Rotten Mirror dinghy hull - advise please?!

[Simon1]

I was looking for a way to get back into sailing now my son is turning 5 and picked up a Mirror dinghy for a very low price - probably too low! I knew there would be a bit of work needed, but where most boats have a sound hull with a few patches of soft wood on the deck; mine seems to have a sound deck but rotten hull! It just seemed like a small patch (don't they always?) until I got it home and started prodding around - now it's about a foot long!! (see picture below)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_a72mkmyJl5w/Sj1Fmu3DJxI/AAAAAAAABaQ/tp0I3j3PKyM/s400/SCG_2019%20%28Small%29.JPG

This is what wood that's coming off is like:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_a72mkmyJl5w/Sj1Fmup3tsI/AAAAAAAABaE/a2j8B3hQIsQ/s576/SCG_2007%20%28Small%29.JPG

It's very soft, wet, black and dirty...

I keep pulling it back hoping to get to good wood, but it's already way bigger than I was expecting. I've now started taking the paint off with a heat gun to get a better view of the wood and as I'm taking the paint off the wood underneath is wet - but quickly dries with the direct heat from the gun.

I guess I need to know whether this is repairable, or if the whole thing is a write-off? If repairable, how should I go about? the concern I have is with Mirrors being stitch-and-glue I'm worried about taking the whole panel out and the boat loosing shape / strength. Any advice very gratefully received!!! Thanks...

Here are a few more pictures:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_a72mkmyJl5w/Sj1FmkUumwI/AAAAAAAABaI/OqMMrTBOF5k/s576/SCG_2011%20%28Small%29.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_a72mkmyJl5w/Sj1Fmn_Jf7I/AAAAAAAABaM/TjENXY0qcN0/SCG_2014%20%28Small%29.JPG

[TerryLL]

Simon1,

Welcome to the forum.

Looks to me that it's time to introduce your son to the joys of boatbuilding. Restoration is generally more time-consuming and more expensive than new construction. That hull belongs in the landfill. Salvage what you can, buy a set of plans, and build a boat that won't fall apart under you.

[Peerie Maa]

Fortunately Mirrors are quick, easy and a good starter boat. And you have all of the other bits, so all you need is plans, plywood, glass tape and paint.

[John Meachen]

It's all too common for Mirrors to rot from the bottom up.The quality of the ply in the original kit was none too special and if the cover is letting water in or is left off,the accumulation of water begins.I would guess that your problem has its origins in a leaky side tank.Having discovered the deterioration you have to determine the extent of it as the workshop is a much better place to do so than the Channel.The good news is that with a comparatively small boat the new part is likely to cost a small amount of money.The less good news is that fitting it might cause you to expand your skills repertoire.Duncan's restoration of the "Mighty Pippin" shows what can be done and it will be nice to see the project progress,ideally with lots of pictures.Anybody that manages to successfully post pictures with his first post here surely has the ability to restore a Mirror.Welcome to the forum.

[Hwyl]

I agree with what John said, determine the amount of rot, it could well be you'll be replacing the entire bottom; is that so bad.

Enjoy your boat

[Duncan Gibbs]

Restoration is generally more time-consuming and more expensive than new construction. That hull belongs in the landfill. Salvage what you can, buy a set of plans, and build a boat that won't fall apart under you.

Nonsense! I'm nearly done... If not for relinquishing self employment and the intrusion of full time employment I'd be on the water!!

Looky here,... (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73148)

...and here... (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77258)

...and finally here! (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79026)

Introduce your son to the joys of restoration as well.... and your wife to its insanity!! :D

[rbj37]

I hope you listen to Mr. Gibbs. The rebuild of "The Mighty Pippin" has been a very educational and fun thread. Post lots of pictures.

[Larks]

I hope you listen to Mr. Gibbs. The rebuild of "The Mighty Pippin" has been a very educational and fun thread. Post lots of pictures.

