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pcazeles
06-26-2009, 04:03 PM
I recently got my winches dechromed by a local plating shop and so far, it looks gorgeous. However, it seems it requires frequent polishing to stay nice.

I wouldn't mind to do it say once a month but now it seems necessary after 3 or 4 days (more often if it rains).

Is there a solution to keep the polishing needs frequency down ?

Can some other plating be applied to keep this nice golden color without the oxidation drawback ?

Can things like bronze mushroom vents be clear varnished ? what would be the drawbacks ?

Many thanks in advance.
Patrick.

mmd
06-26-2009, 04:11 PM
Clear laquer or epoxy. Downside is that if it gets scratched or chipped, oxidization will start in two or three days. Most folk tend to like the soft green of oxidized bronze. Besides, it seals the metal underneath.

I toured a mega-yacht named Leander that had 24k gold-plated bathroom fixtures in all of the bathrooms. I asked why. The captain told me it was a maintenance issue - the colour of the metal was desired, but bronze would discolour, requiring daily polishing. Clear-coating was out due to the reasons I mentioned above. So gold plating was decided upon because gold doesn't tarnish and maintenance only required wiping with a soft, damp cloth. So maybe you could have your winches gold-plated! <wink>

Timex
06-26-2009, 04:19 PM
Clear Powder Coat?
Make shure they get the stuff with U.V. blockers, so the coating doesn't yellow.

Never tried it on marine, or know of it being done.

Big in rod & bike use.

Tim

gert
06-26-2009, 04:35 PM
And what pray tell is wrong with that gorgeous green (brown?) patina of tarnished bronze?

Bob Cleek
06-26-2009, 07:07 PM
Somebody asks this question in here about once every couple of months. The answer is always the same.

You CAN plate bronze, as with chrome, but it wears off on items that get chaffed, like winch drums and starts to look crappy in time. Gold plating is softer than chrome and unsuitable for pieces that get any wear, not to mention its cost. Gold was used in past ages on things like cowl vents, and this is where the term "gold plater" came from in referring to a fancy finished yacht, but even in the "golden age," it was uncommon.

I am sure your winches look loads better without the chrome. Chrome's other drawback is that it reflects sunlight. Spend an hour at the helm on a heading which puts the sun's reflection off a chrome deck fitting right into your eyes and you'll soon realize shiney chrome isn't all it's cracked up to be.

You don't polish bronze at all. Ever. (Except and unless you are lucky enough to have a real bronze bell, rather than a brass one.) Proper marine bronze, as your winches, will develop a chocolate brown patina over time and this appears "proper" to the trained mariner's eye. (Brass is what turns green and stays green. Polished bronze may turn green, too, but will eventually go to deep brown if you just leave it alone and let it be bronze.)

You DO polish brass, which will be found on hand rails, lamps, instrument cases, bells and the like.

Coating bright metal on a boat with lacquer or anything else is a fool's errand. While a good coating will last maybe even for a few years, eventually, it will break down due to the natural hardening and crazing process and you will end up with a shiney piece with black speckles all over it. This will be impossible to polish, due to the coating. At that point, there is nothing for it but to sand all the coating off and buff out the resulting sanding scratches. I have had to do this on many items over the years and I've tried every solvent and stripper in the book, but with no success. The manufacturers want their stuff to stay shiney for as long as possible, so they use some darn good coatings... but once you see how much work it is to remove, you'll never put it back on again! Polishing uncoated brass will keep it looking good with little work. The nooks and crannies that aren't polished as much on a piece will give it a nice "worn, but well cared for" appearance and the "depth" that you want to have.

The "drug of choice" is Nev-R-Dull polishing wadding. None better. Ask the U.S. Navy, which can get pretty anal about polishing their brass.

Once you polish up your chrome-stripped bronze to "as new" condition, just leave it alone from then on out. It will look great.

Lew Barrett
06-26-2009, 08:28 PM
Agree with Cleek here.

hm0316
06-26-2009, 08:37 PM
Dear pcazales, I agree with Bob Cleek. It is generally best not to polish bronze.

There is an additional factor, however, that could mean that you will need to do some polishing of your winches. Some manufacturers of winches that are chromed use an alloy that contains a substantial amount of iron. This alloy is intended to be chromed, although the manufacturers will leave off the chrome if requested. When the chrome is removed, this alloy can show rusty spots and will not develope an even patina. If this is a problem with your winches, you will have to polish them at least enough to keep the rusty spots from showing. Bronze winches that are not intended to be chromed use a different alloy and will not have this problem.

hm0316

Wooden Boat Fittings
06-26-2009, 08:51 PM
.

You don't polish bronze at all. Ever.

I agree entirely.


Proper marine bronze, as your winches, will develop a chocolate brown patina over time and this appears "proper" to the trained mariner's eye.

To illustrate -- unpolished bronze fairlead, varnished brass strip, and untouched gold leaf, all together --

http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/boats/aileenlouisa/al-bow-s.jpg

Lew Barrett
06-27-2009, 12:18 AM
I enjoy the chocolate brown that Bob mentions as the hallmark of fine bronze fittings as much as I enjoy seeing highly polished brass. That deep brown, even patina says "quality" as much as any piece on the boat. I wonder if the offshore sourced bits that have been sold as bronze additions in the last several decades will ever attain that even, oiled look that fine old bronze takes on when it has weathered well. Perhaps enthusiasts value quality castings over them simply because they look better with the passage of time rather than worse.

