Splining seams on mast

[Steveh]

Have a solid 12M oregon mast glued together with resorcinol. The gluing was not clamped and is now delaminating before it has been stepped in the boat.

Plan is to cut a wedge shaped groove down the seams (up to the spreader band) about 1 1/2" deep and epoxy glue in a spline. The top has mast bands fitted and looks OK there.

I am after the easiest fix at this point in time and am thinking this is it. The cast band fittings have been fixed already and don't want to remove and cut the mast completely in half to re glue.

Am I looking for trouble here?

[Dan McCosh]

Have a solid 12M oregon mast glued together with resorcinol. The gluing was not clamped and is now delaminating before it has been stepped in the boat.

Plan is to cut a wedge shaped groove down the seams (up to the spreader band) about 1 1/2" deep and epoxy glue in a spline. The top has mast bands fitted and looks OK there.

I am after the easiest fix at this point in time and am thinking this is it. The cast band fittings have been fixed already and don't want to remove and cut the mast completely in half to re glue.

Am I looking for trouble here?

I would think so. If the glue joint is already failing, the fix you suggest is strictly cosmetic, and the mast is likely to fail under load. I once took a boom with such a couple of split seams showing, an qu broke it apart in a couple of minutes with a chisel into four planks. Then I reglued it properly, after planing off the gluing faces.

[Steveh]

Thanks Don, The idea is to cut out the glue edge and if the mast was hollow it would have a 1 1/5" approx wall thickness anyway. Could always cut deeper.

[Jay Greer]

Grain orientation is critical on a solid glued up spar. Wood should be quarter sawn in order to avoid cup rolling of the glue joints. West system makes a flexible epoxy that is suitable for spar glue ups. And does not require the clamp pressure associated with resourcinol.
Jay

[peter radclyffe]

Have a solid 12M oregon mast glued together with resorcinol. The gluing was not clamped and is now delaminating before it has been stepped in the boat.

Plan is to cut a wedge shaped groove down the seams (up to the spreader band) about 1 1/2" deep and epoxy glue in a spline. The top has mast bands fitted and looks OK there.

I am after the easiest fix at this point in time and am thinking this is it. The cast band fittings have been fixed already and don't want to remove and cut the mast completely in half to re glue.

Am I looking for trouble here?
why was it not clamped, your problems may have only just begun, if you rush it now, a mast takes more stress than anything on a boat, apart from the owner, of course, it has to be made properly,

[ishmael]

Not quite clear what is going on here. 12m. What does that mean?

[Captain Intrepid]

Not quite clear what is going on here. 12m. What does that mean?

12 metre. It's the standard international unit of measurement. Has been for a good long while. There's a couple wee countries that haven't adopted it except in scientific circles, but no one gives em much heed.

[Ian McColgin]

I think it could work if you use the splines to essentially make new glue seams. I don't think I'd bother with a fussy V shape. Just use a narrow router for a parallel sided slot, slather the epoxy and tap the spline in. The splines need not go all the way to the depths of the mast's core, but should go perhaps a half radius in for each seam. So long as the outside stays together the mast will hold.

You may want to fabricate another hoop or two - one could be used to hold up the gooseneck and another down by the butt. I got pretty easy to make hoops out of iron bands that bolted on - each half was almost a semi-circle to fit its part of the mast, ending in a 90 degree end tang on each half drilled to accept a bolt on each side.

G'luck

[py]

Do it right or make a new one when this one fails under load.

[peter radclyffe]

Have a solid 12M oregon mast glued together with resorcinol. The gluing was not clamped and is now delaminating before it has been stepped in the boat.

Plan is to cut a wedge shaped groove down the seams (up to the spreader band) about 1 1/2" deep and epoxy glue in a spline. The top has mast bands fitted and looks OK there.

I am after the easiest fix at this point in time and am thinking this is it. The cast band fittings have been fixed already and don't want to remove and cut the mast completely in half to re glue.

Am I looking for trouble here?rescorcinal requires almost perfect joints, think of finish joinery on all the parts you cant see, but the gap filling properties of epoxy mean anyone can be a boatbuilder, we live in times of great change, where epoxy has replaced skill, most workers dont need to build without epoxy, and they dont want to learn how to , the last people who can build fine yachts without epoxy may never be seen again, blah, blah, but enough of all that

[Larks]

Steve, what is going to require more work - splining the failed joins or taking it apart and regluing with the West System that Jay mentioned?

