Estimating Building Costs Using Traditional Methods

[LFH Fan]

Is there any general rule of thumb or rough formula that might allow estimating the cost of building a traditional boat using good to excellent quality material? Assuming Rozinante type canoe yawl hull forms, I am trying to estimate costs for the following four hulls (the assumption is all gear and systems simple, quality of material very good):

Rozinante, displacement 6600
similar hull form scaled up for cruising to a displacement of 14,570
similar hull form scaled up for cruising to a displacement of 21,360
LF Herreshoffs restricted sail area cruiser, a similar hull form scaled up to a displacement of 30,400
Lastly, what sort of costs would one expect in having plans drafted for new designs for #s 2 and 3 and for having complete plans for #4 (as I do not think there are complete plans for #4)?

Thanks for any input, comments and ideas.

Regards,

LFH Fan

[Chris Coose]

Tell me why you would scale up to such dimensions when you could choose (even from the LFH catalog) similar hull designs that have been worked out and built in the original idea?
I'm not sure LFH would be too tickled.

[KMacDonald]

20K+ a ton

[rbgarr]

Are you asking about materials cost only or materials plus labor?

The $20+k per ton is about $10 per pound for materials alone. I have trouble thinking of many parts of a boat that cost that little. Paint maybe?

[LFH Fan]

Chris,

Thanks for taking a moment to respond. Fair questions. My reply:

The largest of the three hulls I list is in fact the L Francis designed "restricted sail area cruiser" of 55' overall and 44' LWL. While he has other double enders in his portfolio of designs none are of the same hull form as Roz and the restricted sail area cruiser. Dulcinea is perhaps the closest but a study of the lines shows a divergence in form (note the forefoot, the greater flare forward and aft, the notably increased displacement to length, etc.). The similarities of the likes Diddikai and Wagon Box are much reduced beyond the fact that they are both handsome double ended ketches with well distributed sails. Note the great flare in the quarters, also more exagerated in the bow. Note further the outboard rudder hung off the straight stern posts. And again the increased displacement of the hull form. These but to name the most obvious. This is not to dimish these designs in any way. They are simply noticeably different hull forms.

I have owned a Rozinante and think her about as good a boat as I have ever set foot upon; and for a number of reasons. I would add that the design criteria for Rozinante was such that she was not supposed to be your standard cruising boat. The oars speak right to that. And by the way, she rows well (for a 6600 pound vessel with a single oar) and tires you not. And if she does tire you you could probably use the extra workout! Yet her performance (and I mean by that all the various aspects of seaworthiness, speed, maneuverability, effectiveness in a wide range of wind and sea conditions, ease of handling, comfort, etc.) as hinted at in her lines is applicable to larger vessels. And if you go back to his earlier design of the restricted sail area cruiser - and compare the two hull forms - the similarities are accute. Comparing the lines of the other LFH designs noted above to Rozinante and then comparing the restricted sail area cruiser to Rozinante is a real eye opener. And maybe it is a good exercise for people like me who want to know more about designs and hull forms. Certainly I would love the chance to sit down over dinner and drinks and a pipe with a table full of others to discuss and argue over one point and another.

In any case I believe the restricted sail area cruiser illustrates that LFH felt that this was an effective hull form for boats of other sizes than the Rozinante. Or said chronologically, Rozinante illustrates LFH felt this hull form would work in a smaller size.

There is no doubt that Mr. Herreshoff, had he decided to design intermediate sized vessels to this particular hull form, would have had strong reasons for the details of those designs. Here, the criteria include increasing the size of the Rozinante to accomodate longer cruises by more than one person and to increase her LWL to allow for a wider cruising range for a given amount of time. It calls for a decrease in the size of the restricted sail area cruiser to allow for greater ease of single handing even by someone of increasing years. The reduction in size also comes with a reduction in price; something Mr. Herreshoff would have been all for.

So I do not believe that my imagination here is something Mr Herreshoff would have had a problem with. If he had lived much longer I expect he would have designed more vessels; perhaps even considering an intermediate design to this form.

I would love to hear other thoughts, responses to this line of thinking and of course anyone who might be able to shed light on the original questions.

Regards

LFH Fan

[LFH Fan]

I am asking materials plus labor: the cost of taking a design and ending with a vessel sliding down the ways. The follow up question asked about the cost of creating the design. My misfortune not to be able to approach LFH.

LFH Fan

[Dave Lesser]

Rozinante was part of the the inspiration for this 40' Paul Gartside design. Plans are $CAD 850.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail5.php#40yawl

[LFH Fan]

Dave,

And that was not the only very nice design on the page. Each of them are interesting and attractive. A Westsail was the first boat I fell in love with and though it is not my favorite design I still like some of the better Colin Archer types as one of the group on that page was.

The Rozinante inspired vessel is a nice one. Thanks for including it. Have you ever come across any of his boats on the water?

Regards

[Dave Lesser]

I've been aboard these two, but just at the dock, not under sail:

http://www.gartsideboats.com/surprise.php

http://www.gartsideboats.com/gallery.php

[rbgarr]

Here is a 26' Herreshoff type, relatively simple Chuck Paine design from 2005, $128k asking price for a three ton boat or $40+K per ton. I'm guessing the original owner may have paid even more to have her built. http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1655505&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=4104&url=

On the upper end of the scale is a Legendary Yachts 2001 Herreshoff ketch at 25 tons and asking $900K, which is closer to that $20k per ton figure. http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatFullDetails.jsp?boat_id=1967858&ybw=&units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=50186&url=
Could you get a new boat for that price now? I don't know.

