opened a can (or ship) of worms

[iridescence]

This is the tale of the good, the bad, and the really ugly. It could also be titled "Silly people don't know what a chainsaw is for".

I knew she was unique when I saw her and I will keep my promise to her that she will see the world... but dang this lady has some baggage.

The good is that she was well designed by Al Mason to be a world traveler. The bad is that she was never completed and never had a competent person caring for her for most of her life. The ugly is that if you leave an already neglected boat in brackish waters surely nothing good will come. The really ugly is in the attached photos.

Back to the good. We would not have taken on this project if we didn't expect some problems. I guess it's like finding your dream retirement cabin has termites. The damage is pretty extensive so we are still weighing our options. She's a wooden boat and I will only modify that as a last resort. Anyone had any experience with this kind of thing and what method did you use?

If nothing else the photos are kind of interesting in a sort of sick, twisted, sadistic sort of way.
Cheers, Kerryhttp://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu17/Al-Mason_Cogge_Iridescence/100_1047.jpghttp://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu17/Al-Mason_Cogge_Iridescence/100_1048.jpghttp://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu17/Al-Mason_Cogge_Iridescence/100_1056.jpghttp://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu17/Al-Mason_Cogge_Iridescence/100_1061.jpghttp://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu17/Al-Mason_Cogge_Iridescence/100_1054.jpghttp://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu17/Al-Mason_Cogge_Iridescence/100_1050.jpg

[rbgarr]

I knew she was unique when I saw her and I will keep my promise to her that she will see the world... it's like finding your dream retirement cabin has termites.

Sorry for your loss and shock but unless you have nearly unlimited funds, skills and time, and really intend to sail long distances, then save or sell any hardware, and get another boat. The whole boat, even above the waterline, may likely be swiss cheese covered by a thin layer of paint.

The boat is not unique, nor does it understand the notion of promises, so don't burden yourself with that problem.

Finally, if termites also set fire to your dream cabin, burned you and yours inside and then was swallowed into the earth the comparison would be more accurate.

[marcin]

Lovely Cirripedia...

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I cautiously differ with rbgarr: I doubt if the worms will have penetrated the topsides - they need salt or brackish water to breathe.

They have a habit of coming up to within a fraction of an inch of the inside of a plank and then turning parallel to it and never crossing it - presumably they are sensitive to the slightly lower moisture level.

A question to consider is - have they crossed the glue line in the laminated centreline structure?

[RFNK]

Yep, surely at this point the best approach would be to take lots of photos and some measurements and then start hacking away to see how extensive the damage really is? Even if you need to replace most of the planking below the waterline and even the keel, stem etc., you could still end up with a very fine boat at relatively low cost (assuming it was a fine boat of course - how about posting a better picture of the whole thing?). The deck probably needs replacing simply because the boat's obviously been very neglected - not from worms but from rot if the paint/sheathing etc. has failed long ago.

I'm always amazed at how many people on this forum recommend new builds over restoration as a cheaper option, especially when we're primarily talking do-it-yourself. To build a new version of this boat, even if you did it yourself, would cost a bundle. Rick

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

How well set up are you to do a major rebuild? Can you get her somewhere cheap for the 3-4 years it will take?

[RFNK]

Please tell me that this Kerry is not our other Kerry? Kerry? Rick

[seo]