And of those two which will you feel more confident with the result?

[Steveh]

Thanks for the reply's everyone. I've just returned from up at the boat and cutting the first slot. Unfortunately I forgot the camera but will take pics tomorrow.

Also now I have a tad more time I'll explain things. The mast was glued together by a shipwright so I thought he new what he was doing. First raised eyebrows was when I first saw the glued spar. He had already cut small slots and glued in spiles here and there where the glue joints were suspect. At the very top I could see through the seams. Weights (car size batteries) were used to apply weight for the glue process. I don't know why clamps were not used and was not told. The two halves appear not to have a really good clean flat bonding surface in the areas that have failed. Having cut down the first half I exposed the glue joint that appears to be dry and fluffy. Photo will show. Looks like the glue had set before bonding or had not been mixed properly. Although all this sounds like a basket case other parts that do have a fine glue joint seem fine and the prospect of completely redoing is just not going to happen now.

The reason for not cutting the whole mast in half and re gluing is that the mast bands have already been fitted with bonding glue to seat them in their respective places. Also I'm theorizing these will prevent the mast from delaminating anyway.

My only thought at this conjecture is why the mast suddenly let go like that.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3354/3588630410_63a4b699fc.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3598/3441404066_ee9326eece.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3613/3440590393_2bec85987b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3396/3441368974_6739d5d6fc.jpg

The remedy? I am cutting a skill saw slot to a depth of 40mm (1.5+ inches) then another cut with 5º angle to create a fine V on each side. The mast is 150mm (6 inches) diameter. This will give me a new glue joint over 50% of the diameter. From the spreader to the deck is about 7metres (22 feet). The V shape will allow for the spline to be fitted snugly rather than fitting a straight spline that could remove glue as I try to fit to the full depth. Will use West System glue.

I can't recall Jay saying he would use West System Larks but I feel this is the best remedy at this point in time. That is of course 'time and money' I just need to get the boat in the water.
Peter, we've done this restoration using old methods but am now reverting to modern glues. Originally the mast would have been solid one piece.

Will post photos tomorrow of how I've set up the jig for the cut.

[Larks]

All the best with it Steve, Jay's reference to WS was up in post #4 but it sounds like you have that under control anyway. It certainly is a bloody shame that you have to spend your time going back over this instead of getting into the rest of your jobs though.

[Steveh]

Sorry Larks, getting the Jays mixed up. Bit slow on the uptake there. Does sound like the gluing option.

[Ian McColgin]

There is much that is unfamiliar to my eye and perhaps what I see as trouble is not, but is rather acceptable practice with which I happen to be unfamiliar but:

The cranse irons (hoops) look unsecured and incorrectly made but the photo may not reveal all. If you want those things to stay up against the down-pressure of the rigging, their insides need to be tapered to the mast's taper. Then they are better made in bronze of black iron so they can be stretched a haird by heat and shrunk in place.

You sometimes can get away with some screws through the irons but the screw pattern is grossly inferior to the proper pattern for a tang in line with the mast. The iron will deflect down and eventually fail.

As, I discovered, did Marmalade's.

The irons will NOT stay in place if just sholdered into the wood below. Rather, they will crush the grain and let rot start.

As an aside, the spreader design looks positively bizarre in an agricultural manner. Perhaps your sparmaker is at heart really a farmer.

I don't know what I'd do if someone did a job like this appears to me but it would start with a stop payment and probably carry one to litigation.

I really hope I'm wrong here but it's time for a proper surveyor.

G'luck

[peter radclyffe]

Thanks for the reply's everyone. I've just returned from up at the boat and cutting the first slot. Unfortunately I forgot the camera but will take pics tomorrow.

Also now I have a tad more time I'll explain things. The mast was glued together by a shipwright so I thought he new what he was doing. First raised eyebrows was when I first saw the glued spar. He had already cut small slots and glued in spiles here and there where the glue joints were suspect. At the very top I could see through the seams. Weights (car size batteries) were used to apply weight for the glue process. I don't know why clamps were not used and was not told. The two halves appear not to have a really good clean flat bonding surface in the areas that have failed. Having cut down the first half I exposed the glue joint that appears to be dry and fluffy. Photo will show. Looks like the glue had set before bonding or had not been mixed properly. Although all this sounds like a basket case other parts that do have a fine glue joint seem fine and the prospect of completely redoing is just not going to happen now.