I'll well and truly second that opinion!!!!:)

[Woxbox]

You've really got nothing to lose. Just keep on ripping out the bad ply until there's nothing but solid stuff left. Then square up the hole(s) and fit your patches or new bottom, whichever it is. Not hard at all.

[Simon1]

Thanks to you all for your interest and comments.

John Meachen came to the same diagnosis as I had; problems with the side tank. Looks secure enough inside, but water has obviously got in somehow and been allowed to slosh around for quite some time. It's spead quite severely to the entire aft quarter - possibly the other side too, but there's a layer of glass to get through before I hit wood that side.

If you look carefully at the picture of the full hull in my first post, you'll see a small patch on the opposite side to the current hole. Looks like it might have been knocked on both sides (possibly from the trolley) and one patch has been better than the other.


I hope you listen to Mr. Gibbs. The rebuild of "The Mighty Pippin" has been a very educational and fun thread. Post lots of pictures.

Indeed I have - in fact it was Duncans story (epic journey?) that led me to post my problem here, and I was envisioning making some small patches to the hull in the same way that he has. I'm not sure I have as much time or skill as Duncan to take on this task, but as Woxbox said I've got nothing to loose! I'd rather not chop her up and junk her if I don't have to (doesn't seem quite right for a boat that's probably about 20+ years old) but I fear her sailing days are over. And while there is something special about wooden boats my intention was to sail one not rebuild one! I spent many summers as a teenager sanding, fixing, varnishing and painting a GP14 that I had. Hard work, but much nicer than a GRP model!

Thanks BHOFM for the tips. I guess I'll need a few long clamps from one side to the other to keep the shape when I remove the hull panel? Should I remove the side tanks first or rip the hull off with them in place?

Not sure how far I'll get with the project, but there's a few more weekends to go before I give up! I'll post some more pictures when I get more of the paint off.

Thanks!

[Larks]

Does she have a name? By the sounds of the amount of rotten wood that you'll be tearing out, perhaps the "Mighty Rippin'" as a sister ship toDuncans rebuild?

[Saltiguy]

Piece of cake. Fix her up, put your little boy in there, give him a paddle and a bucket and see what he does.
Later, you can put the mast on, give him a 5 minute sailing instructional and turn him loose.

[Old Sailor]

Here's another resource for you. I built my Mirror back in the 60's and patched her up several times.
Old Sailor
http://usmirrorsailing.com/default.aspx

[62816inBerlin]

OOPS - it does look like you have a major problem.

I do agree, read through Duncan's excellen mighty thread on the Mighty Pippin. Also browse the various "Plywood-related" threads and the Mirror forums etc.
I have some experience with rot, but nowhere on the scale that you are facing. I did a short PDF-description outlining how I went about it, see: http://www.hirsinger-translations.de/gast/boating/patch.pdf

We'd be happy to welcome you as a member in the Mirror Discussion Forum: http://mirrordiscussforum.multiply.com/ where Mirrormaniacs meet.

I have heard rumours that people have virtually rebuilt a Mirror, saving just the transom piece with the hull number on it in order to say it's the original boat!

Wishing you perseverance and success,
:-{)
Gernot H.

[Ken Hall]

Going to have to dig into this further when I have more free time. Alas, I chopped mine up years ago (in my defense, it was really bad and had become a home for yellowjackets besides), with the intent to get a hull-only kit down the road (still have the rudder, tiller, daggerboard, spars, sails, standing rigging, and hardware, or most of it). Still would like to do that, perhaps 2011 or 2012 (Lord willin' and the creek don't rise).

[Duncan Gibbs]

I'm not sure I have as much time or skill as Duncan to take on this task, but as Woxbox said I've got nothing to loose!

Skill?? SKILL????? Quite the contrary my dear fellow all you need is a liberal serve of pure bloody mindedness extensively garnished with rampant, mild insanity. Skill is something you'll pick up along the way... Like tools! Watch a few Frank Klauz DVDs for this skill thing! Better still go and marvel at Jim Ledger's catboat thread.


