PDA

View Full Version : 50' wooden cruiser



Pages : [1] 2

fireball
06-21-2009, 03:54 PM
I came across an ad for a wooden boat and I went and looked at it yesterday. The boat was started in 1940 in the guys backyard he then moved to McHenry and had the boat moved too. He eventually got too old to work on the project and around 1982 sold it to the current owner. At this time the boat was just a shell. All of the frame of the boat was there and the planking above the waterline. They then put in Greewich diesels and finished out most of the interior and around 1990 or 1991. They then dug a pond and placed the boat in it and let it float for almost exactly 2 months in the summer of 1992 before their dam was getting to weak. The boat is now sitting on a homemade trailer and has not had anything done to it since then it is under a shed and covered in a tarp. While they had it in the water they ran the port engine for 1.2 hours and the starboard engine for .2 hours, they could not run them any longer because they were afraid they would blow out the dam. After they pulled it out they found out that when the wood swelled it squished most of the caulk out. The boat is 50' long 14' wide 13' tall and weighs around 20 tons.

My question is why would the caulk do this and what could be done to prevent it from doing it again? Other than just looking at the board what can I do to check for rot? What would I need to do to get the engines ready to go again? From what I can see all the wood is in excellent condition. It has seen very little water. Will the fact that it has been dry all this time negatively effect the wood?
I dont know much about wood boats but I am hoping to learn, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

mcdenny
06-21-2009, 05:18 PM
Niagra Falls is to white water kayaking as that project is to someone wanting to learn about wooden boats.

Lew Barrett
06-21-2009, 09:43 PM
The "caulk" squeezed out because as the planking expanded, it put pressure on the seams and squeezed the substance that the seams were paid in out like toothpaste from a tube. This is actually a welcomed event, especially in a boat that has never seen water since the keel was laid seventy years ago:eek:

Without considerably more information, it's impossible to be much help, but photos would be highly useful. For a large project like this, though, most of us on the forum would be very surprised if a happy outcome could be easily achieved by an inexperienced person, although I guess there's a first time for everything. As I said, pictures are welcomed and useful.

Larks
06-21-2009, 10:35 PM
Meanwhile though Fireball, welcome to the forum mate and keep us informed. Don't be too disheartened by the advice you receive here, it is mostly very much well intentioned and given by guys who know what they are talking about. You may find some cranky old farts amongst the advisers and you'll need to weed out some bullsh*t here and there but I've found that most of the legitimate advice is from people with tremendous experience who have our best interests at heart.

You'll ultimately do what you want to do, I don't think anyone would expect you to let anyone make you do otherwise, but hopefully what you hear here will mean that you do it well informed.

S B
06-21-2009, 10:59 PM
The caulk is the fiber driven between the seams to make the boat water tight. Paying is the filler, placed in the seam, to cover the caulk and smoothen the hull. Paying squeezing out is good, caulk doing the same is not.

fireball
06-21-2009, 11:35 PM
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0770.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0771.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0775.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0773.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0801.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0800.jpg

fireball
06-21-2009, 11:39 PM
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/retrywheelhouse2.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0777.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0783.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0787.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0795.jpg

Hwyl
06-21-2009, 11:45 PM
Wow, quite a find

Larks
06-21-2009, 11:47 PM
There's no doubt that she looks like an interesting project Fireball, possibly a little bit hogged, ie - in the first two photos just behind the shed post the deck seems to sag down aft. Possibly because of how she's been stored or it's possibly even how she's designed to be and how she was built. I'm sure others will be along with advice on if that is a major problem or not but I can see why you'd be excited about her.

Is she the right price to take a bit of a risk on?? She really does look like something quite special.

fireball
06-22-2009, 12:07 AM
$1000

StevenBauer
06-22-2009, 12:14 AM
She looks much better than I thought she would after your initial post. If the engines are good that price seems like a steal. But, it still is a large project and will cost much more than that to complete. I hope you tackle it and share your progress with us here. :)


Steven

fireball
06-22-2009, 12:16 AM
The engines were new when installed. That was in 1992 one ran for 1.2 hours the other for .2
They are Greenwich Diesels
The generator is an onan diesel

Larks
06-22-2009, 12:21 AM
Do you have somewhere to work on her and keep her? Is the trailor still roadworthy? I've got to admit that I'd be quite excited about her myself!!

In answer to one of your questions though, I can't see how being dry for so long could negatively effect the wood, if however she has had rainwater/freshwater in her bilges she could have rot that would be quite a problem.
You will ultimately need to get somwone who knows wooden boats to physicaly inspect her for you, preferably a surveyor who is experienced with wooden boats or a wooden boat builder. Do not waste any money on a surveyor who does not have solid experience with wooden boats.

What area are you in? someone here may know of someone suitable to have a look at her with you.

fireball
06-22-2009, 12:47 AM
McHenry Il

It has a roof over it and a tarp and plastic.

The trailer was only used on the road once and that was to move it 2 miles from where the original owner had it to where it is. The trailer has no brakes and the boat weighs 20 tons. When it was moved from the previous owner up to the gravel pit they used a big tractor. It was moved from Chicago to Mchenry on a trailer but that has been gone for years.

I measured yesterday she would fit between the garage and the barn. What I still need to find out is how to move a boat that big and whether I should bring it home 1 mile or if I should go to the marina 26 miles straight down the road.

Larks
06-22-2009, 01:23 AM
McHenry Il

It has a roof over it and a tarp and plastic.

The trailer was only used on the road once and that was to move it 2 miles from where the original owner had it to where it is. The trailer has no brakes and the boat weighs 20 tons. When it was moved from the previous owner up to the gravel pit they used a big tractor. It was moved from Chicago to Mchenry on a trailer but that has been gone for years.

I measured yesterday she would fit between the garage and the barn. What I still need to find out is how to move a boat that big and whether I should bring it home 1 mile or if I should go to the marina 26 miles straight down the road.

I'd suggest that if you can bring her home and house her and get a decent roof over her to keep the rain out and expect her to be there for a while, then do so. Any yard will cost a lot of money for storage over a long period and you'll find it easier to make time to work on herif she's a stroll out the back door.

If she is only a mile from where you are now could you make some kind of arrangement to leave her there until you have done what work you need to and are ready to launch her? Allow yourself plenty of time if you discuss that with the owners...at least 2-3 years then add a bit more (depending on your situation and how much time you intend devoting to her). Does she come with the trailer that she is on? It might be worth trying to keep her on it if you can, even if you need to modify it to support the back of the keel better.

fireball
06-22-2009, 01:31 AM
Trailer is included if I want it. The reason that they are selling it so cheap is because the owner of the property wants it out of there. They started trying to sell it over a year ago for $30000 but the owner of the property wants it gone now. I would realy prefer to leave it on the trailer but it has no brakes and that is a lot of weight to try and stop without trailer brakes. especially because there is a very steep downhill slope right when you come out of the pit.

The reason I would consider going straight to the marina would be because of the increased cost of moving it twice versus one move straight down the road and the storage at the marina.

fireball
06-22-2009, 01:32 AM
Do you think the trailer could be made to work?

For support the rear of the boat he has some of the adjustable jacks like what boats sit on at the marina during the winter that I could put back under the rear.

Larks
06-22-2009, 01:38 AM
Trailer is included if I want it. The reason that they are selling it so cheap is because the owner of the property wants it out of there. They started trying to sell it over a year ago for $30000 but the owner of the property wants it gone now. I would realy prefer to leave it on the trailer but it has no brakes and that is a lot of weight to try and stop without trailer brakes. especially because there is a very steep downhill slope right when you come out of the pit.

The reason I would consider going straight to the marina would be because of the increased cost of moving it twice versus one move straight down the road and the storage at the marina.

I did a similar exercise when buying my H28 for restoration and ended up taking her home and modifying my shed to hold her, though she's half the size of yours. Do your figures, I reckon you'll find the cost of storage at the marina for the time that it is likely to take to get her ready for launch will outweigh the cost of moving it twice. You may even be able to modify the trailer in the time that you have it to add breaks which in itself would make the trailer a valuable piece of kit and reduce the cost of the second move to that of just a towing vehicle.

Just expect that is going to take quite a lot longer to get her to where you want her before launching her than you expect.

Larks
06-22-2009, 01:41 AM
Re the trailer, if you do keep it you may need to move her seperate to the trailer, tow the trailer home yourself and set it up then truck the boat to it seperately. Going on the photos though she certainly needs something supporting her stern.

fireball
06-22-2009, 01:45 AM
He got the jacks with the intention of lifting it off the trailer onto something more road worthy but decided it would take to many to lift that much weight. With time I am sure the trailer could be made to have air brakes seeing as it is made out of truck axles and steel I-beams. The tongue could be a little more difficult because it is intended to attach to the drawbar on a tractor not a kingpin on a truck. One really nice thing about the trailer is that the front axle steers like a hay wagon.

I could probably get the roof of the structure that is built around it. In order for the boat to come out the structure will have to be dismantled.

hansp77
06-22-2009, 01:51 AM
For $1000, IF you have the space, IF you actually want a boat of this sort and size, and IF you can realistically see yourself putting in the long hard hours and many many more thousand$ to get it finished, and then deal with the ongoing maintenance and mooring costs, then I would just grab it. Quickly. Surely if something really bad shows up you will be able to get more than that back scrapping it and parting it out- engines, trailer, various fittings, etc, and a decent pile of firewood(:o).
Prima facie it looks pretty damn good.

My 2c, possibly worth a lot less.

Whatever you do, don't just buy it because it looks like a bargain- do you REALLY want/need this boat?

For towing it only 1 mile, it would seem to me (with absolutely no expertise to judge such matters:D) that the trailer would be able to be made to work. You could creep home (getting it towed by something with the power and brakes to manage it) at a crawling 2.5miles an hour (where the lack of brakes on the trailer should not be the biggest issue), with warning cars in front and behind, and still get it home in 15 minutes. The safety police will probably crucify for saying it, but if it was me, and the route was not hazardous to people or property, and after doing a thorough job checking the trailer, and securing and re-supporting the load, I would just go for it. Yeeahhahhh!

fireball
06-22-2009, 02:01 AM
That is what they did when they moved it in the 80s.

The only law I can find forbidding moving something of this size is for height. as it sits it is about 1' too tall. The secretary of state will give me a permit for $125 to be able to haul something that is too tall. Given the location of it I don't think that there would be any clearance issues. When they hauled it the last time they just used 2x4s to prop up some of the power lines, but I dont think that there would be any obstructions now because it is a main stretch of road that handles quite a few oversize loads.

There is also another way to bring it home where I would not have to go down the hill or back up the hill but the road is restricted to 4 tons

Larks
06-22-2009, 02:18 AM
Not knowing your area, can you sling a farmer with a decent sized tractor a carton of beer to drag it out in the middle of the night when there's not much traffic about and do the same for the local police to flash their lights back and front of it? Call it a donation to their Christmas or Thanksgiving function..

jackster
06-22-2009, 08:05 AM
Wow!
Just a great looking boat, I hope you decide to take (buy) it.
Some excellent advise offered here, especially about getting experienced opinions by a woodenboat expert.
It seems to me that you could, as the very LAST resort, get your money back with the machinery alone, my sympathies to the present owner(s), they must be under a lot of pressure to move it and see it completed, or they would cannibalize (the only word for it IMHO) it themselves.
A couple of observations; Can't tell what is squeezing out from the seams, looks like oakum or cotton or it could be the paying compound, you should be able to tell by tearing some off. But by the looks of the plank fastening pattern, it may be batten seamed, and from the lack of extensive rust streaks, nonferrous fastened, a good thing, I think.
I don't think, at least from 1000 miles away and only from your pictures that the protruding seam fillers is a serious issue. Fastenes should be examined ie. a few removed and looked over. But these are issues to be mulled at leisure(?) after (if) you get it home, or where ever.
Wishing you the very best of luck.

Noah
06-22-2009, 08:17 AM
To my eye it looks like Slick Seam was put in the seams. It's a wax based filler that is designed to be squeezed out.

Rich Jones
06-22-2009, 08:21 AM
If nothing else, put it on The Wooden Boat Rescue Foundation website, an online place where old wooden boats go in hopes of finding owners and not the chainsaw.

Saltiguy
06-22-2009, 09:00 AM
Grab it! It's a no brainer
Sneak it home on its' trailer as suggested by some, or hire a professional boat mover. Probably not too expensive, and the pro will know about permits and how to block (support) the boat properly when you get her home. Worth the money IMO. It will probably take you many months (or years) working at home to get her ship-shape but you will have a jewel. Act now!

Lew Barrett
06-22-2009, 10:43 AM
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0783.jpg

I agree with SB that the images indicate a boat in better condition than your description led me to believe. The stuff on the bulkhead is worth $1000 and the rest is free.

However, I also agree with Steven when he says not to underestimate
the scope of work required to bring this around.

CharlieCobra
06-22-2009, 10:52 AM
Wow, what a find indeed.

Rev Geo
06-22-2009, 10:58 AM
A thousand bucks?? Hell man, the engines are worth more than that. Go for it.

Rev George

Ian McColgin
06-22-2009, 11:22 AM
It sounds as if some sort of seam slick was stuck in without any caulking under. Just as well the boat mostly sat when soaked so long ago. But she's redried again so to caulk her right it would make sense to soak her up first.

I'd not bother trying to seal the seams for that. Put burlap or something in the bilges and water her from inside. This is just to get the wood moisture content up to a proper level.

She's going to be huge work to finish. I'd get the engins out before moving her. A modern hydraulic trailor can be worked under after blocking and easing the current trailor out. Tedious but no real challenge for an experienced hauler.

Before anything, though, I'd get a versitile wooden boat surveyor to go over her with an eye to a finish building list and estimate. She's dry enough that maybe you want to strip the interior, router the seams, epoxy in soft wood splines, and epoxy encapsulate the hull. Maybe such old dried wood can come back enough that the seams might hold their caulk. But I have my doubts which is why the surveyor.

Also, the surveyor is not already in love with the hulk and is aware that there is nothing so expensive as a free boat.

Eyeball any way of getting her to usable - have at least $30,000 handy for the combination of time, material, work space, tools and some outside help that you're gonna need of the next couple of years.

If you've the cash, courage and time,

G'luck

catndahats
06-22-2009, 11:51 AM
WOW!!!
What he said: "She's going to be huge work to finish. I'd get the engins out before moving her. A modern hydraulic trailor can be worked under after blocking and easing the current trailor out. Tedious but no real challenge for an experienced hauler.

Before anything, though, I'd get a versitile wooden boat surveyor to go over her with an eye to a finish building list and estimate. She's dry enough that maybe you want to strip the interior, router the seams, epoxy in soft wood splines, and epoxy encapsulate the hull. Maybe such old dried wood can come back enough that the seams might hold their caulk. But I have my doubts which is why the surveyor.

Also, the surveyor is not already in love with the hulk and is aware that there is nothing so expensive as a free boat.

Eyeball any way of getting her to usable - have at least $30,000 handy for the combination of time, material, work space, tools and some outside help that you're gonna need of the next couple of years.

If you've the cash, courage and time,

G'luck"

Go for it!

Lew Barrett
06-22-2009, 01:31 PM
Thirty thousand is just a starting sum.

Larks
06-22-2009, 07:21 PM
Actually, the eight bronze portholes are probably worth a thousand bucks alone....in Oz they'd be about $400.00 - $600.00 each

Ian McColgin
06-22-2009, 07:23 PM
Lew, you're likely right but I was trying to be encouraging. One should not even think of this job if one has less than $30,000 ready cash. It will likely cost considerably more but at that point the lucky bugger is so far in that he has to finish the job, even if it means mortgaging the farm and hiring out the children.

seven up
06-23-2009, 01:15 AM
That is a sturdy looking boat. Is there alot of obvious rot ? I ask because I can't see anything wrong with her from the photos.

Have you considered bottom paint and launch while working on her in the water where she belongs ?

What an incredible deal unless she's rotted out all over the place.

Congratulations. It looks like a new boat to me but what the hell do I know ?


Enjoy

Larks
06-23-2009, 01:36 AM
"Have you considered bottom paint and launch while working on her in the water where she belongs ?"

That might not be a bad idea at all.......if you can get someone to inspect the hull for you before hand you might find that she is Ok to go in with fairly little work on the seams and some good hull painting and antifoul. What looks like a couple of cracked planks just up above the forward porthole in the first photo could be repaired in the water and most other internal and cosmetic stuff could be done in the water.

If the option of going in the water quickly instead of paying storage in a yard or taking her home ends up being viable, it would pay to get someone to help you do up a comprehensive job list to see if there is anything else that needs doing before going in.

As well as the timbers, frames and seams, think of things like stern glands, exhaust systems, through hull fittings, anodes etc that may need to be checked, serviced and possibly replaced to make sure she is watertight,safe and durable. Anything that can't easily be done while she's in the water.

Larks
06-23-2009, 01:38 AM
Having her in the water may also make her easier to sell if you find she is too much for you

C. Ross
06-23-2009, 08:32 AM
I'd respectfully disagree with brother Larks and others about putting her in the water unless you have a thorough survey that vouches for the soundness of her bottom, the condition of all through-hull fittings, and the condition of her batteries and pumps. The boat hasn't been in the water for a very long time and the launch will require lots of care, probably hanging in slings for a couple of days.

Plus, almost every repair you're going to do will be ten times easier on land than on water.

This is an interesting boat found under really remarkable circumstances. You haven't described your wooden boat experience Fireball, but my amateur opinion is that this is an opportunity to adopt a baby elephant for free. If you already run a circus a free baby elephant is a steal. If not, well, you'll need to buy a circus to support your new free baby elephant. You might be that guy, and this boat might be worth it.