Dan McCosh
06-27-2009, 09:10 AM
We polished up the bronze for a boat show a week ago. It lasted three days or so. Got more comments than anything else, however.

gert
06-27-2009, 09:43 AM
(Brass is what turns green and stays green. Polished bronze may turn green, too, but will eventually go to deep brown

Didn't know that difference.
See ya learn stuff all the time here.

Canoeyawl
06-27-2009, 10:09 AM
I keep the drum surface of the winches (that contacts the line) pretty nice. Not really polished but clean and shiney bright.
Otherwise your sheets and hands will do the cleaning/polising leaving them a dirty brown/green.

If this surface is left to oxidize the "old salts" will know that you never go sailing...

pcazeles
06-27-2009, 11:27 AM
Thank you very much all for your feedback.

Sorry Bob for making you repeating over the same thing. I originally figured this kind of question had already been asked but although I found some pretty interesting posts with the search engine regarding bronze stuff, I didn't find what I was looking for.

The reply regarding clear lacquer over metal confirmed what I was guessing: it's gonna be a pain when it will eventually have to be removed.

However, why is it that bronze should not be polished at all, ever ? is frequent polishing too abrasive ?

What happens when brass is left untouched as well ?

As hm0316 remarked, the winches seem to develop rusty spots.

Thank you again for your replies.
Patrick.

Bob Cleek
06-27-2009, 11:44 AM
No, it's just that you don't polish bronze because it won't stay polished long enough to make it worth the effort and it looks good unpolished. It's harder to polish than brass, too.

This guy is made out of bronze. For many decades, he's sat in the courtyard at the Palace of the Legion of Honor in San Francisco which stands on a bluff above the Golden Gate. This is about the foggiest, windyiest, saltiest environment arouind. In fact, it's no different than being on a boat.

http://sja11391.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/402px-the_thinker_auguste_rodin.jpg

This is what bronze looks like when you leave it to weather.

They don't polish him. He's not coated with lacquer. Just bare bronze in the marine environment. In fact, I expect if you showed up with a can of polish and tried to polish him, the museum guards would arrest you for vandalism!

Dan McCosh
06-27-2009, 12:03 PM
I think statuary patina is an applied coating, or treatment, rather than natural weathering. It can look natural, however.

hm0316
06-27-2009, 12:49 PM
dear pcazeles, your last post mentions that your winches are showing some rust spots. This means that you will need to do some polishing to keep them looking nice. There are numerous different alloys referred to as "bronze" and they will have different durability and oxidation properties. Most likely your winches were built after WWII and were intended to be chromed rather than be left bronzed. Modern production bronze winches are most often the manufacturers standard chrome winches with the chrome left off. The alloy such manufacturers use is quite strong but it does have enough iron in the alloy that it will show some rust in the form little spots of what appear to be rusty spots. Some manufaturers, such as Wilmex and Meissner use aluminium bronze alloys that are intended not to be chromed (although they sometimes are) and do not have this spotting issue. Your winches are fine and they will not necessarily, really "rust" out. It you want to eliminate the spots though you will have to do some polishing.

As to why you never polish bronze, it is because it takes some much work. On a traditional boat, it would be nearly impossible to keep it all polished.

Good luck. Hm0316

Jay Greer
06-27-2009, 01:34 PM
Manganese Bronze will show rust flecks on the surface as the metal corrodes . One test for manganese
is to suspend a small pencil magnet on a thread near the surface of the material. As the tread is moved closer to the surface of the metal, the magnet will show to be slightly attracted to the surface of manganese alloy bronze.

So far as polish is concerned, outside of gold plating, I have never found a way to prevent copper, brass and bronze from corroding. Clear coating will only last a short while. And then, it is a real pain to remove the coating in order to polish the metal. Years of experimenting has placed my faith in a super polish made by Wright; Wright's Copper and Wright's Brass Polish. I prefer the Copper Polish as it comes in paste form and is less sloppy to work with. I can attest to the fact that this stuff cuts through corrosion like no other polish I have ever tried.
Never Dull, though supplied in the handy cotton wadding form, is extemely labor intensive, compared to the ease of using Wright's.
http://www.uclean.com/catalog/productInfo/chemicals/polishes/wright_s_copper_polish.html
Jay

Timex
06-27-2009, 03:51 PM
Just some Polished Bronze items.
Click for larger view.

Green Gaints, Bronze Ball, his Wife got the other one!
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/th_arnaldo_pomodoro.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/?action=view&current=arnaldo_pomodoro.jpg)

Navy Mk V Gas Helmet. Just the fittings are Bronze.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/th_mark_v_polished3.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/?action=view&current=mark_v_polished3.jpg)

Bronze Miller 400 Dive Helmet
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/th_mill-pol.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/?action=view&current=mill-pol.jpg)

Bronze Cabin Ventilator
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/th_Mushroom20Vent.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/?action=view&current=Mushroom20Vent.jpg)

Bronze Port-Lite
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/th_Metabronze20004.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/?action=view&current=Metabronze20004.jpg)

And to put this to rest, ever after...
A Bronze Casket!
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/th_bronzecasket.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/?action=view&current=bronzecasket.jpg)

Tim

pcazeles
06-29-2009, 03:15 PM
Thank's again for your replies.