I have surveyed projects not too unlike that in the past. Lovely old boat, lots of history, damaged keel, rotted gripe, worm-eaten sternpost and rotted horn timber.
The approach that I advocated to the potential buyer was that he try to visualize the boat, not as she was going to be, gloriously restored and the envy of all, and not the way she was, battered but floating. Instead, visualize her with all the parts that need to be replaced gone, and all the parts that need to be taken out to get at the bad parts. Figure on tearing out the interior back to the bulkheads...
What do you have left?
Then I'd suggest that you price out the lumber and fastenings, marine plywood.
Estimate a cost for where the boat is going to sit, and what's going to cover her.
Add up all those dollar numbers, add the cost of buying the hulk, and look to see what that money will buy you in a functioning used boat.
Try to estimate the time involved. I do that by writing out a job list, and assigning a number of hours to each job. The cynical rule of thumb is to double your final number of hours, and it's not too far off, unless you've done job bidding before.
Then figure out where the hours and money are coming from out of your life. If you come up with a cost estimate of $85,000, and a time budget of 5,000 hourse, do you have that much time and money?
And if you have that much time and money, why not take half the money and buy a nice 35' boat, ready to go, with the other half reserved for operating costs. Then take the 5,000 hours and go sailing.
I can understand someone deciding that they had always dreamed of building a hull out of a pile of lumber, and so they end up spending their spare time out in a shed in the back yard, building a boat. Twice now I've been involved in appraising such a boat, 3/4 finished in a shed out back, because the owner/builder had died. Was his time well spent? Dunno. If his real dream was to sail the seven seas, probably not. If his love was building something big and remarkable with his own hands, maybe the fact that it was unfinished was no big deal in the great scheme of things.Having been involved in several major rip-apart jobs, I don't really see the pleasure in it. New building, yeah, okay. But that's me, not you.

[outofthenorm]

Wow. Baggage indeed. This kind of discovery is hard, but the only antidote is knowledge - ie: how bad is it? The only way to find that out is to start tearing into her, and as said above, even that takes space, time and cash. After that, as SEO suggests, you'll need a good survey and honest work estimate for renewal. If you want to work on the boat more than sail her, it might be an interesting (expensive, time-consuming, frustrating) challenge, but if sailing is your goal .... well, best dispose of her and move on to another girl.

Very sad situation.

- Norm

[rbgarr]

Seo's suggestion for visualizing your future with the boat is very useful. To press further into the details, contact Margo on the Forum here.

She spent a number of years (seven?) rebuilding her 39' Concordia yawl, while keeping and sharing accurate records both financial and photographic. She spoke about those details at a conference on restoration and IIRC calculated she spent the equivalent of a nearly a quarter million dollars in time, tools, materials, rented space, utilities and hired labor. (Someone please correct me if that amount is incorrect!)

Her Sarah is a boat that was originally built by one of the best boat builders in the world, was complete, and had thorough records. She and friends did much if not most of the work themselves and had to remove the entire interior on her boat to get at what needed replacing.

The class of boats has an active association and available assistance from a yard that restores them professionally even now. Those resources are valuable in so many ways.

[Lew Barrett]

I'm always amazed at how many people on this forum recommend new builds over restoration as a cheaper option, especially when we're primarily talking do-it-yourself. To build a new version of this boat, even if you did it yourself, would cost a bundle. Rick

That's as may be, but there's a third option outlined by seo. That's determining a realistic budget and calendar to make repairs and comparing it to what is available on the market for the same or less expenditure. I think Dave makes a good point when he says that the boat doesn't know a promise has been made to it.

These things don't pay us back for our efforts, or express gratitude to us for our repairs. What's in it for the owner? As a lover of these boats and the traditions involved in keeping and using them, I am here to say that anthropomorphizing a wooden boat is just silly. I'm not suggesting you have done that, by the way....but no matter how much we enjoy these vessels, they are not in any position to express gratitude!

Rebuilding is sensible if it can be done as a reasonably sane economic proposition and if the owner will derive satisfaction from the event. Otherwise it's a job best left to someone else. Even stopping halfway into the project can represent a huge savings in many cases. Just how much do we owe our boats and for whom are we doing these restorations?

[iridescence]

Thanks for the comments and sentiment. We will repair and restore her and have committed ourselves emotionally and financially to do so. She is a fine boat and really fits what we want. I stand over 6 feet tall and there isn't a place on her where I have to stoop and that includes the engine room. I know there are more modern and capable boats available but we are not your everyday people. When my wife wanted a new sewing machine she could have chosen pretty much any one she wanted. Instead she bought a 1920 Singer. It needed work but now that it has been restored it will outlast her and I with proper care. I think iridescence is the same opportunity for us. Only time will tell but we are still very optimistic.