Good luck!

johngsandusky
06-23-2009, 09:07 AM
Intriguing find, amazing story. I'd be tempted too.
Three key points bear repeating:
1 Decide if this is really the right boat for you. If she needed no work at all, would you need a boat this big? could you do the upkeep? afford the dockage?
2 At least two people have put a lot of time and money into this project and failed to complete it. Do you have the free time for this? I might consider it if I had time to fix it, use it, and if all fails, to break it up and sell the parts.
3 Get a professional to survey it. If it will float, it's worth a shot. It doesn't need an interior to be useful.
Keep us posted.

hansp77
06-23-2009, 11:40 AM
Being a 'working on the boat on the water' person- I'd respectfully agree with C. Ross. Ten times easier working on her on land might just be an understatement. Doing serious work on the water is a PITA that can be overemphasised. The boat is only 1 mile from home, a home with the space to store it, and possibly on a trailer that with some work will get it there- straight home with it would be the only option for me.

I have no idea about power boats this size, and really it would appear that there is a lack of information to make anything close to a definitive judgment- and I am all for generous estimations of cost when calculating how much it would cost to finish or restore project boats... and then doubling it at least-
however, with all due respect to Ian and Lew- and I am not disagreeing- I am wondering where the estimations of 30K at least are coming from?

These are all assumptions that would need to be proven, but- Hull looks good, interior looks good and near complete, engines, props, fuel tanks (assumed) etc are in and 'near new' and proven to run, looks like a decent amount of electrics are done, a lot of the finicky and costly details are done, lights, portholes, rails/pullpit/lifelines, there appears to be a good pile of timber with it, much of it looking cut to fit (something?) already... and then who knows what else comes with the boat?
This isn't an old boat with a lifetime of issues, but a an old new build with a hell of a lot of stuff already done, and hopefully (not the most unreasonable hope) not needing to be seriously re-done.
I see a hell of a lot of time and labor, a lot of prep and paint, a decent amount of timber, and a lot of money, but providing that things are as they seem, I do wonder where the 30K just for a start estimate comes in? (considering the experience of the people saying this, I am sure I am wrong, but just curious)

If I had the space to store it, especially so close nearby, then I would have already bought it at this price- even though I don't want a boat this big or of this type (but then I might warm to it:rolleyes:). I would be hesitant, very very hesitant, to part it out (anything like this really deserves more IMHO) and if I didn't want to finish myself would endeavor to on-sell it to someone who did have the want and resources to finish it- at a tidy little profit. I know your market over there is a lot cheaper than mine, but surely, with a little time, this boat is worth a lot more than the asking price? If worst came to worst, then of course it could be parted out, and I would find it hard to believe that a few dollars could not be made on it still.

Running costs, yearly fees and maintenance, etc, etc, are of course crucial to consider whether this is the right boat- but even me who could honestly answer that this is not the right boat for me- given the situation of fireball, I would still buy the thing:D

Anyway, I do hope this story continues.

A professional, but more importantly, GOOD survey (with estimated cost to completion) is obviously the first step... but if I was fireball, it would be the first step after I bought it and got the thing home. (but then I am an idiot;))

fireball
06-23-2009, 02:53 PM
I thought about putting it in the water but decided I would probably get more done on it if it was in the backyard, and that would give me $3912 (cost of a 50' slip at Waukegan Harbor) more to put into the boat this year. The main thing holding me back right now is getting it home.

Saltiguy
06-23-2009, 03:32 PM
Sunday morning, early. Get a big tractor, a few pals to help and sneak that baby over to your house at walking speed. Cake job. Lots easier and lots more fun than doing it legal.

fireball
06-23-2009, 03:44 PM
Do you think I could maybe just roll the whole thing on to a low-boy trailer.

Gary E
06-23-2009, 03:51 PM
Do you think I could maybe just roll the whole thing on to a low-boy trailer.

Sorta... but
Go visit a yacht broker and ask him to give you the names of a few boat haulers, the kind that haul big boats like yours, and larger, to FLA instead of staying in frozen Chicago for the winter. This trailer will be hydraulicly operated and able to sneak in under your boat where it sits right now, pick it up, and pull it out of there and down the street to your house where it will be positioned and unloaded exactly where you want it.

Looks sorta like this

http://www.ableboattransport.com/images/boat%20transport%2026.JPG

More here.... http://www.ableboattransport.com/boat-transport-gallery.html

fireball
06-23-2009, 04:03 PM
Sorta... but
Go visit a yacht broker and ask him to give you the names of a few boat haulers, the kind that haul big boats like yours, and larger, to FLA instead of staying in frozen Chicago for the winter. This trailer will be hydraulicly operated and able to sneak in under your boat where it sits right now, pick it up, and pull it out of there and down the street to your house where it will be unloaded and set exactly where you want it.

Looks sorta like this

http://www.ableboattransport.com/images/boat%20transport%2026.JPG

More here.... http://www.ableboattransport.com/boat-transport-gallery.html

But the boat in the picture was not already sitting on a trailer.

Gary E
06-23-2009, 06:31 PM
But the boat in the picture was not already sitting on a trailer.
The guys that use those trailers dont care where or what your boat is sitting on.

seven up
06-23-2009, 06:55 PM
For the height restrictions, the telephone company is at the bottom, then cable, then electricity is at the top.

Hopefully you will not pull down a telephone fiber optic cable. Four grand in slip fees would be small change in comparison to the telephone cable repair.

The hydraulic lift trailer would be the way to go IMO as the company will already have all the permits in place as well as insurance. Also their trailers are the best for protecting wood boats in transit.

I do look forward to additional posts that will update on your progress.

2MeterTroll
06-23-2009, 07:12 PM
jumpin jiminy take the boat and run. guys go back to those photos and take a real long look at the workmenship and those planks this looks like an easy restore and float. who ever the fella was built that boat he put a mighty good chunk of time in that hull and it shows. I dont think shes hogging much at all looks kinda like a camera angle thing.

Bob Cleek
06-23-2009, 07:47 PM
ROTFLMAO!

Some fella had a lot of fun "building his dream boat" before he shuffled off this orb and what you are looking at is a dead guy's dream.

Yes... for a grand (and at that price, tomorrow they'll give it away for nothing just to get it out of there), you'd probably make three or four times that, maybe a lot more, scrapping her out. The big money is in the engines. Beyond that, while there are things worth keeping like the portlights, it's mostly all marine flea market material. Forget the crap like the potmetal bulkhead lights from Home Depot he's got all over the place.

I'd bet anything that you'll find the boat has major issues. It's just sat too long. It is obvious that the first guy who started her knew what he was doing. The next guy, who probably was succeptible to the same seductive visions you are now having, didn't know what he was doing. You can tell the difference between who built what when you look at the cabin works. Pretty lubberly cabin side planking and the knobby "turned" 1970's lumberyard posts? Puleeze! He may have been a passible carpenter, but he was no boatbuilder. (Which means things aren't likely to have lasted.) Consider this... how much do you think he knew about what he was doing to end up putting the whole damn ass end of the boat in a ditch full of water so he could "test the engines." WTF what he smokin'? Did it ever occur to him to simply attach a garden hose to his raw water intake?

I've seen a lot of boats like this one cut up and sent to the landfill. The mechanicals look worth saving, yes, but the rest of it is poorly executed in large measure and this is a very big boat that is going to be very expensive to own. I don't know where you are, but considering West Coast prices, you can figure six to eight hundred a month just to tie her up legally.

Oh, and by the way... make sure you get the registration or documentation papers transferred correctly. The LAST thing you ever want to own is a boat that size you can't register without paying more in penalties than the damn thing is worth.

But... like the man said... it's a "free elephant" and if running a circus is what you want to do, you may as well start with the elephant.

Larks
06-23-2009, 08:56 PM
ROTFLMAO!

But... like the man said... it's a "free elephant" and if running a circus is what you want to do, you may as well start with the elephant.

:D:D I have to say that it has been absolutely worth turning the computer on today just for that gem....:D:D

Tumzara
06-23-2009, 10:02 PM
Let's be honest. Who on here, if they found that boat for that price would not be thinking, "Now where could I put that thing for a couple of years"

Bob Cleek
06-24-2009, 12:55 AM
Let's be honest. Who on here, if they found that boat for that price would not be thinking, "Now where could I put that thing for a couple of years"

Probably all of us... the smart ones for about ten seconds. It'd get my attention for the value of the mechanicals and maybe... just maybe, for the hull, if it were in decent condition and well built. The chainsaw would hit that cabin work in a hot minute, though. One thing I've learned over the years: If somebody else doesn't want it, it's probably garbage. I've seen hundreds of boats come and go and I've practically never seen a boat worth saving end up in the landfill. The guys that bust 'em up know their value down to the last screw and rivet. The classics never are destroyed unless they are so far gone restoration isn't a viable option. As everybody knows, aside from the historical value of a few noteworthy vessels, it's nearly always cheaper and faster to build a new boat to the same lines than it is to restore an old worn out one.

fireball
06-24-2009, 01:34 AM
ROTFLMAO!

Some fella had a lot of fun "building his dream boat" before he shuffled off this orb and what you are looking at is a dead guy's dream.

Yes... for a grand (and at that price, tomorrow they'll give it away for nothing just to get it out of there), you'd probably make three or four times that, maybe a lot more, scrapping her out. The big money is in the engines. Beyond that, while there are things worth keeping like the portlights, it's mostly all marine flea market material. Forget the crap like the potmetal bulkhead lights from Home Depot he's got all over the place.

I'd bet anything that you'll find the boat has major issues. It's just sat too long. It is obvious that the first guy who started her knew what he was doing. The next guy, who probably was succeptible to the same seductive visions you are now having, didn't know what he was doing. You can tell the difference between who built what when you look at the cabin works. Pretty lubberly cabin side planking and the knobby "turned" 1970's lumberyard posts? Puleeze! He may have been a passible carpenter, but he was no boatbuilder. (Which means things aren't likely to have lasted.) Consider this... how much do you think he knew about what he was doing to end up putting the whole damn ass end of the boat in a ditch full of water so he could "test the engines." WTF what he smokin'? Did it ever occur to him to simply attach a garden hose to his raw water intake?

I've seen a lot of boats like this one cut up and sent to the landfill. The mechanicals look worth saving, yes, but the rest of it is poorly executed in large measure and this is a very big boat that is going to be very expensive to own. I don't know where you are, but considering West Coast prices, you can figure six to eight hundred a month just to tie her up legally.

Oh, and by the way... make sure you get the registration or documentation papers transferred correctly. The LAST thing you ever want to own is a boat that size you can't register without paying more in penalties than the damn thing is worth.

But... like the man said... it's a "free elephant" and if running a circus is what you want to do, you may as well start with the elephant.

I have personally seen the interior and it is far better than passible. When it comes to cabinetry and interior woodwork I know the difference between a hack and good carpentry. He did not put it in a ditch to test the motors He made a pond in a gravel pit to see if the boat would float after all it had been sitting for 52 years before he put it in the water and the planking was new and it was his first time planking a boat and the designers first attempt at designing a boat. He wanted to be sure it would float straight and that it swelled up properly. What is poorly executed? If you had bothered to read the whole thread before posting you would know where I was at and exactly what the cost of a slip is. The boat has never been registered she has never been completed she came close in 1992 but has never seen water other than the gravel pit. It is not a matter of he does not want the boat but that he is no longer able to do the work himself and no longer has a place to keep it. This boat is definately not old and worn out it is old but is not worn due to the fact that it has never been used.

C. Ross
06-24-2009, 07:52 AM
Fireball, the best advice you're getting here is to have a survey by an experienced wooden boat surveyor. It will be the best $500 - $1000 you ever spend -- if this boat is bad he'll tell you before you get in too far, and if the boat is good you can proceed with your adventure with confidence and a plan!

Do it, really.

outofthenorm
06-24-2009, 08:38 AM
Fireball, IMHO, in your situation, there is almost no risk here that isn't manageable. You have a place to put the boat with no on-going storage cost, it only has to be moved a short distance, it's well equipped, and you apparently have fallen under its spell. The jury is out on whether the hull is sound and well built, but the gear alone is worth much much more than the price.

To be honest with you, if spending a few grand on spec to buy it and get it home is too much for you, then you should walk away anyway. The costs will mount to very high levels over time, even if it's in good nick already. Remember that every hose, every gasket, every electrical connection and every bit of wire will probably have to be replaced before you're done - and that's just the basics.

If you have the wherewithal and the nerve, go for it. If not, then walk away.

- Norm

BTW, I agree that the squeeze out from the seams is Slickseam (green, waxy, sticky and flexible - google it) and nothing to be worried about. It's supposed to squeeze out.

Lew Barrett
06-24-2009, 11:45 AM
I surmise from my own responses to inquiries like these that after a period of years on the forum, and having many times warned people of the pitfalls inherent in large projects, that there comes a time when plain speaking people don't couch their words anymore. Here's the deal, and the information I convey is nothing new.

You can in theory recover anything with a name plate; it's really just a question of how much you are willing to invest in time, materials and money. Utility against cost is another question entirely.

It is impossible to accurately assess the vessel from this vantage point, and thus anyone's comments are really just a best guess based on experience and the information you provide, coupled with the accuracy of your portrayal. I'm not wild about the lines of this boat or the design, even though I love pre-war bridgedecks, but that can be chalked up to personal taste. Clearly, I don't have to see my dreamboat in this for it to be yours. What I do have my doubts about is the actual ability of the vessel to go to sea with it's current structure after so long on the ground.

Therefore, given your determination and dogged defense of the boat along with your self admitted newbie status, the only sensible course before investing anymore money is to get the boat professionally surveyed. Do not doubt that you will be into this thing for six figures (probably multiples) before you are through, coupled with years of your own intense labor. Have you researched the market to see what's available for say $100K these days?

Get a real pro to look at her and tell you the skinny before you start making plans for your launch. And, if you get a good surveyor, listen to him. Just the cosmetics for a boat like this can set you back tens of thousands even if you do much of it yourself.

There's a lot of talk here about how people have built their boats out of shipping skids and staples for $150. But that won't be your story. Even a good boat with age on her will be an ongoing handful, guaranteed. Your story may be one in a million, but to work out well it will have to be. Do you feel lucky today? Get that professional assessment before moving forward.

Bob Cleek
06-24-2009, 12:35 PM
I have personally seen the interior and it is far better than passible. When it comes to cabinetry and interior woodwork I know the difference between a hack and good carpentry. He did not put it in a ditch to test the motors He made a pond in a gravel pit to see if the boat would float after all it had been sitting for 52 years before he put it in the water and the planking was new and it was his first time planking a boat and the designers first attempt at designing a boat. He wanted to be sure it would float straight and that it swelled up properly. What is poorly executed? If you had bothered to read the whole thread before posting you would know where I was at and exactly what the cost of a slip is. The boat has never been registered she has never been completed she came close in 1992 but has never seen water other than the gravel pit. It is not a matter of he does not want the boat but that he is no longer able to do the work himself and no longer has a place to keep it. This boat is definately not old and worn out it is old but is not worn due to the fact that it has never been used.

Fireball, you ended your opening post: "I dont know much about wood boats but I am hoping to learn, so any help would be greatly appreciated."

What's "poorly executed?" The whole fooking thing is poorly executed. Designed by somebody with no experience at all, let alone a 50' vessel. Built by somebody who obviously had no BOATBUILDING experience. (Nice house cabinetry is not anything near the same as adequate boat construction.) This boat is "worn out" not because it has been used, but precisely because it is seventy years old and has never been used. In a hundred ways, the pictures you posted inform a trained eye that the people who built her were utterly inexperienced when it came to the requirements of a vessel that size. And, she's UGLY. (Beginning with the oversized portlights, the horizontally planked after cabin bulkhead and the idiotic little "headlights" in the bow, and running on downhill from there.)

People here took the time to offer you help, some gently and some not so gently, advised you to take off your rose colored glasses and walk away from this "wet dream." Obviously, you don't "appreciate" those honest responses.

Go to the search function in this forum and read the threads on "Raw Faith." If after that you are still determined to wrap your arms around this tar baby, then, by all means, go for it! Do be sure to keep us posted on your adventures.
We all learn for each other's mistakes.

2MeterTroll
06-24-2009, 01:09 PM
the darn power plants are worth the 2 grand it will cost to buy the bloody boat and move it. just the parts that you can see looking in the bleeding engine room. buy the bloody boat move it have it surveyed and if its to big a job part it out pull the planks and build a house.

its almost a big enough boat to be a boat; pace it off 50' is about right for a boat you might do something with. its not that big. IMO about right for a live aboard cruiser. but then ive lived and worked on big boats for most my life, i find the dingy a bit cramped.

Gary E
06-24-2009, 01:17 PM
Hey Cleek
You got a lot of nerve... sugest you keep your half@ssed comments to yourself and go back the the fugley sailboat you hoyteetoytee types call good looking. They'r FUGLY to a lot of practical people.

This boat may not be to your liking or to your required use, but it will be to someone.

If it were mine, I'd probably cut off that rear cabin and make at least a 14 ft back deck for fishing and replace those little Diesels with a pair of Detroit 6-71's so as to get to the fishing grounds faster...

Probably sell those little diesels to some sailboat guy that would be happy to get them for 4 grand each.

pcford
06-24-2009, 01:25 PM
Hey Cleek
You got a lot of nerve... sugest you keep your half@ssed comments to yourself and go back the the fugley sailboat you hoyteetoytee types call good looking. They'r FUGLY to a lot of practical people.



Goodness, Gary E, you certainly are an excitable boy!

Bob Cleek
06-24-2009, 03:12 PM
Hey Cleek
You got a lot of nerve... sugest you keep your half@ssed comments to yourself and go back the the fugley sailboat you hoyteetoytee types call good looking. They'r FUGLY to a lot of practical people.