Here's a picture of my winches.

Patrick.

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/pcazeles/bronzewinches.jpg

hm0316
06-30-2009, 06:02 AM
Very nice looking. Are they Harkens? If so, you will be best off to keep them polished. hm0316

Rapelapente
06-30-2009, 06:15 AM
are you polishing them with the fur left on the cockpit bench ? :D

Looks like a nice boat ! any more photos?
Gerard

Lew Barrett
06-30-2009, 09:57 AM
Indeed she does. Beautiful!

Jay Greer
06-30-2009, 11:05 AM
Nize!
Jay

pcazeles
06-30-2009, 03:53 PM
Thank you for your comments.

The self-tailing winches are Barlow.

Some more pictures:

When I bought the boat and after the interior renovation
http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/pcazeles/interior.jpg

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/pcazeles/sailing.jpg

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/pcazeles/Villefranche.jpg

Rapelapente
06-30-2009, 04:00 PM
Magnifique !
Is it a Sergent design?

Candyfloss
06-30-2009, 04:21 PM
How do you ever get time to go sailing?

hm0316
06-30-2009, 06:33 PM
I am not that familiar with the bronze Barlows. hm0316

pcazeles
07-01-2009, 02:04 PM
Magnifique !
Is it a Sergent design?

I don't know who is the architect.

I just know the boat is from the C.N.Vader yard in Alkmaar, Holland and the only reference about this yard that I could find was in Stan Grayson's Restore your wooden boat where Steve Kaphaem from Michigan talks about his E.G. van de Stadt sloop but my boat has a long keel.

Patrick.

wjboon
07-01-2009, 03:50 PM
the architect was maybe dick koopmans sr.
c.n.vader was owner of the victoire wharf in alkmaar.
is the hull wood or fiberglass ?
http://www.victoire.nl/

donald branscom
07-01-2009, 04:51 PM
[QUOTE=Timex;2241206]Just some Polished Bronze items.
Click for larger view.

Green Gaints, Bronze Ball, his Wife got the other one!

Analdo Pomadoro sculpture.

pcazeles
07-04-2009, 03:37 PM
the architect was maybe dick koopmans sr.
c.n.vader was owner of the victoire wharf in alkmaar.
is the hull wood or fiberglass ?
http://www.victoire.nl/

Yes, you're most probably right because there is a plate which states "Victoria" and what appears to be a serial number 576.

The hull is mahogany.

Too bad I don't understand dutch. I'll try online translation.

Thank you for the link.

Patrick.

Candyfloss
07-04-2009, 11:19 PM
Superb rebuild on that interior. Thanks for the pics.

crabskiff
07-05-2009, 09:13 AM
I spent a lot of time hunting out old bronze fittings and hardware for my boat and spent even more time cleaning and polishing it to a bright shiny finish. It took one outing out in the salt water environs and I green hardware before the day was out. I ignored the advise I has seen here and now can only laugh at my stupidity. Go with the flow and let the patina develop.

Jay Greer
08-17-2009, 02:58 PM
Each time this, frequently, asked question comes up, I give mention of the same product that I have been using for many years to polish copper, brass and bronze on my boats. However, since it usually takes some effort to obtain it, I have yet to hear anyone comment upon the incredible ease and excellent results which it works. I have been through just about all of the products, that are most often recommended for cleaning brass work on a boat, Brasso, Bright Boy, Red Bear, Pep Boys Chrome Cleaner, Bennit's Brilliant Shine and the most innefective, over rated polish of them all, Never Dull Wadding Polish!
Never dull isn't any better than any of the other mentioned polishes and is messier and slower to use. Never Dull will produce a dirty film on varnish and raw teak that is a pain in the arse to remove! And the polish it produces is more labor intensive than most of the other polishes I have just mentioned. Never Dull is also a misnomer as the polish will not last any longer than that produced by any of the others.
So, you say, what is the best polish on the market? It is, a little known and rarely advertised product made by the Wright Company. They are the folks who have been making a product known as Wright's Silver Polish since before WWII. So, one should certainly think that they would know a bit about keeping metal shiny! They do! Their whiz bang brass polish is known as "Wright's Copper Polish". It is a paste that comes in a jar and is applied with a damp rag followed by wiping the item of with a dry soft cloth. They also make a product in a bottle that is known as Wright's Brass Polish. But, I have found it to be less effective and more sloppy to work with than the copper polishing paste. If you are seeking a really bright shine then the cleaning paste can be followed up by the use of either of two German Metal Polishes that come in a tube like tooth paste, "Schimichrompoli" or "Fleitz".
I will not give you the web address for Wright's Copper Polish as I think that if you are really interested in obtaining the very best product for your needs, you should do a bit of work to find it.
Trust me. It works!
Jay

Lew Barrett
08-17-2009, 06:24 PM
I am Jay's choir boy on this topic. Not only do I have a deep stash of Wright's, I "generously" offer my container to good friends when they need polish at boat shows. They see me wiping it on and wiping it off and are astounded at the ease with which Wright's goes about it's business. I won't blow Jay's cover in respect to where you might find this miracle tonic, but I will provide a hint: look in the most obvious places that carry cleaning products. Wrights is not a chandlery item.