Thanks again and cheers, Kerry and Jacky

[paladin]

First...I would go after the idiot that was shooting a shotgun in a boat yard....

[Charles Burgess]

This is the tale of the good, the bad, and the really ugly. It could also be titled "Silly people don't know what a chainsaw is for".

I knew she was unique when I saw her and I will keep my promise to her that she will see the world... but dang this lady has some baggage.

The good is that she was well designed by Al Mason to be a world traveler. The bad is that she was never completed and never had a competent person caring for her for most of her life. The ugly is that if you leave an already neglected boat in brackish waters surely nothing good will come. The really ugly is in the attached photos.

Back to the good. We would not have taken on this project if we didn't expect some problems. I guess it's like finding your dream retirement cabin has termites. The damage is pretty extensive so we are still weighing our options. She's a wooden boat and I will only modify that as a last resort. Anyone had any experience with this kind of thing and what method did you use?

If nothing else the photos are kind of interesting in a sort of sick, twisted, sadistic sort of way. [...snipped...]

I've read all of the posts so far and wish not to rehash any...they are all good points to consider. I have a number of questions, but will only post a few at a time.

#1 Have you already purchased the boat?

If you have not already bought the boat I would caution you to proceed slowly.

#2 Where is the boat currently located?

Knowing where she's located by WBF members will allow potential volunteers to help you when needed.

#3 Have you taken-off her lines?

Recording the boat's lines (reconstructing the plans set) is a vital first step before you begin any repairs. While we're at it...

#4 What are her overall dimensions? LOA, LWL, beam, draft, depth of hold, freeboard, displacement, etc.

[RFNK]

Good luck Kerry and Jacky - let's hope the damage is less than you fear and the restoration brings you all you wish for. I completely agree with the comments above about sentimentalizing over any boat but it's neverthelss wonderful that there are people willing to choose restoration over the bonfire. Rick

PS

That's as may be, but there's a third option outlined by seo. That's determining a realistic budget and calendar to make repairs and comparing it to what is available on the market for the same or less expenditure. Good advice from Lew too! For every boat that really needs you (so to speak) there's always at least another that needs you too, and could be a better proposition.

[2MeterTroll]

I am on the other end from Lew on one point but do agree with most all the points posted; with one digression. Do you like the boat? is she yours?

if so pour it on and get it done.

now my diffrence with Lew. i do think an old boat thanks us for the care we use and the good work we do. they keep us safe and i have over the years seen boats that should be reefs make that one last fishing trip getting the crew home and then sinking at the dock.


so to me a little anthropomorphizing might be a good thing; cause you wont starve you kids so if you think the boats a living thing you'll probably do better work than if its just a thing.

[iridescence]

The boat is not unique, nor does it understand the notion of promises, so don't burden yourself with that problem. I couldn't disagree more. She truly is unique even if only to our eyes. Much of what she is made from came from the earth and was once living and breathing so some of us believe that spirit exists as well.

There is another thread about this boat's design and mention of this particular boat by the designer's daughter.
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13827
Some might say I am too sentimental but I simply believe that some things are worth saving no matter the cost.