The reason for not cutting the whole mast in half and re gluing is that the mast bands have already been fitted with bonding glue to seat them in their respective places. Also I'm theorizing these will prevent the mast from delaminating anyway.

My only thought at this conjecture is why the mast suddenly let go like that.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3354/3588630410_63a4b699fc.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3598/3441404066_ee9326eece.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3613/3440590393_2bec85987b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3396/3441368974_6739d5d6fc.jpg

The remedy? I am cutting a skill saw slot to a depth of 40mm (1.5+ inches) then another cut with 5º angle to create a fine V on each side. The mast is 150mm (6 inches) diameter. This will give me a new glue joint over 50% of the diameter. From the spreader to the deck is about 7metres (22 feet). The V shape will allow for the spline to be fitted snugly rather than fitting a straight spline that could remove glue as I try to fit to the full depth. Will use West System glue.

I can't recall Jay saying he would use West System Larks but I feel this is the best remedy at this point in time. That is of course 'time and money' I just need to get the boat in the water.
Peter, we've done this restoration using old methods but am now reverting to modern glues. Originally the mast would have been solid one piece.

Will post photos tomorrow of how I've set up the jig for the cut.
are you working to a new design, or have you copied the old fittings, how old is the boat,

[Bill Mercer]

There is much that is unfamiliar to my eye and perhaps what I see as trouble is not, but is rather acceptable practice with which I happen to be unfamiliar but:

The cranse irons (hoops) look unsecured and incorrectly made but the photo may not reveal all. If you want those things to stay up against the down-pressure of the rigging, their insides need to be tapered to the mast's taper. Then they are better made in bronze of black iron so they can be stretched a haird by heat and shrunk in place.

. . .

G'luck

From the post with the mast pictures, it sounds like the irons were glued on somehow--hopefully not by the guy who didn't joint the mast staves before gluing with resorcinal and no pressure! Interesting to see how that holds up.

[John B]

The boat is a 1903 or 02 Bailey called Ngatira. She's about the size of an early 8M boat, a contemporary of Waione ( Waione is a tad later at 07)

Thread here

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84324&highlight=ngatira

That spreader design was common around the turn of the century for gaff rig yachts of that size here and therefore ( no doubt) the UK as well, although normally wrought iron , not bronze. The mast bands were normally bedded down on some leather, maybe Steve has decided to use a modern bedding compound there?

[Steveh]

Ian and Peter, you may like to take a look at the thread below on Ngatira to see what I'm doing to. Thanks for the url too John.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84324&highlight=ngatira

She was built in 1904, and the ethos of the restoration was to be traditional in the rebuild. But as I've stated, not wholly traditional but with some modern accruements. Engine, head, synthetic ropes and sails to list a few.

A difficulty I had with the course tutor/shipwright on occasions were the methods used in NZ at that time. He being Australian and USA trained had difficulty coming too terms with how things were done 'the New Zealand way'. I just can't accept the mast though.

Ian the bands are stepped on a 10-8mm foot but not tappered as such, and the spreader design are standard methods for the time. But most mast fittings were forged iron at the turn of the century with the gooseneck fittings bronze as with deck fittings. I will get round to trimming the threads off the spreader band before it goes up.

Peter I have studied excellent photos of Ngatira for reference from around 1910-1920 and have based some of these designs from a similar sized boat, but a Logan also John's Waione and another Bailey 'Prize' Although I have modified the mast band in the bottom photo (above) to take the running backstays as well as the middle gaff block.

Chas Bailey, designer/builder had a brother with a forge next door and I imagine did all his boat fittings. Unfortunately this was his undoing as the forge caught fire and burnt down the Bailey boat yard too. This happened twice, but am not sure what caused the second fire.

Here's the photos from todays effort.

The worst of the delaminating.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3338/3591077543_84eaacf3c2.jpg

Jig set up. The cut was 40mm deep straight down on one side and the tapper at 5º for the opposite face.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3362/3591077759_009fb1e094.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3627/3591077311_981d5e2c36.jpg

The worst of the glue job. And at the top end the faces weren't even touching.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3396/3591884896_8035d5d9f2.jpg

The glue joint just below the spreaders. Jay had already cut in a spline but only to a depth of about 10mm (3/8") at most. Had to cut a wider spline joint to get rid of this lot.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3650/3591885176_e34bbd1e9d.jpg

The glue appears to have set prior to weighting or from not having being clamped.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2482/3591077649_1758fbc22d.jpg

[peter radclyffe]

Ian and Peter, you may like to take a look at the thread below on Ngatira to see what I'm doing to. Thanks for the url too John.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84324&highlight=ngatira

She was built in 1904, and the ethos of the restoration was to be traditional in the rebuild. But as I've stated, not wholly traditional but with some modern accruements. Engine, head, synthetic ropes and sails to list a few.

