Peeing in the bilge

[david quillin]

I know, not the most romantic subject, but...

In bad weather I find I can avoid leaving the comfort of the cabin when nature calls by raising a deck hatch and peeing into the bilge (I have no head on board, so its this or go aft and pee over the side). I wonder what effects, if any, this has? I have a Hooper Island Draketail, a Chesapeake Bay workboat. It leaks like a sieve so there is a high turnover of the bilgewater.

Wooden Boat Magazine had a brief comment about urine being a good wood preservative. Is this just a myth, could it do anything bad to the wood?

Just wondering...

[StevenBauer]

You never heard of a bucket? :D

Steven

[Paul Pless]

I wonder what effects, if any, this has?...

...It leaks like a sieve so there is a high turnover of the bilgewater.
for one thing its gonna be hard to get anybody from this forum to go down into your bilge and see what's wrong :D

[Y Bar Ranch]

Certainly cheaper than writing your name on the side.

[uncas]

David...for you this might work and be okay...but your crew may not have the same abilities...Hence a bucket... tongue.gif

[Mrleft8]

Nothing like a little acid to help those fastenings corrode a little faster. May I suggest that you NOT do this after eating asparagus?

[John Bell]

Originally posted by Mrleft8:
Nothing like a little acid to help those fastenings corrode a little faster. May I suggest that you NOT do this after eating asparagus?Unless you are really sick, the pH of pee is neutral. Urine has no worse corrosion potential than salt water, I'll bet.

It still might make for a stinky boat, tho'.

Take a page from the mountaineers who are loath to go out into a raging blizzard to take a leak: use a 1 liter Nalgene bottle (clearly labeled "Piss ONLY" :D ) and dump it overboard when the weather is better.

[Alan D. Hyde]

There you go.

Make some trucker's bombs.

Alan

[Jay Greer]

Two guys were freshwater fishing in a small boat. A stoppered bottle drifted by and one guy picked it up and uncorked it. A genie appeard and said that he would grant one wish. The fisherman that held the bottle was so taken aback that he blurted out; "Turn the lake into beer!" In a flash it was done. His partner said,
"Wow that was stupid! Now we are going to have to pee in the bilge!"

[david quillin]

Thanks for the, umm, helpful replies. Always interesting feedback on here.

By the way, I consider this an emergency technique. Made a recent passage up the Delaware bay in 35 knot gusts (horrible mistake, I know, don't bring it up). Peeing in a bottle while being bounced off a cabin roof would have taken some dexterity... Anyway, thats what got me thinking about the interaction of urine and wood, and then the Wooden Boat Magazine comment...

And Hi Uncas, nice to hear from you, still want to sail with you...

[Leon m]

Originally posted by david quillin:
And Hi Uncas, nice to hear from you, still want to sail with you...Just don't let him near your bilge. :eek: :D

[Alan D. Hyde]

:D :D

Alan

[Bruce Hooke]

Peeing into a bottle could be tough under those sorts of circumstances, but what about a bucket?

I don't know what sort of affect urine has on fasteners, but it is supposed to be an effective way of putting a patina on bronze so it must be creating some sort of chemical reaction. It clearly does not damage bronze because otherwise it would not be used as a low-tech patina technique, but I don't know what it does to other types of metal.

Lastly, maybe this is more than you want to do just to pee, but do you have a good way to heave to in your boat? To me that is one of the more important tools available to a solo sailor. Edited to add: I just re-read your question and you said leave the comfort of the cabin, which suggests to me that you are talking about times when you are not underway. In that case heaving to would be a moot point, but it would sure have to be rough for it to be impossible to pee into a bottle when you are at anchor!

Edited to add...I should note that I doubt peeing in the bilge occassionally will do anything bad, but if you do it a lot I'd be a bit more concerned, and I also am not sure how necessary it is.

It should maybe be noted as well that peeing over the side is a good way to end up swimming, so even under circumstances where peeing over the side would be a realistic option it is generally safer to pee in a bucket.

[ 11-07-2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[Tristan]

Doesn't everyone pee in the bilge?