Thanks BHOFM for the tips. I guess I'll need a few long clamps from one side to the other to keep the shape when I remove the hull panel? Should I remove the side tanks first or rip the hull off with them in place?

I strongly suggest that you remove ONLY the rotten timber and leave as much of the original timber in-situ. Since the ply is sprung on simple curves and has been held that way since it was built I dare say if the majority of it remains then so will the hull shape. If you end up with sound timber that has been patched a good re-taping of the seams will give you a robust little vessel.


Not sure how far I'll get with the project, but there's a few more weekends to go before I give up!

And the weekends turns into a month of Sundays... And before you know it you'll be as crazy as the rest of us!!

"Mirror Mirror on the forum,
Whose the insaniest of them all'm?"

This ship of yours got a name Simon?

[John Meachen]

Even if you have to remove the decks to securely glass inside the tanks,you will be hard pressed to spend more than about £55 on materials.I may be mistaken but my recollection is that there are no plans for Mirrors,they were sold as kits and you will have to make patterns of the pieces you remove.If the hull does not twist you should be able to rebuild it as a much better boat than it currently is.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

If I could get a beyond-usability Mirror I would, oh so, carefully dismember it with a dozooky saw so that I had a complete set of patterns from which to build a new one.

[Larks]

If I could get a beyond-usability Mirror I would, oh so, carefully dismember it with a dozooky saw so that I had a complete set of patterns from which to build a new one.

Yep, that's what they told Duncan Gibbs...but did he listen??? Nooooo, and look at the fun we've all had watching his rebuild!:D

Actually, come to think of it, I think standard advice on this forum should actually be more aimed towards the entertainment of the forum than the person seeking the advice. :D:D

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Dear Duncan,
His name is KLAUSZ. He is a Hungarian and they, like everybody else, have their own phonetic alphabet. You wouldn't want to get up the snout of those Hungarians, would you?
Did you ever see his trick baby bath tub? He quickly nails together a modest sized box and it holds water.
Don't forget to practice your dovetails, mate!

[Duncan Gibbs]

Hey Chuck! Thanks for the correction. You, dear Sir, have the distinct honor of being the first on this board to correct my spelling. I know about Austro-Hungarian tempers as my partner is one! ;):D

I love the work of Mr Klausz. Are you referring to the wet box for his Japanese water stones? If so I built one in his manner and it worked terrifically. Haven't done any dovetails yet but I'll be sure to practice them when I've more time. As it is I can only snatch a brief moment here and there to post to the forum... I'm on my lunch break as I type!

Don't listen to Mr Chuck, Simon... Join the madness: The World will look much nicer when you do!! :)

[Simon1]

Duncan posted some pictures of the inside of his side tanks at the start of his project, so just for fun (?!) I thought I'd post some comparisons (I hope it's OK to repost your pictures here Duncan?)

NB: as my 'ship' is upside down, I've rotated the pictures to be a better match with Duncans - this is why the peeling paint looks like it's hanging upwards! Also note, I haven't done anything to the inside of these tanks yet - this is how they looked!

So, Port side looking forward:

-- Duncan's tank

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/18552276/293437572.jpg

Now mine:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_a72mkmyJl5w/SkB91fkTkII/AAAAAAAAB5I/-1RJ7Yjdq08/s400/Picture%20004%20%28Small%29.jpg

-- Starboard side of the aft tank:

Duncan's:


http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1913/10058894/18552276/293437579.jpg

Mine:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_a72mkmyJl5w/SkB91Tj7r9I/AAAAAAAAB5A/E3pBu10QMoU/s512/Picture%20002%20%28Small%29.jpg

The entire rear half of the hull will need replacing, part of the all tanks and maybe some of the sides where they're stiched to the bottom...

She is, as yet, un-named - although I've had a few suggestions! Feel free to to send some through and if she ever makes it back onto the water I'll use the best one...