This boat may not be to your liking or to your required use, but it will be to someone.

If it were mine, I'd probably cut off that rear cabin and make at least a 14 ft back deck for fishing and replace those little Diesels with a pair of Detroit 6-71's so as to get to the fishing grounds faster...

Probably sell those little diesels to some sailboat guy that would be happy to get them for 4 grand each.

I see we agree completely that the engines are of significant value, IF you don't mind the time and effort to get them out of there and market 'em.

If it floats, and it probably will with enough goop slapped on her, it would indeed make a passable liveaboard for a homeless family or two, if a suitable berth with the required sewage and other utility connections could be found at a price they could afford. There are lots of boats like this employed by "practical people" for those purposes in this economy.

Beyond that, I'm completely comfortable with my assessment...

Take a 'lude, Dude!

BDysart
06-24-2009, 03:55 PM
A no-brainer. If you have ANY resources and desire whatsoever, this looks like a true find. As far as not having any experience, I had virtually none two years ago when I bought a 50 year old 42-foot Chris. Now I'm getting my belly full. It's complicated but it isn't rocket science. Pay attention and you can learn what you need to learn, making lots of mistakes along the way. From my experience, make a really good estimate of the maximum time and money any piece of the project willl take and then expect it to take at least double of both.
On that score, hire a mover and bring it home. Why screw around with such a good deal and such a beauty and you'll have much more time to work on it when it's outside your door - and you'll need plenty of time.
Good luck!

seven up
06-24-2009, 04:26 PM
ROTFLMAO!

Some fella had a lot of fun "building his dream boat" before he shuffled off this orb and what you are looking at is a dead guy's dream.

Yes... for a grand (and at that price, tomorrow they'll give it away for nothing just to get it out of there), you'd probably make three or four times that, maybe a lot more, scrapping her out. The big money is in the engines. Beyond that, while there are things worth keeping like the portlights, it's mostly all marine flea market material. Forget the crap like the potmetal bulkhead lights from Home Depot he's got all over the place.

I'd bet anything that you'll find the boat has major issues. It's just sat too long. It is obvious that the first guy who started her knew what he was doing. The next guy, who probably was succeptible to the same seductive visions you are now having, didn't know what he was doing. You can tell the difference between who built what when you look at the cabin works. Pretty lubberly cabin side planking and the knobby "turned" 1970's lumberyard posts? Puleeze! He may have been a passible carpenter, but he was no boatbuilder. (Which means things aren't likely to have lasted.) Consider this... how much do you think he knew about what he was doing to end up putting the whole damn ass end of the boat in a ditch full of water so he could "test the engines." WTF what he smokin'? Did it ever occur to him to simply attach a garden hose to his raw water intake?

I've seen a lot of boats like this one cut up and sent to the landfill. The mechanicals look worth saving, yes, but the rest of it is poorly executed in large measure and this is a very big boat that is going to be very expensive to own. I don't know where you are, but considering West Coast prices, you can figure six to eight hundred a month just to tie her up legally.

Oh, and by the way... make sure you get the registration or documentation papers transferred correctly. The LAST thing you ever want to own is a boat that size you can't register without paying more in penalties than the damn thing is worth.

But... like the man said... it's a "free elephant" and if running a circus is what you want to do, you may as well start with the elephant.




This clown has been living with too many illegal aliens. Someone please free this poor soul from his misery.

2MeterTroll
06-24-2009, 04:41 PM
he's just happy he gets to hide behind his sycophants here in electronic land. pretty sure IRW he be heading home with his teeth in his hat.

happy he's on my ignore list. the only time i have to read him is when someone quotes him.

seven up
06-24-2009, 04:45 PM
I was enjoying this thread until he showed up with his endless diatribe. I just hope Fireball continues to update us.

fireball
06-24-2009, 04:53 PM
I have contacted a couple of local marinas and so far out of the ones that have replied no one can move anything more than 45' long, but I just found a company out of Chicago in Lakeland Boating magazine that says they can move a 50' boat so I am going to try them.

jackster
06-24-2009, 05:07 PM
Fireball.
Congratulations, if I were close, I would love to attend the moving and have a lookaround. Please, keep us posted and, again, good luck.

Gary E
06-24-2009, 05:23 PM
I have contacted a couple of local marinas and so far out of the ones that have replied no one can move anything more than 45' long, but I just found a company out of Chicago in Lakeland Boating magazine that says they can move a 50' boat so I am going to try them.

If they cant, I'd contact a couple of Rigging Companies in Chicago, they will know how and have big equipment. Even house movers will have the skills after all a boat is not much more than a house with a less than flat bottom..

kylos
06-24-2009, 05:34 PM
Hello.

There is no wooden boat that can't be fixed.
If this is the right boat for you wheather you have enough time and money is all that matters.
I recently bought a large boat to restore and have learnt alot. There is nothing you cant do if you put your mind to it but if you are procrastinating on spending a few thousand dollars on a survey and safe transportation. I recomend you get somthing smaller. I know it might be hard to walk away but you may be thankfull oneday.

Good luck whatever you do!

pcford
06-25-2009, 01:16 AM
Not one of those advocating the acquisition of this vessel have noted that it appears to have a batten-seam bottom. (Planks are square edged and the seam is backed with a batten.) The battens hinder limbering of water. Batten seam bottoms are notorious for rotting out.

pcford
06-25-2009, 01:19 AM
If they cant, I'd contact a couple of Rigging Companies in Chicago, they will know how and have big equipment. Even house movers will have the skills after all a boat is not much more than a house with a less than flat bottom..

Uh, does a boat look much like a house to you? Boat movers have amazing skill in maneuvering and setting up a boat. A house mover would have none of this.

Yeadon
06-25-2009, 01:35 AM
So ... you've heard pretty much the entire spectrum of opinions, from warmly encouraging to outright crass. The sensible middle ground holds that you should get a surveyor to crawl around that boat before you take it under your wing. Do this, seriously, before you move that boat.

Also, I've been wondering if the fellow who built it has the plans. Can we see a lines drawing for this boat?

Incidentally, the elephant analogy on page one of this thread ... best I've heard in a while. Loved it.

Larks
06-25-2009, 02:35 AM
Not one of those advocating the acquisition of this vessel have noted that it appears to have a batten-seam bottom. (Planks are square edged and the seam is backed with a batten.) The battens hinder limbering of water. Batten seam bottoms are notorious for rotting out.

PC, how do you know this? I don't see any photos of the interior framing here, have you seen other pics' that we can't see?

kylos
06-25-2009, 03:19 AM
He can tell by the amount of plugs situated along the top and bottom of the lower planks, indicating that unless there is a frame situated every 3" or so (very unlikley) the screws behind those plugs are screwed into a battern.
If this boat has been kept under cover for as long as they say I dont see any reason why the planks should be rotted out though.

However, the first thing I noticed in the first picture of this boat is the large crack running through 2 planks just in front of the first port hole and a small crack located behind it. I would bet that these are signs of water ingreess. water has entered the vessel on the weather side through the deck and has probably rotted a couple of deck beams and then transfered in to the planks.
It would only take gravity to pull that water in to the bilge from there and onto those seam batterns.

Lew Barrett
06-25-2009, 10:49 AM
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0800.jpg

Whle on the topic of construction quality and style, what is it in this planking that breaks the rules of good build and what you wouldn't expect to see in a new boat?

pcford
06-25-2009, 10:51 AM
Whle on the topic of construction quality and style, what is it in this planking that breaks the rules of good build and what you wouldn't expect to see in a new boat?

Bad butt staggers.

Brian Palmer
06-25-2009, 10:52 AM
Plank butts are too close together.

Is it possible the bottom is double planked?

Brian

pcford
06-25-2009, 10:56 AM
Plank butts are too close together.

Is it possible the bottom is double planked?

Brian

It is possible that is batten seam and double planked with thinner planking at 45 degrees...I have seen that. But the problem with the batten would be the same.

I doubt if the hull is double planked with fore and aft planking.

Lew Barrett
06-25-2009, 11:11 AM
Indeed, and obvious to anybody who has a bit of experience in such matters. Thank you gents. In making repairs, it's sometimes difficult to get perfect butt staggers, but in first build, it should be a paramount consideration when the planking is laid out.

What other practice might be broken here? There is an issue of fundamental quality that should be addressed by a pro, either confirming good practice or pointing out mistakes in basic approach.

By the way, the lines of fasteners running through the middle of some of the planks is strange. And just what sort of fasteners have been used? These and others are questions suggested by the doubters.

Brian Palmer
06-25-2009, 12:00 PM
Is it a problem that the fasteners are arranged in a straight line in the centers of the frames? Should they be staggered fore and aft (assuming that the frames are thick enough) so that the fasteners don't encourage splitting the frames?

Brian

peter radclyffe
06-25-2009, 12:03 PM
Indeed, and obvious to anybody who has a bit of experience in such matters. Thank you gents. In making repairs, it's sometimes difficult to get perfect butt staggers, but in first build, it should be a paramount consideration when the planking is laid out.

What other practice might be broken here? There is an issue of fundamental quality that should be addressed by a pro, either confirming good practice or pointing out mistakes in basic approach.

By the way, the lines of fasteners running through the middle of some of the planks is strange. And just what sort of fasteners have been used? These and others are questions suggested by the doubters.
some screws may be too near the plank edge

pcford
06-25-2009, 12:26 PM
What other practice might be broken here? There is an issue of fundamental quality that should be addressed by a pro, either confirming good practice or pointing out mistakes in basic approach.



The fasteners on the frames seem rather, um, laissez-faire.

seven up
06-27-2009, 10:56 PM
I would guess the bottom is doubled at the turn with the topsides; only because other photos give an indication that the construction is robust. But then if all this is fastened using improper methods, well, trouble lurks.

Moving this boat out into an unprotected space will present another host of difficulties. There may be many surfaces that are yet unfinished.

Maybe fireball can give us more close-ups.

AlanL
06-28-2009, 12:18 AM
That's a real find :) It's an absolute snapshot from the past with a lot of the design elements that people around here love about old boats, but it's new (sort of).

Comments about cost are realistic. But for a grand, frankly you'd be crazy not to take it.

As others have said. Do the work at home. It's a darn sight easier and cheaper. Think about it, you are going to have to build a shelter for it anywhere you put it but you have already said there's room by the barn.

As for moving it. If it's just for a mile, and if you are in the country (sounds like you are) I'd find someone with a big John Deere tractor or Cat Bulldozer and pull it with that. You don't need to waste time and money on fancy trailer brakes and such since the trailer is only ever going to be used on the road once. The weight of the tractor unit and its engine brake will be enough to stop it from gaining forward momentum.

If when you come to launch the trailer is well past its ability to move on the road then hire a truck and trailer, and a crane to lift it. Coupla hundred bucks and you'll be by the water's edge. Compare that with the cost of installing air brakes on an already un-road-worthy trailer.

Alan

Timex
06-28-2009, 11:14 AM
They then dug a pond and placed the boat in it and let it float for almost exactly 2 months in the summer of 1992
Cool, so about 17yrs ago, the boat was floated.


The boat is now sitting on a homemade trailer
3 Axles, 10 Tires.

Tires are inflated, do not look like it's been sitting on flats for 10yrs.

Also, middle axle, the pots are plumbed for air.
So it does have air brakes.
May need some-one to sort them out, but they are so-so-so simple and cheap to get working.
I would only do one axle set, KISS!!!

The Top-Side photo, showing all the bits-ladders-hardware, covered in plastic, this is a BIG PLUS, you have a pile of cash being handed to you with the boat.

Plans, if the have a copy, great.
If not, you'll be like some of the rest of us out here.
Ask him what the boat it was based on.


The boat was started in 1940 in the guyís backyard
Who ever laid the keel on this, didnít just do this, because he had an EPIPHANY, while drinking his morning coffee!!!
He would have been 20 something, maybe using a cruiser belonging to somebody he knew, as a base model? He had to have access to the right tools & materials, none of which are cheap by 1940-50ís standards.
And he may have been interrupted with 2 wars, along with a family along the way.

At 20tons, you have allot of heavy timber in it.
And all that timber is old growth!

My 1955, 53ft, Chris Craft, Constellation, Triple Screw, tipped the truck scale at 29,700.lbs

You 20tons @ 2000lbs, means 40,000.lbs.

I would pull the Rudders, Props & Shafts, to eliminate any problems during the transport. Tag them P & S.

I would be getting detailed photos of the inside of the hull, under the deck access panels, inside the transom area, anyplace I could access the bilge, and do a ms-word format, with all photos and written history, to e-mail out to all recommended surveyors, of WOOD BOATS.


The more info, you give them ahead of time, the more serious they will be, and curiously interested.

I would write a As Simple As Possible, one page flyer, and start looking for a guy nearby with a tractor, looking for a handful of green.

I would also get a guy to weld a hitch ball to add a Tow Dolly, behind the last axle.

Once youíre out on the road, hook-up the tow dolly, and support the stern with a set of boat jacks.

Youíre not going fast, or far, have lots of friends walking with you, as you keep a check on everything.

Iím going to go high on the pricing.
400 A guy to sort out the Air Brakes.
400 Guy to weld some scrap up for a tow ball mount.
120 Tow Dolly $40 @ day X 3 days.
400 Tractor pull.
400 Beer and Barbecue for friends upon arrival.
$1720.

Now take $2000. and put it against the quote for have it rigged and transported, professionally.

Once you decide which way, do it.

3k or less, I would pay to have it done, more than that I would do my-self.

The more YOU do, the less it will cost you.
Go visit a local welder, show some photos and have him give you a sketch and list of SCRAP STEEL he would like to use, Take his drawing, and get all the materials, lay it out, for the welder to roll in, weld up and roll out?

Then again, I would asking all the local farmers, most of them have their own equipment, and weld it all up my-self.

Take the 4-air pots, off and check them my-self, and get 2 of them working, or go exchange the ones that donít work.
I would only do one axle set, KISS!!!
Keep It Stupid Simple!

Set up the brakes to work off a gas powered roofers compressor, and use a ball valve to operate them as you're walking alongside.

Again, most farms have these.

Tow Dolly, is what it is. Uhaul (http://www.uhaul.com/towing)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/th_towing_dolly.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/?action=view&current=towing_dolly.jpg)

Tractor? I would find the right guy on a farm nearby, and pay him $1000. to do all of the above with me acting as his helper, and be his GO-FOR.

Once you get home, you will need to get a canopy over it.
Fear not the water from below, but that which decends from Above!

Ok, enough of that!

Bottom line, this is a once in a lifetime find, if you have any desire to do this, and donít, you will regret this for a Very Long Time.

Allot of running around, in-between watch these movies.

The Astronaut Farmer (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0469263)
Field of Dreams (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097351)
Evan Almighty (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0413099)

And add Cary Grant in for good measure.
Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040613)


I hate to say it, but I have to addÖ..
Once you have it, if you loose your passion, remember, E-Bay & Time, are your friend,

Everything thing that makes up that boat, has a value.

Most of us, not all! Who take on a 50yr-plus wood boat, wind up with allot more on our hands to do, than your looking at!

Remember:
That the ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic was built
by professionals.:D:D:D


Thanks
Tim

P.S.

I would love to know if she is double planked on the hull!

Timex
06-28-2009, 12:59 PM
I'm adding this recent BARN FIND, for SHATS & GIGGLES!!!:D

Just sold for 25k, and indeed, though it sat in a barn for 25yrs, it will need a total going through, from top to bottom.

Remember it's already SOLD, this is not an add!!

As Reported Here:
WoodyBoater (http://woodyboats.blogspot.com/2009/06/mitch-lapointe-hands-down-barn-find.html)

1953 35 ' Chris Craft Commander Barn Find!
It is getting harder to find nice cruisers, so I was excited to find this one tucked away in an old building in Milwaukee, where it had been sitting for about 25 years. It was resting on a shipping cradle, which was mounted on a strange-looking trailer with 10 flat tires.:rolleyes: Strange Trailer- 10 Tires, I've heard that before!!!:D


Click Here to see large pics of THIS Boat (http://www.classicboat.com/antique-boats-35-commander-24h.htm)
Chris Craft 1953 35' Commander
Good unrestored condition. Original upholstery and original factory finish on most of the boat.
The sofa converts to bunk beds and the dinette converts to another bed. The galley features a fridge that operates on shore-power and a propane stove.
Note the photo of the mahogany box that holds the propane tank. Modern head, factory-installed binnacle (compass), factory-installed auto-pilot and original instruments.
Twin "M" 130 hp engines turn over by hand. I have not tried starting the engines, as there are no batteries in the boat and the tank has old gas in it. New trailer included. $23,500.

Anonymous said....


Lots of people knew of the boat. Problem is it was a small tree in a big forest.

When you walked in to the barn you were attracted to one of the large triples or the 38' Chris-Craft Commuter or the Robinson commuter or maybe the bulldozer with the Packard engine.

It all belonged to Brian WIlburn. Brian had collected boats all his life. Years ago he would run ads with half-dozen triples trying to sell some and keep some. He even had a 26' Continental twin.

Someone dumped it in his yard on April fools day.
The commander was the ugly duckling.

It sat unwanted as everything else was sold off.
Unfortunately Brian Passed away a couple weeks ago. I'm pretty sure the Commander was free or close to it just to empty the building


Thanks
Tim H.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/th_Classic_Boat_barn_Find.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/?action=view&current=Classic_Boat_barn_Find.jpg)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/th_35-commander-24h-001-9in.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/?action=view&current=35-commander-24h-001-9in.jpg)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/th_35-commander-24h-005-9.jpg (http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/?action=view&current=35-commander-24h-005-9.jpg)

pcford
06-28-2009, 01:12 PM
Timex, judging from your exuberant postings on this thread, a nice cold shower might be in order for you.

