07-01-2009, 11:02 AM
Krunch i would be a touch surprised if you had ever spent any time in any space where you had hardened criminals over and above the back ground count and that aint very high.

most of the shootings make the news are from you law abiding citizens. since thats where folks hear about shootings those are what you fear. your NRA babbling is just that; babbling. theres a tiny percent of NRA wanks and a whole bunch of stupid folks with hand guns. you seldom hear of some guy whipping out his 30-30 in a bar fight. me i look for the morons with a concealed carry permit and if i happen to be in the mood expose them to the rest of the patrons.

paladin
07-01-2009, 11:32 AM
Actually.....If I were in such an extreme environment that a weapon was a requirement to be on hand....it wouldn't normally be an automatic, or even a handgun. For serious work, except in a hard combat situation, a revolver is a much better weapon to use, and with speedloaders at hand instead of magazines......and even better is a short rifle, sometimes called a carbine by folks, something that handles a pistol round in a long barrel. For the boat I have/had a pair of carbines, chambered for a 9mm parabellum round....but the preference is still for my old 1892 Winchester in .357 magnum....use the .357 for deer etc...but load .38 specials for wabbits and other pests.

Krunch
07-01-2009, 11:51 AM
Krunch i would be a touch surprised if you had ever spent any time in any space where you had hardened criminals over and above the back ground count and that aint very high.

Wrong. I worked for 15 years in Washington, D.C. which, for several of those years, had one of the highest murder rates, per capita, or any city in the nation.

I also lived for a few years in Camden, N.J., which regularly leads the nation in its murder rate.

So I would venture to guess that I know a lot more about lawlessness, first hand, than you do.


most of the shootings make the news are from you law abiding citizens. since thats where folks hear about shootings those are what you fear. your NRA babbling is just that; babbling. theres a tiny percent of NRA wanks and a whole bunch of stupid folks with hand guns. you seldom hear of some guy whipping out his 30-30 in a bar fight. me i look for the morons with a concealed carry permit and if i happen to be in the mood expose them to the rest of the patrons.

I'm not going to bother refuting you point-by-point here since a) it's quite clear that you don't have the foggiest notion of WTF you're talking about, and b) I can tell from your tone that you don't want to know.

Suffice it to say this: The U.S. Department of Justice commissioned multiple studies on the defensive use of firearms by lawful people and concluded that firearms were used far more often to prevent crimes than to commit crimes. In the vast majority of cases, no shot was fired and no one bled -- that's why you didn't hear about it.

If you want to know more about it (and I know you don't, but others might), Google "Gary Kleck," "Point Blank" and "Lott and Mustard" for starters.

BTW, how old are you, 2MT? You write like you're about 14 years old.

2MeterTroll
07-01-2009, 01:09 PM
try again working and living in the burbs is not being in the same space as. but then your rabid support of every man packing heat in his vest is about on par.

folks can carry all they want in a holster on the hip. or they can walk round with a rifle in a sling. makes no never mind.

ya tell that to a drunk in a fight going the wrong way. if he's packing, he's pulling.

sorry mate like normal the concealed carry in a bar argument dont hold water in the face of real people.

as for the NRA its still a tiny fraction of gun owners and i dont expect that to change.
the law that is being discussed is joe,schmo with a concealed artificial spine add that to bottled courage and you got a recipe for stupidity just add a perceived threat.