We decided that this boat fit our needs for a variety of reasons. She is big 50.8'LOA (without bowsprit), 13.8' BEAM, 6.5' DRAFT, and a displacement of 17 TONNES. She is heavy with a dry weight of 46,000 pounds. She is equipped with a 6-71Detroit Diesel and holds 400 gallons of fuel and 500 gallons fresh water. Her cabin was never finished so we have the opportunity to build it out in such a way as to suit our needs. All of her rigging is in very good shape and the inventory of sails is equally as good. I have the original construction plans and am currently converting them to CAD. I have the original sail plans with the contact information for the sail maker. I understand she was built in Murrell's Inlet SC in 1974 but have been unable to track down the original builder. I have attempted to contact Anita Mason to find out if she might know who built her but have had no response. She is on the hard in Beaufort SC but we plan to take her down to a place in Florida while we work on her. While this is going to be a lot of hard work we wouldn't have it any other way. Even with the damage to her hull she is still a lot of boat for less $ than many people spend on a television these days. We have worked hard for others the first half of our lives now we will giggle at the chance to work hard for ourselves. I promised Jacky I would have her off this continent before the big "four O" so I guess I will be a busy guy for the next 18 months. Luckily my lady is ready to don some coveralls and get right in there with me.

Thanks for all your comments. Cheers Kerry and Jacky.

[RFNK]

Good on you. Quick question - what's the timber in the hull (planking, frames, keel) - do you know? Rick

PS I just had a look at the thread you referred to - very interesting! My guess is you'll need to replace that deck but hopefully the deck beams are okay. I suggest you put a fairly strong cover over this boat before you do anything else and then rip the deck off. Take lots of photos and record placements first, of course. The cover will give you protection for all the work you do and taking the deck off will give you light, air, space etc. Patching up a deck that's been left like this is just not worth it, for the sake of a few sheets of plywood.

I'm about to begin restoration of a Twister (28' yacht). I built a steel frame right over the boat using second-quality split pipe from a steel merchant (you'll go a long way to see anything worse than my attempts at welding this) and then covered that with brattice. Now I have a waterproof `shed' that keeps everything really dry. The deck has hundreds of screws through it as some idiot fastened teak decking to the plywood. Having been through a similar deal with a Folkboat I restored, I'm not going to waste my time again trying to use the existing ply deck. It's about the first thing I'll take off this time and about the last thing I'll put back. Let me know if you want a picture of the `shed' and I'll post one next week. Rick

[py]

Good luck.

[hansp77]

Best of luck Kerry and Jacky. I hope you continue to share your journey.
That is a massive job. I hope it goes well and that you are able to financially, physically, psychologically and romantically see it through together. You seem to have the will and determination that makes it possible.
Hans.

[Candyfloss]

If you need inspiration read Floating Kiwi's thread "A folkboat found me", then get in touch with him. His name is also Kerry. Best of luck with this. Keep us posted, we will be watching.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, she's really going to stink in the heat, for quite a while, until you have all the worm affected timber cut away.

Good advice from Rick.

She is a seriously big boat and big boats consume money at a frightening rate! The cost of every single fastening and fitting is so very much more!

I have often wished my 37 footer were a little smaller and I have very seldom wished her larger!

I am sentimentally attached to this old thing; I know I am and I know I shouldn't be, but besides the happy memories there's an awful lot of my financial and sweat equity in her. And she was home for a while and probably will be again, so that's another dimension. I bought her in 84 and she was a "write off" in a hurricane in 87...

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee352/acraigbennett/MirelleinOrwell2003.jpg?t=1245882084

[CharlieCobra]

Those photos remind me of EXACTLY why the PO's C-Flexed Oh Joy. They didn't want that to happen. She is a big boat, plenty of room to roam and lots of tankage. Keep us posted on her.

[seo]

I wish to take a dissenting position on the question of whether boats remember promises. Lew and RBgarr state unequivocally that they don't, and in a way, they're right.
Boats HEAR the promises, but they have an extremely short memory span.
HOWEVER, before they forget, they relay the promise through a special telegraphic link that connects every "sinkhole of corruption" vessel on earth to a special corner of hell, where a former and deceased full partner of Arthur Anderson (he ran the Enron account, before dying of morbid hemmrhoids...) Anyway, all the promises are written in blood on the writhing surface of a lake of flames, where they are reviewed upon the promiser's demise...
SEO

[redbopeep]

Best of luck to you if you choose to take on this project. It sounds very similar to our 30 month rebuild project on our 1931 Crocker schooner (54' on deck, 67' sparred, 15' beam, 6'6" draft, 29T). We're now back in the water re-rigging and at some future date we'll be finishing the interior.