I did check her age and she looks like she was made in the early '70s. There are still loads of Mirrors from that period sailing around, just seems mine hasn't been well cared for :(

[andrewdarius]

Hello there,

I don't own a Mirror, but recently attacked a similar issue with a Blue Jay. We picked her up for a small amount of money, but she needed quite a bit of work. The entire bottom, the chines, the keel, centerboard trunk, and a number of floors and frames had rotted through, but everything above the waterline seemed OK. Within a calendar year we had replaced all of the rotten bits and launched her. Patches of rot can be discouraging, but simply put in a few hours a week, and you'll be there...some photos for inspiration...

A situation like this requires a certain amount of determination to go on...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9d802b3127ccec73a19ed7a2000000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

After new chines, keel, centerboard trunk, skeg, and frames/floors, hope begins to spring...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9d802b3127ccec73b9954dba500000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

New bottom panels, not your typical whiskey plank, but celebratory nonetheless...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9d802b3127ccec73b63c7db4b00000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/


And a couple of months later...a boat...

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9d834b3127ccec70a8f48b07f00000040O00BatGzhwzcMQ e3nww/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

This forum can be an excellent place for encouragement. Make an accurate assesment of your project before continuing, and after giving yourself the green light, proceed one step at a time.

Andy

[Thorne]

As above, restoring can be more work (and possibly expense) than building new, but often easier for beginning builders. Looks like you are going about it the right way, and have excellent advice given above.

[Saltiguy]

Look, you're not going racing or entering her in a beauty contest. That 5 year old will have a ball with that mirror. Get everything you need at Home Depot for 50 bucks, fix it in a week and go have fun.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Mirrors are rather historic. They are the original Stitch and Glue boat. Because they are prams they are fairly commodious and are good sailers. And, from what I gather, there are no plans. The only way to get one is to buy an existing hull or buy a kit from the association. Of course, if you have one that can be reduced to it's components, you have everything you need to build a duplicate. The association may not like you but what the don't know....etc.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Actually Chuck (hehe... My turn to correct you :D) Mirrors are built from templates - at least here in Oz they are - and each regional branch has an ordained measurer who will accept each vessel into the brotherhood if it measures up correctly. Templates can be "hired" from the association for a joining fee which will also provide you with a sail number. I should really try and re-register mine but the nearest MA is up in Brisbane, 180km away, and my restoration my be declared not to class... But they may just take pity on me! :D

Simon, those tanks look fine, aside from the badly applied paint. There appears to be some amount of water staining in the corner of the aft tank but if the wood isn't soft then there's nothing to stop you from getting into the project. You don't have to be as mad as me, or as dedicated (and skilful) as Andrew, but you will surely have a great wee ship to have a load of fun in!

Post pictures though!! ;)

[62816inBerlin]

Of course we expect photos in exchange for all the expert advice.
When you're done, then the fun is on: see (e. g.) http://multiply.com/slideshow/mirrordiscussforum:photos:14/1
and


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgzu0nXQRxI
(me and some frozen-snot boats on a messabout week before last).

Gernot H.

[paul oman]

simple quick and dirty repair if only a few plate sized bad spots.
chip out the rotten wood - rough edges OK - foam block sanded/shaped to hull placed inside hull and covered with wax paper or plastic (sort of a backup plate). Then epoxy and fiberglass cloth layers. remove foam block and plastic. More epoxy - fiberglass - thickened epoxy to fill and fair (inside and out) - lots of sanding to fair and smooth into surrounding hull - the paint. Note this patch work approach works for little boats, probably not good for 'larger' craft.

Had similar issue when I attempted to water blast the famous "leaf blower dinghy' and blasted a few holes in the bottom!

[Old Sailor]

Before doing anything drastic, put some clamps across the gunwales to preserve the shape.
Old Sailor and Mirror builder.

[Ed Harrow]

Is that the 'little' Mirror, or the 16? I've done repair work on a 16. The underside picture - looks a wee bit pointy, but the centerboard box looks to short for the 16.