I don't know about Behr varnish or Jeffries, but based on my experiences with Wright's one has to be very careful when arguing with Jay about "product." :D
This stuff is the real deal.

Bob Cleek
08-17-2009, 09:02 PM
Okay, okay... I've used Neverdull out of habit and because it worked. I'll find some Wright's Copper Polish and become a convert. LOL

See... I DID look it up!

http://www.hardwarestore.com/media/product/145227_front200.jpg

Lew Barrett
08-17-2009, 09:53 PM
You're gonna love it, and you'll wonder where it's been all your life!

Ketch4
08-18-2009, 11:48 AM
Wow , I can't believe all the postings about polishing metals! This is great! I thought I was the only "fool" to try keeping my brass and bronze somewhat polished. I actually do have it easier because I'm located on Lake Ontario (fresh water), but the rain and Lake spray do tarnish it badly. The goal for me is to polish well for shows and events only, with periodic polishings every week or so. In that way, it is not that difficult to do. It takes about 1/2 hour to do a quick light polish, and maybe double that for a show finish. There is nothing wrong with polishing bronze, it is simply a matter of labor. To me it has a very beautiful color, not like copper or brass....something in between. My winches are also bronze, and they look fantastic, I get comments every day. I have made covers for some larger items like the cowl vents and winches, that does help, and may prevent theft.

starbacca
08-24-2009, 05:53 PM
According to Giffy Hull, wiping the polished bronze or brass with Thompson's waterseal is supposed to prolong the shine. I will let you know because I just spent about three hours per winch bringing them back to a shine and they began to tarnish before my eyes. The bronze winches look great when all shined up but keeping that way takes daily polishing. You need a kid on board to do this stuff.

donald branscom
08-24-2009, 06:13 PM
To keep it from turning green use beeswax in toluol solution.

From :The Artist Handbook by Ralph Mayer

donald branscom
08-24-2009, 06:22 PM
No, it's just that you don't polish bronze because it won't stay polished long enough to make it worth the effort and it looks good unpolished. It's harder to polish than brass, too.

This guy is made out of bronze. For many decades, he's sat in the courtyard at the Palace of the Legion of Honor in San Francisco which stands on a bluff above the Golden Gate. This is about the foggiest, windyiest, saltiest environment arouind. In fact, it's no different than being on a boat.

http://sja11391.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/402px-the_thinker_auguste_rodin.jpg

This is what bronze looks like when you leave it to weather.


They don't polish him. He's not coated with lacquer. Just bare bronze in the marine environment. In fact, I expect if you showed up with a can of polish and tried to polish him, the museum guards would arrest you for vandalism!

Sculptors use sculptors wax over the metal which melts at about 1000║ F
I know I have a Masters degree in sculpture. There are other long lasting patinas as well. But all sculptures require some care.
The worst vandalism and the hardest to deal with is _______ sorry if I wrote it someone will use it.

ByronB
08-24-2009, 06:26 PM
You could try a titanium nitride coating. It's used on high end motorcycle fork sliders. Don't know about the cost.
Here's a link to one supplier.
http://www.brycoat.com/pvd-tin.html

C. Ross
08-24-2009, 08:58 PM
I am Jay's choir boy on this topic.

Can I join the chorus? I'm a big fan of Wright's copper polish and brass polish after reading about it from Jay and Lew.

Psst...I get mine at Lund's grocery store...

Lew Barrett
08-24-2009, 09:40 PM
Pleasure to have you, Cris. Tenor or basso?

C. Ross
08-24-2009, 09:53 PM
Tenor if you please.

I have bronze stanchions aft that are brown and unpolished and look nice with buff weather curtains. They'd look odd polished (and a pain to maintain).

But I'm a sucker for polishing the bronze and brass portholes and bronze stem band. The chrome can fend for itself. I also use Wright's on the stainless steel surfaces in the galley with nice results.

JimConlin
08-24-2009, 10:24 PM
I hate polishing bronze enough that I had my Wilcox 'Winner' head chromed.

snow(Alan H)
09-19-2009, 12:09 AM
I am Jay's choir boy on this topic. Not only do I have a deep stash of Wright's, I "generously" offer my container to good friends when they need polish at boat shows. They see me wiping it on and wiping it off and are astounded at the ease with which Wright's goes about it's business. I won't blow Jay's cover in respect to where you might find this miracle tonic, but I will provide a hint: look in the most obvious places that carry cleaning products. Wrights is not a chandlery item.

I don't know about Behr varnish or Jeffries, but based on my experiences with Wright's one has to be very careful when arguing with Jay about "product." :D
This stuff is the real deal.

This stuff truly is amazing - based on the advice from Jay & Lew I asked my sister-in-law who lives in Hawaii to send me some (its not available in NZ or Aust) - parcel arrived today - 4 pots & YES IT DOES WORK. As some said b4 "why did I not know about this b4". I hope there are no other wonder products out there that you forumites are keeping quiet about???

http://i408.photobucket.com/albums/pp165/Alanh22/IMG_0874.jpg

bruce w
09-19-2009, 12:54 PM
polished, brass ,bronze,and copper looks well on a steam boat and patinated looks well on a sail boat ,one looks hard work and the other looks restfull.

Robert L.
09-19-2009, 02:09 PM
Mostly, because I am lazy I wouldn’t polish either. Unless as mentioned by “bruce w” in post #49 it is a steam boat, then of course everything needs to gleam.