We found the boat, spent more money moving her than on buying her. We ended up doing 3x the work that was originally scoped by a couple of very competent shipwrights. 2x was appropriate level of work, the third x being things like "we want to go ahead and do the entire deck now rather than just part of it...and we might as well re-plank all the boat (rather than 2/3 of it) since we got great materials at a great price and have the time/money for Dave and John to do it now".

We have completed essentially a new hull--all new deck and beams, new frames, new floors, new countertimber, new rudder, new planking. The charthouse, scuttle, decklights, deadwood, keel, stringers, clamps, shelf, some knees, and much hardware is original as are the spars, sails, rigging hardware.

The time commitment was huge. The money commitment was huge. We spoke with the Crocker yard about building a new boat (hull) with the plans of this boat--we'd provide the rig and the lead keel and do the interior ourselves--their quote was very reasonable (according to several surveyors and shipwrights who have discussed it with us) but the quote still ends up being three times what we spent on rebuilding the hull and deck. If we'd paid David and I for our time (at the rate that we paid John, our primary help with the project) we'd still have saved half of what it would have cost to have them do a new boat on these plans.

To date, 13,900 manhours have gone into the project--6364 hired manhours--4988 of which were required to be "skilled labor", 1376 hours of grunt-work labor; 7568 hours of David's and my time. We, of course, didn't pay ourselves, but if we had paid ourselves the average of our skilled labor rate and grunt work rates (depending on what we were doing) we'd still have completed the project for about 1/2 the cost of having the same boat built new with the same materials and methods we used.

If you're getting a fiberglass boat, maybe its cheaper to buy a standard-from a yard boat--but with a wooden boat build, there is so much custom work to be done that the man hours are very large--whether they are yours or someone else's hours.

From a purely cost approach, it was not worth it--both David and I have high billing rates for the work we do professionally--thus the opportunuty cost of setting aside much work for 3 years to see this project through was huge. However, money is not everything--and we both needed a sabbatical from our busy lives and we needed to do a project where we could see it through start-to-finish with satisfaction. That part is priceless and made the project well worth the effort.

It is very likely that we would have had a better boat in the end had we just worked at our regular jobs and paid a competent yard to redo this boat or build a new one on its lines. We tried that originally, but after just a month into the project, found that the yard was understaffed so couldn't provide the competent labor needed to do the project in less than...oh...maybe a decade, the quality wasn't what it should be, and the cost creep would be huge--thus we moved x-country to be where the boat project was and did all of it ourselves.

But, the satisfaction of knowing that we did this ourselves is huge. Also, knowing every bolt, every piece of wood intimately is wonderful, too.

Were we glad we did the rebuild/restore project? Yes! It has been worthwile and we're glad we undertook the project. We gained new skills and were able to achieve personal goals that were important to us with the project.

In hindsight would we do it again or advise anyone to do the same? No. Today with the economy as it is, many more boats are on the market--so finding a classic in much better condition is more likely. In 2006, we just couldn't find anything suiting our needs/taste that was in sufficiently better condition that it wouldn't also require a rebuild. So, ours was a huge project and remains huge until the interior is complete and had we realized the sheer number of hours that would go into it we'd have searched even harder to find another boat "closer" to a restoration rather than the complete rebuild that this project ended up being. Further, we did find a few boats in Europe that might have suited, but it seemed a daunting task to relocate to where the boat was--do final refitting in an unfamiliar country and then finally begin voyaging with our new boat. We now realize that what we actually did was more daunting--we were just too inexperienced to realize it :p

If you also have many personal reasons (as we did) to take on this particular project, then go for it--and good luck to you.