There is a strong likelihood that the boat may have servious problems. This has been attested to by serious owners and professionals.

As always, a prospective owner needs to inform himself as well as possible. A inspection or survey by a competent professional should be done.

Sometimes even a free boat is too expensive.

Timex
06-28-2009, 01:19 PM
Yep, I'm glad to see we are in total agreement.

As I said in the post..

I would be getting detailed photos of the inside of the hull, under the deck access panels, inside the transom area, anyplace I could access the bilge, and do a ms-word format, with all photos and written history, to e-mail out to all recommended surveyors, of WOOD BOATS.

The more info, you give them ahead of time, the more serious they will be, and curiously interested.




I absolutely advocate getting the survey in hand, before anything is carried out, but if he goes ahead, he needs to have a plan, and move on it.

If the owners are trying to empty the property.

PCFORD

Timex, judging from your exuberant postings on this thread, a nice cold shower might be in order for you.


I will when I get back in, after 2-weeks of rain non-stop, I'm enjoying a nice cold cervesa!!!:D

Thanks
Tim.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s80/timex_timex/bronze/image.jpg

K2Racing
06-28-2009, 02:34 PM
WHHHHAAAATTTTTTT! Nice to have the sun out isn't it!!! If only I can have some actual time in the H20!

Timex
06-28-2009, 06:14 PM
Hey, K2R-Joe, it was great talking to you today!!!!
I know your on the North Shore & I'm on the South Side, but the weather has been absolutly lousy!!!! The last 3-weeks.

I went out yesterday, stopped at Fire Island, and anchored overnight, in the Great South Bay.

Thank God for the Bad Days, we need them to enjoy our Good Days!!!

I'll let you know about Egg H, as soon as I hear from John @ SeaTow.

TIm H.

K2Racing
06-28-2009, 06:19 PM
Rock on Tim! Can't wait to join you on the waterways soon!

Timex
06-28-2009, 07:47 PM
Thanks Joe, I'm picking up a lady friend and I'm dropping anchor in the bay, two nights in a row.
Iím getting spoiled!

Now that I have a few minutes, and I've re-read that post, where I was so exuberant, I have to say, I stand by everything I threw in there.

Barn finds today, are rare, but do indeed happen.
I don't think any of the advice I gave, was that off kilter.

Is it just me, or am I being a wanker?
Please be honest, I would like to know.

He could opt, to do nothing, and bring a bag of marshmallowís to the party.

Tim

Adding...............

Today, everybody needs an honest dollar.

Just an example:
I don't mind paying, $100 @ Hour for a Survey.
But 4-hours, travel time, and an expectation to come close to a guesstimate, does not sound un-reasonable.

Why would I need to have everybody, who's coming at an hourly fee, too come, and spend 2 hours, on my dime, doing looky-loos, ooh's, aah's, pumping hands.
Before they even begin doing the task at hand?


I rather communicate as much as possible, before-hand, spending as much of my time, e-mails, digital photos, phone calls, as possible, bringing people up to speed, on their time, rather than my dime.

And just pay for the hands-on.

I hate wasting peopleís time, with my money.

This is a unique situation, not one even the professionals come across every day.

Tim

Lew Barrett
06-28-2009, 08:31 PM
[COLOR=black][SIZE=3]This is a unique situation, not one even the professionals come across every day.

Tim

Not so. Fixers are vin ordinaire. Great boats are the rare finds.

The CC listed in the ad can be duplicated on this coast quite easily particularly if you are not stuck on any particular model. Connies in that size range are particularly common. The situation in other locales may be different, but in these parts old boats, particularly CCs with unrestored original power (in need) go begging. BTW, I'd bet that propane locker in the cockpit is illegal; I don't see how it could vent properly given the location.

Barn finds of rare runabouts and special models may be another story. Barn find condition CCs, especially mid vintage cruisers, are usually hard to sell. The vendor was fortunate to get his price.

The Kay Dee II sold last week for $24,500. Ready to go, 36 feet, Diesel power, 20 Kts top, 7 Kts at 1 GPH. Compare to the CC for 23,000.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d10/Bridgedeck/betty176.jpg[/QUOTE]

Now that was a screaming deal.

Timex
06-28-2009, 09:17 PM
I would take that over the CC in a heartbeat!!!

After the survey!

Out here. with the march of urban development, it is getting tougher, to come across a cruiser, barn find.

Smaller run-abouts, still abound.

But thats progress.

Tim

Lew Barrett
06-28-2009, 10:08 PM
This is a boat that only needs a survey for the insurance company. The new buyer has some fancy ideas, though. If the former owners knew this was going to happen, I bet they wouldn't have sold her to this guy. Well, you have to be quick with good deals. The dogs usually just hang around. I was pretty shocked to see this today, myself.

I should'a bought her myself, but I need another boat like a....... (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1925-Classic-Yacht-Wood-Boat-Mahogany-and-Teak-_W0QQitemZ190317400814QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2009062 7?IMSfp=TL0906271410002r13915)

will tracey
06-28-2009, 10:22 PM
Borderline criminal, that's all I can say.

Lew Barrett
06-28-2009, 10:31 PM
I felt anger/dismay well up when I saw it.

Nanoose
06-28-2009, 11:29 PM
What, Lew? I'm confused...
Kay Dee sold for 24,500, but ebay says buy now for 249,000, and the sale doesn't end until July 6...
What's going on here?

Lew Barrett
06-28-2009, 11:55 PM
New owner must have listed it on Ebay the day after he bought it, no intention of keeping her, just saw a good deal and opportunity for profit. But I speculate, sort of. Not to queer his deal, but the high price for her in the past was about $75K, at which point you still couldn't build her or restore as she sits. I wish them nothing but luck, as usual, but I can feel the burn coming to the former owners' stomach if she actually sold at anywhere near that.
But she is a charming, very well found boat.

She won't fetch that $250K unless she attracts a moron. Not that she isn't worth whatever she costs.

Nanoose
06-29-2009, 01:02 AM
ok...I think I got it now. Owners did sell Kay Dee to new guy/girl for $24,500 (what were they thinking??!!:eek:), and now new guy/girl has listed her on ebay. gottcha. yuck. :(

Yeadon
06-29-2009, 01:12 AM
Kay Dee for $24,500 ... wow. Wow. wow.

Timex
06-29-2009, 09:09 AM
Now it makes sense.

I gotta tell you, after reading your first post, on the Kay Dee II, for 23k, I couldnít sleep last night.

Iím sitting out on the deck, anchored in the bay, smooth like glass, no wind, clear skies, contemplating.
Iím kept looking around my boat, adding up in my head like a register tape, everything Iíve already spent money on.
Then thinking, the cost, of some of the other projects I have coming up, not small or cheap.

Just to have an old wood boat, I feel good about.

I will never have one of those boats, that look like a polished jeweled Rolex, unless I pay to have some-one do it for me, or buy one thatís already done.
I never thought the boat buyers market, would be were it is now, but it is, and all I can say is wow.
And I kept saying to my self, why? Why should I buy a boat that needs so much work?
Take 25k, and start looking around for something, somebody else has already been through and sorted out.

But I also thought about, what if I was sitting on the deck of the Kay Dee II, right now?

Down deep I know, I wouldnít do half of the things, I enjoy doing now.
An older boat like that, I would never lay my hands on to work over.
Iím not talking maintenance stuff, Iím talking about having a somebody go over her every year and paying.
Where the boats I get now, my skills, and the work I do, can not bring the boat down, it can only add to what is there. And I get extreme satisfaction, and take pride, in the work I do.

Then thereís the use factor, I could not use a boat like the Kay Dee II, the way I use mine.

I am not at the point, where itís like that restored 34 Ford, that only comes out on Sunday, when thereís no rain, or just for parade events.
I like the 69 E-Type, I can drive it 3-4 days a week, and it has me turning wrenches the other 3-4 days, just to run it again.

I has certainly become a real buyers market out there, thatís for sure.
But I am just not ready, even though the time may be right, to buy boat like the Kay Dee II.

Besides, that would leave me with too much time and money on my hands, and I would probably wind up seeing a psychiatrist instead.

I understand now, what happened with the Kay Dee II, and it absolutely criminal.

But like you pointed out, there are some seriously good buys out there.
It's just, that I would miss the occasional turps & thinners rush, I currently enjoy now.


Tim

Lew Barrett
06-29-2009, 10:59 AM
Not criminal, but tacky. ebay has never seemed that effective for selling this sort of object to me, though. And moving her locally....well, that's going to be hard.

I think keeping a boat that comes to you in really good condition is a lot easier in every way than keeping one that you have to bring along. And learning to paint and varnish isn't that hard. You do a bit of study and start practicing your hand. Do things the right way and don't get too lazy and at some point you become the expert. It's really hard to ruin something by varnishing it unless you lose the profiles. Most mistakes can be rubbed off with a bit of sandpaper a year later. And no varnish job starts out perfect so the difference between an expert and an amateur is how many flaws are visible.

There are, if not an endless supply, at least a passable number of good deals out there, which is why most of us who have owned boats for a few years keep telling people to be patient and not to let their emotions rule their decision process. But if you have succumbed to falling in love with a naughty boat, at least you can find some comfort in knowing that misery loves company. It has happened to everyone. Only those who have trod the path first are quick to warn newcomers of the perils of love's labor lost. Usually the people exhorting others to leap onto a tough project have never actually done one themselves. Those who have some experience in these things almost always recommend caution. Finding a turd in the barnyard really isn't that hard, even if it looks like a rare gem when you first see it, but finding a pearl in an oyster can take a good deal of looking and shucking. I am a bit unclear what the fascination with trying to "polish the turd" is, but I can say that now because I have a fair bit of experience in dealing with my own impatience. Buy in haste, repent at leisure. Do the research, and it's a rewarding and fascinating avocation.

Timex
06-29-2009, 11:42 AM
Buy in haste, repent at leisure.

I never heard that one, thats a keeper for me.

Tim

pcford
06-29-2009, 12:51 PM
And no varnish job starts out perfect so the difference between an expert and an amateur is how many flaws are visible.


Well said Lew; my first perfect boat is still somewhere in the future. As to perfect varnish jobs...prep is most of the job...sanding scratches are the indicators of hurried prep. My goal is to have fewer sanding scratches on a boat than I have fingers. I sometimes achieve that.

Nanoose
06-29-2009, 03:18 PM
Lew - have you any idea why Kay Dee was let go at that price? I'm quite flumoxed....just makes no sense. Any insight?

pcford
06-29-2009, 03:19 PM
Lew - have you any idea why Kay Dee was let go at that price? I'm quite flumoxed....just makes no sense. Any insight?

Well, it's not the best time to sell a boat.

Nanoose
06-29-2009, 03:23 PM
Well, it's not the best time to sell a boat.

well duh....boats are often hard to sell regardless of the market....but 24.5 for Kay Dee? Ridiculous.:(

pcford
06-29-2009, 03:26 PM
well duh....boats are often hard to sell regardless of the market....but 24.5 for Kay Dee? Ridiculous.:(

"Duh" or not...it seems especially hard to sell a boat these days. One supposes that was the reason for the price. Combined with the possible needs of the former owner...of which I am not privy and know nothing.

Nanoose
06-29-2009, 03:49 PM
many thanks, pc.
I was asking Lew as I think he has a connection to the now former owners.

pcford
06-29-2009, 03:54 PM
many thanks, pc.
I was asking Lew as I think he has a connection to the now former owners.

Yes, they are fellow CYA members.

Lew Barrett
06-29-2009, 04:44 PM
Well, first of all Deb, I agree that it was one of the best buys in a smaller classic cruiser I have ever seen. Although, KDII is a small boat even for being a narrow 36 foot classic, and I think any owner who buys her for cruising needs to realize how limited her on board living space actually is. She has had a lot of owners (relatively) over the years because as a cruiser, she's fairly easy to outgrow. As a weekender or commuter, on the other hand, few boats under 40 feet are better adapted to fun boating than she is. I like her every bit as well, and possibly a lot better, than the more popular 38 foot CC commuters of about the same era. IF times were a bit better, and I had the space for such a thing, I'd have scooped her up in a heartbeat. She definitely does provide opportunity for both fun boating and limited cruising coupled with...at the price....financial return.


I think Jodi and Keith wanted to move on. Originally the boat was listed in the mid 40s, then mid 30s. That would be over a period of 6 months plus or minus.
I think (but don't know for sure) that they felt it was better to sell the boat than keep her here and wait for the right buyer to come along and maybe earn the extra 10 or 15K in a depressed market. Every month you wait clicks off another moorage bill, more insurance, etc. Within a range, if she has to go, she has to go. I suppose there are a few ways to look at it, but I never asked them personally "why so cheap?" When Rita goes, somebody will get a great deal no matter what they pay. I will never be able to recover what I have in her, so i'd as soon have a quick, clean deal when the time comes. I doubt they anticipated this approach to the deal but for their blood pressure, if nothing else, I hope an ebay buyer doesn't come along and plop $, 60, 70, 80, or 90K down on her after they took a loss. I think what would frost me is if the boat isn't well cared for before it sells. That being the case, I'd feel cheated. Otherwise, you just have to chalk it up to "c'est la vie." Maybe they are relieved not to have to deal with her.

In any case, and by any standards, she was stolen at under 30K, and would have been fair value at twice the price. Rough times is all I can chalk it up to. A terrific bargain in today's market, I tried to talk a friend into her, but it's just so weird out there, even the bargains seem scary. Let's hope it all turns around and Kay Dee II marks the bottom of the fall from grace :)

Nanoose
06-29-2009, 07:48 PM
Thanks, Lew.

Candyfloss
06-30-2009, 02:11 AM
I like "polish the turd"! Here in N.Z. you can hardly give a boat away.

Larks
06-30-2009, 02:24 AM
Come on guys, talk about a thread hi-jack, you're a bunch of pirates..:D

FIREBALL......WHAT'S THE OUTCOME MATE??? Did you buy it???

Lew Barrett
06-30-2009, 11:01 AM
I like "polish the turd"! Here in N.Z. you can hardly give a boat away.



You can polish a turd, but it ruins your handkerchief.

py
07-01-2009, 12:24 AM
You guys are so funny. If whoever bought the KDII came here asking for advice it would have been all, get a survey, look her over, too narrow, make sure its what you want, no such thing as a bargain and by the time you're all done moaning and naysaying some other bugger would have grabbed her.

pcford
07-01-2009, 12:45 AM
You guys are so funny. If whoever bought the KDII came here asking for advice it would have been all, get a survey, look her over, too narrow, make sure its what you want, no such thing as a bargain and by the time you're all done moaning and naysaying some other bugger would have grabbed her.

Funny. But not really.

The KD can by no stretch by considered a mysterious "project" boat. It is true that an prospective owner should ALWAYS get a survey. But her history here in the region is easily accessible. She has been to every CYA event which I have attended.

In comparison, the original poster's 50ft. cruiser is hardly inspiring. So ease it back down a bit bub.

peter radclyffe
07-01-2009, 01:02 AM
You guys are so funny. If whoever bought the KDII came here asking for advice it would have been all, get a survey, look her over, too narrow, make sure its what you want, no such thing as a bargain and by the time you're all done moaning and naysaying some other bugger would have grabbed her.
yep sometimes we cant see the wood for the trees http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

Lew Barrett
07-01-2009, 11:12 AM
yep sometimes we cant see the wood for the trees http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

Not on this case though Peter. For every really good boat and good deal there are ten questionable buys, at least in this part of the world.

In fact, I can't recall the last time I saw a really fine boat sell for "too much." Few people starting out realize how much effort and money will go into restoring a major (by whatever definition you care to define "major") old boat. On the other hand, a really well found boat will save a person money almost regardless what they pay for it unless they spring for one of the stupid and unrealistic ebay offers that come along from time to time, usually posted by equally unrealistic people. In between, buying a boat in great shape is virtually always the wisest economic decision, since restorations almost never pay out.

So here's the reality: Most old boats are losers. Go in with your eyes open and you will have fun. Kay Dee II breaks the rules (or did) and was one of those rare good deals. I strongly disagree with Py on this one; the wisest course is always to have a second opinion, and as Pat said, the owners of Kay Dee would have had no objection to survey on her and she would have required it for finance and insurance anyway.

My opinion (and it's just that, an opinion) stands: the fifty footer will be a handful, the Chris in this thread will cost some bucks to bring around and be another Chris when finished, and KDII was a steal when she sold last month. She was the rare case.

Lew Barrett
07-01-2009, 11:20 AM
I do want to say "not that there's anything wrong with another Chris." They are excellent boats, frequently good value now as they were when new, and very practical and fun representations of their era. But they are relatively much more common.

peter radclyffe
07-01-2009, 12:34 PM
Not on this case though Peter. For every really good boat and good deal there are ten questionable buys, at least in this part of the world.

In fact, I can't recall the last time I saw a really fine boat sell for "too much." Few people starting out realize how much effort and money will go into restoring a major (by whatever definition you care to define "major") old boat. On the other hand, a really well found boat will save a person money almost regardless what they pay for it unless they spring for one of the stupid and unrealistic ebay offers that come along from time to time, usually posted by equally unrealistic people. In between, buying a boat in great shape is virtually always the wisest economic decision, since restorations almost never pay out.

So here's the reality: Most old boats are losers. Go in with your eyes open and you will have fun. Kay Dee II breaks the rules (or did) and was one of those rare good deals. I strongly disagree with Py on this one; the wisest course is always to have a second opinion, and as Pat said, the owners of Kay Dee would have had no objection to survey on her and she would have required it for finance and insurance anyway.