In my callow youth when I hung around the marina on weekends I quickly learned the life cycle of polished brass. A person-of-wealth would buy a really-nice-boat. Every piece of brass except the clock and compass would be painted white. This of course was unacceptable! Good money was paid for this boat the brass must be seen. Said wealthy person would hire the aforementioned callow youth to remove all of the paint and polish up that brass. Which of course would soon tarnish resulting in rally ugly green gunk getting on summer dress of wife/daughter of person-of-wealth. After a couple of rounds of re-polishing the brass a proclamation would be made “we shall put varathane on all of the brass”. Callow youth would point out that (a) it would look tacky and not present the “image” that comes from the soft glow of real polished brass and (b) when it gets scratched or worn the oxidation will still occur but now be even harder to keep looking nice. Then youth would clean and degrease everything and cover it with varathane, which of course made all that nice brass look like cheap plastic. Eventually when person-of-wealth got tired of very expensive boat looking like it was outfitted with cheap scratched shower curtain rods callow youth would clean and degrease everything and paint it white again, unless of course person-of-wealth was willing to kick out some real cash and have the youth cover everything possible with fancy decorative rope work. Callow youth of course encourage this and pointed out many examples of his fine work on other boats. Eventually after a couple of seasons person-of-wealth would realize that due to really-nice-boat he was no longer a person-of-wealth and boat would be sold. New owner seeing that all of the brass was painted white would decide that this was unacceptable . . .

I am guessing that this scenario has played itself out forever in every yacht basin in the world.


Donald Branscom post #42

“Sculptors use sculptors wax over the metal which melts at about 1000║ F
I know I have a Masters degree in sculpture.”

Donald, no Masters degree here, but I have done some sculpture and a lot of jewelry work. Where do you get wax that melts at 1000║ F? And how do you apply it without damaging the finer details of your work?

dlongworth
10-09-2009, 11:40 PM
Application of Tung oil can also prolong the shine on brass. My mother used to use it on her door knockers. It worked..

Jay Greer
10-10-2009, 10:00 AM
Adding any kind of coating to polished brass or bronze makes repolishing, at a later date, a bitch. One must first remove the coating and then the corrosion that has built up under it. Brass will even discolor under clear powder coating.
And that, my friends, is really a bitch to remove!
Jay

pcazeles
11-21-2009, 03:43 PM
Follow-up:
For things that don't get too much wear (cowl vents, fairleads, cleats, window frames, navigation lights, stanchion socket, ...), I finally tried gold-plating (Spa Plating at
http://www.goldn.co.uk/about_us.htm) and after a couple of months, I can say so far so good.

It also has the advantage that all the plated items now have the same golden color and the Spa Plating kit also allows to dechrome, so I don't go to the local plating shop anymore.

For the winches, after applying a fine layer of oil, I wrap them in kitchen cellophane film and my wife knitted a cover.

Anyway, if over time I find out it's too much trouble, I'll let the bronze patina develop.

Thank you again for all the advices.
Patrick.

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/pcazeles/boat3.jpg


http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/pcazeles/boat2.jpg
http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/pcazeles/boat1.jpg

Rapelapente
11-22-2009, 07:04 AM
Whaoo ! CÓ c'est de la finition ! :eek:
Dans quel port est ton bateau que je vienne y jeter un coup d'oeil la prochaine fois que je passe vers chez toi ?

Penokee
11-22-2009, 12:54 PM
Winch cozies! :) And, wow, very tidy boat! That original interior: Stripes much!?!

Say, I have a question on something that was mentioned early on in this thread. It was said that bronze turns brown, and only brass turns green.

I've got some husky bronze fittings that do have the greenish patina on them, but I'm nearly sure they are bronze (early 1960s beefy cleats, Wilcox Crittenden deck fittings and seaocks, etc.)

I had always thought that bronze tended to turn more brown in freshwater environments, and more green in saltwater environments.

So this moved me to ask about it.

Pen

KAIROS
11-22-2009, 03:37 PM
Here it is at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Wrights-Copper-Cream-Polish-8-oz/dp/B000KKMID2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1258922079&sr=8-1

John P Lebens
11-29-2009, 12:46 PM
PCAZELES - What kind of varnish are you using on that fine vessel with gold plated bronze?

John P Lebens
12-02-2009, 08:04 AM
Here is some freshly polished bronze from our vessel Suellen. The three part piece is a magnificant bronze nose on the bow.

http://www.yachtflyers.com/forum_images/Unknown.jpeg

We had it done at a place in Portland called "Metal Polishing by Timothy, Inc." They have a big operation but were happy to do these pieces. I also had some door edges and window surrounds polished, but not in the photo. Tim recommended I use "Simichrome" polish. A sample packet is in the photo. I plan to compare the Simichrome with Wright's Copper Cream as I continue this project.

I do not plan to coat these pieces with anything and they will gradually fade to a less brilliant color. I wanted to start fresh with them because they are visually prominent on the vessel. They originally showed the scars of many years of polishing attempts and sloppy varnishing. Even the photos don't do these pieces justice. They look like uniform, shiny gold.

floatingkiwi
12-02-2009, 09:53 AM
http://sja11391.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/402px-the_thinker_auguste_rodin.jpg
Say, this is " The thinker", or at least a replica of it, My favourite sculpture since I was a lad, by Rodin, I believe. The way this guy sits is just fascinating to me for some reason.