[uncas]

David...Still owe you a trip...Have not forgotten...May have to make the deal a weekend instead of a day sail though.
Have finally taken Uncas to a real wooden boatyard in NE...Then again, that is not a bad place to sail.. Will probably bring him back to the Chesapeake next fall but have not decided...especially after the treatment I have gotten from the yards down here.
Again...have not forgotten... :D

[Bob Cleek]

Ah, yes, a well established nautical tradition. In the days of wooden ships and iron men, the bilge was more frequently used for such purposes than not. The ships of the line would carry hundreds of men (and a few women!), yet there were only four or six "seats of ease" in the head of the ship. Particularly in rough weather, nobody was about to drop their drawers and sit on a plank with a hole in it hanging over the bow! Consider yourself a true traditionalist!

[Alan D. Hyde]

Go down about three inches from the shoulder of an empty two litre plastic soda bottle.

Use your pocket knife to cut the bottle into two parts there, straight across (leave the little plastic lid on the top of the bottle).

The cut-off top of the bottle will now slide over the bottom, just like a big lid.

The arm that belongs to the hand that's holding the bottle can go around the mast; the other hand can be used for aiming. If you can't hit this target, then just throw an oar over your shoulder, and don't stop walking until you get far enough inland that nobody knows what that thing over your shoulder is... :D

Alan

[David W Pratt]

Similar, gallon plastic milk jug, cut hole above shoulder of a size appropriate to your membrum virile and you are (shall we say?) good to go.

[Paul G]

apparently a lot of dead yachtsmen are found with their flies undone i.e. pissing over the side and falling. On the other hand the stench of ripe urine maturing in the bilge might make me jump.... I vote for the bucket

[John B]

You know those hats with the beer cans and tubes leading to your mouth so you can watch sports and drink uninterrupted? You could sort of.... adapt that idea.....

but seriously, as mentioned above just get a bottle. My old sub captain (wwII) mate has a tin can he takes with him.

[Rick Tyler]

Snow camping I use a polyethelene 1-liter Nalgene as John suggests. It's pretty easy, although I have to use the wide-mouth bottle.

[emichaels]

Originally posted by david quillin:
I know, not the most romantic subject, but...

In bad weather I find I can avoid leaving the comfort of the cabin when nature calls by raising a deck hatch and peeing into the bilge (I have no head on board, so its this or go aft and pee over the side). I wonder what effects, if any, this has? I have a Hooper Island Draketail, a Chesapeake Bay workboat. It leaks like a sieve so there is a high turnover of the bilgewater.

Wooden Boat Magazine had a brief comment about urine being a good wood preservative. Is this just a myth, could it do anything bad to the wood?

Just wondering...Typical healthy male.....marking your territory.

[Kim Whitmyre]

On my 26' catamaran, the seats are cedar slats open to the water below, and the floor of the cockpit :eek: drains to the water. But I suspect that Alan and others suggestions would work a treat.

[ssor]

As to what effect it has on the wood. I once had to replace about three square fet of red oak flooring in a house because the old womam that lived there was too decrepit to take the dog outside so he lifted his leg on the door post. The floor boards shrank to about an inch and a half from 2 1/4 inches. It didn't smell like roses either. :rolleyes:

[Patrick Miller]

Am I missing something here? It didn't seem to me that David was asking for advice on how to pee, yet the overwhelming majority of replies (all except one) address the peeing and not the effect. If I read his post correctly he's asking for advice of the effect of urine on timber, and by extension I guess, on fastenings and other hardware.

I feel sure that if he was asking for advice on the effect of any other chemical on wood he wouldn't get all this stuff telling him how to avoid the two substances coming together.

I've noticed lots posts over the years that give some analysis of the interaction of substances with wood, say epoxy, linseed oil, varnish, water or paint. Where are the chemists when you need them?

When, how and where David chooses to relieve himself is his business. Let's get an answer that deals with his specific request.

[david quillin]

Alright Patrick, thanks for helping out. You have it exactly- what I am curious about is, is there anything to the comment in Wooden Boat that urine has a preservative effect? Is there anything to the idea alluded to above that it can promote corrosion?