Brenda and David

[rbgarr]

... all the promises are written in blood on the writhing surface of a lake of flames, where they are reviewed upon the promiser's demise...
SEO

:D

I'm trying to remember now if I've ever made a promise to a boat! :eek:

[offshore68]

I do not see a problem fixing the sailboat.Worm repair is the easiest fix there is.Just cut out planks bad enough that they need changing and replace them.If there is any in keel,etc,just replace damage.It is not that hard.After boat has set on hill a while the rest of them will be dead,so the damage will not increase.We have fixed enough worm damage to know.Also ,if you let it set in fresh water a few weeks out of year worms will not be a problem again,that will stop any that may have started.I have looked at pictures and read posts and just don`t see why this job freaks everyone out.:confused:Included is a small photo of sailboat just before it was loaded and taken to be launched in 1974.

[Lew Barrett]

Interesting to see this thread return. I'd forgotten that I'd posted here, what I'd posted here, and had to read it again, then was surprised at how I'd said what I did. But I am not eating any of my words!

I enjoy the contributions from all, not the least SEO and David, but then I often nod "yes" when reading them. And not to rule out the others here either.
So what happened?

I think there is a lot of wisdom on this thread, and truly nobody can tell another what efforts are worth doing and which aren't, but one big expensive restoration sure informs the individual who accomplished it what decisions to make "the next time."

What decisions have been made here and how is the process moving forward? Anybody know?

[offshore68]

Sorry Lew,I was not trying to ruffle your feathers.I meant no offence to anyone.
But I am not eating my words either.
Worm repair looks scary but is easy to fix.I spent 30 years doing it. My last worm job was in 2007 on sportfishing boat.It was worse than any pictures I have seen of this sailboat.
I cut out big chunk of keel and plenty of planks.Naturally we cut keel so when new piece was installed and all bolts were in it was strong as ever.I fixed it in a couple weeks,No problem,It is still the prettiest charter boat around.It got a new engine this year.
This sailboat is a rare design,was built by man who did top quality work.Even as bad as it looks.With a little work it could be a beauty again.

[floatingkiwi]

Please tell me that this Kerry is not our other Kerry? Kerry? Rick

No mate. Fortunately it isn't me. I've done enough of repairs to the likes of what is here, for a wee while anyway.

Good judgement comes from experience,
Experience comes from bad judgement.

[chuckt]

He should be done right about now according to his estimate. Wonder what happened.

[Lew Barrett]

Sorry Lew,I was not trying to ruffle your feathers.

Not to worry, no offense taken whatsoever. I am curious if any progress has been made.

[chuckt]

And I've made many oaths to my boat!

Oh, ya'll were talking about nice oaths.

[offshore68]

Glad no one took offence at my post.I am just a hard core wood boat lover.I have posted a small picture of this sailboat on it`s launching day in 1974.Anyway,good luck on your projects everyone,and happy sailing.

[Phil Y]

You are stark raving mad-but you know that. Good on you, good luck, and please please please keep us informed and post lots of pics! This is great stuff. I was toying with the idea of buying another boat a couple of weeks ago. Big old fishing boat on ebay over here. Then I saw in the news it had sunk at its mooring. Lucky really. I don't need another boat!!

Phil

[offshore68]

I don`t understand a wooden boat site where most people do not want to repair boats.Better just buy a fiberglass one.Anyway,like I said before,happy sailing.

[Phil Y]

Bugger-just realised this is one of those old threads which has resurrected itself. I winder how irridessence is going?
Phil

[wizbang 13]

Looks like anti fouling put directly on the planking.
If for nothing elce, epoxy painted on can prevent this. Then, so can a buncha coats of redlead.
Hope it gets re planked.

[Lew Barrett]

I don`t understand a wooden boat site where most people do not want to repair boats.Better just buy a fiberglass one.Anyway,like I said before,happy sailing.