John P Lebens
12-06-2009, 02:03 PM
Preliminary test results:*

The Wrights Copper Polish seems to actually melt away oxidization on brass and bronze. Follow the unusual instructions involving a hot water rinse and wash and clean-up with a dry rag. It is super effective stuff. it brings out a reasonable shine very quickly. BUT, it does not seem to bring the surface to a high gloss.

The Simichrome requires rubbing to clear oxidization and it is much slower to work through heavily oxidized surfaces than the Wrights. HOWEVER, I think because the Simichrone contains abrasives, it is more capable than Wrights of creating a brilliant shine. I have heard you should not use Simichome on plated materials, because it does remove a bit of surface metal.

Pending further research,* I think a good plan is to first use Wrights for basic cleaning of oxidization and creating a clean and satin shiny surface.

Then apply the Simichrome and rub a little to bring up the bright, glossy aspects of the metal.

*"research" included a very quick application of Wrights to a brass John Hastie wheel that has been exposed the the outdoor elements for at least a year. The Wright's brought up the brass shine within seconds of application. Most of the work was in applying and removing the polish. The Simichrome did almost nothing to the original oxidization compared with the Wrights. Seeing little result, I quickly gave up on the Simichrome. This morning I tried the Simichrome again on the already Wright polished surface and was impressed with the result. It required some rubbing, but brought the shine up to a much higher gloss. A second application of the Wrights - with the requisite rubbing, resulted in a satin gloss - not nearly as brilliant as the Simichrome.

Conclusions:

Wrights followed by Simichrome = brilliant shine
Simichome only = too much work
Wrights only = satin shine

KAIROS
12-06-2009, 07:12 PM
Nice summary John, thanks.

pcazeles
12-09-2009, 01:32 PM
PCAZELES - What kind of varnish are you using on that fine vessel with gold plated bronze?

I use Schooner from Interlux (Rebecca Wittman's brightwork companion) on the hull.

For almost the complete brightwork, I went to bare wood and I used Benar from Jotun. It's an alkyd oil which takes time to dry but after few weeks under the sun, no one could tell whether it's varnish or alkyd oil, it's really glossy (some areas are mixed). It seems to hold better under the sun than varnish, doesn't require so many layers (4 or 5 in my case instead of 12) and mostly, is much easier to repair.

The first year I used for my mast, I liked it and went for it for the brightwork this year.

Patrick.

donald branscom
12-09-2009, 09:09 PM
To keep it from turning green use beeswax in toluol solution.

From :The Artist Handbook by Ralph Mayer

There is NO polish that will last very long.
Buy or borrow this book from the library .

floatingkiwi
12-27-2009, 05:55 AM
I am afraid to begin any polishing of any bits for fear of never finding an end to it.


http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc31b3127ccef8809efb4ebe00000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a



http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc31b3127ccef881e17fafe100000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

http://im1.shutterfly.com/proctaserv/47b9cc31b3127ccef880c3070ef400000037100AZtGbhu3cs2 QPbz4a

Lew Barrett
12-27-2009, 02:03 PM
Right John, that's how it is. Wrights is what I'd call a stripper, not a true polish. But stripped is usually good enough for me, since there is only one thing more thankless than endless brightwork repair, and that's bronze polishing.

By the way, Simichrome's been around seemingly forever; I used to use it on my motorcycles back in the 60s. Flitz works about the same as Simichrome, as do most of the "polishes." But nothing strips heavy tarnish and verdigris from brass, copper, bronze, chrome or even silverware, as fast as Wrights does. There is simply no substitute. It must be rinsed off thoroughly though...and I do mean thoroughly. Without serious rinsing, the stripped pieces turn streaky and ugly in the first rain or mist.

Another deep bow in the direction of Pt. Townsend (and Jay Greer) for the (truly selfless) promotion of this miracle elixer!

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-27-2009, 04:40 PM
I polish my stuff, but I remove it, and use a power buffer with compound. I am pretty good at polishing stuff now, even basic castings, but it takes a lot of different bobs, compounds, wheels and tools to do a complete job. I still use Solvol Autosol, which I find works well on almost everything. but.... I am in freshwater... so it makes a huge difference.

Terry Haines
12-27-2009, 04:53 PM
Old trick to remove the grease left behind by the polish is to wipe over with a talc-filled cloth before lacquering. I tried baby powder, that works too and the perfume goes away after a while ...

bertho
12-28-2009, 04:28 AM
some time ago, i meet a crew on a classic yacht who tell me one day he use W40 spray on polished bronze to keep them shiny ?? i never try myself?? perhaps working? :)
cheer's
bertho

Tyler569
02-08-2019, 05:32 PM
Hello, I know I am extremely late to help you, but for anyone else who may be reading here is what I did. I went and purchased a drill, a hookit pad, and sand paper pads ranging from 220, 400, 800, 1500, 3000, 5000 grit sand paper. Then I polished with Gord's Aluminum polish. Really made my bronze shine. I actually found out about this technique from this video. Best of luck on your Bronze polishing, and I hope you have a wonderful day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADotoo_sWJA

Jay Greer
02-08-2019, 07:04 PM
Perhaps some of you might remember Bennet's Brilliant Shine metal polish. It came in a keen looking pint can that was red with black Victorian Style copy imprinted on it along with a picture of the inventor of the polish in a four in hand tie and a handle bar mustache. The can itself was a work of Victorian art and was, in itself, worth the price of the product which, was capable of putting a blazingly bright polish on a variety of metals. The most impressive results were when it was used on brass or bronze! Mind you, this polish was not capable of removing heavy corrosion. But, if the binnacle or bell needed a quick shine after the previous day's sail and after the morning wash down and deck scrubbing, Bennet's was the polish to use. Sadly, the product and the nostalgic can it came in are things of the past but, I know the formula! So, if you want the best polish to restore a shine, that is only a day or three, down in the brillance scale here is the secret formula to the best bright shine short of using red rouge and a buffing wheel!