My opinion (and it's just that, an opinion) stands: the fifty footer will be a handful, the Chris in this thread will cost some bucks to bring around and be another Chris when finished, and KDII was a steal when she sold last month. She was the rare case.
sorry Lew, no offence meant

Lew Barrett
07-01-2009, 02:02 PM
sorry Lew, no offence meant

Not offended at all Peter. Just for clarification. Frequently enough it's impossible to really tell people what course of action to take, and anyway, some folks love a challenge. But advising folks to taking customary precautions when buying a major boat is always wise council, I think. Everybody's circumstances are unique, but in general, buying the wrong 15 foot boat will not be the end of the world. Buying the wrong 40 foot boat can lead to huge disappointment, divorce, bankruptcy; you know, the complete tragedy :D

As an accomplished restorer, you know what I mean! ;)

pcford
07-01-2009, 02:09 PM
Maybe I should not say this since my interests are at stake but:
It is practically impossible to made money having a major restoration done professionally. It is also difficult if not impossible to come out on the positive side doing much of the work yourself.

I have heard of a boatwright who made a living buying boats and fixing them up and selling them. But that is a mighty rare phenomenon; that should tell you something.

The initial step...buying the right boat is the key. And that's the point which has been being made here by Lew and others.

Duncan Gibbs
07-01-2009, 06:00 PM
Another approach has also been suggested here: Why are most just looking at it as 'a boat' when for $1K there's an awesome power plant (2No. IIRC) and a whole pile of fittings and probably a great stack of good timber that can be ripped/resawn/planed/thicknessed and a whole new boat built from and financed off of the back sale of parts from this one.

Just a thought... :rolleyes:

Lew Barrett
07-01-2009, 07:03 PM
Because disposing of the old boat can be considerably more problematic than is being supposed here. And the bigger the boat, the bigger the dump bill. Not saying it can't be made to pay, just saying that dealing with the detritus is not free so it's best to do the math first. It may come to pass that a used motor and some used fittings cost no more in the end, and come without the need to do any demolition. Research required.

seven up
07-01-2009, 09:06 PM
Which should bring us to the conclusion that buying a fiberglass boat is the inteligent choice.

I am guessing that by now fireball and family are standing around the bonfire at this moment of what used to be the $1000.00 fifty foot new boat.

pcford
07-01-2009, 09:08 PM
Which should bring us to the conclusion that buying a fiberglass boat is the inteligent choice.



Absolutely.

Sometimes it's better for both the boat and the person not to have the wooden boat. I've seen it many times.

seven up
07-01-2009, 09:18 PM
Wooden Boat Psychiatrist then. Forget the boat for now. We need to know if you are in the correct mindset first.

Soundman67
07-01-2009, 09:39 PM
Wooden Boat Psychiatrist then. Forget the boat for now. We need to know if you are in the correct mindset first.

No offense but I think that most would agree that if you are buying an old wooden boat your "mindset"or competence should be questioned.
:p

Doug

seven up
07-01-2009, 09:53 PM
You think ???, most would agree??? Hey knock yourself out.

Lew Barrett
07-01-2009, 10:35 PM
I've said my peace except to say that everyone here who has restored a fifty foot boat should post a smilie. Then we'll know who speaks from experience and who is just speaking. A forty foot boat also rates a smilie. Eighteen foot boat, still a grasshopper.

:)

andrewe
07-02-2009, 01:25 PM
Lew, makes me smile.
My father bought an 80ft boat as a retirement project (Morning Star. One of the first twin diesels built in the US) After a couple of health problems, he realised the odds and sold it. Just about broke even.
But that was a well built proven boat. The red flag that jumped up here was that this was a first design. Who builds a 50ft as a first try? Even if you plan to pass on your well polished 'Masterpiece' to the grand kids, it would make sense to pass on some value. This will swallow masses and still be worth zilch. Old boats need provenance.
A

Noah
07-02-2009, 01:41 PM
Does 53' of fiberglass count? 36' of wooden sailboat was a giant project...

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-02-2009, 01:46 PM
Hey, I know Cleek can be rough on newbies, but most of the time he's right.

This old 50 foot boat has been advertised a few times. It has no pedigree, and a clunky build.... and years out of the water. So the motors are okay... who cares... for the money, I would buy something at 50k that I could use right away.... and you'd have your pick of boats. Cleek's right.... firewood.

andrewe
07-02-2009, 01:54 PM
I tend to agree with Cleek a lot of the time,certainly here, except when he is rough on newbies who want to build a little PLYWOOD boat.
A

ripley699
07-03-2009, 03:10 AM
If you love ,,,and i mean LOVE this boat,,,and you have $100,000.00 to spend cash, and you have 3 years with nothing to do,,,you will have a very unique and lovely boat . Probably minus one wife but a very nice boat.
Now I would suggest that you go on line to all the yacht traders and see what you can get for $75,000.00

Ya' might want to buy the boat ,leave it where it is and rip it apart ,save the engines and save whatever wood you can and stack it neatly....
The most expensive boat on earth is a free boat.
just one mans opinion
your mileage may vary

Saltiguy
07-03-2009, 08:43 AM
You guys crack me up. Do you think every boat has to be "perfect" to be enjoyed, or that the boat in question will really require a six-figure treatment?
I remember 2 young guys at my marina years ago who bought a big old boat fixed it up quick and went BOATING.
They didn't speak english and reminded me of the Steve Martin/Dan Akroid "wild and crazy guys" characters. They were always laughing and had a ball working on that boat. The workmanship was dreadful. For decking they actually used 4x8 sheets of woodgrain paneling and glued it to the deck. Trim was pine. Everything got painted up with cheap house paint. They did have good engine skills and had the engines, etc in great shape. All the work was done in about 2 months and after they hit the water, they stayed at that marina for 2 or 3 seasons. They were first to launch and last to pull out. All summer they had lots of friends and slow cruised the area, usually anchoring where they could swim and cook out. They USED the boat!
It's about HAVING FUN!
The negativity on this thread and the ridicule directed at the boat in question is embarrasing. If we don't hear from Fireball again, the reason will be clear, whether he bought the boat or not.

hansp77
07-03-2009, 10:39 AM
Amen Saltiguy.
I do hope we hear from Fireball again, even if just to say he passed on the boat.

Soundman67
07-03-2009, 04:16 PM
Whoops someone took offense, That wasnt the intention. I was poking fun at myself as well.
I lost my first boat after a chain of mistakes and now I have already bought another one and am trying to get it up to Vancouver.
My apologies to all who didnt understand the smiley at the end of my last comment.

Lew Barrett
07-04-2009, 12:15 PM
I am not trying to be mean, and in all honesty, I think most people aren't; though after some time, the answers can start being pretty "rote." Spicing them up at the expense of a new person is probably in pretty poor tatse. I never did much care for hazing new guys, but new guys are, after all, new guys!

Taking a boat at the end of it's days back to utility and beauty can be many things; fun, satisfying, a learning experience, maybe (maybe!) even noble.

Something it will never be is cheap. My take is that when we sense that the point of the post is to suggest what a great deal the target is, or to inquire how cheaply (as opposed to how prudently or efficiently) a suspect vessel can be turned around, that's when the tsk tsking starts. Somebody who shows up and asks specific questions about procedures will get good advise here. Even somebody who arrives and inquires ""what the cost of a renovation on a vessel in thus and such a condition" will also be appraised of the hideous nature of costs in developing a good "picture" (boat) from an old negative, so to speak. But if the combined sense is that the approach and hope is to turn an old vessel around on a limited or no budget by a first time hopeful, the roosters start crowing because it usually can't be done, and frequently results in disaster for all parties concerned, including the boat.

In fact, just moving an old boat a few miles can be a considerable problem and may well require specialized knowledge; never mind the legions of failures that have been witnessed by the assembled here. I think people should knbow what they are getting into. It requires commitment on a large scale to do a big project, and unlike the case with, say house renovation, big boats don't usually pay off. They can for some, but even the pros can lose their shirts if they restore the wrong boat at the wrong time on spec.

While I agree that is it entirely unnecessary to be rude or demeaning, I think a firm shove towards the direction of reality may be the kindest thing to do in a case where the sense is that the question really asks "how cheap can I restore this boat...look how cool...it was virtually free. " The sensible and most astute question should be: "what is the nature of the commitment involved here and how can I best avoid significant disappointment....or worse." And it can never be said too powerfully: while doing a restoration to your standards on a boat you love is one of life's great challenges and adventures, I know few people who have done it that don't wish they'd found the boat restored to begin with.

It's not cruelty....it's reality. Big boats take big budget. Going back to the original subject....the fifty footer here.....it pays to remember that the man who started this boat was a young man who never saw his dream realized. The next guy might...if he's not realistic.....make two people whose dreams never see reality on this project.

If this is the one to do, and the boat the supplicant desires, and if he is suitably informed about the challenges involved, more power to him, good luck and the very people who are suggesting he think it through will also be ones who can be relied on to give advice borne of experience when new challenges are faced on the project. The only thing I think we collectively might consider is how well and how kindly we "donate" the advice. I don't think there's much by negative motivation otherwise being suggested. We all love to see a competent and informed person bring an old boat around, and we all recognize what a significant achievement it is to do so.

Saltiguy
07-04-2009, 06:05 PM
Lew Barrett, your dodging around the point. The point is that there are excuses for bad advice, but no excuses for bad behavior. Sadly, SOME people here on the forum are rude, nasty and have driven off the new people who came here. Just recently, there was the guy in New Jersey with the barn find. He put up with a lot of undeserved crap and wisely left the forum. There are more I can cite but I hope the point is made.
The next time a newbie is treated rudely, I hope the rest of us jump in and make things right. It's embarrasing.

jackster
07-04-2009, 07:35 PM
I have to agree with the point of how nasty and rude too many who post here are. I think it is the residue drifting up from the bilge, my self.
Makes me sad, because I don't see it getting any better in the future.

Lew Barrett
07-04-2009, 11:30 PM
You are right about that, and it's also true that being crotchety has a certain tradition here; I don't think it simply has to do with the bilge. Stuff flares up and down, and certainly, there are some feuds, but this is still quite a valuable section, don't you think?

Neither are spats always started by the nay sayers, . But I can admit to my own form of nay saying. when it comes to major projects. My inclination, even prejudice, is to urge people to look well and truly before they leap.

Meanwhile I have a correction to admit to for the record. Vis a vis Kay Dee II, it turns out the sale I reported never transpired (the details were accurate though) and it's the original; owners who have offered her for sale on ebay.

The bidding is at roughly $50K, has passed the reserve and is still a fair price for her, and you can watch it here:
KDII (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1925-Classic-Yacht-Wood-Boat-Mahogany-and-Teak_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q 7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1205Q7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksid Zp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem2c4fcd12eeQQitemZ19031 7400814QQptZPowerQ5fMotorboats#ht_1566wt_739)

Nanoose
07-04-2009, 11:36 PM
I feel better now. :)

seven up
07-05-2009, 12:25 AM
KD II . That rot bucket isn't worth 10 grand. Better to knock her over for kindling wood.

pcford
07-05-2009, 01:39 AM
KD II . That rot bucket isn't worth 10 grand. Better to knock her over for kindling wood.

? There seems to be a misunderstanding here.

Lew Barrett
07-05-2009, 03:16 AM
I think he's kidding, PC.

fireball
07-05-2009, 10:48 AM
KD II . That rot bucket isn't worth 10 grand. Better to knock her over for kindling wood.

I think he is right it would take at least $30000 to get that boat in the water, might be $500000 because you dont have enough time to work on it.
And, she's UGLY. and poorly executed because it wasn't built by a big name manufaturer. Why would anyone want a wooden boat that might require a little work, just get a fiberglass one and save your self the trouble, besides then you can spend your whole day on the forum claiming your an expert and not offering any actual advice and wind up with 9000+ posts. Since I dont like that style of boat you should probably just take a chainsaw to it and go out and buy a fiberglass boat.

oznabrag
07-05-2009, 11:07 AM
Hey Fireball! Glad you're back!

There sure are a lot of grumpy old men hereabouts. If I were you, I wouldn't pay the slightest attention to any of them. Until they run out of bile and forebodings of doom, that is.

Once you've got the boat where you can work on her, (or some other boat?) these same grumpy old coots will be eager tell you how you can overcome any obstacles to splashing your boat. Hell, half of them may show up for the launching! A fickle and obstreperous and fairly onerous lot, but good fellows in the main.

By the way, your post above is a response to someone who was suggesting breaking up Kay Dee II for kindling, not the 50 footer you have your eye on.

The idea of scrapping Kay Dee II is an obvious joke, intended to razzle all the guys who razzled you!;)

So welcome aboard, but watch out. If you hang around long enough, you may become grumpy yourself!

pcford
07-05-2009, 03:05 PM
There sure are a lot of grumpy old men hereabouts. If I were you, I wouldn't pay the slightest attention to any of them. Until they run out of bile and forebodings of doom, that is.



After 30-some years of doing boat restoration, I can say there are a few things that you do not criticize: A man's choice of woman, boat or dog. (not necessarily in order of importance) If you do you immediately become the jerk, and your advice is ignored and likely derided.

Let's see here...the "grumpy old men" are comprised of Lew Barrett, a very accomplished boat owner who has accomplished a wonderful job on Rita, the Cleekster, who has been around boats for a good long time. And to a certain extent, me.

The advice given has been met with more than a little push-back and snide comments. Cleek and Lou have, between the two of them, been through months of restoration work and the hundreds of thousands of dollars that it can take to do a restoration on a large boat. They aren't telling folks to _not_ buy a large classic boat, they are saying to get the _right_ one. Both Lou and Cleek have classic boats and I believe that are both very attached their respective vessels. The boats are an integral part of their lives. They are not trying to talk anyone out of the joys of classic boat ownership.

People fall in love with boats...and sometimes not wisely. To return to the cautionary note with which I began this post and to extend it...the woman that looks so good with your beer googles on in a tavern at 1:30am, may look entirely different the next day.

"Marry in haste, repent at leisure." And be mindful of those that tell you otherwise.

Lew Barrett
07-05-2009, 03:59 PM
Nobody asked our opinion if they should buy or not. I suppose we get what we paid for when we offer advice about steering clear. I have re-learned some old lessons in this thread about not offering un-asked for advice. I'm still waiting to see more smilies, though.

For the record, I'm not a grumpy old man. Just an old man. There are many grumpier here than me, goddam it!

pcford
07-05-2009, 04:01 PM
Nobody asked our opinion if they should buy or not. I suppose we get what we paid for when we offer advice about steering clear. I have re-learned some old lessons in this thread about not offering un-asked for advice. I'm still waiting to see more smilies, though.



I suspect that those most enthusiastic about this particular boat were those least acquainted with the restoration process on large boats.

oznabrag
07-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Y'all named your own names, and I can just about guarantee that I can be grumpier than either of you.:D

seven up
07-05-2009, 05:19 PM
Judging from the thousands and thousands of posts that some have accumulated in such few short years I cannot fathom how anything could be accomplished beyond the reach of your computer chairs.

I come here for wooden boats and am totally uninterested in your personal lives.

pcford
07-05-2009, 05:24 PM
I come here for wooden boats and am totally uninterested in your personal lives.

Nor I in yours. I will match you and raise you in experience though.

I am interested in newcomers getting good advice from knowledgeable people.

(Is it just me or is there an unusual lot of people who have come on board lately who have little experience yet who are spoiling for a fight? Just wondering)

Lew Barrett
07-05-2009, 06:04 PM
Judging from the thousands and thousands of posts that some have accumulated in such few short years I cannot fathom how anything could be accomplished beyond the reach of your computer chairs.

I come here for wooden boats and am totally uninterested in your personal lives.

Get a grip, man. Despite whatever your initial impressions may be, camaraderie is the basic tone of this place. Your efforts at censorship will go entirely unheeded.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-06-2009, 09:08 AM
You guys crack me up. Do you think every boat has to be "perfect" to be enjoyed, or that the boat in question will really require a six-figure treatment?
I remember 2 young guys at my marina years ago who bought a big old boat fixed it up quick and went BOATING.
They didn't speak english and reminded me of the Steve Martin/Dan Akroid "wild and crazy guys" characters. They were always laughing and had a ball working on that boat. The workmanship was dreadful. For decking they actually used 4x8 sheets of woodgrain paneling and glued it to the deck. Trim was pine. Everything got painted up with cheap house paint. They did have good engine skills and had the engines, etc in great shape. All the work was done in about 2 months and after they hit the water, they stayed at that marina for 2 or 3 seasons. They were first to launch and last to pull out. All summer they had lots of friends and slow cruised the area, usually anchoring where they could swim and cook out. They USED the boat!
It's about HAVING FUN!
The negativity on this thread and the ridicule directed at the boat in question is embarrasing. If we don't hear from Fireball again, the reason will be clear, whether he bought the boat or not.



Yep, there are stories like that. Then there are stories about people who buy old wooden boats, sink a pile of money into their dream get nothing back, never get to use it because they made a bad choice. Worse... buy an old boat, fix it badly because you have no experience, it sinks at the dock, the marina is on the hook because you have no insurance. Worst, .... someone is seriously injured or killed because the boat is dangerously infirm, sinks, blows up or something similiar.

I've seen all of these things over the course of fifty years in boating. I think most people here love boating, and would rather see someone spend their money on something manageable, that they can enjoy right away, or at least in the immediate future. I know that the boat being talked about here is more than I would want to take on, and.... it isn't worth taking on what is required for work.

Saltiguy, I know what you're saying, but when you have as much experience as some of the guys commenting 'negatively' on this post, you might understand what is really being said.;)

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-06-2009, 09:11 AM
For the record, I'm not a grumpy old man. Just an old man. There are many grumpier here than me, goddam it!