It's a matter of what is judged to be efficient use of time, money, resources. People all read that differently, but the advice returned is going to reflect the opinion and experience of the individuals giving it. In my opinion we never did get enough information on this boat to make a real decision one way or another, but for bigger projects the numbers rarely pencil compared to buying a better boat that can be sailed off the dock.

The issues surrounding large scale restorations need to be approached practically and realistically. One person in ten thousand probably has seen a 50 foot restoration through to the end. Of course, that 100th of one percent is more likely to be on this site, but I have a wager to make:

Anybody who blithely advises just going ahead and doing "it" because the spirit of the boat demands it (and anyway, the
practitioner only lives once) has probably never actually brought a big boat back themselves. Owners in a position to do that...or advise it be done.... more than once can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Either that or they are extremely wealthy or a paid professional who needs work. Very few indeed have more than one major restoration in them, because having done one, the real costs become abundantly clear.

It's a disservice to recommend that people involve themselves in major restorations unless they are fully aware of what is involved. If they elect to go forward anyway when they have full disclosure, great, because that can be rewarding. But few indeed would do it a second time.

[David C]

Well, she's a beautiful boat, no doubt. I guess the question I would ask myself would be "Do I like working on boats more than I like sailing them". The answer for me was no. And I passed over at least two boats that might have more closely approached my romantic ideal of "the noble schooner" but would have involved years of work just to get them back in the water. I have now been happily sailing Renegade out of Branford for the last six years instead of freezing my backside pulling planks in the dead of winter. I do love working on wooden boats but I get my boat repair/restoration fix and then some just trying to stay ahead of her. This way I get to do both.

I'd also weigh in against making promises to inanimate objects, even beautiful ones. Make your promises to the people you love and/or yourself.

Good luck. I hope you don't wind up discouraged, downhearted and divorced over this. Many have.

D.

[chuckt]

Great observations Lew--with which I agree. My guess is this project never happened or fell by the wayside. My own restoration has shown me what a huge time and money investment such a project is. I often do a search of old wooden sailboat cruisers for sale on yachtworld.com. There are always 20-30 of them in sail-away shape that meet my budget and are drop dead gorgeous. The prices are far less than an extensive restoration. That's where I am headed when I get ready for my next boat.

[offshore68]

Lew you have got a lot of nerve to accuse me of trying to drum up work by suggesting that this boat be fixed.Yes,our family has been in boat repair business for 70 years,but it is over.I myself worked on boats from 1979-2008.The man who built this boat is DEAD,and *we are no longer in the boat business*.I got sick of it.
I would not touch another boat.
I see you live in Seattle.Thats cold water.What do you know about worms??? Something you read in a book no doubt.The ones who know the least talk the most.
I have one more thing to say about this boat.I could not care less if it gets fixed .The man wanted advice and I gave it from first hand experience.Don`t want to take it.Fine with me.
If he wants to listen to you yo yo`s ,then cut up boat and haul it to dump.I am going to say it once more Lew *We no longer work on boats* Do you understand????
It has been years since I visited this site.
For some reason this thread came up in google search and I recognised boat and wanted to help.
*And got accused of being a crook for my effort*.
You sunday sailors make me laugh.Put in a little putty and you are A boat expert.I will not be checking back as boats no longer interest me.So call me names,put me down,give me a good going over.What sunday sailors say is a joke to me.I do not care.
Goodbye Boat experts.
P.S. Don`t forget to rake me over the coals like good little sunday sailors.:p

[outofthenorm]

Mr Offshore68, on behalf of many present, let me respond.

1. You have missed the fact that the original post is from June of 2009. It came and went and we never heard what the original poster decided.
2. You have chosen to completely mis-read Lew's post. No accusation of any kind was made against you.
3. The opinions and advice above was given honestly and fairly, and largely based on real-world experience.
4. Your bitterness and vitriol is not really welcome here. We try to behave civilly above the Bilge.