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by ssor:
As to what effect it has on the wood. I once had to replace about three square fet of red oak flooring in a house because the old womam that lived there was too decrepit to take the dog outside so he lifted his leg on the door post. The floor boards shrank to about an inch and a half from 2 1/4 inches. It didn't smell like roses either. :rolleyes: This was likely the result of compression set -- where the wood tries to swell and can't, so the cells are permenantly crushed. I presume it then, finally, had time to fully dry out before you replaced it, no?

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I wouldn't think the amount of urine we're talking about here would make any difference at all to the boat.

[alienzdive]

Keep in touch, if ever we are parked in the same bay I will come over for #2.

[ssor]

Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ssor:
As to what effect it has on the wood. I once had to replace about three square fet of red oak flooring in a house because the old woman that lived there was too decrepit to take the dog outside so he lifted his leg on the door post. The floor boards shrank to about an inch and a half from 2 1/4 inches. It didn't smell like roses either. :rolleyes: This was likely the result of compression set -- where the wood tries to swell and can't, so the cells are permanently crushed. I presume it then, finally, had time to fully dry out before you replaced it, no?</font>[/QUOTE]No. It was pickled, destroyed, discolored, brittle, and barely resembled wood. Now bear in mind this was damage inflicted over the course of a couple of years with no bilge water for a flush. ;)

[ 11-07-2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[John Bell]

Originally posted by david quillin:
Alright Patrick, thanks for helping out. You have it exactly- what I am curious about is, is there anything to the comment in Wooden Boat that urine has a preservative effect? Is there anything to the idea alluded to above that it can promote corrosion?Urine is more than 90% water. The major subsituent of the remainder is urea.

Concentration (g/100 ml) in urine:

Water 95
Urea 2
Uric acid 0.03
Creatinine 0.1
Sodium 0.6
Potassium 0.15
Calcium 0.015
Magnesium 0.01
Chloride 0.6
Phosphate 0.12
Sulfate 0.18
Ammonia 0.05

There's nothing there in enough concentration to have any more effect than salt water on the wood or fastenings. Other than that we're usually sqeamish about our own emissions, urine isn't anything terrible or dangerous. Well, there is the smell...

I'll wager in example about the red oak flooring, the decay was probably more a result of moisture (so-called "dry rot") than pee-specific damage.

[ssor]

Originally posted by John Bell:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by david quillin:
Alright Patrick, thanks for helping out. You have it exactly- what I am curious about is, is there anything to the comment in Wooden Boat that urine has a preservative effect? Is there anything to the idea alluded to above that it can promote corrosion?Urine is more than 90% water. The major subsituent of the remainder is urea.

Concentration (g/100 ml) in urine:

Water 95
Urea 2
Uric acid 0.03
Creatinine 0.1
Sodium 0.6
Potassium 0.15
Calcium 0.015
Magnesium 0.01
Chloride 0.6
Phosphate 0.12
Sulfate 0.18
Ammonia 0.05

There's nothing there in enough concentration to have any more effect than salt water on the wood or fastenings. Other than that we're usually sqeamish about our own emissions, urine isn't anything terrible or dangerous. Well, there is the smell...

I'll wager in example about the red oak flooring, the decay was probably more a result of moisture (so-called "dry rot") than pee-specific damage.</font>[/QUOTE]Try not to discount the concentrating effects of evaporation. You may start out with 90% water but by the end of the day the water is gone and the salts remain. I have seen enough decay to recognize chemical degradation when I encounter it.

Edited to add:

Additionally I don't believe that the conditions present would have supported the growth of fungus.

[ 11-07-2005, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[John Bell]

Originally posted by ssor:
Try not to discount the concentrating effects of evaporation. You may start out with 90% water but by the end of the day the water is gone and the salts remain. Ah. Good point. Not relevant to the conditions in many bilges, but good point.
;)

[Mrleft8]

Regardless...... I still say: "Avoid asparagus"

[Dave Hadfield]

It won't make a damn bit of difference. Ever stabled horses? I shovelled piss and horse**** off the same wood floor of a standing stall for 10 years, as a kid.