A difficulty I had with the course tutor/shipwright on occasions were the methods used in NZ at that time. He being Australian and USA trained had difficulty coming too terms with how things were done 'the New Zealand way'. I just can't accept the mast though.

Ian the bands are stepped on a 10-8mm foot but not tappered as such, and the spreader design are standard methods for the time. But most mast fittings were forged iron at the turn of the century with the gooseneck fittings bronze as with deck fittings. I will get round to trimming the threads off the spreader band before it goes up.

Peter I have studied excellent photos of Ngatira for reference from around 1910-1920 and have based some of these designs from a similar sized boat, but a Logan also John's Waione and another Bailey 'Prize' Although I have modified the mast band in the bottom photo (above) to take the running backstays as well as the middle gaff block.

Chas Bailey, designer/builder had a brother with a forge next door and I imagine did all his boat fittings. Unfortunately this was his undoing as the forge caught fire and burnt down the Bailey boat yard too. This happened twice, but am not sure what caused the second fire.

Here's the photos from todays effort.

The worst of the delaminating.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3338/3591077543_84eaacf3c2.jpg

Jig set up. The cut was 40mm deep straight down on one side and the tapper at 5º for the opposite face.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3362/3591077759_009fb1e094.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3627/3591077311_981d5e2c36.jpg

The worst of the glue job. And at the top end the faces weren't even touching.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3396/3591884896_8035d5d9f2.jpg

The glue joint just below the spreaders. Jay had already cut in a spline but only to a depth of about 10mm (3/8") at most. Had to cut a wider spline joint to get rid of this lot.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3650/3591885176_e34bbd1e9d.jpg

The glue appears to have set prior to weighting or from not having being clamped.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2482/3591077649_1758fbc22d.jpg
i looked at your restoration posts,its fantasitc what youve all done

[Ian McColgin]

The splining is just fine. Goblin's 65 year old masts had places of stress induced splitting adjacent to the glue lines. The glue joints themselves were fantastic and the glue surface was incredible - a sort of bead and cove over the middle 50% of the wall thickness (hollow masts) and normal to the surface at the inner and outer 25%'s. Anyway, different problem but same fix except I used a narrow chisel as the blade I set into a homemade router plane.

I remain suspicious of the bands. Even though the down-stresses of the rigging may not be so severe as the radical stress of a catboat's head stay, they are more than you'd think. When Goblin had a conventional marconi main and gaff fore schooner rig, a band on the main mast took a horizontal triadic straight across to the foremast truck. When she was rerigged as a staysail schooner (a horrible mistake in my opinion and among other things the fore mast spent 20 years set in backwards and looking odd as the taper had been taken along the top fathom or so on the fore and latterally so it looked odd and could not be corrected by headstay pressure till I figured that out, but I digress) . . . Back to rerigging - that hoop was used to hang the mainstaysail. This was not a huge sail and was not all that stressed. The running backs were loaded only enough to eliminate pumping and there was always a little curve to the luff in Fresh Breeze (Force 5, maybe 20 knots) or more. This fitting was nicely forged and tapered but with all stress down on the foreward face, it had slumped into the wood a bit. With the supervision of a local black smith, I forged a new hoop with an elliptical section that sloped about the way a sholdered soft eye might. For the hoops I made that held up shrouds, I made them as described earlier, leaving enough space between the two halves that the upper eye staylocks could hang on the connecting bolts. With the side to side strain not really balanced as it falls on the weather side, but at least alternating, the hoops stayed in place just fine due to tension and mast taper. Now screws into the wood.

When I rebuilt the masts by the way, I had a chance to look at a variety of beddings from the original leather through various goops and glops including epoxy. There is no question that for hoops set by pressure against a mast's taper, leather is far and away the best. I saw no damage under the original hoops and leathers that I removed to connect some of the splits above and below. Under all the others were both physical wood damage and rot.

Glad to know that the spreaders at least have the authority of having been done before. I'd have made rod spreaders from a hinge on the side to give some fore and aft slap and reduce fatigue but perhaps this rig does not move as much as I'm used to.

G'luck