Oh come on, you're so modest. You're no Bob Cleek mind you, but you can hold yer own..:D:D

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-06-2009, 09:13 AM
(Is it just me or is there an unusual lot of people who have come on board lately who have little experience yet who are spoiling for a fight? Just wondering)


Yep. and it usually means that the experienced people go away, and let the idiots play expert with one another..

Yeah Yeah, buy that 50 foot rotten piece of **** and spend your life and alllllllllllll your money trying to fix it and sail around the world.. yeah thats it sail around the world. I'm a pirate king... Wheeee.

Oh brother.:rolleyes:

jackster
07-06-2009, 09:41 AM
I think this thread has run it's course here in this section and has qualified to be in the bilge where such attacks are considered normal.
Just my opinion, though.

hansp77
07-06-2009, 10:23 AM
Indeed Jackster- A perfect thread of some of the best and the worst of this place.

Good intentions, no doubt. Doesn't change the fact.

Lew, you are a gentleman, and your posts, even when negative or critical, always read to me as considerate and measured. I see and understand that this takes a lot of work. Thank you.
Bob Cleek's piss and vinegar on this thread makes PC's reliably honest, opinionated and brutal appraisal seem virtually sugar tonged this time around:rolleyes:.
Sure there are experts here, who know a hell of a hell of lot about boats, and without whose input this forum would not be the place it is...
however,
Just try to imagine this from a new members perspective, or someone not yet attuned to idiosyncrasies present. If you can't imagine it, you've been here too long.
In many ways this forum is real social group, characters abound, with some of the most abrasive and confronting people at times, being capable of giving the best advice and sharing the most needed knowledge (I've never found Lew abrasive or confronting, but the other guys mentioned above fit this example quite well).
This takes time to figure out.
I found Bob Cleek's post on this thread to be rude and quite un-called for. If there is an attitude that comes looking for a fight, then it is that attitude right there.

Bob was rude, insensitive at best, whether he was right or not, and being one of the cannons of the WBF, anyone who disses him for it (especially a new or unknown member) opens themselves up for a lot of flack.

Would I want Bob Cleek (or PC) silent or gone from this forum- hell fu***en no I wouldn't!
Like many I appreciate their wealth of knowledge and experience they bring, and even their brutal ungarnished opinion at times.
But sometimes this grumpy old expert thing, lowering themselves to condeming yet another boat, can really get a bit unpleasant- even for those fully acquainted and de-sensitized to it.

If you can't take the time to deal with people with a basic level of care and manners, then regardless of how valuable you think your experience and opinion is, it aint worth much to the recipient (so what is it for then?), and in the end if it drives people away, makes the forum poorer for it too.

IMHO.

peter radclyffe
07-06-2009, 12:34 PM
I think he is right it would take at least $30000 to get that boat in the water, might be $500000 because you dont have enough time to work on it. and poorly executed because it wasn't built by a big name manufaturer. Why would anyone want a wooden boat that might require a little work, just get a fiberglass one and save your self the trouble, besides then you can spend your whole day on the forum claiming your an expert and not offering any actual advice and wind up with 9000+ posts. Since I dont like that style of boat you should probably just take a chainsaw to it and go out and buy a fiberglass boat.
you knew what to do all along, thats the best advice i ever heard
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

pcford
07-06-2009, 01:03 PM
you knew what to do all along, thats the best advice i ever heard
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

Don't know if you are being ironic here...but I will say it anyway.

Fireball was talking sarcastically about the KD, not the "50ft cruiser."

oznabrag
07-06-2009, 03:13 PM
Well said, Hans.

BarnacleGrim
07-06-2009, 04:57 PM
From one wooden boat novice to another:

Always listen to the grumpy old men. They have already made the mistakes that you're going to make.

If you believe your choice is right, stand by it. I don't think I've quite forgiven myself for the last boat I turned down, at least not until I got Nina (and she finally floated). But be very humble when you come back to the grumpy old men for help and sympathy, because you'll need it. And they will be happy to provide it.

CharlieCobra
07-06-2009, 05:28 PM
I didn't listen. Hell, for that matter, I didn't ask until I already had my wooden boat that nobody wanted or cared much for. I'm glad I didn't and still don't (to the naysayer's anyway) because I sailed the crap outta my old boat in all kinds of weather until the engine croaked. Now I'm refitting and repairing a bunch of goofy stuff from years past. When I'm done, she'll be gorgeous again and I will sail the paint off her. Hell, I may even go around because she is PAID for and will do the trip easily. So while there are a ton of folks up here with more knowledge and experience than I'll ever have (with wood boats) it doesn't mean ya have to take everything they say as gospel. Ask your questions, get some answers and chart your own course but don't fault them for having views that may seem contrary to yours. No sense gettin' pissed over something some stranger on the web typed. If'n yer big enough to get into trouble, ya best be big enough to deal with it yerself...

oznabrag
07-06-2009, 05:50 PM
Ya know Mr. Grim, I am a pretty well respected craftsman myself.

I have NEVER treated ANY newbie with ANYWHERE CLOSE to the amount of abuse, disrespect, derision, bile and downright cussedness (be very grateful this is not the Bilge) that these so-called 'leading lights' of wooden boat repair have done to the newbies on this forum REGULARLY and REPEATEDLY.

In fact, there have been several crusty old carpenters who behaved that way toward me in the dim, misty past who VERY MUCH REGRETTED their actions at the time. One of them got to add 'being slammed across the kidneys with a 2X4' to his resume of experience.

I had enough of that sort of BS before I left home, thank you very much, and if you want to act out some sort of elitist oppression fantasy/withholding the sacred information BS, then you'll find out that I don't work with you anymore. If you give me good cause, I'll leave you bleeding and broken on my way out the door.

When some kid, still wet behind the ears, comes to me and asks some ridiculously inane sort of question, I answer him (or her, by the way) with all the accuracy, coherence, and compassion for ignorance I can muster. I do this for two reasons, 1) IT'S THE RIGHT WAY TO ACT!!!! and 2) These are the only kids we got, people! They are the only ones who will EVER continue ANY traditional skill, because they are the ONLY ONES WHO WANT TO.

As far as I am concerned, a couple of these self-professed 'experts' are not fit to scrub my God&^%%$ toilets, much less work on any boat of mine, for the simple reason that they are so wrapped up in being selfish, self-righteous, self-important, self-serving, self-aggrandizing, exclusionary idiots.

Of course, if I showed up with a stack of C-notes, they'd fall all over themselves kissing my backside in an effort to get my business, and call me an idiot behind my back for wanting to save that old rot-bucket.

This shows just exactly how shallow and self involved they are. They won't be, at the least, COURTEOUS to the starry-eyed newbie who is THEIR ONLY HOPE for the continuation of their tradition. They would rather seek to abuse and denigrate and befoul any attempt to gain admission into their precious exclusive club.

Well, I'll tell you something. I can build a spiral staircase and I learned to do so on my own. None of the self-righteous idiots who told me I couldn't EVER did that.

In my opinion, there is at least one boatbuilder in the Northwest US who has acquired the humility of the TRUE artisan, and he has not posted to this thread.

Larks
07-06-2009, 07:05 PM
Meanwhile though Fireball, welcome to the forum mate and keep us informed. Don't be too disheartened by the advice you receive here, it is mostly very much well intentioned and given by guys who know what they are talking about. You may find some cranky old farts amongst the advisers and you'll need to weed out some bullsh*t here and there but I've found that most of the legitimate advice is from people with tremendous experience who have our best interests at heart.

You'll ultimately do what you want to do, I don't think anyone would expect you to let anyone make you do otherwise, but hopefully what you hear here will mean that you do it well informed.

Oh look....way back at post #4....you can't say you weren't warned Fireball:D:D?

Meanwhile though, what's the outcome so far?? Anything happening with the 50 footer, do you still have any interest in it??

oznabrag
07-06-2009, 07:16 PM
Oh look....way back at post #4....you can't say you weren't warned Fireball:D:D?

Meanwhile though, what's the outcome so far?? Anything happening with the 50 footer, do you still have any interest in it??

That is the question, after all.

The curious thing, to me, is that it is clear, above all, that he MUST get a survey, otherwise the commentary is meaningless.

So, how's about it, Fireball? What's the latest?

Larks
07-06-2009, 07:48 PM
That is the question, after all.

The curious thing, to me, is that it is clear, above all, that he MUST get a survey, otherwise the commentary is meaningless.

So, how's about it, Fireball? What's the latest?


Just curious Ozzy, why are you so insistent that he MUST get a survey on a $1000.00 hull that has a couple of thousand dollars worth of kit in it???

oznabrag
07-06-2009, 08:14 PM
Just curious Ozzy, why are you so insistent that he MUST get a survey on a $1000.00 hull that has a couple of thousand dollars worth of kit in it???

Well I'm not really. If I'm on about something it's about being kind to the dewy-eyed children.

If Fireball wants to buy it and scrap it, or if he just wants to go on a drunken rampage and burn it in his own yard, that's fine with me. It's his love affair, not mine.

The 'grumpy old men' are perfectly correct when they say to 'get a survey', given that this chap has expressed that his dream is to motor up the lake in it, unless I wholly misunderstood, but there was an element of nastiness...

Otherwise you must consider that Fireball's personality may not relate to 'stuff' in such a way that he sees the whole as the sum of it's parts. Some people can buy old boats and bring them home and give them new life and send them on the way, (or wreck them for the engines, fittings, etc. and have a bonfire for Christmas :D) and some people's yards just fill up with old boats.

From what I gathered, Fireball ain't skeered. He seems like a fairly successful, ambitious young man, with a place with a barn and a wife who'll let him even consider buying a fifty-foot powerboat for $1, much less $1,000!

He may have love in his eyes, but he ain't no dumbass. If you want one of those, look at this:http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99253. :p

Larks
07-06-2009, 08:49 PM
Yes, I found that thread quite interesting. I am just a bit wary and concerned that every time someone posts about considering buying a boat here the standard response is "get a survey" when quite often the cost and value of doing so for the situation is questionable.

In the case of this boat, if I was looking at her, I would be far more interested in getting a boat builder to go through her with me and couple of beers than a surveyor. And then perhaps commission a naval arc' or engineer to have a look at her as far as stability and trim for the design to see if she is likely to do what the boat in Peter's thread looked to be doing and to possibly provide some indication of how she will sit on her lines.

That is, of course, unless he can find a marine surveyor who is also an experienced wooden boat builder and naval architect.

oznabrag
07-06-2009, 09:12 PM
Yes, I found that thread quite interesting. I am just a bit wary and concerned that every time someone posts about considering buying a boat here the standard response is "get a survey" when quite often the cost and value of doing so for the situation is questionable.

In the case of this boat, if I was looking at her, I would be far more interested in getting a boat builder to go through her with me and couple of beers than a surveyor. And then perhaps commission a naval arc' or engineer to have a look at her as far as stability and trim for the design to see if she is likely to do what the boat in Peter's thread looked to be doing and to possibly provide some indication of how she will sit on her lines.

That is, of course, unless he can find a marine surveyor who is also an experienced wooden boat builder and naval architect.

I think that the beer-mellowed conversation you describe above would certainly qualify as a 'survey' in this case!

The point being, get another set of eyes on it.

Saltiguy
07-07-2009, 09:20 AM
Saltiguy, I know what you're saying, but when you have as much experience as some of the guys commenting 'negatively' on this post, you might understand what is really being said.;)

Oh pleeeeeeese!
I'm 71 years old , I've owned and built more boats than I can remember, and I understand PERFECTLY what is being said.
It's the rudeness that is offensive, along with the "self-appointed expert" attitude.
Why would you even THINK that I (or anyone else) doesn't understand what is being said? That's what I mean.
Hope you understand.

Saltiguy
07-07-2009, 09:25 AM
Ya know Mr. Grim, I am a pretty well respected craftsman myself.

I have NEVER treated ANY newbie with ANYWHERE CLOSE to the amount of abuse, disrespect, derision, bile and downright cussedness (be very grateful this is not the Bilge) that these so-called 'leading lights' of wooden boat repair have done to the newbies on this forum REGULARLY and REPEATEDLY.

In fact, there have been several crusty old carpenters who behaved that way toward me in the dim, misty past who VERY MUCH REGRETTED their actions at the time. One of them got to add 'being slammed across the kidneys with a 2X4' to his resume of experience.

I had enough of that sort of BS before I left home, thank you very much, and if you want to act out some sort of elitist oppression fantasy/withholding the sacred information BS, then you'll find out that I don't work with you anymore. If you give me good cause, I'll leave you bleeding and broken on my way out the door.

When some kid, still wet behind the ears, comes to me and asks some ridiculously inane sort of question, I answer him (or her, by the way) with all the accuracy, coherence, and compassion for ignorance I can muster. I do this for two reasons, 1) IT'S THE RIGHT WAY TO ACT!!!! and 2) These are the only kids we got, people! They are the only ones who will EVER continue ANY traditional skill, because they are the ONLY ONES WHO WANT TO.

As far as I am concerned, a couple of these self-professed 'experts' are not fit to scrub my God&^%%$ toilets, much less work on any boat of mine, for the simple reason that they are so wrapped up in being selfish, self-righteous, self-important, self-serving, self-aggrandizing, exclusionary idiots.

Of course, if I showed up with a stack of C-notes, they'd fall all over themselves kissing my backside in an effort to get my business, and call me an idiot behind my back for wanting to save that old rot-bucket.

This shows just exactly how shallow and self involved they are. They won't be, at the least, COURTEOUS to the starry-eyed newbie who is THEIR ONLY HOPE for the continuation of their tradition. They would rather seek to abuse and denigrate and befoul any attempt to gain admission into their precious exclusive club.

Well, I'll tell you something. I can build a spiral staircase and I learned to do so on my own. None of the self-righteous idiots who told me I couldn't EVER did that.

In my opinion, there is at least one boatbuilder in the Northwest US who has acquired the humility of the TRUE artisan, and he has not posted to this thread.

Perfectly said!

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-07-2009, 11:53 AM
Oh pleeeeeeese!
I'm 71 years old , I've owned and built more boats than I can remember, and I understand PERFECTLY what is being said.
It's the rudeness that is offensive, along with the "self-appointed expert" attitude.
Why would you even THINK that I (or anyone else) doesn't understand what is being said? That's what I mean.
Hope you understand.


Probably because you babbled on about some guy with latex paint and exterior grade plywood and suggested that was good practice. It's okay, you're entitled to your opinion.

I stand by my opinion, which is avoiding that big 50 foot lump being talked about.

Lew Barrett
07-07-2009, 12:16 PM
I'm not going to re-engage in any further discussion of what is or isn't appropriate debate in respect to this particular thread anymore, as I think many have stepped over the line here, and nobody ever seems to own the moral high ground for long on WBF.

I do want to review the issue of value and set the record straight in respect to Kay Dee II, as it seems my original supposition that the boat was first sold to a speculator who represented himself as an interested owner and then immediately listed on E-Bay was the correct one. The info I got at CWB's event proved to be in error, and indeed, the boat was sold, and resold within two weeks by two different people. I spoke with the "original" owners yesterday because I saw that the ebay sale had ended with a final sales price of $50,300. I called Jodi, who was one of the "important owners" in this boat's history, (as opposed to the "ebay agent of the sale) and she set me straight.

Indeed, an intermediary buyer came along and scooped her up for about $25K, having first realized what a good buy she was even in today's market. He assured the real caretakers that he was looking forward to using and enjoying Kay Dee II. The ebay listing is somewhat misleading in this respect because it reads as if the seller had done the upkeep all these years and was intimate with the boat.
As an interested observer, it sure fooled me.

Needless to say, the first party sellers are somewhat upset about the outcome, since you simply cannot own one of these vessels in the long term without at least a modicum of emotional investment, all costs and expenses entirely aside. Without adding onus or burden to this unexpected turn of events, there is at least some opportunity for quick gain if you can buy and sell well, even in this screwy market.

It's hard not to feel a lot of sympathy for the recent "real" owners who took the loss after paying in with money and effort. All's well that ends well, and I am sure they will find another, equally satisfying boat that ends up being more suitable to their purpose.

I hope this last comment isn't viewed as other than a considered and educated opinion, but I do believe this illustrates how there is far more immediate potential financial gain to be had in the trading of really finely found vessels over the those that require a great deal of investment in time and money to be brought back. This was the reason I diverted attention to Kay Dee II in the first place. I had hoped it would be illustrative. Instead, it turned out to be another point of contention in an already highly contentious and really rather disengaging thread.

pcford
07-07-2009, 12:34 PM
<snips> it turned out to be another point of contention in an already highly contentious and really rather disengaging thread.

and it has become the thread which would not die..though it deserved to be put down long ago...

Interesting about the KD, Lew.

CharlieCobra
07-07-2009, 01:28 PM
I can understand you feelings about KDII Lew. That was a bit underhanded of the buyer, acting as if he/she was really interested in being the next custodian of the boat. That's how these gorgeous old girls fall into disrepair. They go from a caring owner to a clueless or unscrupulous one. Another comment here. While I may not agree with all of you folks and your views up here, I do appreciate where you are coming from...., usually.;)

David G
07-07-2009, 01:47 PM
Just curious Ozzy, why are you so insistent that he MUST get a survey on a $1000.00 hull that has a couple of thousand dollars worth of kit in it???

Larks,

I'm just getting around to poking into this thread, and have read it now fore to aft. From what I gather, Fireball's intent is to restore the boat, not part it out. If he were just wanting to sell off the valuable bits, that - as Lew pointed out - would require its own calculus (but probably not a survey). What folks are recommending with the survey is to determine whether the boat is worth sinking tens (and very possibly, hundreds) of thousands of dollars into.