[Lucky Luke]

Rozinante was part of the the inspiration for this 40' Paul Gartside design. Plans are $CAD 850.


Dave: the question is "to have plans drafted", NOT off the shelf.

To do the first overview of a new design (or modified, which is the same work) will take two days. To produce the first set of preliminary drawings another two =four, then check all that and rectify= a fifth day, to refine the final line plan+ general drawing= one day with modern software= six days. Sail plan, rigging calculations and design, rudder design, deck plan, basic construction plan= two days more: that is a bare minimum= total eight working days. With the discussions with client, some administrative works that all design offices have, a follow-up of some current construction, you will actually have taken two weeks.

=1,700$CAD/ month!!!

With civil liability insurance, personal insurance, income (which income(?) tax, office expenses, software and computer continuous updating, aso....: better grab your fishing rod, lit you pipe, and let the dreamers dream that you will work for less than nothing!

Sorry folks, but I feel really annoyed by this continual confusion between stock plans and custom design. Also by this focus on the cost of these plans. If anyone is seriously intending to have a boat built to his specifications, he will have to realise that these plans will be a small fraction of the overall cost, and that what he will receive will be well worth what he has paid for. If he wants a copy of an existing drawing: the author will be happy to charge 850 $ for half an hour discussion and copy five sheets of paper every time one walks into his office!

Now, to answer to the questions asked:
Price of construction, materials plus labor: it used to be the price of butter, from the best to most ordinary quality, for a long time! No joke: that was a reliable figure! Nowadays, it is about ten times that, meaning some 40$/pound, or 80K$/ ton (if you accept we go for metric). Sad reality (including for the farmers!).
Then, count 8 to 10% of construction price for custom design, all included, and 3 to 4% if a near copy of existing one, no supervision.

Anybody realises that a broker will take 10% on a sale ???....!!!!!!!!!!

[Dave Lesser]

Luke,

I commissioned that design, which is the result of 2 years of back and forth between myself and Mr Gartside. There were six sets of preliminary sketches before the working drawings were completed. I mentioned it on this thread as an example of a larger cruiser that has some design philosoply in common with Rozinante. Mr Gartside retains the rights to the plans, and has added them to his stock catalog. Those plans could be submitted to builders to get cost estimates for option #3 in LFH Fan's initial post.

[Chris Coose]

Can't you take one of those fancy copy machines and just hit the enlarge button?

[LFH Fan]

Lucky,

Thank you for the contribution and insights. I would add that my asking about cost of plans for a new design is not meant to be disrespectful but merely practical. How embarrasing if one were to budget for a boat and come up short because they did not account of the particulars of all the work.

Your post is very helpful. Thanks much.

Russ

[Tom M.]

I would add that my asking about cost of plans for a new design is not meant to be disrespectful but merely practical. How embarrasing if one were to budget for a boat and come up short because they did not account of the particulars of all the work.


The most practical thing you can do is talk to a builder or designer, not a bunch of WBF yahoos. Trust me. Choose a builder or designer and be willing to pay for a consultation.

[mmd]

I have done design work on LFH designs to recreate his designs for new building methods and materials (google "Catriona"). It is fussy work. With due respect to Lucky Luke (whose work I have seen gracing this Forum and have highest admiration for), I think that his timeline to create a new Herreshoff-based design is optimistic. For a first-pass, preliminary design to use as a talking-point tool for discussions with the client, he's pretty much on the money, but to get to the point of having adequate drawings for the builder to work from and a design that the client is happy with takes a fair bit longer. Of course, this also depends on the client - some are happy to have the designer make most of the decisions, some want to be involved every step of the way. As a humourous comment on this, I've always liked the sign I saw in a motorcycle shop:

Our Rates:

$30.00 per hour
$45.00 per hour if you watch
$75.00 per hour if you help

As I have said on another thread, talk is cheap - I don't charge to talk about boats. The clock starts ticking when I have to draw or calculate or give official advice.

[peter radclyffe]

The most practical thing you can do is talk to a builder or designer, not a bunch of WBF yahoos. Trust me. Choose a builder or designer and be willing to pay for a consultation.
not of course that any of us are builders or designers

[LFH Fan]

Dave,

Care to share anything about the sailing qualities of the boat Paul did with you?

Regards

[Dave Lesser]

Russ,

I'll be glad to as soon as I get her built. Hoping to start in September. It will be a couple of years before she's in the water.

[paladin]

A boat built to Herreshoff standards......or Lyle Hess specs, or those of Al Mason....in the 40-41 foot class fine quality finish and materials, ready to sail less personal nav gear and supplies is a million dollar project...a 36-38 foot medium displacement boat, yacht finish with basic engine, no sails/spars, but tanks, no refrigeration or galley stove, is a 250K-300K in the water project.

[rbgarr]

Here's a partially finished Araminta hull for sale, and rule of thumb (perhaps outdated) is that the hull is 1/3 of the cost (and time?) investment.

She's a daysailer or weekender type, not designed as a liveaboard, long distance boat:
http://tinyurl.com/kjhmx6