The horse aged faster than the wood floor of the stall.

But it's safer and easier to piss in a bucket, or throw up in one, too (a different one, preferably!).

[Ian Marchuk]

Neither you nor your horse will allowed on my boat.....

[formerlyknownasprince]

I've heard it said that planes used to transport racehorses have a shorter life than most...

[uncas]

Perhaps because the engine horsepower diminishes when you take the four footed beasts out of the plane...Hence more stress...more fatigue...

Based on this thread...and the direction its going...David...I would say that peeing in the bilge really has little long term effects...And as you say, the bilge pump is often quite active due to leaks...The only thing I can think of is that you may have to replace the pump more often...and perhaps install a bigger one...

[Canoeyawl]

Do you know anyone that works in a hospital?
http://www.kaycoindia.com/general-item/gifs/urinal-polyproply.jpg
These make a good heavy weather kit.
Peeing in your boat is akin to peeing in your bed…it’s fine if you are alone - but others may find it offensive, YUK!

[ssor]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Hadfield:
[QB]It won't make a damn bit of difference. Ever stabled horses? I shovelled piss and horse**** off the same wood floor of a standing stall for 10 years, as a kid.

The point is you removed the stuff. Had you left it there to soak in and dry, things might have worked out differently.

[ 11-08-2005, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: ssor ]

[Gary E]

I dont think I want to know where he plans on taking a dump...

[Paul Pless]

I feel sure that if he was asking for advice on the effect of any other chemical on wood he wouldn't get all this stuff telling him how to avoid the two substances coming together.
I don't know, have you ever read any of Cleek's advice regarding epoxy and wood. ;)

[Bob Cleek]

LOL... Maybe somebody ought to ask Steve Smith if CPES will prevent piss from soaking into a bilge! Actually, I bet it would, but then again, I use the "duck" pictured above myself. WasteMarine should carry them. No singlehander should be without one. Unfortunately, they don't, but you can usually scare one up from anybody that works in a hospital (or rip one off from a sick friend's nightstand when you go to visit!)

[landlocked sailor]

They sell unisex urinals (yes, girls can use them too!) at any pharmacy or home health store. Rick

[ssor]

The old B-25 bombers had a relief tube that consisted of a funnel and a length of hose. Hose went out the side and there was a hanger for the funnel.

[Thorne]

Bob -- That is an entirely different Smith & Co. product, only sold out of the back door of that aluminum barn they inhabit.

It is called CPSS, and is MUCH cheaper than the CPES sold out the front...

(Smith's Cloudy Penetrating Smelly Sealer -- collected from boatyard worker's plastic privies)

;- )

[ 11-08-2005, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[skuthorp]

I printed this thread out to show SWMBO, we got the giggles as I have fallen out of my Macgreggor attempting same (I should have used the bailer) I was well off shore but Anne was watching through the telescope! :D

[doorstop]

Jeff, it must have been all that weight hanging over the side!! :D

[Puka]

David, I don't think it is a good idead. Pissing in the bilge is only of any value if executed by female virgin, and the crew are superstitious.
Hell tho, I'm superstitious when the barometers falling.

[JimConlin]

There are more private and high-tech solutions, like the Stadium Pal (http://www.biorelief.com/store/stadiumpal.html)

[Mrleft8]

Why don't you just lob your hooha over yer shoulder and out past the rail like I do? :D ;)

[Lucky Luke]

The number of subjects analysed here quite amazes me :eek:

Pissing in the bilge? Well, I quite often get pissed off when reading the posts there, and quite like the idea of pissing onto someone's head there, from time to time :D

Still, I am curious: do you sail in company or "single-handed" (I don't mean one hand holding a shroud and the other.... :rolleyes: )?