Being in the biz, I've been offered, over the years, several similar boats for free. So far, none of them have been interesting enough to be worth the cost of a survey. If I found something that looked like a good candidate, and was the type of boat that fit my needs, I would agree that a survey would be the (absolutely imperative) next step. I'd also add: take the time to find a surveyor who Really Knows vintage wooden boats. Depending on where you are located, it might involve some travel expense - but it'll be worth it.

Prosit

Larks
07-07-2009, 07:36 PM
Larks,
I'd also add: take the time to find a surveyor who Really Knows vintage wooden boats. Depending on where you are located, it might involve some travel expense - but it'll be worth it.


I don't disagree with your's or Ozzy's comments David, but this part of your message is the most important part of the process which seems to be commonly left out of the standard comment of "get a surveyor". Hence my preference for what I've said in post #175 for Fireball's immediate needs.

oznabrag
07-07-2009, 10:10 PM
Well, Fireball? We're all on pins and needles, you know!

MurphIschia
07-10-2009, 07:30 PM
I've said my peace except to say that everyone here who has restored a fifty foot boat should post a smilie. Then we'll know who speaks from experience and who is just speaking. A forty foot boat also rates a smilie. Eighteen foot boat, still a grasshopper.

:)

Here's mine :)

Interesting thread.

We're not talking "life or death" here so whatever you choose to do just keep smiling these boats were designed for fun.

My one recommendation is to get the boat surveyed by a wood boat professional, not to save you a thousand bucks, but to help you layout a game plan to bring this boat up to your vision.
As a new big wood boat enthusiast this survey should be an invaluable informative and fun start to the world of wooden cruisers.

MurphIschia
07-10-2009, 08:54 PM
Just me, but anyone looking at a 50 ft boat already has the experience, and does not need the help of some guy that last looked a 34 ft tired and rotted 40 yr old wood boat 2 yrs ago and has no idea about your qualifications, plans and skills. Maybe your all related to surveyors and are just doing your part to get him a job so he'l move out of your house and off your living room couch.

Just my opinion here that if you need that guy, you should not even think about this or any other boat, go back to dreaming or buy a NEW BOAT... the economy needs the stimulation, do your part.

I hope Fireball returns to tell us what he's done.

Gary it's good to see that you were born with all the wooden boat knowledge of the world already in your head.
but some of us were not given the proverbial "wooden spoon" in our cribs and thus need to gather knowledge from those that have gone before us.
As Fireball has already admitted he is new to wood boats and would thus profit greatly from someone with experience helping him.

Oh by the way, where's it written that your first wood boat can not be 50'?
Glad Noah didn't get your memo :D

oznabrag
07-10-2009, 09:30 PM
Alright now.

I am in agreement that anyone considering the purchase of a 50-foot wooden cruiser that has never floated (freely;)) as his first wooden boat project should get a survey.

While it is true that nearly pristine Diesels and a bunch of bronze deck fittings would show a profit over the purchase price of 1K, their sale price would be bitter comfort at the end of a 3 year 300K restoration. At that point, one would have probably had the engines rebuilt anyway, as that would be such a miniscule percentage of the total.

An experienced wooden boat surveyor, who isn't lovestruck, will comprehend the extent of repairs necessary, and convey that magnitude to you in no uncertain terms. Besides, he's certified, right? He is a professional. If he tells you the hull has no rot and you end up spending $100,000 on hull repairs, he's liable to whatever degree you can hold his feet to the fire.

On a smaller boat, the risks are not so great.

In a situation where one is accustomed to wheeling and dealing in used boat equipment, the 1K price is a no-brainer, and the Sun wouldn't set twice on that thing after the sale.

As I say, I never had a problem with sage advice, but I've never met a real Sage with his ego buried so far up his backside that he can't hear himself.

So what about it Fireball?

What's the report, Old Son?

Don't be embarrassed if you didn't grab the boat. We still support you, but we wanna know what's up!

Larks
07-10-2009, 11:22 PM
Besides, he's certified, right? He is a professional. If he tells you the hull has no rot and you end up spending $100,000 on hull repairs, he's liable to whatever degree you can hold his feet to the fire.

Oz, that raises a good question. I'm not sure about the laws in the States but my understanding is that the general international marine surveying practice is for the surveyor to undertake a vessel/hull survey under the condition of accepting no liability and the survey report will be based solely on the status of what they are able to see and access. They will generally have quite a few riders to cover their backs, particularly if they can't access an area, ie if it's an in water survey, or if they can't access behind cupboards or sealed bilge areas etc.

Not wanting to thread drift, but while we are waiting for Fireball to let us know the outcome ofthe 50'e: I'm doing an assignment on Maritime Law at the moment so I'd be especially interested if there are conditions in the States (or elsewhere) that prevent the surveyor from covering his backside with no liability clauses. Or better still, if anyone knows of any specific cases where the surveyor has been succesfully sued over a survey that has proven to be invomplete or incorrect.

thanks

Raka025
07-11-2009, 09:08 AM
Oh by the way, where's it written that your first wood boat can not be 50'?
Glad Noah didn't get your memo :D

My first boat was 35' and wood. I'm glad this forum wasn't here at the time. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Granted it was 35', floating and recently restored. Never mind the example.

One could also look at the silence as he did get the boat and he is way too busy to waste time here. Or we have the buyers remorse thing going.

Personally, I would like to see a floating boat and a happy owner. Good luck Fireball.

oznabrag
07-11-2009, 11:49 AM
Oz, that raises a good question. I'm not sure about the laws in the States but my understanding is that the general international marine surveying practice is for the surveyor to undertake a vessel/hull survey under the condition of accepting no liability and the survey report will be based solely on the status of what they are able to see and access. They will generally have quite a few riders to cover their backs, particularly if they can't access an area, ie if it's an in water survey, or if they can't access behind cupboards or sealed bilge areas etc.

Not wanting to thread drift, but while we are waiting for Fireball to let us know the outcome ofthe 50'e: I'm doing an assignment on Maritime Law at the moment so I'd be especially interested if there are conditions in the States (or elsewhere) that prevent the surveyor from covering his backside with no liability clauses. Or better still, if anyone knows of any specific cases where the surveyor has been succesfully sued over a survey that has proven to be invomplete or incorrect.

thanks

To tell you the truth, Larks, I don't know. That's why I used an extreme example. $100,000 in hull repairs to a hull pronounced sound would indicate some liability to the surveyor, despite any disclaimer, and would be a reflection of his utter incompetence, if nothing else.

The whole point of the 'get a survey' is the same as 'don't dive into water of unknown depth'.

I underlined your comment about Fireball, just to point out to him (if he's lurking about) that we're still pulling for him, and want to know how he is, in the world.

oznabrag
07-11-2009, 11:51 AM
Personally, I would like to see a floating boat and a happy owner. Good luck Fireball.

This echos my thoughts, exactly.

Where you at, Fireball? What is UP! :D

boattruck
07-11-2009, 12:08 PM
Fireball, While this is an enticing project, you should also remember that from the photo's and description this is a boat built by a strong 'individualist' who may have ignored some pretty important conventions of boatbuilding that could potentialy make this a very difficult project to bring to a happy conclusion, the hard part is deciding if it is a 'parting out' execise or a restoration...either way I can feel the pull, even from 2000 miles away, Cheers, BT

sdowney717
07-11-2009, 04:06 PM
Just my opinion here that if you need that guy, you should not even think about this or any other boat, go back to dreaming or buy a NEW BOAT... the economy needs the stimulation, do your part.


Gary you are so right, the surveyor will already tell you what you already know about the boat. When I got my 37 footer, I passed on even considering a pre purchase survey since I knew I would do what ever it took to do what ever it needed. After a couple of years passed, and some major work, I insured the boat thru Boat US and had to get a survey. IF the boat had the survey first, it would definitely not have met requirements for insurance, rotten transom etc...

Larks
07-11-2009, 10:09 PM
To tell you the truth, Larks, I don't know. That's why I used an extreme example. $100,000 in hull repairs to a hull pronounced sound would indicate some liability to the surveyor, despite any disclaimer, and would be a reflection of his utter incompetence, if nothing else.

The whole point of the 'get a survey' is the same as 'don't dive into water of unknown depth'.

I underlined your comment about Fireball, just to point out to him (if he's lurking about) that we're still pulling for him, and want to know how he is, in the world.

The scenario has got me looking anyway. So far it seems there are a few ways that a client can look to seek damages against the surveyor but they would essentially have to prove that either the surveyor hasn't met the original contracted requirements of the survey, in which case you'd need to be quite specific in detailing what you want the survey to achieve, or negligence in duty of care or one of the Terms of Statute in the supply of goods and services act- "carry out the service using reasonable skill and care".

But again this seems to be where the surveyor can protect themselves to a certain extent by specifying what they are and are not able to achieve in the initial contract of service.

There are also "Implied terms", and my favourite is "the business efficacy/officious bystander test". Which essentially means that where an item isn't included in the contract but is the cause for a claim, the courts would consider a scenario where, if the parties are agreeing the terms of a contract and an officious bystander chimes in with something like "but what about such and such??" (ie what about checking for dodgy fastenings?) and both parties are likely to respond with a common "oh of course!"

As much as my assignment is looking at a number of items of maritime law, more to do with how a surveyor might help a shipping company in advice on liability issues and other maritime law claims it does also allow us to look at how a competent and scrupulous surveyor who employs professional practices can protect themselves against liability in the course of their business, and to ensure that they don't open themselves up to liability. It isn't as much about surveying hulls as the broader range of general marine surveyor roles in commercial shipping.

Anyway, sorry about the diversion, that's just another filler while we wait to hear from Fireball.:)

David G
07-11-2009, 11:07 PM
There is no fireball. Dutch is just getting more sophisticated :rolleyes:

Lew Barrett
07-11-2009, 11:10 PM
Gary you are so right, the surveyor will already tell you what you already know about the boat.

You are working with a poor surveyor. A good surveyor knows the score. If you know all there is to know about assessing condition, then you have a new and promising career in front of you as your area's foremost surveyor. If not, and what you say has been your experience, it would be a good time to learn the trade, as an honest surveyor is needed in Newport News. As in all trades, there are better and worse. Good ones may be rare (although I don't think they are that hard to find here) but they are certainly worth the search. Anyway, a guy who says he's brand new and tackling a 50 foot boat might need a bit of help along the way, don't you think?

Regarding the value of the "mint Diesels" I see them as Ford Lehmans. If that's what they are, as I suspect to be the case, know that Lehmans haven't been marinized professionally for over 20 years. That doesn't disqualify them as power for this boat, but it makes them less valuable as take-outs. What might be the value of such a pair of essentially obsolete motors in unknown condition? If indeed they are Lehmans, which Fireball can inform us about with accuracy if he wishes. As a pair to sell, any new buyer would want to know the availability of parts and service, and the current condition. The most likely purchaser (assuming that's what it came to) would be somebody seeking a replacement or parts for their own Lehman. That's why a survey might help. I'm not one to shy from a project myself, or advise others to when the conditions are clear. When they are unclear, caution is advised as a courtesy, not a disservice.


.

oznabrag
07-12-2009, 12:40 AM
We are once again indebted to you, Mr. Barrett, for your kind and gentle overview.:)

What do you think might have become of Fireball? I went so far as to email the guy, myself but, since then, I have seen neither hide nor hair.

Larks
07-12-2009, 12:47 AM
We are once again indebted to you, Mr. Barrett, for your kind and gentle overview.:)

What do you think might have become of Fireball? I went so far as to email the guy, myself but, since then, I have seen neither hide nor hair.

I've PM'd him as wel Oz, nothing back though.

Lew Barrett
07-12-2009, 12:47 AM
I have no idea, Oz. I don't doubt he may have gotten his fill, or he may have taken another route, he may be seeking...ahem...professional advice....or he may just not have the WBF jones as we do. Or he could be up to his neck in alligators moving a big heavy boat? This has been another one of "those threads."

One thing is clear. There's no easy way to say it quickly on the forum! :D

oznabrag
07-12-2009, 01:16 AM
I have no idea, Oz. I don't doubt he may have gotten his fill, or he may have taken another route, he may be seeking...ahem...professional advice....or he may just not have the WBF jones as we do. Or he could be up to his neck in alligators moving a big heavy boat? This has been another one of "those threads."

One thing is clear. There's no easy way to say it quickly on the forum! :D

:D:D:D

Where're you at, Fireball?

You can see I wasn't joshin' ya!

Errabody's anxious to hear from you. :)

fireball
07-12-2009, 10:09 AM
I am still here and I have been reading along with this and many other threads to try and get more information about this type of boat. I have not yet made a decision on the boat. I went and take a closer look at some things the other day and found out the caulk that he used was boat life and that he did not use any cotton or anything behind the caulk. I also looked at the engines closer and got a couple of pictures that I will put up here in a couple of days to see if anybody recognizes them. I also took my brother with me to see if he could find any major problems. We did not see anything that would not be easily replaced. Right now the only thing stopping me is that I have not convinced my dad (who has only seen the pictures) it is a worthy project and he owns the land where I would want to put it. He knows people who have had wooden boats and he has heard that they are too much work each year.

Larks
07-12-2009, 10:17 AM
Hi Fireball, good to see you mate. It sounds like you are certainly going about this right way so all the best with it mate. Do keep some photos coming, there will no doubt be some others with some good advice re such things as calking, I have no experience with it so would only be repeating what I've read. cheers and keep us informed, we are all very interested (and some of us just slightly jealous)

Larks
07-12-2009, 10:19 AM
Bye the way, your dad's right about them being too much work each year but then that's probably why there's such a succesful Wooden Boat Forum devoted to them.

oznabrag
07-12-2009, 12:39 PM
we are all very interested (and some of us just slightly jealous)

Big grins, all around!

peter radclyffe
07-12-2009, 02:25 PM
fireball, start the auction

oznabrag
07-17-2009, 01:23 AM
Come on now Fireball, Ol' Son! There's a felladown in the Bilge sayin' he weren't never rude to you.

Don't a damned one of us care whether you scored the 50 footer or not, young fella, the fact that you were offered such is a mighty stroke on your side.

Let us know how you fare.

pcford
07-17-2009, 01:28 AM
Come on now Fireball, Ol' Son! There's a felladown in the Bilge sayin' he weren't never rude to you.



You could read the thread for yourself...and share an example please. Afraid your presumption is not correct?

Robb35
07-17-2009, 09:15 PM
I am pretty new to wooden boats, and brand new to this forum, but I think you have quite a find there. I dont think it's hogged. I think that is camera angle.

If you have the time, you should be ok. You wil develop infinite patience. You will learn to bite the bullit and start a job over when you mess it up. You will learn to enjoy the process as I have.

Good luck.

oznabrag
07-18-2009, 12:30 AM
Afraid your presumption is not correct?
I'm afraid you have your ego lodged in your nether regions, and that this renders you useless to yourself and others.

pcford
07-18-2009, 12:33 AM
I'm afraid you have your ego lodged in your nether regions, and that this renders you useless to yourself and others.

Drinking again? Whatever, work it on out, my friend.

ARW123
07-18-2009, 02:02 AM
So much bile in this thread - can we not just grow up a bit... please?

oznabrag
07-18-2009, 02:29 AM
Where you at, Fireball?

Saltiguy
07-18-2009, 08:11 AM
I'd be surprised if Fireball returns after the rudeness shown here.

A month or so ago it was the guy with the barn-find Jersey Sea Skiff. They drove him away too.

pcford
07-18-2009, 11:04 AM
I'd be surprised if Fireball returns after the rudeness shown here.

A month or so ago it was the guy with the barn-find Jersey Sea Skiff. They drove him away too.

You will note that the "rudeness" as you put it was not directed at the original poster but rather at those individuals that enthusiastically encouraged that poster to enter into a proposition which was, in the opinion of experienced hands, was at least a dubious proposition.

It appears that you were among those advising him to "go for it." Just go hook a tractor onto it and haul it home. Condition was not that important in your view. You used as an example a couple of "wild and crazy" guys that slapped together a boat.

It appears that your concerns about etiquette toward the original poster are based in others' rejection of your suspect advice.

Sometimes a free boat is too expensive. One takes on a huge amount of obligations when one takes on ownership of a large boat. Telling someone to take the plunge without adequate knowledge is tantamount to telling someone to get married to a person they do not know.

Duncan Gibbs
07-18-2009, 08:17 PM
Gawd blimey!! Next it'll be pistols and cutlasses at dawn!! :rolleyes: Please gentlemen!! Save your bile for the Bilge!

Let us gather ALL the opinions as to what Fireball should or shouldn't do in one place:

1. Take it home and havago ya mug!!
2. Get a survey/experienced eye over in THEN take it home and havago ya mug!!
3. Get a survey, make some calculations as to time and money involved THEN take it home and havago ya mug!!
4. Get a survey, make some calculations as to time and money involved, find a suitable place to moor/berth then vessel once restored THEN take it home and havago ya mug!!
5. Get a survey, make some calculations as to time and money involved, find a suitable place to moor/berth then vessel once restored THEN take it to a yard and havago at it there ya mug!!!
6. Take it home and dismantle the boat to its parts and build a new boat out of the old bits.
7 Take it home and dismantle the boat and sell off the parts.

Other conclusions reached are:

a). Wooden boats are costly and take a good deal of maintenance. The larger they are the more this is true.
b). Moving a large wooden boat overland, even for a short distance, is difficult and problematic and could result in some significant damage to the vessel. Careful planning and multiple contingencies are required in such an operation.
c). A survey will not pick up everything that may be wrong with the vessel so be very prepared for surprises.
d). Know that you WILL be up for MANY thousands or Dinari by the time you've finished, but it won't stop there! (Reminds me of what BOAT stands for... Break Out Another Thousand!)
e). Even if you follow the dismantle route you'll still be up for some money to dispose of material you cannot salvage and you cannot burn or bury.