This polish was made of two simple components, Diatomaceous Earth and Naptha. Simply mix the two by first taking a half cup, or less, of diatomaceous earth and adding naptha to it while stiring the mix until it is the constancy of light cream. The amount of creaminess is a matter of choice for the user. Using a rag made of muslin, flannel or T shirt material, add a bit of polish to the rag and rub till the shine comes up. Because you are using naptha the liquid will evaporate fast and leave the powder on the surface to then be wiped off with a clean rag. Of course naptha is now difficult to find but it is actually used for lighter fluid so, if it is hard to find Naptha, use lighter fluid. Wear gloves and use the polish outside and away from any flames. Store the polish in a screw top can for the next time it is needed. A pint works well as it is easy to shake before using this amazing, blazing shine producer!
Jay

Canoeyawl
02-08-2019, 07:47 PM
Coleman Camp Fuel is "Naptha"... You can safely use it as a solvent on most finishes.

MN Dave
02-09-2019, 12:20 AM
OK guys, we prefer to fuel boats with diesel because gasoline tends to go whump in the night. Same for Coleman fuel, not so much with paint thinner. Then there is So Cal, and the SCAQMD, where paint thinner and naphtha are only a fond memory. In the spirit of taking things out of context, "SCAQMD requires residents to not burn wood in their fireplaces (http://www.aqmd.gov/home/programs/community/community-detail?title=check-before-you-burn)":D r<r<:mad: Coleman fuel, white gas, is the lighter boiling fraction of VM&P naphtha. It would be a lot safer to use another solvent that doesn't evaporate as fast. If you live on the left coast, your shadowy government overseers have taken away your freedom to use the stuff you need, so you need to do an end run around the rules and regulations. Thorne, do yo like my tin foil hat?

You left coasters can still buy lamp oil, (https://www.amazon.com/Lamplight-Ultra-pure-Lamp-32-Ounce-Blue/dp/B002QVXUNK) which is pretty much the same as odorless mineral spirits. It won't dry up as fast, stink as much or blow up, but still is a good cleaning solvent. Takes label gum off a treat. D-Limonene is also a good substitute for turpentine and naphtha here. Trust me, this is easier to read than anything I write: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/a_primer_on_solvents/

Diatomaceous (Fullers EDIT: NOT Fullers) earth is available in the garden center for killing slugs. If you are a slug, this is like eating broken glass. Actually, it is broken glass, but natural broken glass skeletons. Buy the cheap stuff. Miracle grow apparently puts fertilizer in theirs, which is not good for cleaning.

Diatomaceous earth looks like this up close:
https://i1.wp.com/www.filterballs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/diatomaceous-earth-001.gif?fit=207%2C172

Garret
02-09-2019, 05:21 AM
Diatomaceous earth is interesting stuff. It's also used for filtration - swimming pools & maple syrup to name 2 examples.

If wanting pure DE, buying filtration grade (OK - DE sold for filtration purposes) might make sense.

Jay Greer
02-10-2019, 02:18 PM
The reason for using Naptha for the replication of Bennet's Brilliant Shine polish is two fold. First, it is what was used for the vehicle in the original polish. Second, it is also the solvent which was used, until a few years ago, as commercial dry cleaning fluid. Naptha is an extremely
efficient grease solvent! And, it evaporates extreamly fast. The diatomaceous earth is indeed the skeletons of tiny sea creatures known as Diatoms. The powder is a fine abrasive and also a very efficient grease and dirt absorbent. After its use it leaves a brilliant, grease and dirt free surface on all manner of metals. If one is concerned with the use of Naptha and alternative vehicle would be CMT gum and resin remover. But, it is expensive and does not evaporate fast.
Jay

MN Dave
02-10-2019, 05:16 PM
My point was that there are suitable alternatives to naphtha legally and readily available in CA. The ones I mentioned are slower to dry, hence safer in terms of flammability, but perhaps too slow. Never having used Bennett's I don't know if the evaporation rate is convenient, too slow or too fast. Since it is a simple mixture of a decent cleaning solvent and easily obtainable abrasive, anyone can make a good substitute once they know what to expect of the ingredients, and can adjust the drying time if so desired. Since I wouldn't tend to use a polish as a degreaaser, I wouldn't be too concerned about the solvent strength as long as it dried without a difficult to remove residue.

Diatomaceous earth is a very good fine polishing material, although for really sensitive applications, there are abrasives with a more uniform particle size distribution.