[Bob Cleek]

Well, thanks to the History Channel or some such, I think I have the answer to the original question, "Does pee in the bilge hurt anything?" It seems the ancient Egyptians made their white and red paint pigments out of lead oxide. This is how it was done for the next five thousand years or so. Now, the way they produced lead oxide was to take lead strips or shavings and put them in a container with some vinegar and then bury the whole thing in a pile of manure. The vinegar and manure created fumes that oxidized the lead, leaving the pigment oxide powder. I'd say vinegar and manure are pretty close to piss... You'd think, then that peeing in the bilge might oxidize your lead keel if it got to it. (Like if your ballast keel is the strutural keel, like many of LFH's designs.) Probably does the same to copper. :D

[John B]

since we're getting into history and somewhat related,I suppose we could move on to the bating process ( leather , that is)

a C and P ( shame)
PUREFINDER - old women and young girls who went about the streets gathering dog droppings which were used for tanning leather
Purefinder ⁄ Pure gatherer:- Old women and young girls who collected dog droppings for use in the tanning industry. Dog droppings were used in the tanning leather for the glove industry, apparently the white variety was the best kind and was reserved for making kid leather! Dog dung contains pancreatic enzymes which were used in solution to attack the non-collagenous proteins in skins or hides. This was a purifying, rather than a curing step, to clean the material prior to tanning. This also means that biotechnology has been used in the leather industry for at least 5000 years. Treating skins with dog dung was always called "puering", and the use of infusions of bird guano was called "mastering". Happily, the dung treatment is now obsolete, and nowadays the same general process is called "bating", and typically involves manufactured bacterial or pancreatic enzymes.

[seo]

Isn't urine just a salty ammonia solution? If you look at it objectively being around a bilge that someone peed in is probably less likely to cause disease than being in a wheelhouse that the same person has been breathing in. But that doesn't offer as many opportunities for drollery.
On ships and tugs and big fishing boats the engineers usually pee in the bilges. On research vessels they tend to climb up to the bathroom. I never heard of anyone peeing in a bucket or bottle because then you'd have to climb up the engineroom ladders carrying a pisspot.
It's probably better not to ask where the guy in the wheelhouse of a tug goes to pee. He's almost invariably up there by himself, and many older tugs don't have autopilots, but they do have convenient doors out onto the texas deck.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Some of us can just stand up in the cockpit and lower it over the side. :D :D :D

[Rick Tyler]

Originally posted by Peter Malcolm Jardine:
Some of us can just stand up in the cockpit and lower it over the side.Two guys relieving themselves on a bridge:

Drunk #1: The water sure is cold tonight.

Drunk #2: And the river bottom is really muddy, too.

Thank you, thank you. Tell your friends, I'll be here all week.

[Mark Van]

Laundry detergent bottles are perfect, take out the inner spout, which makes a big enough openning, then you can put the lid on and empty it later.

[StevenBauer]

Rick, I know that one this way:

Three guys relieving themselves on a bridge:

Drunk #1: Wow this bridge is tall.

Drunk #2: And this water is cold, too.

Drunk #3: And, man, is it deep!

[neptoon]

so...what do you do on the poop deck.?

[David Geiss]

I was told by a native kayak builder to soak bending stock for ribs in urine enriched water before steaming :eek:

[Alan D. Hyde]

Historically, Inuit women washed their hair in urine.

Alan

[Bill Berrisford]

I think many of you would be surprised at the large number of drowning victims that are found with their fly zippers down.

[James River Rat]

Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:
Historically, Inuit women washed their hair in urine.

AlanHey at least it is a warm shower....

Got to have a funk about you after awhile!

I crewed with a guy who did the OSTAR races. he joked the only time his toes were warm for days on end was when he peed in his foulies and it went into his seaboots.

EEEWWWW

[Bob Cleek]

Well, Alan, I guess that's why Eskimo men are said to happily share their wives with guests! Thanks, but no thanks, Nanook!

[ken.bryant]

A story from still smaller boats: On a kayaking trip I climbed onto a very small island to pee, fell and and slid down the rock, punched a barnacle-hole into my hand, and ended up in an ER when it got infected. As she pumped antibiotic into my arm and heard my story, the ER nurse introduced me to a thing called a "condom catheter", designed for incontinent patients but also recommended for impatient mariners.