This thing may only cost $1,000 now but that, my friend is just the beginning. I'm still doing up my Mirror, purchased as a ruin for $200AUD at the end of 2007, and it's only 10'11". Are you mad? Do you want to join the ranks of We the insane???

Here endeth the lesson! :D;)

Saltiguy
07-18-2009, 08:19 PM
You will note that the "rudeness" as you put it was not directed at the original poster but rather at those individuals that enthusiastically encouraged that poster to enter into a proposition which was, in the opinion of experienced hands, was at least a dubious proposition.

It appears that you were among those advising him to "go for it." Just go hook a tractor onto it and haul it home. Condition was not that important in your view. You used as an example a couple of "wild and crazy" guys that slapped together a boat.

It appears that your concerns about etiquette toward the original poster are based in others' rejection of your suspect advice.

Sometimes a free boat is too expensive. One takes on a huge amount of obligations when one takes on ownership of a large boat. Telling someone to take the plunge without adequate knowledge is tantamount to telling someone to get married to a person they do not know.

No. Let's be honest - the purchase of ANY wooden boat is a dubious proposition. Fireball had pretty much made up his mind to buy her, and why not? Only a mile from his home, already on a trailer, and dirt cheap. Is it a Herreshoff? No. Is he going to win first place at the Mystic Boat Parade? Hell no!. Is it going to cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars to get ready? Certainly not. If it's the type of boat he really wants, it's an opportunity to own a big boat for awhile, use it like a mobile summer cottage and have a lot of fun and do it on a budget. . It's not like getting married - it's an adventure and entirely reversable if he decides he want out
The rudeness IMO came in the form of telling the guy that the boat is ugly, poorly built, worth nothing, dime-a -dozen, POS, etc. It's a question of tone - a tone that drives new people away.

Duncan Gibbs
07-18-2009, 08:23 PM
One last thing: A 50' motor boat will have to pass regulatory muster so be very aware of what is required to keep her on a navigable waterway.

elsewhere
07-18-2009, 09:54 PM
Ok, Gentlemen! I saw the boat! I drove 950 miles (each way) to take a very close look. Spent two days looking at it, and am now headed back home. IMO this boat is a "Diamond in the rough", to put it lightly. It has a history dating back to around 1926. Where Eugene Kane started the boat plans which took him 6 years to draw. He was an engineer and teacher. I saw the original photos through the whole process, the numerous news article clippings, and the near finished project. What this boat really needs is TLC! It has floated! The engines are Greenwich, which will make difficult for finding parts, but not even the belts and hoses were dryrotted. There was a small amount of rot on the bow which will need to be replaced, and a 6" section on the starboard side edge that will need to be replaced next to the deck. Other than that, this boat needs a LOT of sanding/varnishing, and some floor coverings/furnishings. This is a REAL find!!!

elsewhere
07-18-2009, 10:03 PM
....and yes, I'm new to the forum! Here to learn & all that Jazz! :)

So, "Hello", Fellas!

Please be gentle!:o

I just couldn't stay away from the 50 footer.... Had to go see for myself, and IT WAS A VERY BAD ANGLE ON THE PICS!:eek:

You really don't have to drink till she's pretty!

oznabrag
07-18-2009, 10:19 PM
Well we're glad to have you, elsewhere!

Very good of you to drop in on Fireball and have a gander at his find.

Good on you!

elsewhere
07-18-2009, 10:22 PM
http://picasaweb.google.com/laurastockert/20090718Boat#5359990525142473106

2MeterTroll
07-18-2009, 10:49 PM
so mate ya got to hit the keys to make letters come out :)

pila
07-18-2009, 10:57 PM
I can certainly share the hesitation on getting a big wood cruiser, and mine is only 26 ft. Continuous restoration it's called:D Luckily mine is in good shape since working on it every year, and it has only one engine:) Had it since 1995, and probably spent 6 or 7 grand keeping it up and replacing wood etc. I'm too much of a coward to add all the receipts to know for sure.

elsewhere
07-18-2009, 10:58 PM
ok! that didnt work.... ( i think )

heres a link

http://picasaweb.google.com/laurastockert/20090718Boat#5359990525142473106

elsewhere
07-18-2009, 11:01 PM
I was working on a retry to post this photo, but never figured it out! It kept sayin' my picture was too big...so I'd resize & resize.... never would go...sorry guys! click the link...should take you right to it! :)

2MeterTroll
07-18-2009, 11:05 PM
ah well you have to host off site so you might have to get a photo site that lets you link them. then its the old addy thing.

Saltiguy
07-18-2009, 11:06 PM
Elsewhere, you're my kinda guy. As our good friend Peter Lennihan says - "do it, do it, do it, do, it!"

Reminds me of a line we were required to memorize when I took the Dale Carnegie (sp?) course 50 years ago.
"There are men in the ranks who will stay in the ranks. Why? Simply because they do not have the ability to get things done!"

pcford
07-18-2009, 11:15 PM
I can certainly share the hesitation on getting a big wood cruiser, and mine is only 26 ft. Continuous restoration it's called:D Luckily mine is in good shape since working on it every year, and it has only one engine:) Had it since 1995, and probably spent 6 or 7 grand keeping it up and replacing wood etc. I'm too much of a coward to add all the receipts to know for sure.

Well...that's a lot of money for me but in the world of large boat restorations, it ain't nothing. I know someone who spent hundreds of thousands on a restoration of a boat very roughly the size of the boat under consideration.

Sure, you could be a "a wild and crazy guy" and not restore a boat properly, just bang it together and use it as a platform for drinking beer....somehow I don't think that is what Wooden Boat is all about. At least to me. Your mileage may differ.

elsewhere
07-18-2009, 11:53 PM
Elsewhere, you're my kinda guy. As our good friend Peter Lennihan says - "do it, do it, do it, do, it!"

Reminds me of a line we were required to memorize when I took the Dale Carnegie (sp?) course 50 years ago.
"There are men in the ranks who will stay in the ranks. Why? Simply because they do not have the ability to get things done!"

Aight, salti! ;) Slight correction...... I'm a gal! Lol! and can't seem to take "NO" for an answer! Stubborn, Bullheaded, whatever.... Lol! I just found interest in the boat, then I found the forum. So I couldn't help myself! I had to pack the roads!!!
Took the hubby & all 4(young) kids too! (&...YES I'm insane!)

But I tend to think... If it can be done, I will be the one to find a way! Never let ANYTHING get in your way. :)

banjoman
07-19-2009, 12:06 AM
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_BbYYV67FNN4/SmKC-_KTmZI/AAAAAAAAAB8/rYTXliK7uV0/s640/boat%20001.JPG

elsewhere
07-19-2009, 12:13 AM
Thanks for the help Banjo!!!

2MeterTroll
07-19-2009, 12:43 AM
hey that boat has a kid infestation! those are hard to get rid of last guy had a kid infestation was telling me its been a lifetime battle. :)

elsewhere
07-19-2009, 12:50 AM
hey that boat has a kid infestation! those are hard to get rid of last guy had a kid infestation was telling me its been a lifetime battle. :)
I'm laughing now, 2meter ! That was a good one! That's 3 of my children. I didnt trust leaving my 2 yr. Old up there somewhat unattended, much too big a fall!! & i love her just exactly in "1" piece!

banjoman
07-19-2009, 01:05 AM
No problem. Gonna be lots of time and money....
Good luck and keep us posted!

I actually like the headlights.:)

hansp77
07-19-2009, 01:12 AM
So what is the story now?
Elsewhere, hello and welcome, did you buy it? Has fireball bought it? Has no-one bought it yet?

2MeterTroll
07-19-2009, 01:15 AM
well i can think of worse things than a boat full of kids to help fix an old boat.

every so often i need some help building one: http://picasaweb.google.com/eawisner/Randome#5312491159460365570

elsewhere
07-19-2009, 01:35 AM
Wow, 2meter!!! Looks like you have a kid infestation of your own! :)
I can only hope my boat stays infested with kids(at least till it's done;) )

elsewhere
07-19-2009, 02:08 AM
OK, so ya'll know I'm a newbie! I feel like no question is a stupid question unless you don't ask it! So, I'm going to ask! What is the proper spacing on 1 & 3/4" thick x 5"wide planks (for swelling)? And is it ok to use only Boat Life caulk in between the planks with no cotton or oakum caulking?

peter radclyffe
07-19-2009, 02:47 AM
was she built close seamed

elsewhere
07-19-2009, 03:01 AM
was she built close seamed

Not closed, but somewhere between 1/8" & 1/4" gaps

pcford
07-19-2009, 03:10 AM
was she built close seamed

Peter, it appears that the boat is batten seam. This is a common building technique for powerboats in this country.

peter radclyffe
07-19-2009, 03:13 AM
i thought she was talking about another boat, i forgot which thread were on

pcford
07-19-2009, 03:15 AM
i thought she was talking about another boat, i forgot which thread were on

Yes, it's the thread that would not die.

Lew Barrett
07-19-2009, 03:18 AM
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0801.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/isoldit-il080/100_0800.jpg[/QUOTE]

These two photos are revealing regarding this boat, elsewhere. The second photo, suggests amongst other things that the seams are payed in Slick Seam. Pick out some of the seam compound and see if you find cotton under there. You should. There should be a caulking bevel that presents a uniform opening and then closes down to reveal primed cotton. The cotton could be the color of the bottom paint, as it must be primed to be effective and unified. If no cotton is visible, them the seam compound should be removed without damage to the caulking bevels and cotton caulked into the seams in a countinuous line. So you may be in for full caulking. Do you happen to know how she is fastened? Boat Life is not an appropriate product for this application. An oil based seam compound should be used over the cotton.

Which raises a question I cannot help but ask. If you are unfamiliar with caulking a vessel of this type, do you remain comfortable with assessing the overall condition of the boat and how easily she can be brought back and what value she will have at the end of the process. ? I have more questions than answers, but I have to ask if you are planning to have any experts look at her? That remains one aspect I think most of the experienced hands here have agreed we can recommend.

I still think the plank fastening suggests a very strange construction motif, and the lack of availability of parts for engines that are unkown
in this country says worlds about the salvage value of the machinery.
I just can't help myself but to continue to express skepticism about the outcome, nor to frankly (I'm afraid) suggest that it is easy for peopel to encourage enthusiasm when it isn't their money or they've never attempted such a huge task. To say, when looking at a boat like this ( I paraphrase) "All she needs is some paint and varnish and she'll be a treasure" is to come to the conclusion that there is a good possibility that while the enthusiasm is self evident, the experience to undewrstand this task this is not in place.

Welcome to the forum, elsewhere, and I trust I will be understood for simply speaking my mind as clearly as I can. This boat remains a huge project, not to be finished off with a few coats of latex.

Floating for a few hours on band aids of slick seam (potentially without proper caulking if I undertstand youer question) simply suggests that the people who floated her did so for some reason beyond my understanding, and that the test was not rigorous enough to have any real meaning at sea.

pcford
07-19-2009, 03:26 AM
Lew, I think the boat is batten seam, like the sides of a Chris, which means it had no caulking, just goop of whatever kind.

The engines are Greenwich. I quick google finds very limited links.

As to your cautionary note...of course I agree with you. However, there are those that are still urging others to press on...easy to say I suppose, it ain't their money. And this project will take a lot of it.

Say, why are you up? As for me, I am hitting the rack.

elsewhere
07-19-2009, 04:10 AM
These two photos are revealing regarding this boat, elsewhere. The second photo, suggests amongst other things that the seams are payed in Slick Seam. Pick out some of the seam compound and see if you find cotton under there. You should. There should be a caulking bevel that presents a uniform opening and then closes down to reveal primed cotton. The cotton could be the color of the bottom paint, as it must be primed to be effective and unified. If no cotton is visible, them the seam compound should be removed without damage to the caulking bevels and cotton caulked into the seams in a countinuous line. So you may be in for full caulking. Do you happen to know how she is fastened? Boat Life is not an appropriate product for this application. An oil based seam compound should be used over the cotton.

If you are unfamiliar with caulking a vessel of this type, do you remain comfortable with assessing the overall condition of the boat and how easily she can be brought back and what value she will have at the end of the process. ? I have more questions than answers, but I have to ask if you are planning to have any experts look at her? That remains one aspect I think most of the experienced hands here have agreed we can recommend.

I still think the plank fastening suggests a very strange construction motif, and the lack of availability of parts for engines that are unkown
in this country says worlds about the salvage value of the machinery.
I just can't help myself but to continue to express skepticism about the outcome, nor to frankly (I'm afraid) suggest that it is easy for peopel to encourage enthusiasm when it isn't their money or they've never attempted such a huge task. To say, when looking at a boat like this ( I paraphrase) "All she needs is some paint and varnish and she'll be a treasure" is to come to the conclusion that there is a good possibility that while the enthusiasm is self evident, the experience to undewrstand this task this is not in place.

Welcome to the forum, elsewhere, and I trust I will be understood for simply speaking my mind as clearly as I can. This boat remains a huge project, not to be finished off with a few coats of latex.

Floating for a few hours on band aids of slick seam (potentially without proper caulking if I undertstand youer question) simply suggests that the people who floated her did so for some reason beyond my understanding, and that the test was not rigorous enough to have any real meaning at sea.[/QUOTE]

I know for a fact... Theres no cotton. Just the boat life caulk. I am prepared to do a full caulk if necessary, and fully plan to get a survey!!!! I never spoke of my ability to judge the value of the complete or incomplete value of the vessel, i simply expressed that it was worth the $ required to buy it. Heck, i could scrap the engines, sell the brass & firewood & generator & all the other equipment and easily get my money back in full(no doubt)! I in no way am saying it is an "EASY" fixn but a VERY time consuming & tedious task. I also never said "LATEX", which belongs on a house, not a boat.
Strange or not, the planks were fastened 20 years ago & are on there pretty darn good! It floated for 2.5 months, not a couple of hours, and i have over 100 pics to show ya'll. I will post a link to them tomorrow as i am tring to drive home @ the moment & cannot scan them in(old photos)

elsewhere
07-19-2009, 04:12 AM
These two photos are revealing regarding this boat, elsewhere. The second photo, suggests amongst other things that the seams are payed in Slick Seam. Pick out some of the seam compound and see if you find cotton under there. You should. There should be a caulking bevel that presents a uniform opening and then closes down to reveal primed cotton. The cotton could be the color of the bottom paint, as it must be primed to be effective and unified. If no cotton is visible, them the seam compound should be removed without damage to the caulking bevels and cotton caulked into the seams in a countinuous line. So you may be in for full caulking. Do you happen to know how she is fastened? Boat Life is not an appropriate product for this application. An oil based seam compound should be used over the cotton.

If you are unfamiliar with caulking a vessel of this type, do you remain comfortable with assessing the overall condition of the boat and how easily she can be brought back and what value she will have at the end of the process. ? I have more questions than answers, but I have to ask if you are planning to have any experts look at her? That remains one aspect I think most of the experienced hands here have agreed we can recommend.

I still think the plank fastening suggests a very strange construction motif, and the lack of availability of parts for engines that are unkown
in this country says worlds about the salvage value of the machinery.
I just can't help myself but to continue to express skepticism about the outcome, nor to frankly (I'm afraid) suggest that it is easy for peopel to encourage enthusiasm when it isn't their money or they've never attempted such a huge task. To say, when looking at a boat like this ( I paraphrase) "All she needs is some paint and varnish and she'll be a treasure" is to come to the conclusion that there is a good possibility that while the enthusiasm is self evident, the experience to undewrstand this task this is not in place.

Welcome to the forum, elsewhere, and I trust I will be understood for simply speaking my mind as clearly as I can. This boat remains a huge project, not to be finished off with a few coats of latex.

Floating for a few hours on band aids of slick seam (potentially without proper caulking if I undertstand youer question) simply suggests that the people who floated her did so for some reason beyond my understanding, and that the test was not rigorous enough to have any real meaning at sea.[/QUOTE]

I know for a fact... Theres no cotton. Just the boat life caulk. I am prepared to do a full caulk if necessary, and fully plan to get a survey!!!! I never spoke of my ability to judge the value of the complete or incomplete value of the vessel, i simply expressed that it was worth the $ required to buy it. Heck, i could scrap the engines, sell the brass & firewood & generator & all the other equipment and easily get my money back in full(no doubt)! I in no way am saying it is an "EASY" fixn but a VERY time consuming & tedious task. I also never said "LATEX", which belongs on a house, not a boat.
Strange or not, the planks were fastened 20 years ago & are on there pretty darn good! It floated for 2.5 months, not a couple of hours, and i have over 100 pics to show ya'll. I will post a link to them tomorrow as i am tring to drive home @ the moment & cannot scan them in(old photos)

elsewhere
07-19-2009, 04:46 AM
Forgot to mention... There was only primer below water line... Never got bottom paint.

elsewhere
07-19-2009, 04:53 AM
http://picasaweb.google.com/laurastockert/20090718BoatHERE IS ANOTHER PICTURE LINK

Lew Barrett
07-19-2009, 11:31 AM
elsewhere, good luck with your potential acquisition. Use an oil based underwater seam compound, elsewhere, not Boat Life for as Pat reminds, me, batten seam boats take no cotton. Good for you to get the survey, and enjoy the process. My final comment on this: old boats hide their secrets well. In respect to my advice, I'd caution you not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Pat, I'd forgotten in the course of this that it might be/was a batten seam build. Still fastened very differently than I am accustomed to seeing. Ready to put the rails back on. .... after a little paint and varnish! :D