The solvents that I mentioned do dry cleanly and are reasonable alternatives to naphtha when preparing a replacement for Bennet's polish. They are also available in California (https://www.acehardware.com/departments/home-and-decor/home-decor/lamp-oil-and-torch-fuel/6072185). While you may have to order limonene, lamp oil is easy to find locally. Odorless lamp oil is slower drying than Naphtha and the lack of smelly compounds make it a slightly weaker solvent. D-limonene (https://shop.skinboats.com/Cirtrus-Solvent-100-pure-organic-D-L100.htm) is a stronger solvent and is chemically very similar to turpentine. Both are slower to evaporate than Nahtha. The CMT cleaner -- was that CMT 2050 (http://www.thewoodnerd.com/reviews/bladeCleaners.html)? There are at least two types of Naphtha, light (https://www.collectioncare.org/MSDS/naphthamsds.pdf) and heavy. Heavy is less common, and pretty much same as kerosene.

Speed Evaporation Rate (Butyl Acetate = 1.0) Examples

Fast > 3.0
Light Naphtha(?) (https://p11.secure.hostingprod.com/@site.skygeek.com/ssl/MSDS/naphtha-type-2-1-gallon.pdf) = 3.2
Methyl Ethyl Ketone = 3.8
Acetone = 5.6
Hexane = 8.3.

Medium 0.8 to 3.0
VM&P Naphtha = 1.2 (http://www.shell.com/business-customers/chemicals/our-products/solvents-hydrocarbon/special-boiling-point-solvents/_jcr_content/par/tabbedcontent/tab_39073442/textimage.stream/1461063016687/7bbf14ef117bb35809f517c7a6cd8ee91bc1f14973150087d5 b190dfe9765391/vm-p-naphtha-ht-q6002.pdf)
95% Ethyl Alcohol = 1.4
Isopropyl alcohol = 1.5

Slow < 0.8
Xylene = 0.6
Isobutyl Alcohol = 0.6
Water = 0.3
Heavy Naphtha= 0.11 (http://www.freepoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Heavy-Naphtha.pdf)
Mineral Spirits = 0.1
D-Limonene = 0.05

Breakaway
02-10-2019, 06:24 PM
Diatomaceous earth is interesting stuff. It's also used for filtration - swimming pools & maple syrup to name 2 examples.

And in insect control. Mix diatomaceous earth with confectionary sugar fifty fifty. Place where you see ant ( for example) activity. They come, eat, and bring it back to the nest where the DE tears up their exoskeletons. I cleared a caprenter ant colony from one of my holly trees last summer using that technique ( Taught to me by an exterminator buddy)

Also, if you spread it in a band around decks, patios and walkways it will kill and deter slugs and snails. They don't like to slide over or through it.


Kevin

Jay Greer
02-11-2019, 02:17 PM
I think we all try to share that which has been successful for us in the past. Experimenting with a proven product sometimes comes out better than the original and sometimes worse.
Jay

MN Dave
02-11-2019, 03:46 PM
I think we all try to share that which has been successful for us in the past. Experimenting with a proven product sometimes comes out better than the original and sometimes worse.
JayYes, but Bennet's is no longer available. You can't get Naphtha in CA, so it isn't possible for a lot of people to make an exact copy.

Fortunately, the more important ingredient is diatomaceous earth and the solvent can be substituted with a variety of things. Naphtha is good for degreasing and as you said, the diatomaceous earth absorbs oils, so Bennet's not only dissolved the oil, but might have retained it in the dry powder when it dried up. DE seems to be something of a panacea: ttps://www.diatomaceousearth.com/blogs/learning-center . DE can be mixed with any number of liquids or even used dry on a cotton ball for polishing silver.


TL;DR (Too Long; Didn't Read)
Fuller's earth is clay (usually montmorillonite) while diatomaceous earth is the accumulated microscopic amorphous silica skeletons of microscopic and near-microscopic aquatic photosynthetic algae called diatoms.

Uhm, guilty as charged...

There is some confusion between fullers earth and diatomaceous earth which are different chemically. Over the years I was always lead to believe that they are two names for the same thing. Both materials have many of the same uses (https://sciencing.com/differences-fullers-earth-diatomaceous-earth-8432515.html), including polishing. They are even found in mixed deposits in the northern end of the FL-GA (https://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/0828/report.pdf) fullers earth deposit. Both seem to act something like activated charcoal, but FE is more effective there.

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/degen.html
http://www.jaxonfiltration.com/Clays-Sorbents-Materials.html

Bob Cleek
02-11-2019, 04:23 PM
Thanks to Jay's tip, I went to Wright's Copper Cream and never looked back. I still take pieces to a buffing wheel when they are really gross, but keeping brass bright is not all that difficult if it's regularly polished. Like varnish, routine maintenance is the ticket. Otherwise, it takes a lot of elbow grease to get back to that pristine blazing shine.

Bob Cleek
02-11-2019, 04:24 PM
Thanks to Jay's tip, I went to Wright's Copper Cream and never looked back. I still take pieces to a buffing wheel when they are really gross, but keeping brass bright is not all that difficult if it's regularly polished. Like varnish, routine maintenance is the ticket. Otherwise, it takes a lot of elbow grease to get back to that pristine blazing shine.

Which reminds me, I've got to get to my brass cased ship's clock on the bathroom wall. I just can't seem to convince "the girls" that they don't need to spend so much time in the shower that the whole bathroom turns into a steam bath! :D