- Norm

[Lew Barrett]

Lew you have got a lot of nerve to accuse me of trying to drum up work by suggesting that this boat be fixed.Our family has been in boat repair business for 70 years,but it is over.I myself worked on boats from 1979-2001.The man who built this boat is dead,and *we are no longer in the boat business*.I got sick of it.
I repair antique cars for a living.I would not touch another boat.
*W

Thank you Norm. I think Offshore misunderstood me and thought I was addressing him directly. His responses is very aggressive and infers insult where none was intended. Perhaps it is as well that he won't be back. In case he does return:

Offshore, I believe you are at sea on this. I wasn't even talking to you. I don't know you from Adam, I don't know who you are or what your name is. I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote my last post, and although I can see that saying "it's a disservice....." suggests poor advice, I really didn't have you in particular in mind, You are not even the only person taking a view opposing my own here. Since I never said: "Gee Offshore are you trying to drum up business?" You can take me at my word on this.

If I were to take issue with you, I would speak directly to you as politely as disagreement might allow. I did say (more or less) that who selects to work on these boats and why they select a project is entirely a matter of personal choice. I have learned that to meet my own needs, projects need to be selected with great care. If the OP is convinced this is the one, more power to him. Nobody will be more impressed by his good work than I.

Puget Sound has gribbles. My boat doesn't because it is kept in fresh water so you are right; I have never suffered worm damage.
I am not embarrassed by that as I don't consider worm damage a badge of honor. A bad plank is a bad plank. Given enough of them, the task becomes a big challenge. Economically fixing the boat depends on just how much damage and wear there is. If that amounts to more than the value of the boat, the owner should know that. Then they can make a good decision.

[wizbang 13]

Plenty of worms in the Puget Sound.
Gribbles make smaller holes, but more of em.


Anybody can get a "bad load o rum"now n then.

[Lew Barrett]

I never considered the possibility of bad rum.

[chuckt]

Lew--it was good advice which I tried to echo. I would hate to see such strong reactions dissuade you from saying the same in similar circumstances. There are so many boats out there that need saving that are in halfway decent shape. Even the ones in decent shape are going to require significant time and money. I think its a service to encourage folks to take on a boat they have a much higher chance of not getting burnt out on.

[Lew Barrett]

Thanks Chuck. I am bloodied but unbowed :D I will continue to shoot off my yap at whim!

[Geoff Plante]

I see the same thing happen in my profession (automotive restoration). What passes for a restoration to the layman is fresh paint and a tune up (understated, but illustrative). In reality to restore a car, any car to showroom condition can take upwards of 3000 man hours between mechanical, paint and interior, then you add the cost of materials and supplies to that. The more expensive the car, the more expensive the parts.
VERY few cars can be purchased, restored to that degree and still be worth more than was put into them, yet people do it all the time. Personally I think it is out of ignorance of the true costs involved, or being one of the few I call 'automotive philanthropists' who will shovel money into a car just to not see it go to the crusher.
I would rather get straight forward, honest advice that is a rude wake up call than dump time and money into a project with little to no intrinsic value and no way to recoup the investment (other than pleasant time spent at the helm, something we can only set a value on at an individual level).

In my line of work there are unscrupulous individuals who will gladly take your money and restore your car. If you are lucky they will actually do the work they bill you for and you will have the best $2000,000 car worth $20,000 on earth, and there are those who will just rob you blind.

Bottom line, the better informed you are (even if it is reading wide ranging opinions on a forum that at least make you second guess what you are doing) the better your chances of not feeling ripped off or duped when you are done. And that means maybe you will actually enjoy the boat when you finish repairing it instead of looking at it like a money pit.

[Tom Freeman]

If there is one service this forum can perform, it is to provide advice like this. I'll never forget the day Peter Proctor told us that we were about to spend more money on our boat than it would ever be worth. But at least we knew that about 3 weeks into the project and had the chance to make a conscious decision to move forward rather than being surprised and stranded a few months further down the road.